book. the bottom line is that we are mostly safe because of markets. not because of government. companies were carved by bacteria simply to protect their brand. competition, device the pipes are reputation, it protects us much better than government over well. that is our show. i am john stossel, thank you for watching. >> congratulations. >> and good to see you, hap saturday. >> one month to go before our financial d-day and d.c. is still stuck in a stalemate. and now a new plan is emerging to buy more time bypassing an extension and pushing the deadline back. job creators slamming the idea, saying it will do nothing to kill uncertainty and could rewind any signs of recovery. so, why is someone here certain it will work? hi, everyone, i'm brenda buttner, this is bulls and bears. let's get right down to it.

bulls and bears gary b smith, tobin smith. jonas max ferris and larry glazier, welcome to everybody. and larry, you say delay it? >> that'right, that's right, brenda, given the choice between the loss of millions of jobs in a deep and severe recession or delayg a deal in hopes of getting meaningful spending cuts in washington, the kind of spending that would cut the 4 billion dollars worth of additional spending every day, that's the long-term not the short-term torevent being back in this place a year from now and that's going to g the country back on its feet. >> don'tet excited. i know gary b will as well. and short-term uncertainty. it's been long-term and we've been going through this for years a wasngton in the doing anything. what does that do to the economic recovery? >> i think you see it with the stock market, brenda, everything is pretty much frozen. look, you cannot pic up a paper, a paper or lk on the

internet and see fiscal crisis. everyone now is focused on it and i don't care if you're inside the beltway or outside the beltway. and it does a couple of things, if we don't get past this deadline and i agree with larry principle, but the fact if we don't get past the deadline, people are one, going to view government as totally inept or more inept than it is right now. and businesses free us up and they're afraid of doing anything and the individual freezes up. look, who is going to be out there actively investing and looking for work? you just don't know what's going to happen with all that we need to get something done, as bad as it might be. >> and does a mth or two really make a difference? at some point, they're going to come up with somethin >> yeah, that's right. i mean, i think a month or two a probably okay. and, but i'm with gary. if they kick this thing back a year, it really confirms the markets worst suspensions, which is that we've got a congress that has absolutely

no functionality whatsoever, they're well and truly broken and i mean, that would be disturbing, kicking back a month or two, i think the market can stomach that. i don't think the market would want to see us kick it back a year or two, no, no, no. >> here is the deal, tobin, what about we kick the can, we kick the can, we kick the can and the road is a what i, essentially, if we never cut spending, what's the issue there? >> well, that's theorst outcome, because you know, a trillion here, a trillion there, number one. but number two, "we are the world's" greatest can kickers in the history of the planet and we're going to kick the can down the road and that's actually, you know, politically, the most workable and the dysfunction, you know, is there a question about dysfunction in washington? i think that's already priced into the market. what's not priced into the market is the stupidity that they're going to bring when, you know, this down payment then turns into the whole deal

and then it's going to be hel up and we know, as i said before, this is loosesy and charlie brown, the football is going to be pulled out and land on their tuckus, and then they're going to pass a little thing, you know, to move it down six months. >> and using those technical terms. and jonas, pushing back the deadlines, what does it mean to the economy? especially if we don't know in it will be a deal in a month or a deal to do a deal in another year? >> there's absolutely no good at this point in pushing along the current system and waiting to fix it later. yeah, no one wants higher taxes, but we're not in a deep reception right now. we absolutely are going to die if things start to chang and in fact, the underlying real problem, the growing deficit on the path to greece, the goal gets worse once we kick the can away. that will be the overriding probleming not the slowing economy not people spending money, but sure, that might not happen in the first two

months, but it will eventually happen if we keep kicking down the can. we want to prove to the world that we have a solution and if it takes a few months to get there and higher taxes for a while, big deal, we will get there. that's got to be the plan not just the same nonsense. >> yeah, but larry, that's part of your point, but jonas says we're not in a bad recession, we're certainly not in a good recovery. and if we just keep falling little bit by little bit, maybe as much as jump off the cliff, but it's certainly a slippery slope. >> brenda, the damage is already being done. we saw it in november retail sales and companies delaying activity already and we know the ratings agencies are minutes away, we're right to fix the problem in the long run than making a bandaid short-term deal. it doe't get recovery. >> we're going to get a bandaid deal and that's the only political way to do it. number one, held together with safety pins and the arguments if you really like the roaring

