the show show and dana has. >> no, no. >> and talking about yoga pants tomorrow. >> brenda: forget the fiscal cliff. is the union clash with businesses a bigger threat to jobs? from protesting wal-mart on the busiest shoppings day of the year and targeting one frt busiest u.s. airports on one of the busiest travel days of the year. we'll see big labor's travel play, a blow to a chance fo anyone's recovery. hi, everyone, i'm brenda buttner, this is bulls and bears, and here we go the bulls and bears, gary b smith, tobin smith, jonas max ferris

along with jim la camp and steve murphy, welcome to everybody. jim, growing union clashes with job creators, growing concerns about jobs? >> absolutely. look, every time you make it harder for an employer to hire somebody they're going to hire less people. we're already seeing it in the jobs numbers. look, obamacare has already cost a tremendous amount of jobs and since the president was reelected and it became apparent that obamacare was coming back in, we've seen the layoffs accelerate and now the unions are trying to kick businesses at a time when businesses are hurting and at a time when they're uncertain about labor costs and this is going to take full-time jobs to part-time jobs, and it' going to mean the closing of plants, and factories and already met one right here, with the hostess twinky factory. >> tin that was 18,000 jobs, just forget about it, you look at the auto workers, the steel industry, airlines, you go down the list and unions fits for pensions and benefits, not just pay, have really taken

down a lot of companies. >> well, they have, but, i guess we're ftune in our overall economy, 150 milon workers only now at about a 9 or 10% union total labor force, so, on relative basis weould be much better or worse time since 1980 whi we were opposo 26, 27, in the states, intriguingly, the states are not right to work states where unions can force a company to, people to pay dues et cetera, those states are falling behind. the empirical evidence, the re these guys get power the less the jobs get created. >> looking forward, not just now. we know that unions feel more empowered and their presidential candidate won the white house and union leaders saying they're going to congress and ask for easier ways for companies to become unionized. so, can we expect to see more of these plays against companies? >> absolutely, for the exact

reason you noted. unions were obviously a big supporter of obama and the liberal agenda, and rightly so because they've worked nicely with each other, but as unions become bigger and bigger, bigger and the 9, 10% that toby said, it tends to work the opposite of what we want to see happen to jobs and unemployment. we want to see unemployment go down, but the whole point of unions is to raise wages, raise benefits. in order to do that, you need a smaller supply of something, not a larger supply of somethining. and unions want to have less jobs so they can have more of that benefits i just said, for each worker, so, it tends to work against full employment, as jim pointed out, you saw it in spades at hostess. finally they got to the point, it broke the back of the company and now you have 18,000 jobs just gone >> brenda: okay, steve, unions clashing with business, good or bad for jobs going forward?

>> look, clashing is not a great thing. put it's the way that unions get their point across and the way they organize and having more of the work force unionized is a good thing for the economy not a bad thing. this is still 70% a consumer economy. people need money in their pockets in order to purchase things and drive the economy forward and right now, that's not happening because wages have gone down per capita dramatically over the last couple of generations, and also, look, a couple of other quick points. the strongest economy in the world have the highest level of unionization in northern europe and we far stronger-- >> i know that europe is the-- >> hold on, let's, i just want to get to jonas quickly. jonas, do you think that unions are negotiating their way out of jobs? there's certainly room for unions at certain time, but is

now that time? >> the time was about 35 years ago. unfortunately, the way the global economy's changing, it's very difficult to negotiate anything as a union and that's why unionization rates in the private sector are shrinking and will continue to shrink. you can't fight the global markets, and difficult to negotiate the benefit packages people use today get 20, 30, 40 years ago, to ease he to move off shore and outsource. and it's a strange one, not the way you see a damage mostly to profits and also the economy. the state with the highest union rate is new york, a lower unemployment rate than north carolina and 2.9 versus 28% because the unions actually stopped in some cases that's not good for the economy and it keeps the unemployment artificially high and removes flexibility to the employer which can hurt the economy in the long run and

gep again, you don't see it in the unemployment rate. >> gary b, respond to that. >> steve made an interesting point and he said, you know, our economy is much stronger and heavily unionized. and unions peaked, 40, 50 years ago and i think that the-- >> hold on, the strongest we've seen the economy though is in the mid to late 90's, primarily because the internet bubble, an industry in total technology that was one of the lease unionized industries, so i don't think there's a correlation in our country anyway, between high unionization and what the economy's been doing. >> steve, response? >> absolutely wrong, when workers make more, they buy more, you know what? maybe some of these-- >> how are you defining-- >> hold on, hold on, guys. >> and saying the henry ford axiom, i want my workers to be able to buy the automobiles we're producing. >> well, but the issue here is-- >> what if we go back to spartacus here, because, he had good ideas, too.

