tonight. john: such a nasty word people say it caused by our financial problem. a lot of people in business are greedy but aen't you? at abc a documentary on greed showing how it can be self-destructive. >> to test peple's greed they put dollar bills in a ballpark you can get as many for yourself but every 10 seconds if there is money left he will double it. john: the game ends if they empty the bowl. what happens? >> they could have made more

money if they left half of the bills but they did not work that out. >> sally kohn is a liberal blocker writing about that attitude. >> i don't think greed is bad but what values do we hold alongside as a country? as a society? to balance out those impulses for the better good of everyone? john: an econist from george mason university thinks the government should but out except in foreseeing rule of law. >> property rights constrain self-interest. i don't like to 17. we are more self interested ourselves, our family, not

about strangers. every economy will be based on self-interest. with greed people grabbing more than they deserve. john: who cides what we deserve? >> the market decides. it is the one institution that allows people to grab more than they deserve. government feels greed. >> i i agree with part of that. government has allowed big businesses to getta bigger share of the market. crony capitalism. but there is a positive side as well. self-interest is the human impulse. we temper that with others. yoare allowed to do whatever you want to do when your neighbor's land or the public square. we have values of

community, the common good. john: let's turn to business. with a bowl of money the purchase attends figure out to it is in their self-interest to not empty the bulls did make if we each taka dollar then we will never empty the bull. >> now they are cooperating. >> without government setting the rule. >> there are four people coming together we will operate beyond a result interest. that is why the foundg fathers created the country. john: bu they lose customers. >> but that is what a government does. the other forlais what about inequality? let's imagin we were part of a large family.

we have a cake we have to share. the unimagined for sick of argument i am the stronger hard-working member so i get it decent piece of cake. that is mine. will little kid he has not worked as hard he gets a small piece that is unconstrained greed. john: if the rich take a big piece we have less? >> we can try to grow the cake but right now we have resources if you cut taxes for the wealthy days literally right now that means we have less to spend on public programs. >> that is just not rue.

the analogy makes it seem the economy's wealth is a fixed side. indeed the more you have there is less for me. at is a bad analogy. john: if bill gates takes $50 billion he takes a huge piece but we have less? i think he made no whole new take. so did steve jobs pursuing their own interest they mak us all richer. >> that is why bill gates did have a nerous piece of cake. but the quality with the infinite number of case in the quality tendto compound itself we want you toave the government program and the quality rhodes to help your cake get baked in the first place.

>> that is hstorically inaccurate. look at less government in our hior people think the rich that are richer but it was rockefeller, carnegie, they came with nothing. that made the rest of us will be your. john: that is the key. >> i would quibble. john: rockefeller did not make the rest of us wealthier? >> blaming 8146 us? noboby is saying there should not be incentives broke we want the g.i. bill bill, good public schools, roads that help the next generation of compapanies john: inequality makes me

uncomfortable but by letting them until their creed. >> there has been an economic recovery 1% has gone to waste . john: bet lead is better than zero. >> at ast to do with the fact the government is way o big and promising more taxes if the current administration is elected. they want to set -- want to make money. john: that takes it from the. >> the beauty is they can only make more money by making you better off. that is the duty items

serious. if i thought it was true i would say you n have the whole cake. if that will quote trickle-down to be. it will not be the way that i like it. >> people make their cake. steve jobs became rich. baked a lot of cakes but on the dotted by baking cakes for a lotf people. i personally don't care if he got x% more than anybody else. ey would not have had anything if he did notave the incentives of the market john: o did more? mother teresa o or michael milkin? she was selfless and helped

people but michael milkin broke financial rules, went to jail, invented jump bonds. >> michael miln by making financing much more efficit the capital markets, entrepreneurs access. john: he allowed at revlon revlon, mattel to grow. >> it made capital more available. john: does greed help more people? >> i will go with mother teresa. >> my heart goes out to her. she is a good person but a lot of people create jobs by sending jbs ovrseas to china. that is a good philosophy

but to the amecan economy is a loser. >> because they becme wealthier. the data shows that it has happened in agreed to make you happy? you happy? yay says yes. 4g lte is the fastest.