economy right now dealing with all of this malarky, we'll get the same thing next ar, we know that. the knowns are known. the unknowns, unknowns is what types of she nangans to come up with a gimmick and the market won't like that. >> gary b, will there have to have gimmick? the president won the election and if it pushed over, blame the republicans? >> well, brenda, i think there will be a gimmick and that's unfortunately the way that washington works these days, larry had a phrase, he said meaningful spending difficulties. we know that there's not going to be any meaningful spending cuts, the's not going to be meaningful spending cuts three weeks from now, it's not going to be there three years fro now. let's at least get over the psychological hurdle of the fiscal cliff. move on, and put some bandaid together and then hopefully, the next group in there, minus

obama, starts to cure this four years from now, because nothing's going to happen in the next four years good. but maybe we get through the fiscal cliff, but then another fiscal cliff comes, that's the whole point of this. >> in fact, and there was a proposal this week to try it get rid of the fiscal cliffs and no longer give congress full power to extend the debt. but i think, i'll tell you what, i'm kind of curious to see the other guys, i think we're going over the fiscal cliff because i thk that congress would much rather have us go over the fiscal cliff and then vote to lower taxes and increase spending and they can't bare to raise taxes and reduce spending and that's where we'll end up in three months and have a vote to lower taxes and increase spending. >> jonas what does it do in the short-term, i know you're talking long-term. but short. >> they're scaring erybody about this, like we've got to keep pushinon or the world is going tond and it's not as bad a the politicians are pretending it is even.

look, it's not a good thing, but psyched into a level and it will be worse than the real effect of having the tax increase on the government level and that's the danger, using it as a tool to get their policies on boats sides of doing this, and they're going to cause -- the first recession is caused by psyching themselves into it and making people scared that things are going to end if we let it happen. >> toby, the final wor re? >> yeah, now, we've seen this movie before and know how it ends and now, at some point, it's start after tragedy for the united states and are we going to vote them in-- >> i guess we're partially to blame. >> yes. >> first, wal-mart, and now mickey d's? unions taking on the nation's largest employers, is this big

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i'm jamie colby, i'll send you back to bulls and bears on the fox news channel. all of your latest news and headlines on foxnews.com. >> brenda: unions now taking their fights over wages to mcdonald's in new york city. from mickey d's to wal-mart to one of our nation's busiest airports to key shipping ports. big labor is flexing its big muscles after the election and gary b, you say it's a big problem for us, the consumers, how so? >> absolutely, brenda, look, everyone should realize what unions are, unions are a little monopoly in the company and exercising the the monopoly powers, raise the

rates and this days the wages for their employees through an unsustainable level. so what the employees have to do is pass those costs on to the consumer. you know, you just have to ask, brenda, where have unions made an industry more competitive? i can think of examples where they haven't, airlines, steel, auto, across the board, governments they put out of business, if even can argue they've made it more competitive. i'd stand upor unions and i can't find an example. >> prices have ge up in all of those industries and you say, fast foods, too cheap? >> yeah, i mean, i'll tell you what, i don't actually believe that we'll see unions at the fast food restaurants, but i actually wish we would. because, the fact is you could make these jobs more attractive to 12 million unemployed, you know, we've actually seen two little inflation over the last four years and that's why the fed had to turn to some of these extreme measures to boost the enomy.

and fast food isoo cheap. in fact, i'll tell you what, if anybody comes out of an mcdonald's restaurant complaining about the higher price, they're eaten too much and essentially risking their health. >> brenda: but that was by the teenagers. jonas, unions do have momentum right now. do you think it's going to have impact and raise prices for us? >> it will raise the prices for us. it would have to take off. you can't unionize this-- we don't want to make the lowest jobs and becoming more attractive. that's how you rever the natural flow and reverses everything, and get a pension for wking at mcdonald's? and it's a transie work and the union concept is a career where you have a skill like trucking or flying an airplane and you're going to be there for 30 years and accrue benefits. no one is going to pay dues into a job they're going to be at for a year, six months and no one is going to join in

union. it could raise prices if it were to happen. >> brenda: according to the union wins-- >> the family struggling at mcdonald's addicted to the dollar menu and the on food stamps unfortunately. and the workers themselves. see mcdonald's take the 7,000 restaurants and move to automated and eliminating jobs. so the workers are going t suffer in the battle between big labor and big business. and the workers, the consumers and teas not right. not every jobeeds to be unionized in america. >> brenda: but, tobin, workers point out it's hard to live on $16,000 a year in new york city, which is essentially what they're making. >> well, it's hard to live in new york city on 16,000 a month let me tell you. the bigger issue, this is a new york issue. if you look at the overall economy and overall states we're having states move to right to work state. less unionization. and so, this is a new york