>> and simple their wages-- >> we're talking about jobs and really, when workers are asking for more money, it may be that in time of uncertainty, in tough times, certainly, hires, employers may say we can't pay it, we've got to get rid of jobs. >> they already are, brenda, this is a dumb idea. for the unions to be flexing their muscles when there are so many people working part-time that would love full-time jobs and so many people out there that don't have jobs at all and now they're going to make things tougher for employers? that doesn't make sense at all. and jonas' points, in texas we're attracted businesses from new york and california because of the businesses were moving here because the labor costs are lower and-- >> taxes play a role in the unionization rate in my opinion, but-- >> but if you're looking at

individual companies toby. >> i mean, the union jobs, i flew out to arizona on a union plane with union pilots. that's been there for 60, 70 years, those industries have shrunk and less planes, less workers, et cetera. >> i drove a rental car that was built by a company that's now two-thirds than it started out 30 years ago, so you can't make the case here in any shape or form that union labor and all the benefits and all the costs and all the inefficiency has anything to do with a stronger economy, factual. >> brenda: that's got to be the last word, thanks, guys. coming up, the white house putting out new rules for the president's health care law. why the cavuto gang says it just puts the nanny state in your workplace. and that at the bottom of the hour, but up here first, federal employeesleading with congress we've suffered the loss so leave our pay and benefits alone in the fiscal cliff costs. thehehehehe childress, and now

back to bulls and bears, and for the latest headlines, log on to foxnews.com. >> leave us alone, as the fiscal cliff nears a group representing more than two dozen federal employee unions telling congress not to touch their pay and benefits when it comes to any debteal they say, quote, no other group has been asked to financially ntribute the way they have. gary b, you say what? >> yeah, i don't understand that, brenda. from two perspectives, one, in

life for like jobs, including the benefits and wages, government employees make out a lot better than their counterparts in the private sector, number one, discriminated against. two, the unemployment rate for government workers is about half of what the unemployment rate is for the general population, it's about 4 1/2%, brenda, they've been doing fabulously on the back of the private sector, which has suffered. so, asking them to contribute a little bit more, i think, is quite fair. >> well, steve, we have seen federal workers have a pay freeze and we have seen them contribute more to pensions to retirement plans. have they done enough already? >> well, they have done enough, but they're going to have to do more. but gary b is wrong. white collar federal workers don't do as well as their counterparts in the private sector, blue collar workers do, and we're talking oer trillion dollars here, we're talking in national crisis, something that can bring the country down, the world

economy down, everybody is going to have to do more, it's true. they've had a head start, wages were frozen, but the federal workers as well as just about everybody who's touched by the federal budget is gng to have to make big sacrifices. >> you have to include benefits when you're talking about pay, see, that's an important thing. but, you know, we talk about they had a pay freeze. there's millions of americans who have lost their pay. they've seen pay cuts, not just a freeze. have the federal workers contributed that much more than private workers with such an unemployment? >> they've seen their pay disappear, they've lost their jobs and we haven't seen as many federal workers lose their jobs. w, if you want to break down the numbers, it is true that maybe their salars aren't higher for white collar workers, but their retirement plans are significantly better and they can retire earlier and have a much lger pension. those pensions are largely

absent from the private sector now so they do have a better deal and they have a lot more job security. so, yes, i think being that the hand that feeds them is suffering, then they need to be willing to take some more cuts and if you don't like it, then you cago on to the private sector, and leave that public sector job. >> brenda: well, jonas, is it fair to burden just taxpayers with tax increases or spending cuts or whatever? >> not only is it not fair, it's not possible because there's so much wrong with the budget and the only way, this is the beauty of the cliff, it's kind of across the board, it needs to be acros the board both on tax increases and spending cuts. and carving out groups that aren't going to get a tax increase on some level or the spending cuts that the government needs to do and sort of lik the health care plan, the cadillac plans and we're going to get this and the then the unions got involved and then didn't get that thing. you can't do that. we've got too much of a budget gap and yeah, they took pay

freezes, but in low inflation times, it's as hard to cut, as it sounds like. and your pay is frozen across the years. no,t's taxes across the boards and spending cuts across the board. >> brenda: toby, leave me alone, is that fair for the federal workers to say. >> leave me alone is that we've been picking on them. to gary's point, if that's being picked on, throw in the briar patch at this point. that sounds like a nonsecter, an the good news is that the cost of the federal workers relative to the, you know, budget deficits and medicare, small enough it's somewhat of a side show. the idea that we're picking on themmen they're not getting the right deal, get out to the real world. >> eve. >> don't blame them, federal workers, this isn't their fault. yes, they're going to have