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john: greed, for lack of a better word is good. greed is right. eed works. john: greed works? yes it does. i was surprised to read an article at cbs news.com that says embraceit. live it. tap into your inner gordon gekko. it was written by a robber.

>> agreed is good. >> know it is not. >> i would argue greed is a good thing. it saves lives. when they look to make a profit they are designed to create better services. the benefits everybody. john: it was the foundation for this country? >> add-ons see that in the declaration of independence. >> the rsuit of happiness is. john: happiness comes from family those who believe then god it has little to do but the others do not. family and religion can make you happy.

a by relentlessly pursuing a goal that could make me happy. thburning desire to move mountains to get it. john: gordon gekko was implying that. would get the rest of his speech. he goes beyond greed is good. >> greed clarifies and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. greed and all forms money, life, love, knowledge the a board search of mankind mk my words. it will save the other bell fracturing -- malfunctoning corporation called usa. john: he was to look selfish >> we sek if i am pursuing somethg to make meap

somehow that will hurt you but just because igo was up for what i want to is that what this country is about to. jo: greed is ambition? am i and self-interest? >> wanting something better. we are authors. when you're up at 1:00 in the morning not because you wanted to infence three or four people but millions. the ambition, desire for more that people saw us to pursue more. john: makes us work harder. >> absolutely. john: the other eight hours maximize your free time. sleep for eight, you work for eight. >> you sleep and work a certain amount but to get a litt bit more greedy and

your free time, i get to greedy with it. do something marvelous. john: you take your own food to parties? >> i am quite greedy when it comes to my health. many things i do not eat. much to ththe embarrassment of my wife i will bring my own food. why is he doing this? john: there feelings are hurt? >> that is okay. i care so much about myself i am willing to sacrifice a dirty look. john: new ways to think out the word greed. thank you robert.

thank you robert. everyone in e cu, all the nurses wanted to watch him when he was there 118 days. everything that you thout was important to you changes in light of having a child that needs you every moment.

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john: the new "atlas shrugged" movie just came out playing in 1,000 theaters. it is faithful to the book. the book brilliantly predict did today of the suffocating bureaucracy that gradually kills freedom and opportunity. last year there was another movie but that was just part part i was a rush job. part to was better in the movie maker is a businessman you made this happen. it bewilders me nobody else did because this book sells

1 million copies, 55 years later number 100 on the amazon list. my book is way below that. rated one of the most influential books after the bible. >> i bought the rights 1992. i thought it would be a quic outsource and the studio. but it did not have been. the rights expired so early april i tried to develop a team and two 1/2 onths later restard photography. john: nes center own money. >> production budget was 5.5 and the rest of it was the other five. john: you spent twice as much of your own money.

>> ii idid but up but we did have investors and the budget was at 20 million. john: in the movie is set to in the near future. few jobs, gasoline is $40 a gallon because the government cshed the business and a few people are struggling to keep there siness alive. >> that is faithful to the book. >> we discovered there are so many entrepreneurs who took to the movie. yes. i am unde appreciated. i and denigrated. this move -- movie proved very popular because frankly the business class does not belong with the government. john: in this scene james

taggart president of the railroad gives a noble speech. >> ideals are higher than profit. instead of aristocracy of money, now it is about influence. >> you need to learn some manners. >> monday is the root of all evil? >> you think oney is the root of all evil? what is the root of money? >> monday is a tool that allows us o trade. >> it is the sixth page seen in the book, ayn rand really says the root -- monday is the root of all good. disinformation. and a barometer of a virtue. it allowspeople to create a

life they are producing to the maximum of their ability. then would never "maxim" of this they can see st within themselves than that enles them to maximize their life and the money they make. john: i was impressed have 55 years ago could know the terms politicians used today. she wrote about was like equalization of opportunity act. in this scene haig is on trial for violating the fair share act. >> you can seize my property just because ou need it? than doesny burglar. >> you are misrepresenting the letter and the intent of the fair share law. based on the highest inple the public good

john: that sells today. fair share. >> it does unfortunately sell part of the underlying theme of the scene is don't continue to denigrate me. appreciate the producers. jobs not accretive by politicians but people thatt seen in dcades if you continue to not appreciate what the on to procure does with the gnp of our society we will go on strike. john: people don't. they go golfing or create their own world wherethe betterrpeople have a more prosperous life but in real life you take it. >> recently you are right. friends of my will say i can

