routine and material. see you tomorrow morning at 6 a.m. >> clayton: would it be obnoxious if i started drinking coffee out of this? >> want to get the red white and blue back on top? give more green and spend more green? president obama calling for economic patriotism on the campaign trail, including calling for higher taxes on the rich and new spending plans and it comes as we find out the economy's slowing, and someone here says the economic patriotism will only cause this number to keep growing. and take the economy down for good. are they right? hi, everyone, i'm brenda buttner, this is bulls and bears, here are the bulls and bears, gary b smith, tobin smith.

jonas max ferris. and welcome everybody. gary b, is economic patriotism exactly what the economy needs? >> well, not this version of economic patriotism. you know, i think this plan is going to do a lot more harm than good, brenda, especially to the country's bottom line. look, i went through the plan, obama's plan. i went through his tv commercial, three things jumped out that just didn't make any sense, one, he wants to-- one, he wants to cut tax breaks or companies that outsource. when companies outsource the net effect is to create more jobs that were here. people were able to buy goods cheaper because companies are able to make the goods cheaper and buy goods cheaper and spend more money in other sectors, two the other they think he wants to do, he wanted to invest in education and training programs. that's all well and good, brenda and we know that's going to cost millions and millions of dollars, but that's not how the economy works. >> gary b, it's spending more, what does that do to the debt? >> well, brenda, he tries to

get up, up, up. when i went to work for ibm 30-odd years ago, the government didn't teach me how computers work. bem caught me. rockefeller's oil company taught people how to drill for oil and gas and the third thing that strikes me that's not going to work. he wants to double manufacturing jobs, increase manufacturing jobs, that's fine, but why does the manufacturing get the benefit of government largest, why not the financial sector, oil and gas, all of this stuff drives the debt sky high and we know that the government can't spend money efficiently, it's just wrong. >> and jonas, there are also some tax hikes here, and wouldn't that do something to decrease the deficit? >> yes, it's the only specific tax increase that-- of both candidates and if you would close the deficit and turn some of the tacks to the higher levels, and the revenues for the government, revenue enhancement. however, to cost patriotism to say a small fraction of the

country will have an extra tax burden, everybody has to pay more taxes, in fact, if you combine the tax proposals of mitt romney and president obama, together you would have a patriotic plan where you're removing some of the benefits of the lower people the last 10, 15 years and then, we would have higher revenues cross the board and that would lower the deficit the most, and the other things in this that are not particularly patriotic. a lot of the obama proposals think there's a small group that can fix the problems. the thing with the car thing, we all have to pay a higher gas tax and help the deficit, and have the cars making 80 miles per hour and we're the ones driving far. >> you say you want to wave the flag for patriotism, you say there's something to it? >> yeah, sure, first of all, you've got to give the guy a nod. here is a guy that the right wing loons have been calling manchurian candidate from kenya the last four years and

kind of amusing to watch him waving old glory in their faces, but i will share some, something-- >> yeah, how amusing is it to see our debt go higher? >> oh, well, i'm not sure that either of these candidates has taken anything terribly serious about the debt. i mean, at least obama is talking about raising taxes and revenue and i don't think we know what romney's plan is, he won't share any details with us. i'll tell you what though, you say everything is about cutting spending. you know, gary, europe has been cutting spending like crazy and look where europe's headed. their talk, a lot of evidence that they're in recession now, because they've been way overaggressive about austerity and i don't think that would be good for the u.s. >> there's a lot of differences between us and europe, toby, what do you think this plan, this specific economic patriotism plan will do to debt and to the economy here in the u.s.? >> well, of course, debt is going to go up. remember, this is a code word. patriotism is a code word for we'll borrow another, and

borrow another, if you take the spending wave structure and take it out ten years, we get to that point like greece, like spain, where it's a point of no return. there is a point at which, when interest rates go up and of course, they will, and as interest rates go up, all of a sudden, 20% and then 30%, our entire budget is to pay interest. in my book, it's not very patriotic to bankrupt the country and that's exactly did-- . the debt guys have been promising this for years. they never go up. cost is buried and-- >> what do you mean go up. >> wait a minute-- >> and the low s rates we've h had in years and begging to invest in our economy. interest rates are low and we don't want to get into that. kyle, let's talk about what this patriotism does for the debt. does it help it? will it help the economy? >> toby and gary b are right. i want the red white and blue

on top and one way not to do it in the code words, check patriotism, redistribution of wealth, this just continues to facilitate qe 1, 2, 3, and 4 where we print and print more money and raise taxes into our way into complete insolvency. to toby's point about not being able to come back, he's exactly right. >> gary b? >> well, you look at the times that we have the greatest growth in our economy. when we were legitimately the world's super power. you know, after world war ii, during the '90s and look at the times, what was the size of government and the size of government spending. debt was small. government was small, and private enterprise was felt free to unleashts fury in the economic market why we have things like the internet, companies like google and apple. none of these things were the result of government going out there and training people to be programmers and things like that. no one trained people in the 50's to go out and do all of

these jobs that spurred the economy. if you look at history, look, i would be all for, great government spending run up the debt if it worked. there's no track record of this working at all. >> you know, we're going to-- the problem, the manufacturing jobs, that isn't necessarily jobs we want back in this the country. but we're losing the tech jobs to abroad, they're high paying jobs, not low paying, and losing to china. and talking about educating teachers and the schools, they're not going to they're going to outsource of educated students in other colleges and other countries so we do have to do. the problem is the student loan program i believe an increase, does not-- does not give you less money to want to say get a history degree over a computer science degree. there has to be more rewards for the need in america or the jobs are going to start going abroad faster and faster, high paying jobs.

