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melissa: i am melissa francis enters what is a "money" tonight. the rich are shelling out more in taxes than they have in 30 years. does this finally count as their fair share? they have big congress to tax them more. one of those numbers is with me now to explain why. and betting big on bad loans. investors are piling into securities. does that sound familiar? subprime loan, anyone? he will tell you why this is the real problem behind student debt that nobody else is talking about. and google airports to delays. top airport officials say the worst is already happening from sequester. really? will break out the "money" truth meter and check out the claims. even when i say it is not, it is always about "money."

melissa: first, today's market moment. even as those dreaded cuts move, stocks are unafraid taking another step toward the all-time high. shrugging off economic data from china reversing early losses. the major indices closing with modest gains. but the question on many investors minds, will tomorrow be the big day? the dow 38 points away from hitting its all-time high. let's talk taxes. how much do you think is enough for anyone? rich or poor? after hearing the president hammer home the rich paying their fair share, income families are paying more taxes than they have in 30 years. we aren't here to just report on that, our mission on "money" is to challenge the story you are

hearing everywhere else. so what is your impact is even more this year, will it help or hurt? let's crunch the numbers. a group of american millionaires that want higher taxes on the wealthy. and senior policy analyst for tax policy at the heritage foundation. eric, you know i will start with you, you want to pay even higher taxes, why? >> i think i should pay higher taxes. melissa: why? >> it is basic. we will all have to contribute to solve this problem, and it is perfectly reasonable of people who benefited the most from the system over the past half a century and continue to do so contribute their fair share. melissa: i am sure you know if you confiscate the wealth of the wealthiest 1%, 2%, even 5%, it would not solve the problem. if you confiscated all the wealth. speakers will not be one individual thing, it wil to be e combination of factors. higher revenues have to be part

of the solution, and i think the wealthy who have benefited enormously from the tax system over the last 25-30 years should be contributing more. melissa: what about the idea they are already contributing more? that is the point of this whole segment and a lot of the administration information, top 1% of households paying an average rate of 35.5%. 27.2% on the top rate. even if you bought into what eric said, the wealthier are already paying more. so you want more on the more? >> the treasury is still accepting donations so anytime you want to pay more, make your donation. warren buffett can do it as well. we are reaching all-time highs for the tax rate because of recent tax increases. obamacare raised income tax rates and on the top income tax rate as high as it has been

since 1986. tax on capital gains and dividends reduced deductions and limited to personal exemptions. add that up, it is driving taxes higher than they have been. melissa: so the wealthier are already paying more. how much more deep in the wealthy should pay? >> let's be clear about something. the debate isn't about the level of taxation, per se. it is not about tax rates, it is about deductions and exemptions. the loopholes that litter our code. the average tax rate you are referring to doesn't apply to somebody like me who gets the majority of their income from investment. in the last 10 years i have never paid more than 16 or 17% of my income in taxes. melissa: that is a huge luxury. the loopholes argument doesn't hold. more than a few people by yourself.

>> let's be clear, and applies e very wealthy, the top .1%. melissa: can't lower the rate and close loopholes? >> why not just close the loopholes? we need additional income, i think most people think it is unfair. melissa: so you want the wealthy to pay more. you think the wealthy should pay even more than they already are. >> people like myself should pay more. melissa: curtis, let me ask you, what would be the impact on the economy if we went ahead with that? the "wall street journal" says the top 20% of income earners account for 30% of all spending. does that indicate they can afford to pay more? or does it tell you they did 38% of the spending so we tax them even more, they will stop helping the economy. >> that tax rate includes the tax you paid before your capital gains and dividends, it does include you.