go another year or two but i will stop. i will sell my company. i will go to a beach. you will see more and induce of entrepreneurs will finally say. the ough. watch us. it will have been. john: another quick exchange >> that is wat laws are four. >> no use whatsoever. >> i began a 150,000 pages of regulation reinforced today. they say it lamar hurt me but it gives the a government the power to selectively enforced. >> i have been involved 30 years with a dozen different

companies. think you to the opportunity but we have had constantly dozens of lawsuits every year. i have been involved with several hundred and have ttled dozens and dozens. john: you hurt people spend my there are some of lawsuits and entrepreneurs are constantly e involved and easy target. >> use the a mesothelioma mesothelioma, of lung disease or something else after another. it is enough. john: theris the third movie to complete he trilogy? >> the target dae is july july 4th, a 2014 to seven we look forward to that. the new "atlas shrugged" movie. thank yojohn aglialoro.

♪ >> social justice -- >> push for social justice, and that's our job. >> president obama believes in social justice. >> social justice. >> social justice here at home. >> social justice, i'm sick of it. the left is for social justice. who can oppose that? if you do, you are for social injustice? i better be for social j justic. that means a big well fair state taken from rich people given to the poor. that seems fair to people. john faces that attitude all the time, a professor at brown university, one of thee most liberal schools in america. you say free markets are the way to help the poor, but that can't

go over well at brown. >> it has. they were surprised by it at first. they see the powerf the idea. >> those who contradict the ideas, isn't it hostile ground? >> it's interesting at brown, occasionally hostile, but browne's a wonderful place. >> i say "hostile"aa i had an experience there. i went thereo cover a story years ago because a brown student was hounded out of school after he slept with the young woman who later saishe was drunk and therefore couldn't give concept and therefore that was rain. -- rape. sex and alcohol when i was in college were often combined, and what was the new definition of rape? an activist there said this was not a discussion that should even be allowed. >> get off campus. >> we don't want y here. >> come on, everybody! louder! >> the school to learn, there's

one opinion, and the other opinion turns out to be wrong. >> and then somebody pulled out my microphone cord saying "rain is not tv hype." e totalitarian left, unfair? >> it's not brown's finest moment. the students, in fact, i was a new professor when that happened, and they were in my office before they met you, and i urged them not to go, because in that instance, brown was dead wrong on that case, and i said, if you go, he'll eat you for lunch, which you did, but brown changed a lot since then. >> i'm glad to hear that. go to the other controversy. you have written a book "free market fairness," and i think americans and brown students say what's fair about the free market because it creates a wealth disparity? some are wealthier than others. >> yes. free market fairness is made sense of if you know what

fairness. what is justice? what is fairness? brown students think something like equality. if you want to have a fair society or jus society, you ould have a society with lots of redistribution from taxation to the rich to the poor. that's a just society. especially a society with great inequaty, a society where some of the rich people got rich because parents were rich, had advantages -- >> it's unfair. >> which is mor fair? most brown freshman, fresh off the boat a month ago coming into the classthink, well, this is fair, obviously. now let's play for a minu. pl it over 15-25 years. the society encourages equality and focuses on those questions does not grow. a society that celebrates a certain kind of greed, urges peop to make great things of themselves, that grows. look at it again. which of the two societies is mo fair? which is more just well, watch my thumbs. they indicate th poorest people. if this is the just society, you

care about equality, but not the poor. i thinkairness requireto be focused on the poor, and we evaluate the system, in part by asking, howdoes the system work for the working poor over time? >> even though it's more unequal. >> absoluly, absolutely. that inequality is going to do some driving to pull that lowest group up, and what's really importan it's such a basic point for students especially, what do we care about for a just society? this or the poor? i think we should focus on the poor. when we focus on the poor, capitalist arguments look better. >> this goes back to the conversation we had earlier about the cake. >> yes. >> to the left, there's a cake, and bill gates takes a big piece. >> that's right. >> you say? >> i s we should ask ourselves what kind of society we wanto work in, live in. what kind of society should it be? a better, morally attractive community is one that encourages people to up leash their creativity in the world, stand