give more. and in favor of union representation and union representation say hey, leave us alone, it's good for them, but overall, everybody's going to have to give, everybody. >> brenda: gary b. >> look, if it's the federal workers have it so bad, try to get a job in the federal sector, it's almost impossible these days, that's how bad it is >> brenda: but, jonas, there have been layoffs from the federal sectors as well. >> they haven't had as hard as states. states had to get their budgets going tighter before the federal government. the federal government nois only starting to address the workers so i think that the state workers are taking it harder than the federal workers and now the federal workers ve to join the misery of the state workers in tightening budgets. >> brenda: tough times for everybody, thanks, guys. most young americans hurling up the graduation caps and throwiwiwiwiwi

>> is the american dream dead? 63% of recent college graduates are saying just that. toby you say they need to go back and take a history course, what do you mean? >> not only a history course, but look at the dow jones, we've continually in the united states come through these cycles and part of learning in college is about the cycle that started in the 20's and the 30's and to world war ii and 9/11. and we have come back and we've been stronger because we as a people and the american dream have always been alive

and that dream is really more than opportunity, hard work, and the ability to take a risk. and be rewarded for a risk. we have not taken those things out of our economy if you've been in school the last six or seven years, you may not be excited how it works. let's look at history and history says we're going to be fine. >> brenda: gary b, a lot of the college graduates say uncertainty shall the fear of getting a joor losing a job and debt. those are all good reasons to be pessimistic. >> exactly. brenda, look, i sincerely appreciate toby's optimism, but i'll just put myself in the shoes of my daughter who graduated about 18 months ago from college and what does she face? can't find a job, i think she'll face persist sently high unemploynt, she'll face having to service this huge deficit that we've rung up through higher taxes which we know are coming and she'll face in my opinion higher health care costs not lower

health care costs and she probably will be very hard pressed to ever get a loan for a house now that we've clamped down pretty much on the whole mortgage industry. if she got a job that even qualified her for a loan. i see the american dream i not dead, but it is on life support at this moment i hate to tell you. >> lucky she has a good dad. but jonas, is it not dying, but changing and maybe that's for the best? >> the american dream that the students are thinking of. the one with the gold watch and security, and own the house with the picket fence, that dream is gone with the pension, that work force is gone, but that's not really the measured american dream and tobin was getting into that. and the houseith granite tops and in business, it's the best place, it's getting easier to start a business and raise capital than ever through our history, so, yes, the work force, bore heing money and getting a degree and

walking into ibm and getting a pension and that's over and that's, sorry, but for people that started businesses, which is how america started it's the best it's ever been, and you can't be totally sad about it. >> tough times, but we think before. americans come through this, can't they? >> it's never been easy, you know? and i don't quite understand this younger generation from one perspective. you know, 40 years ago over 60% of high school stunts worked in the summer. today it's 40%. where is the hardship? you know, look, if you look-- >> if you look, that's not the ca case. >> for the summer? >> ten years ago, look, let's get this microeconomically, gary b i believe your daughter is going to be fine because she's going to work hard and education, and that's what it takes, and make it happen for yourself. >> i was going to-- quickly, jim, last word on this? >> well, things are different than they were, even 25 years

ago, 30 years ago when he graduated from collegeou could pretty much get a job going out of college and things are difference and the administration hasn't made it easier with the class warfare and one side always being vilified and angry at the other side, but americans will get through this, we made it through the civil war, we made it through two world wars and we're almost halfway-- >> 9/11, world war ii. >> we're going to-- >> and 20-year-old billionaires to get through it, it's great. >> and thanks guys and thanks to steve for joining us. >> my pleasure. >> brenda: well, you think it's dangerous inside the stores this week? the real danger could be outside and it could cost you if you don't stay with us.

>> predictions? take it away, toby? >> it's not about the black friday, it's cyber monday and ebay ione of the beneficiary, all over the world. we keep thinking the united states. up 25%. >> brenda: gary b bull or bear. >> bear, too far too fast for ebay. >> brenda: what do you like. >> of the retailers i like target i think it's a great place to shop and 25% by valentine's day. >> brenda: bull or bear? >> i agree with that compared to waurm. >> brenda: and jim predictions. >> natural gas, figuring out how to use it, could be up 15%. >> brenda: toby you like that. >> ne