if we raise taxes higher, we will slow the economy, will hurt middle-class and low-income families that everybody wants to help because it will reduce the opportunities they have. job opportunities and wage growth. not because we want to see a rate pay lower taxes, but because it hurts those of us. >> again, the origin of this is the observation that with the new tax increases, the wealthier are going to be paying among the highest rate they paid since 1979. if you go back to 1979 and look at the 30 years after 1979, the average american sought in income gain of about 32%. whereas th the top 1% so income gain of 155%. we have seen this enormous widening of wealth in the country. why should anybody be surprised seeing income inequality grow with people like me who are making money off of money we

already have ar our pang at suca lower rate. what i want to hear is do you think income inequality is a problem? and if so, do you think it makes sense to tax the wealthy at a lower rate? melissa: eric, go ahead and respond to that, you get the last word. >> i do not think we can tax our way to solving it. we cannot give it to others and make the problem go away. income inequality arises from many factors and largely a problem from the tax code. we need economic growth. melissa: elevate people rather than punish people. >> exactly. melissa: thank you for a spirited debate. here is our "money" question today. our families paying their fair share, or should they pay even more? most think they are paying enough, but we want to hear from more of you. you can like us on facebook or follow me on twitter.

all right, the never ending battle that is the keystone@pipeline could be one step closer to passing and some would say president obama wants shovel ready stimulus spending right now. in a friday night news, the state department released a report basically showing there would not be any significant environmental damage if the pipeline moves forward. so what are we waiting for? more on this, john kingston. what impact do you think this report will have? >> he said this will make it tougher. you can figure it will make it a lot tougher for the environment list perspective to stop. melissa: so what do you think happens from here? there has been a report before. >> this could easily get caught up in sequester policy. if there's any kind of movement on the negotiation and sequester, one of the things is

okay, i will give you keystone excel pipeline in exchange for some other things, so it could become a bargaining chip in the other white house discussions. melissa: who do you think he means? they want to pipeline, the job, companies wanted, people who need energy want it. the only people fighting against it are environmentalists who don't even have the state department document. >> the conference was disrupted by a protester, i know that for the limitless vistas like the line in the sand, this is their biggest issue. they fill in a second term the obama administration is going to give them more of what they want and this is quite frankly the number one issue. it is not cap-and-trade, not a carbon tax, this is their biggest issue. they're looking at the obama administration to give them this. melissa: is interesting they would die on this mountain

because it doesn't go through, does not mean the oil is not going to be harvested. >> they would argue differently. they argue they can oppose the northern gateway pipeline, that is very controversial. it would take a lot of the oil. but you're right, the rail option taking a lot of oil out of north dakota hasn't been used that much, that can happen. another big project, transcanada pipeline has a gigantic west east natural gas line that has been losing a lot of business because of the marsalis. every indication that they're going to turn into a crew line will take the oil from the oil sands that would otherwise go to the keystone xl. that could give the president an out. it is going to go through anyway. melissa: what is your pet if it is going to happen or not? >> ca chanda is probably our thd

best ally. it would cause a serious rift between those nations if this was to stop. that is what may end up in the end. melissa: you have been at the top of the energy industry for so long, cannot stop without asking you about the new energy secretary. i heard him described as pro-nuke, pro-fracking, but alarmed by climate change. those are tough things to reconcile. >> pro-fracking because natural gas is a bridge fuel to a more renewable future whether it is more nuclear, more advanced than doubles, so it is actually not in conflict. some environmentalists are not happy because he is pro-fracking. but others are okay. a new administrator named today, everybody seems to say she is a good listener, certainly more

enthused about her. melissa: as somebody who drives a car cause i feel better about him? >> i do not think is going to make much difference. melissa: all right. thank you so much. time for today's fuel gauge report. futures hitting fresh lows for the year. citing concerns about falling global demand for crude. oil down for a third session. and transocean boardwalks restarted dividend for shareholders. carl icahn has been campaigning for the move. beginning in june, transocean would pay a dividend every quarter. and texas pitching retail gas business. the company said it will help expand the presence in oil exploration. along with a handful of power plants and energy trading unit. shares closed up 3.5% on the

news. up next on "money," that's delinquencies and default. what could possibly go wrong? the sequel to the mortgage crisis that no one else is talking about except us. more "money" coming up.