up on their own two feet, makes them able and wanting to be authors of their own lives. that's the community we want to live in, a community where people -- everyonements to be the cakebaker and make more cakes, new cakes, new confections not thght of yet. that's the better society. better society for people. >> and by the end of the temple at brown, your students come around a lite t? >> a lot do. a lot do. it's a new version of lirtarianism, bleeding hear some at brown joke about it th i bring the gospel of the change of libertarian thinking, and they call it the gospel according to john, that's overdone, but they say that at brown. >> all right. what about my earlier question, then, who did more for the world? mother teresa or the jailed michael milkin. >> what a painful question. my grandmother, a fan of mother

teres, she'll roll over in her grave, but michael did more. the work he did to make capital markets efficient created wealth, enabled people to stand upon their own two feet as causes of their own lives, to b economical independent. that's a reallymportant giftt3 that he didn't know he was doing, didn't intend to do that. >> he may not have cared. >> may not have, but what a magical thing toelp other people become responsible causes of their own lives, what more respectful way can we live together? >> thank you, john. when we come back, a differe take on what really helps poor people >> we want more prosperity, and not just for us, but people all over the world who are poor. we have to stand up for th free enterprise system. the capital one cash rewards card

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>> greeds a nasty word. people talk about todas greed, but, come on, people he always been greedy. greed's a constant. beauty of a free mark i it harnses green. the way to getrich in a free market is serve customers well. i think that makes the market moral. maybe i shldn't use the word

"greed," but call it "enlightened self-interest". people who have done more than anyone to explain how capitalism are moral are steve forbes, author of "freedom manifesto: why free markets are mor and big governmen suspect," and author brooks of the american enterprise institute. author, you made a video to explain the morality of free enterprise, viewed 100,000 times on youtube. before we talk about greed, let's play a part of the video. >> sce 1970, the worst povert in the world, the percentage of the population that lives on a dollar or day or less is declined by 80%, 80%. there's been no achievement like that in human history. billions of people have been lifted out of poverty. it's the most amazin thing that manity's ever accomplished. what happened? was it the incdible success of the united nations? central planning or the international monetary fund or global foreign aid?

of course not. it was globalization. it s free trade. it was entrepreneurship. it was property rights. it was rule of law. in short, free enterprise saved those people. if we want more prosperity, and not just for us, but people all over the world who are poor, we have to stand up for the free enterprise system. it's truly the system for good samaritans. >> most people don' believe that. i would say most people think it is the u.n. or foreign aid or central planning. china, china's boom. >> right. it's wrong. what sed china was since 19 #, they opened to foreign trade. there's a lot of stuff wrong, but they empower entrepreneurs and open up trade to the united states since 1980 up a thousand percent. >> honored private property around this time. >> exactly. >> we have a graph that shows how china's boomed not just since they started central plan, but when they recognized private

property. >> that's right. this is literally what we've seen since 1980 lifted 400 million chinese out of poverty. >> steve, i say most americans think trade hts the average american or certainly the guy working in the factory because if it's with china, he's losing job to somebody in china. >> well, this gets to your introduction on the word "greed." greed in people's minds means taking to something that doesn't belong to you. in the free market, you have transactions. i want something, you want something, we exchange. money makes it easier. they want a treasury bi, i want socks, we swap. we each get something. we have a free market where people do things, innovate, try ings, and see what people want. free marketses, and this is what the u.n. won't tell you is free markets is about meeting the needs and wants of other people. government's about meeting its own needs. author's right, 40 million

people in china is what's driving the economy, not the ste owned companies. >> the perception is free rkets are cold, amoral. >> opposite. biggest baker down of bear yours of people. youay not love your neighbor, but you want to sell to your neighbor. we take it for granted that if you start a business, you want the be people possible because you want to succeed. that's new in human history. before, you rarely trusted anyone beyond your family or community or ethnic group. commerce breaks down the barriers soeople know whether or not they are cooperating with each other. >> think about it this way. all three of us came from immigrants. most americans came from immigrants. i bet your great grandparents, john, said i want to get to erica for a better system of rced income redistribution. i bet they -- >> my father, actually -- no. >> i bet your ancestors -- >> to clean toilets and to repair them. >> to be rewarded for hard work and merit for the first time in