there's no specific plan to get that done. >> all right. that's got to be the last word. all right. did you catch who these guys are talking about? >> that man is working hard for you. >> a true hero. >> you're lucky to have a guy so bright and so capable and committed. my friend, and a true patriot. >> well, obviously, they're referring to none other than our neil cavuto covering the debates like no one else starting this wednesday live from denver, kicking off on fox news at 4 p.m. eastern and neil gets the biggest and brightest players, so, watch it and profit. before the first presidential debate. neil talks to the republican vice-presidential nominee. >> you mentioned bowles simpson, sir, and you voted against that, so, your critics say-- >> i like that part of bowls simpson. the critics say you talk a good game and you don't deliver the goods. what do you say? >> will paul ryan's answer be

to fix it. free checking and check it out because of reforms meant to protec i'm so glad you called. thank you. we're not in london, are we? no. why? apparently my debit card is. what? i know. don't worry, we have cancelled your old card. great. thank you. in addition to us monitoring your accounts for unusual activity, you could also set up free account alerts. okay. [ female announcer ] at wells fargo we're working around the clock to help protect your money and financial information. here's your temporary card. welcome back. how was london? [ female announcer ] wells fargo. together we'll go far. as part of a heart healthy diet. that's true.

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it's america's election headquarters. keep it right here. >> goodbye free, hello fees. the new report showing more banks ditching free checking accounts, costly financial reforms supposed to protect consumers, kyle, you say it's going to get worse for

consumers, how so. >> the current administration, brenda, with the dodd frank regulatory environment here alive and well, has increased the regulatory costs to these banks in order to remain and continue solvent and guess who they're going to pass the costs on to? the consumer. no more free checking, you're going to be charged for your checking accounts. >> now, now, free checking accounts, they're not exactly a birth right, are they. >> brenda: i don't see him in the constitution. >> no, they're not. and you know what, good riddance, it was always about i go phony scam. there was never anything such as free checking and something the banks would come out and tell you they're giving free checking and whack it ten different directions with unexpected fees and the regulations made it more difficult to charge the fees and so, yeah, we're going back to a more honest system and offering a checking account, a serious system and we're not going to hit you from ten different directions and it's a bummer deal and the bankers

are happy to say goodbye to it. >> that may be so, but gary, if government aren't on the back of banks would they be passed along to the consumers. if they've got government regulations coming in, that takes away some of it. >> absolutely, as long as there's competition which there is a lot of in the financial sector, brenda. you have the community banks, big money center banks, local you know, credit unions and things like that. of course, if they want to gain market share they would pass these along, i have to last when he says he will now have a fairer system as if it's government's jobs to ensure that we have honesty in all industries. you know, most, a lot of government is so corrupt to begin with, can't spend our dollar wisely, yes, they're going to be charge in fairness for the financial industry, love it. >> jonas, who wins and who loses here? >> and corrupt just to clarify-- look the point the stop the

next banking crisis and bernie madoff, and the specifics there are winners and losers, what basically happened, the person offer the limit and sets, they benefit because now there will be less onerous fees on that person, the overdraft client. the guy who plays by the rules got free checking, the same with the guy with the 0% cash offer and doesn't let it go to the 29% mode when the period expires. you're taking free checking as a reward to the diligent consumer. you're no longer free checking. if you're the guy you're better off if the new regulation the zero sum game. >> brenda: nice guys finish last, stephen? >> i don't know, there's something to that. i think the problem is the rules were so obscure and hard to keep up with where and how the banks rules worked, that you get messed up even if you tried to be diligent. and don't tell me that people around the state haven't been

hit by the fees? >> look, stephan, the deal here is that, there's regulation actually makes it worse to the people who can afford it the least. of course the person who, the $3 atm charge doesn't matter, doesn't matter. it's going to 5 bucks and 5 bucks and takes it away from people who have the least money. sam they think on checks and bounced fees, et cetera. you know, it's always wonderful, in the word of doing well and making things right they've actually screwing the little guy and hurting the poor person, which none care. >> the poor version, they are going to pay less than fees, i'm going it turn that around and i think it was in general, the higher network banker who will gain the free checking and didn't need it so to say and i don't know if it's the best twist. >> okay, well, gary b. let me ask you, what's next? what fees do you see next? >> well, i tell you what, i think there's going to be fees riddled throughout the financial sector, you know, whether it comes to higher atm charges, you know, we talked about the check fees and

brenda, i come back to bigger question, why is this the government's role and why do they have to interject themselves and muck up another industry. you don't like the fees as the fans stephan said on checking, put your money under the mattress, it's not the government's job to ensure fairness for everyone. >> and don't upping, they kind of ask for this regulation by screwing up so bad-- >> it's not the government's fault for bailing them out. absolutely, they shouldn't have been bailed out. i know that's another debate to get into and we're not going to right now. so, thanks so much, guys, think the outrage coming out of the united nations is 0 he ever whatever this guy is saying? think again, why the global tax that the u.n. is pushing should have all of us worrying. with the spark cash card from capital one,

