tonight. john: such a nasty word people say caused by our financial problem. a lot of people in business are greedy but aren't you? abc a documentary on greed showinghow it can be self-destructive. >>to test people's greed they putoll bill in a ballpark you can t as many for yourself but every 10 seconds if there is money left he will double it. john: the game endsif they empty the bowl. what happens? >> they couldhave made more

money if they left half of the bills but they did not work that out. >> sally kohn is a liberal blocker writing about that attitude. >> i don't thinkreed is bad but what values do we hold alongside as a country? as a ociety? to balance out those pulses for the better good of everyone? john: an economist from george mason university thinks the government suld but out except in foreseeing rule of law. >> property rightscontrain selfnterest. i don't like to 17. we are more self interested ourselves, o family, not

about strangers. every economy will be bse on selinterest. with greed people grabbing more than they deserve. john: who decides what we deserve? >> the mart decides. it is e one stitution that allows people to grab more than they deserve. government fls gree. >> i i agree with part of that. gernment has allowed b businesses to getta bigg share of the market. crony capitalism. buthere is a positive sd as well. self-intest is the human impulse. weemper tat wit others. you are allowed to do whatever you want to d when your neighbor's land or the public square. we have vals of

community, the common good. john: let's turn to business. with aowl money the puha attends figure out to it is in their lf-interest to not empty the bulls did make if we each take a dollar then we will never emp the bull. >> now they are cooperating. >> without government setting the rule. >> there are four people coming together we will operate beyond a result interest that is why the founding fathers ceted th country. john: but they lose customers. >> but that is what a govement does. the other formula is what about inequality? let's imagine we were part of a large family.

have a cake we ave to share. the unimagined for sick of argument i am the stronger hard-working member so get it decent piece of cake. that is ne. will little kid has not worked as hard hgets a small piece that is unconstrained greed. john: if the ich take a ig piece we have less? >> we can t to grow the cake but right noww we hav resources if you cut taxes for the wealthy days literally right nowthat means we have less to spend on plic programs. >> that is just not true.

the analogy makes it seem the economy's wealth is a fixed side. deed the more you have there is less for me thats a bad analogy. john: ill gates takes $50 billion he takes a huge piece but we have less? i think he made no whole new take. so did steve jobs pursuing their owinterest they make usall richer. >> that is why bill gates did have a generous piece of cake but the quality with the finite number of case in the quality tends to compound itself we wantyou to have te goernment program and the quality rhodes to help your cake et baked in the firstplace.

>> that is historically inaccurate. look at le government in our history, people think the rich that are richer but it was rockefeller, carnegie, they came with nothing. that made the rest of us will be your. john: that is the key. >> i would quibble. john: rockefeller did not make the rest of us wethie >> baming 8146 us? noboby is saying tre should not be incentives broke ewant the g.i. bill bill, good public schools, road tha help the next generation ofpani john: inequality akes me

uncomfortable but by letting them until their cree >> there has been an economic recover1% has gone to waste . john: bet led is better than zero. >> at ast to do with the fact the government is way too big and romising more taxesif h current administration is elected. they want to set --want t make money. john: that takes i from the. >> the beauty is tey can only make mre money by making you better off. that is the duty items

seriou if i thoughtt was true i would say you can have the whole cake. if that will quote trickle-down to be. itill not be the way that i like i >> people make their cake. steve jobs bame rich. he bakd a lot of cakes but on the dotted by baking cakes for a lot of pele. i personally don't care if he got x% more than anybody se. they would not have had anything if he didot he the incentives of the market john: who did more? ther tesa o or michael milkin? she was selfls andhelpd

people but michael milkin broke fianci rules, went to jail, invented jump bonds. >> mhaelilkin by makin financing much more efficient the capital markets, entrepreneurs access. john: he allowed at revlon revlon, mattel to grow. >> it made capit more available. john: does greed help moe people? >> i will go with mother resa. >> my heart goes out to hr. she is a gd person but a lot of peoplcreate js by sending jobs overseas to china. that is a good philosophy

but t the arican economy is loser. >> because theyecome wealthier. the data shows that it has happened in aged to make you happy? yay says yes.