♪ melissa: when you hear about student loan debt you may not care if you own any student loans but guess what, you need to care no matter what and here is why. never mortgage-backed securities fiasco? you if you didn't buy them or trade then you get hit when the economy went under. there is a new security in town and it is called the student loan.security. i've even heard about that? investors issuing up to $30 billion of these securities this year. the catch is more than $8 billion worth of these loans are in default. are we looking at an education bubble? jonathan hoenig is a fox news contributor. jonathan, what do you think, is this a bubble? >> at certain looks like it, melissa. major government intervention

into this marketplace. probably more than anything, investors who are reaching for yield right now, searching for anything that pays regular interest, a regular dividend and a lot of these securities, student loans, junk bonds, mlp, business development companies, people are searching for yields, and hany pickup over caches everything you see a lot of interest in tradable student debt right now. melissa: the fact they have been packaged like this tells you there is demand for them, possibly the people who own them don't want to hold back because people are defaulting. it is not that much in the grand scheme of things. could it get bigger from here? >> student debt is actually quite big. bigger than the amount of credit card debt outstanding. my fear is just like ethanol, mortgages, it is government involvement in the marketplace

distorting the perception of risk and ultimately very disastrous outcomes for investors and for those taking out the loans. 35% delinquency rate, government stands behind 90% of these loans so of course when the bill comes due, when interest rates rise, the economy starts to slow, you can see an implosion not unlike what you saw with the mortgage debt earlier in the last 10 years. melissa: do they repackage or the private loans or the federal loans as well? >> both as well. that is what is so damaging is this is probably in people's portfolios that they are not even aware of. just as we so mortgage debt very safe, almost government-backed in the days leading up to the housing meltdown, i think there is a sense student debt if there was a problem, delinquencies rates started to shoot up, you would see government come in with some type of assistance the

same way those investors who held mortgage-backed from fannie and freddie got bailed out as well. melissa: even if you don't get hit from the bubble bursting, you will get hit with a taxpayer bailing it out. so one way or the other, our audience is going to pay. >> that is a very real fear. the talk of student loan debt bubble has been out there for quite some time. it really hasn't occurred just yet, but as you pointed out, some delinquencies rates are inching up, and so starved for yield in this environment government has mutilated interest rates down to zero, they are oftentimes buying debt because they don't understand the risks behind it. melissa: there is no asset that backs it. unlike the mortgage fiasco, there was an asset underneath this, there is nothing in this case. they really didn't offer anything as collateral, so to

speak. >> one of the interesting parts is the federal student loans in which usually credit loans are not required for extremely low interest rates. the private part of the student loan market, which a tiny little sliver which requires credit checks has much higher interest rates. that goes to show perhaps the real market, the free market is showing student loan debt being much more risky than what the government regulators and bureaucrats would have us believe. that is where the correction will come. once the subsidies start again, reality reassert itself in the market comes tumbling down. melissa: something to look out for and be careful of. thanthank you for coming on. i bet you didn't know about that one. next on "money," wisconsin is ready to dig deep on iron ore. governor scott walker may hit restrictions on excavation to boost the state's economy. but we will tell you why to

bring more problems than it actually solves. plus airport security lines are out the door, teachers thrown to the curb, white house officials say the sequester is already hitting hard. but the truth has a way of running things. we run the claims through the "money" truth meter coming up. ♪

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kind of makes you wonder this is the right industry at the right time. the man behind the bill is republican state senator, and he joins me now. senator, what about that estimate? that has me really worrisome. prices could fall by 50% because of the supply. we certainly have seen that with natural gas. >> sure. we passed this bill for the future. and certainly commodity prices have their peaks and valleys, but over time we think this is going to be a very good enterprise to have here in the state of wisconsin. our neighbors to the east and west, they have had robust iron mining industries. we feel we can do the same in wisconsin. melissa: have you run the numbers based on that kind of decline in price? that is really precisely what has happened with this tremendous glut of natural gas we have seen in the market due to fracking creating a ton of jobs? at the same time a lot of

producers back off because prices fell so rapidly. >> we think we'r we are going te the low-cost loser here if we are able to get this permit, which could take three, three and half years. but we do think we will have the low-cost producer in the great lakes states if we're able to get this mine permitted. melissa: speaking of getting those permits not surprisingly environmentalism are not excited about this. they claim over 900 million-ton of waste will be dumped in the wetlands and streams of the back river watershed, produce the same acid mine training that has resulted in fish by threes for mercury and wild rice dead zone for 100 miles downstream in minnesota. a claim they have put everywhere. what do you say? >> this is a 21st century iron ore mining bill. our current environment will stand as which are very high in the state of wisconsin, they are contained in this bill.