centric problem. you know, the issue of unions, this happens to be the most unionized labor force in the united states. so it sort of lends it self-- they're doing themselves a disservice and if you look at the structure in europe where mcdonald's is very large, le mcdonald's hamburger is a dollar and a half more so that's really added labor costs. >> brenda: gary b, we're the not just talking about fast food, we've seen it at wal-mart, at airports, at the shipping ports and they're flexing their muscles. >> absolutely, and they have the backing of the current administration, and i don't dismiss what jonas says that unions are going to these quote, unquote, highly skilled. i member, i worked in a cardboard box factory, i had to join the teamsters and i worked as a supermarket cashier, i had to join the retail clerks union. so could it get to fast food? absolutely. you're right, brenda, it can

because they're flexing their muscle and have the backing of the current political environment. >> brenda: larry. >> brenda, the younes need to reinvent themselves. if they need to get into my skilled jobs and earn higher wages and that's the key. >> you're right and the idea of organizing the lowest end of the structure here is, as jonas says, the average lifetime of employee i think is nine mons in the fast food busins so it's antithetical and-- >> these an't coal mines and slaughter houses, brenda, these are folding sweaters at the gap, cashiers. >> we need to see more unions in china where they could make a difference, they could lift wages and improve living standards there. >> absolutely. >> and keep chinese, work forces from taking jobs away from america. >> good luck with that. >> brenda: thank you for the debate. and sandy victims facing devastation one month later, so is this any time for the

united nations to be using them as a fund raising tool? the cavuto gang is all over that one at the bottom of the hour. up here first, forget fees in

>> forget the pain, if we fall into the financial ditch. a new regulation in the the health care law might mauck you down right sick right now. the white house just announcing plans to slap health insurers with a fee if they sell insurance dictated

by the president's health care law and larry says you'll pay for it no matter where you live, huh? >> that's right. that's right, you know, administrative costs and health care are already skyrocketing and this is going it to get past the consumer just like everybody else. we already see skyrocketing health care costs, 14% is administrated, it's just too much. >> some parts of the law lower prices and is it net neutral, basically? >> i think the only given is that the country as a whole is goingo spend mor on health care andore people are going to have insurance one way or another, gun point are fine or whatever it is, but the actual premiums among are necessarily going to change. although there are plenty of things to raise your premium, not allowing the insurance company to reject, is going to raise premiums and some premiums are paid for like a tax next year, on capital

gains for wealthy people, it's not health care payment, it's tax moneys to subsidize your premium. the premium is not going up, but overall we'll spend more as a nation. >> brenda: you say we'll save money. the cost of the running the exchanges is incidental than having 60 million americans without health insurance, that costs not just money, but lives. and however, i'll acknowledge ere is a cost, i don't see why a state like arizona, which just take this to the feds, why should they get off for free. if they're too block head today run their own exchange, we shld charge them the fee and that's something that will be passed along. i think in net-net though, i think you'll discover that this is a fee you won't notice. >> brenda: gary b, you agree with na? >> i do not, brenda. i have one overriding principle. when the government is involved, and invariably costs go up.

look at any, for example, any construction problem in the federal government domain over the past, what, 200 years, that's come in on budget or on time. the government gets involved, things get mucked up. and they don't know how to run health care exchanges. they don't know how to build bridges and stuff like that, or one other thing, if the price is kept wn, as a couple of my panels have said, then, supply is limited. so you can have low cost for health care and wait nine months to see a gynecologist or higprices and get in tomorrow. >> toby, starting january 1, a whole bunch of fees from healthare are going to be kicking in. >> yeah, a lot. and think we are missing the big point here. 3.5% fee is nothing compared to not being able to medically underwrite this, in this law, they see that every insurance company right by age, family size and tobacco use and literally like the company

selling life insurance policies after somebody died or after a home insurance after it burned down and we can see the premiums up 40% in many parts, that's what happened in new york. >> brenda: and that's got to be the last word. coming up. >> i need your attention please. >> brenda: boy, talk about a fema fiasco, sandy victims still waiting for help. lashing out at fema workers in a town hall this week and find out how you can avoid relying on the government agency if a disaster strikes near you. . >> fema ain't doing nothing. still, they keep going aund in a circle and they go denied,

>> predictions. >> we saw people coming back with e issues and depend on yourself and don't depend on-- >> gary b, bull or bear on that. >> and your prictions? >> unions can't stop the big mac. and mcdonald's, an extraordinary company. >> brenda: jonas bull or bear. >> bear. >> brenda: gary b, your prediction? >> holiday season has started. for some son and i think the stock is back to $300 by valentine's day. >> brenda: and larry, bull or bear? >> bear, not enough for my taste. >> brenda: larry, your prediction? >> financial d-day sends