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john: greed for lack of a better word is good. greed is right. greed works. john: greed works? yes it does. i was surprised to read an article at cbs new.com that says embrace it. live it. tap into your inner gordon gekko. it was written ba robber.

>> agreed is good. >> know it is not. >> i would argue greed is a good thing. it saves lives. when they look to make a profit they ardesigned to create better services. the benefitseverybod. john: it ws the foundation for this country? >> add-ons see that in te declaration of independence. >> the pursuit of happinesss is. family those who believeom en god it has little to do but the others doot. >> family and religion can make you happy.

a by relentlessly pursuing a goal that uld make happy. the burning desire to move mountains toet it. john: gord gekko was implying tha would get the rest of his speech. he goes yond greeds good. >> greed clarifies and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. greed andall forms money, fe, love, knowledge the a board search of mankind mark my words. it wil save the other bell fracturing -- mafunctioni corporation called usa. john: he was to look selfish >> we seek i am pursuing sothing to make me happy

somehow that will hurt you but just because igo was up for what want to is that wh this country is about to. johngreed is ambition? am i and self-interest? >> wanting something better. were authors. when you're up at 00 in the morning not because u wanted to influence three or fo people but millions. the ambition, desire for more that people saw us to pursue more. john: makes ork harde. >> abolutely. john: the other eight hours maximize your free time. eep foeight, work for eight. >> you sleep and work a certain amount but to get a little bit more greedy and

yo free time, i get o greedyith it. do something marlous. john: you take your own food parties? >> i am quite greedyhen it comes to my heth. many things i do not eat. much to the embarrassment of my wifei will bring my own food. why is he doing this? john: there feelings are hurt? >> that is okay. i care so much about myself i am willing to sacrifice a dirty look. john: new ways to think about the word ged. thank you robert.

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john: the new "atlas shrugg" movie just ce t playing in 1,000 theaters. it is faithful to the ook. the book brilliantly predict did today of the suffocating bureaucracy that gradually kills freedom and opportunity. last year there was another movie butthat was just part part i was a rush job. part to was better in the movie maker is a bsinessman you made this happen. it bewilders me nobody else did because this book sells

1 million copies, 55 years later number 100 on the amazonist. book is way below that. rated one of the most influential books after the bible. >> i bout the rights 1992 i thought it would be a quick outsource and the studio. but it did not hve een. the right expired s early april i tried to develop a team nd two/2 onths later restarted ptography. john: nes cnter own oney. >> poduction budget was 5.5 and the rest of itas the other five. john: you spent twice as mu of your own mey.

>> ii i did but up but we did have ivestors and the budget was at 20 million. john: in the movie is set to in the near future. few jobs, gasoline is $40 a gallon because the government crushed the business a aew people are struggng to keep there business alive. >> that is faithful to the book. >> we discovered there are so many entrepreneurs who took to the movie. yes. i am under appreciad. i and denigrated. this move -- ovie proved very popular because frankly the business class does no belong with the govenment. john: in this scene james

taggart president of the railroad gives anoble speech. >> ideals are higher than profit. instead of aristocracy of money, now it isbout influence. >> you need to learn som manners. >> monday is the root of all evil? >> you think money is the root of al evil? what is the root of money? >> monday is a tool that allows us to trde. >> it is the sixth page seen in the book, ayn rand relly says the root -- monday is the root of a good. disinformation. and a barometer of a virtue. it allows peop to reate a

life hey are prducing t the maximuof their ability. then wouldever "maxim" of this they can see best within themselves than that enles them to maximize their life and the money they make. john: i was impressed have 55 years ago could know the terms politicians used today. she wrote about was like equalization o opportunity act. in this sce haig is on trial for violating the fair share act. >> you can seize my property ust becauseyou need it? than does any burglar. >> you are misrepresenting the letter and the intent of the fair hare law. based othe highest principle of the public good