those metrics, those numbers that companies have to meet in order to get permits in wisconsin do not change at all. so we believe we have wisconsin environmental standards in the bill and it gives us an opportunity to have an investor who will invest a billion and a half dollars. it is rare for a state to have a company that will come in and invest a billion and a half dollars financing the project, that is the opportunity we have in wisconsin. we think we are ready to tackle that. melissa: how many jobs does it create, what is the boost to the economy? >> the construction phase would take about two years, about 2000 jobs that would be created, after that 700 jobs projected to be created directly in the mine site. 2000 jobs to those 700 jobs that are at the mine site, so literally thousands of jobs and some of those are being created immediately after if we get the job past this week to the governor's desk for his

signature, some of those jobs get created immediately as a result of the permitting process. a thorough environmental review that has to be done, jobs created immediately and hundreds if not thousands if we get a permit issued for this project. melissa: of course you heard about the new epa administrator put forth today. she has a very tough record having been said the department in the last administration. she has ushered through countless rules on mercury and uncirculated powerplants, does that change any of your plans, does it give you cause? >> it doesn't change our plans. melissa: does it worry you? >> certified. the epa has been very objection is. i live in an area that brings a lot of cool for me so it we saw happen with those that are very harmful to the paper industry especially those that earn coal,

as we are very concerned, but at some point people in this country will say we want jobs, we want economic development and we can do that and have a clean environment. they are not mutually exclusive. that has been the debate over this bill. they have portrayed it jobs versus the economy. i think they can work together. melissa: thank you for coming on, good luck to you. coming up on "money," top white house officials think the worst is already happening from the sequester. but they might have much trouble with the lie detector test as this guy. >> you are free to go. >> good, because i have a hot date tonight. a date. dinner alone. watching tv alone. all right, i'm going to sit at home and auto ladies in the victoria's secret catalog. sears catalog. melissa: we run their claims through the "money" truth meter coming up. we will be right back.

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secretary janet the public, this morning when talking of the dire impact we will all feel. >> we are already seeing the effects of some of the ports of entry, big airports, for example, some of them have very long lines this weekend. i want to say o'hare. i want to say lax. i want to say atlanta, but i would have to check. the new york airports guthrie okay, but that could have been temporary. melissa: really? already seeing the effects? i don't know. here to help me money fact check is our own peter barnes. new york city. i don't know. i don't see lines and lines and lines behind you. what is it like there. >> reporter: a look off in the distance. right now i don't think there is anyone in line security. that said the administration did

not mention leg or the airport when it came to problems with government sequestration. this morning, as we just heard, jen and the pot on a single that no hair, lax. there were not aware of any long lines or delays. they said that they believe things were running as normal. that said, very quickly, let me say it's just a short time ago the customs and port pretension agency issued a news release stated that over the weekend there were no delays the ports of entry this time imaging jfk airport in new york and miami. in some instances people had to wait more than three hours. they said there were problems, but the version of those problems has changed somewhat. here at laguardia.

melissa: president obama under fire for comments he made on friday. just listen and not ask you to react. >> all of the folks who are cleaning the floors at the capitol, now that congress has left someone is going to be vacuuming and cleaning as flores and take -- taking out the garbage. they just got a pay cut and have to figure how to manage that. melissa: peter, was that the case? >> it depends upon what your definition of is is. [laughter] so there is a fight here over what constitutes a pay cut. the architect of the capital released a statement last week, and then there was an e-mail obtained today by some news organizations saying no -- none of that janitors the capitol, for example, would be furloughed or hours or be cut back. however, it appears that they might not be getting any overtime during this time.