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>> turns out iranians president ahmadnejad wasn't the only one saying crazy things at the u.n. this week. the u.n. general assembly putting a global tax on investing to flying on its agenda and toby, you say that would trigger a global meltdown how? >> well, simple, because this is the campbell's nose under the proverbial tent. an a tax on tax and a tax on preeting-- once you get that point it's like crack and these guys, this is what they're hoping

for to get a sliver going and roll and roll and roll with people and what you have, you have inefficient money going into the government. excuse me, efficient money going into the government. to quote gary b smith and it's a disaster. >> i don't think there's a lot of reason to speculate about the tax, it's not going to happen. this is a bunch of egg heads at the bowels of u.n., to propose that country voluntarily create a tax on themselves. and surprised to take toby, a very smart guy, no chance of it. we've heard threats of these kinds of taxes before. nothing ever comes in mind. this is just more-- >> i will give you that, it's definitely from the bowels. >> brenda: okay. well, gary b, you know, the union has been around for decades wasting or spending billions of dollars. this is not totally out of context. this could happen, couldn't it? >> absolutely, brenda. in fact, i'd say for the last

20 years, to paraphrase ronald reagan, the nine more terrifying words are, i'm from the u.n. and i'm here to help. >> here to help. you know, the u.n. in fact, even back in 2005, usa today, says the u.n. is a scandal. i mean, they've had scandal after scandal and go back to the oil for food, with iran, and it's an organization that has corrupt dictators, corrupt countries and make up a decent part of its membership and it'd be even, to paraphrase jonas, it'd be worse than sending it to the totally and corrupt u.n. >> brenda: and we don't have to paraphrase, jonas, we can go right to him. what do you say? >> i actually think some of these ideas are going to become policy. maybe not from the u.n., but there will be a trading tax of some sort to pay for the world's ills through many large exchange. >> a tobin tax. >> and it's not a bad thing

necessarily. if it replaces income. i think an income tax is worse, to get rid of the encome tax, that's probably not what will happen, additional tax and probably, i will say just tax the financial people for the world's ills doesn't make sense, some proposals to fix the global warming problem. trading doesn't cause global warming. if popping champagne caused global warming tax the rich for it. but not fuel-- >> what do you say, is it good to have the global government-- >> listen to the narrative, government, taxes, this is just, this is preposterous to me and let me tell you this, that more and more we have these inefficient taxes, then, toby is exactly right. it's efficient money going into inefficient areas, and it's this, this narrative of redistribution of wealth. >> brenda: okay, that's got to

be the last word, guys. israel and iran, facing off. and worry the showdown is going to hit drivers here in the u.s., but there is a way you can protect yourself at the pump. ally bank. why they have a raise your rate cd. tonight our guest, thomas sargent. nobel laureate in economics, and one of the most cited economists in the world. professor sargent, can you tell me

what cd rates will be in two years? no. if he can't, no one can. that's why ally has a raise your rate cd. ally bank. your money needs an ally. so let's talk about coverage. based on this chart, who would you choose ? wow. you guys take a minute. zon, hands down. i'm going to show you guys another chart. pretty obvious. i don't think color matters. pretty obvious. what'sretty obvious about it ? that verizon has the coverage. verizon. verizon. we're going to go to another chart. it doesn't really matter how you present it. it doesn't matter how you present it. verizon. more 4g lte coverage than all other networks combined.

>> predictions, toby, you're up. >> israel and iran, i like kog.

up 60% next year. >> brenda: jonas bull or bear. >> bear. >> brenda: stephan what do you like. >> boeing trading at 12 teams next earnings. >> brenda: gary b. bull or bear on that one. >> i'm bearish, think it's going down more. >> brenda: your prediction, gary b. >> i like starbucks, single serve offering is a hit. i think the stock's up 20% by the end of the year. >> brenda: stephan, bull or bear? >> bear, coffee is expensive, so is-- >> all right. kyle, your prediction. >> you want to cure the check headache, own johnson & johnson and love valuation, up by 25% the new year. >> brenda: toby, bull or bear. >> sort of will bearish, but bull esche u.s. go, go. >> brenda: jonas your prediction. >> most 10 million dollar stuff looted from the total refund, returned this week and now go back to picking winning bonds top management, and up