john: that sells today. fairshare. >> it es fortunately sell part of the underlying theme of the scene is don't continue to denigrate . appreciate the produce. jobs notccretive by politicians but people that seen in decades f you continue to ot appreciate what the on to procure doe with the gnp of our society we will go on strike. john: people don't. they go golfing or create their owworld where tthe betterrpeopl hav a more prosperous life but in real life you take it. >> recently you are right. friends of my will say i can

go anoer year or two but i will stop. i will sell my company. i will go to a beach. you will see more and induce of entrepreneurs will finally say. thenough. watch us. it wl have been. john: another quick exchange >> that is what laws are four. >> no use whatsoever. >> i began a 150,0 pages of regulation reinforced today. they ay it lamar hurt me but it ges the a government the power to selectively enforced. >> i have been involved 3 years with a ozen diferent

companies. think you to the opportunity but we have had constantly dozens of lawsuits every year. i have been involved wit several hundred and have settd dozens and dozens. john: you hurt people spend my there are some of lawsuits and entrepreneurs are constantly e involved aney target. >> use the a mesotheioma mesothelioma, of lung disease or something else after another. it is enough john: there is the third movie to complete the trilogy? >> the target date is july ju 4th, a 2014 to seven we look forward to that. the new "atl shrugged" movie. thank you john aglialoro.

♪ >> soci justice -- >> push for social justice,nd that's our job. >> predentbama believes in social justice. >> social justice. >> social jusce heret home. >> social justice, i'm sick of it. the left isor social justi. who can oppose that? if you do, you are for social injustice? i better be for social justice. that means a big well fair state taken from rich peopleiven to the poor. that seems fair to people. john faces that attitudell the time, arofessor atbrow university, one of theemost liberal schools in america. you say free markets are the way to help the poor, but that can't

go over wellt brown. it has. they were surprised by it at first. they s the power of the idea. those who coradict the ideas, i't it hostile ground? it's interestg at brown, occasionallyostile, but browne's a wonderful place. >> i say "hostile" baa i had an experience there. i went there to cover a story years ago because a brown student s hounded out of school after he slept with the young woman who later said she was drunk and therefo couldn't give concept and therefore that was rin. -- rape. sex and alcohol when was in college were often combined, and what was the new definitn of rape? an activist ere said this was not a scussion that should en be allowed. >> get off campus. >> we dot want you here. >> come on, everybody! uder! >> the schoolto learn, there's one opinion, andhe othe opinion turns out to be wrong.

>> an then somebody pulled out my microphone cord saying "rain is not tv hype." the totalitarian left, unfai >> it's not brown finest moment. the students, in fact, i was a new professor when that happened, and they we in my office before they met you, and i urged them not to go, becaus in that instance, brown was dead wrong on thatat case, and i sai, if you go, he'll e you for lunch, which yid, but bwn changed a lot since then. >> i'm glad tohear that. goo the other controversy. you have written a book "free market faness," and i think amicans and brown students say what's fair t the free market because it creates a wealth disparity? some are wealthier than others. >> yes. free market fairness is mad sense of if you know what fairness. what is justice?

what is fairness? brown students think sometng li equality. if you wt to have a fair society or just society, you should have a society with lots of redistribuon from xation to the rich to the poor. that's a just society. especially aociety with great inequality, a sociy where some of the rich people got rich because parents wererich, had advantages -- >> it's unfair. >> whi is more fair? most brown freshm, esh off the boat a month a coming into the class think, well, this is fair, obviously. now let's ay for a minute. play i over 15-25 years. the society encourages equality d focuses on those questions does not grow. a society that celebrates a certain kind of greed, ges people to makereat things of themselves, that grows. lo at it again. which of the two societies is more fair? which is more just? well, watch my thumbs. theyndicate the poorest people. if thiss the just society, you care about equality, but no the

poor. i think fairness requires to be cused on the poor, and we evalua the syste in part by asking, how does the system work for the working po over time? >> even though it's more unequal. >> absolutely, absolutely. that inequalitis going to do some driving to pullhat lowest group up, and what's really important, is such a basic int for students especially, what do we care aut for just society? this or the poor? i think we should focus on the poor. wh we focus on the poor, pitalist arguments look better. >> thi goes back to the conversation we had eaier abou the cake. >> yes. >> to the left, there's a cake, d billgates takes a big piece. >> that's right. >> you say? >> i say we should ask ourselves what kind of society we want to work i live in. what kind of society should it be? a better, morally attracti unity is one that encourages people to up lea their creativity in the world, stand up on their own two feet, make