his life. that's whht markets allow us to do. it's a great equalizer. i work harder, i innovate, i'm rewarded. that doesn't happen in other countries. th's why markets are not about eed. they are about a better life through earned success. >> t poor, i'm told, are left behind. paulrugman talking about paul ryan's budget saying he's explicitly trying to make life hard for the poor. >> yeah, that's completely false. i'll tell you why. >> your argument about dependency, but you want to cut off programs and make the poor suffer? >> actually, i don't. what i want to do is for the truly poor of the country, we need woo things. relief and opportunity. if you want to guarantee relief to the most indigital jane members of the society, we will be inconvenienced by a debt crisis in the country if we don' change course, the poor lose everything. that's catastrophic and immoral. >> that's w they need more

programs. >>e assumes like we're in medieval europe. once a pes cant, always a peasant. >> address the kris schism. -- criticism. we who want to cut punish the poor as chris matthews putt and believe the way to get rich is wk harder, give the rich more money, but the way to get poor people to work harder is to screw them, take away their programs. >> no, it takes away their dependency giving them empowerment. >> they'll starve. >> food stamps, heard of them? you know, 30 years ago, matthe would have said we should have a program to everyone gets a cell phone. that cost them $3,000. today, if chris matths had his way. $10,000, crying selfish cell phone makers and the like, and we'd have it like health care. scarcity to abun dance, creating

resources. it's not the medieval enomy. >> no one wants to throw gran out in the snow and take services from the poor, but ensure people a not dependent and still live in opportunity societies, and the rest of us, actually, are on our own to make our own way and earn successto live a digfied lifeo say i earned tha >> thank you author brooks and steveorbes. coming up, my take on greed. service would yochoose,

based on this chart ? don't rush into it, i'm not looking for the fastest answer. obviously verizon. okay, i have a different chart. going that way, does that make a difference ? look at verizon. it's so much more than the other ones. so what if we just changed the format altogether ? isn't that the exact same thing ? it's pretty clear. verizon. more 4g lte coverage than all other networks combined. overmanyiscounts to thine customs! [old english accent] safe driver, multi-car, paid in full -- a most fulsome bounty indeed, lord jamie. thou cometh and we thsaveth! what are you doing? we doth offer so many discounts, we have some to spare. oh, you ha any of those homeowners discounts? heree go. thank you. he took my shield, my lady. these are troubling times in the kingdom. moreiscounts than we knoweth what to do with.

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>> the recession was brought on by a greedy wall street corporatns. people know they are suffering cause of wall street excess. that is true. john: no. even my colleagues did not get it. the economy has a boom and bust government made our last one worse by interfering giving out guarantees and subsidies. wall street was greedy but that is not new. everyone wants more. did you turn down a raise? i don't. the beauty of the freearket is the marke regulates greed. the next guy offers it for less and you lose.

it is tempered by competent -- competition. the left says it is through government but the free-market or greed works better. i'm about to eat this juicy steak. how did i get it? in new york city? try have this because the reinsurewants to be good to me? no. because thousands of people care about themselves. i learned his years ago. >> at the farm saddling up for another 14 hour workday. >> there so much work fences, ditches, beating the cows, harvesting the hey, they're only the firs of a series who by caring about themselves make sure i get my stake. >> he delive the propane

to heed to the water. >> she keeps the packinghouse clean. >> to make sure it is cleaned and sanitized before production. >> the people who slaughter the cattle, . >> john: then theeople run the freezer facility. thousands of people have to work together to get the food to market for me? >> i don't think of it that way. >> i think about money i am no one. >> i had never heard of him. >> they may not care about me but thedo work hard and cooperate to bring the

state. government cannot do it. they have tried but most fail mierably. remember the long lines sometimes people start and there was no food. free-market provides food every day. reaches cebrate that. that is our show. excuse me. i have to eat. money bet top dollar we'll continue to be. the national security buzz is all about what really happened at benghazi, what about the ey eye iranians. if the intelligence was so bad in libya, do we know if and when iran has the bomb? we're talking aboutow accurate is our intelligence inside iran right here, right now. >> from the bo fox business netk headquarters in new york city, it's the tom sullivan show. here's your host, tm sullivan. >> tom: and thanks for joining us here. the vice-president is the latest to claim we