them able and wanting to be auorof their own lives. that's the community we want to live in, a community where people -- everyonemts to be the cake baker and make moree cakes, new cakes, new confectis not thought of yet. at's theetter sty. better society for people. >> and by the end of the temple brown, your students come around a little bit? >> a lot do. a loto. it's aew version of libertarianism, bleeding heart. some at brown joke about it that i bring the gospel of the change of libearia thinking, and they call it the gospel according to john, that's erdone, buthey say at at brown. >> all right. what out my earlieruestion, then, who did more for the wo moth teresa or t jailed michael milkin. >> what a painful question. my grdmother, a fan of mother teres, she'll roll over i her

grave, but michael did more. the wo heid to make capital markets efficient created wealth, enabled people to stand upon their own two feets causes of their own lives, to b economically independent. that's a really important giftt3 that he didn't ow he was doing, didn't intend to that. >>e may not have cared. >> may not have, but wat a magical thing to help other people become responsible causes of tir own lives, what mre respectful way can live together? >> thank you, john. when we come back, different take on what rlly helps poor people. >> we want more prosperity, and not just for us, but people all over the world who are poor. we have to stand up for the free enterprise system.

>> greed is a nasty word. people talk about today's greed, but, come on, people hav always been greedy. eed's a constant. beauty of a free market is it harnesse gre. the y to get ch in a fre market is serve customers well. i think thatmakes the market moral. maybi shouldn't use the wd reed," but call it

"enlightened selfnterest". people who have done morehan anyone to explain howatalism are ral are steve forbes, author of "freedom manesto: why free markets are moral and big government suspect," and author brooks of the american enterprise institute. author, you made a video to explain the molity of free enterprise, viewed 100,000 times on youtube. before we talk about greed, let's play a part of the video. >> since 1970, the worst poverty in the world, the percentage of the population that les on a dollar or day or less is declined by 80%,0%. there's been no achievement like that in human history. billioions of peopleave been lifted out of poverty. it's the most azing thing that humanity's ever accomplished. what happened? was it the incredible success of the united nations? central planning or the international monetary fund or global foreign aid? of course not. itas globalizaon.

it was free trade. it was entrepreneurship. was pperty rights. it was rule of law. in short, free enterpriseaved those people. if we want more prosperi, and not just for us, but people all over t wld who are poor, we have to stand up for the free enterprise s system. it's uly e system for good samatans. >> most people dn't believe that. would say mo people think it is the u.n. or foreign aid or central planning. china, china's boom. >> right. it's wrong. what saved china was sie 1980 #, they opened to foreign trade. there's a lot of stuff wrong, but they empower erepreneurs and openup trade to the united states since 19 up a thousand percent. >> honored private property around this time. >>xactly. >> we have a graph that shows how china's boomed not just since they started central plan, but when they recognizedrivate property. >> that's right.

this is literally what we've seen since 1980 lifted 400 million chinese out of povey. >> steve, i s most americans think trade hurts the average american or certainly the guy working the factory because if it's with china, h's losing a job to somebody in china. >> well, this gets t your introduction on the word "greed." greed in people's minds means taki to something that don't belong to you. in the free market, you have transactions. i want something, you want something, we exchange. money makes it easier. they want a treasury bill, want socks, we swap. we each get something. we have a free market where people do things, innovate, try th, and see what people want. free marketses, and this ishat thu.n. won't tell you is free markets is about meeting e needs and wants of other people. govement's about meeting its own needs. author's right, 40 million people in china iswhat's

driving the economy, not the state owned coanies. >> the perception is ee markets are cold, amoral. >> opposite. biggest breaker down of bear yours of people. you may not love your neighbor, but you want to sell to your neigor. we take it for grant t if you start a business, you wa the best people possie because you want to succeed. that's new in human history. before, you rarely trusted anyone beyond your family or community or ethnic group. commerce breaks down the barriers so people know whether or not they are cooperating with each other. >> think about it this way. all three of us came from immigrants. st americans came from immigrants. i bet your great grandparents, john, said i want to get to america for a better system of forced iome redistribution. i bet they -- >> my father, actuall-- no. >> i bet yr ancestors -- >> to clean toilets and to repair tm. >> to be rewarded for hard work and mit for the first time in his fe. that's whht markets allow us to

do it's a great eqlizer. i work harder, i innovate, i'm rewarded that doesn't happen in other countries. that's why markets are not about greed. theyre about a better life through earned success. >> the poor, i'm told, a left behind. paul krugman talkingbout paul ryan's budget saying he's explicly trying to make life harder for the poor. >> yeah that's completely false. i'll tell you why. >> your argument about dependency, but you want t cut offrograms and me the poor suffer? >> actually, i don't what i want to do is for the truly poor of the country, we need woo things. relief and opportunity. if you want to guarantee relief to the most indigital net meers of the society, we will be inconvenienced by debt isis in the country if we don't chang course, the poor lose everything. that's catastrophic an immoral. >> that's why they need more ograms.

>> he assumes like we're in medieval europe. once a pes cant, always a peasant. >> address the kris schism. -- criticism. we who want to cut punish the poor as chris matthews put it and believe the way to getrich is work harder, give the rich more money, but the way to get poor peoe to work harder is to screw them,take away their programs >> no, it takes away their dependency giving them empowerment. >> they'lltarve. >> food smp heard of them? you know, 30 years ago, mtthews would have said we should have a program to eryone gets a cell phone. that cos them $3,000. today, if chris matews haha his way. $10,000, crying selfish cell phone makers and the like, and we'd have it like health care. scarcity to abun dance, creating resources.

it's not the medieval economy. >> no one wants to throw ganny out in the snow and tak serves from the poor, but ensure people are not depende and still live i opportunity societies, and the rest of us, actually, are on our own to make our own way and earn success to live a dignified life to say i earned tt. >> thankou authorrooks and stev forbes. coming up, my take on greed.

>> the recession was brought on by a greedy all street corporations. people know they are suffering because of wall street eess. that is tu. john: no. even my colleagues did not get it. the economy has a boom and bust govenment made our last one orse by interfering giving t guarantees and subsidies. wall street was greedy but that is not new. everyone wants more. did you turn down a raise? i don't. the beauty of the free-market is the market regulates greed. the next guy offs it for less and you lose. its tempered by competent -- competition.

the left say it is through government but the free-market or greed works better. i'm about to eat this juicy steak. hodid i get it? in new yk city? try have this becau the reinsure wants tobe good to me? no. becae thousandsof people care about themselves. i learned this years ago. >> at the farm sadling up for another 14 hour workday. >> they're so much work fences, ditches, beating the cows, harvesting the hey, they'nly thfirst of a series who by caring about themselves make sure i get my stake. >> he delivers the prone to heed to the water. >> she keeps the

packinghouse clean. >> to make sure it is cleaneand saitized befoe production. >> the people who slaughter the cattle, . >> john: thn the people run the freezer facility. thousands of people haveto work together to get the food to market for me? >> i don't think of it that way. i think about money i am no one. >> i h never heard of him. >> themay not care aut meut they do work hard and cooperate to bring the state.

government cannot do it. they have tried bu most fail miserab. remember the long lines sotimes eople start and there was no food. free-market provides food everday. reaches celebrate that. that is or show. excuse me. i have to eat. comi on. "the willis report" is coming up next. gerri:ello, erody, i gerri willis. tonight ingtatelorida in the mitt mney column. a new "fox news poll" showing the romney rn ticket pulling ahead obama-biden in florida, the biggest battleground state. the "orlando sentinel" today, central florida's biggest paper endorsing the gop challenger despite pporting obama in 2008. is florida a done deal for mitt? let's ask. byron york, cief political coespondent for the "washington examiner". doug holtz-eakin, american