the white house is pushing back and saying, well, if you are an hourly worker and make overtime there is no pay cut. melissa: education secretary arnie duncan made some comments. let's listen to those. >> there are teachers now who are getting pink slips and notices that they cannot come back. >> i don't know about that one. people have looked at that one and we have yet to have any names to go along with that. >> and he is eating his words today. he is taking that back today. he was at a public event. he said that language is important. he apologized for his comments. he said, when i said bank slips, that was the wrong word. should have used the job eliminations. should have been clear, and so now he has taken that back. we have an institution down here , melissa, i mean, the "washington post" has a fact

check column. from zero to four, arnie duncan. for pinocchios. for pinocchio's. the maximum. the president got upgraded from least 2-4 for his comments about the senator's. melissa: the people they're even talking about it? melissa: to they even know there is supposed to be a business? >> i went around asking passengers what they thought. and barry and scientifically i asked a couple of passengers and they both told me that they believed the administration was trying to scare people with the consequences that the sequestration. they thought that this was the administration trying to further the political ideology. that said, when we talk about the airports we have to be fair to both sides here. the administration is saying that the sequestration affects really will not be felt for about a month, the furlough will take effect, and they said that in some 30 days' time that is when you see the consequences. almost dire.

melissa: let me ask you how truthful you think the administration's claims have been so far above what was going to happen today. >> i would have been more charitable than the washington post and given them a three because at some point the administration will be correct and some of these numbers. these are real. billions of dollars. as david just said, they will have an impact at some point. melissa: at some point we will see a 90 minute delay and deacons say this is because of sequestration. i know it. coming upon "money," the u.s. may let us -- let up on iranian sanctions in exchange for you and access to key nuclear sites. but as secret fleet of scrapyard oil tankers gives little reason for them to cave. details on the illicit scheme to bring sanctions committee next. a the end of the day is all about "money." ♪ ♪

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man: ♪ all, all, all in together now ♪ ♪ we camake it better now ♪ ♪ c'mon, can we do it? chorus: ♪ yeah, you know that we can! ♪ ♪ we'll rope it up ♪ 'cause we know hoump ♪ can help make you and your child healthier. search "we can" to find doable tips and activities that you can use every day. ♪ melissa: now on to the middle east. world powers are offering relief to economic sanctions in return for local operation.

the u.n. is pushing for access to an iranian military base where, it is believed tests are being done relating to the development of a nuclear bomb, but they're using scrapyard tankers to ship oil to china showing a deliberate effort to get around the very sanctions that they have been slapped with. so what is the incentive to cooperate? with the now, is nice to see you. let's start sorting through some of this news that is coming out. first of all, do you think we have a prayer of investigating, looking into, and during this facility or is this one of those carrots that this thing about that is not real? >> well, you know, i think it is a carrot, really, because there has been no evidence that over how many years it takes, is the deaf -- definition of insanity? they're not going to show us, and even when they did commit to excel many different steps and guides that you know there really aren't going to be showing us where the real live

their facilities are. so i think it is just a waste of time. but, you know, it is by the diplomatic process. melissa: i guess. a process that has dragged on and on, as you pointed out. we were looking into the picture. where we so focused on this one side in particular? >> at the end of the day this is where we have got an intelligence that they may be producing material and our intelligence tells us that there may be something there. now, at the end of the day we find that they are distracting. our policy of sanctions has not been accepted demand we have not been able -- revenues to have the just to verify strategy. even when we know. melissa: in the meantime we're hearing news reports that they're able to trade this is an

amazing story. melissa: at the end of the day they have a greek businessman who purchases these ships that were basically purchased 3 percent above what they call for scrap metal based in the uae . send his ship right outside the shore of the uae. the marigold, one of the ships carrying millions of barrels of oil comes near his ship. they do a ship-to-ship transfer. and then his ship then goes off to china to all of a sudden my records showing a couple of weeks later reported outside where it is oil was slightly deposited at given to the chinese to submit the -- subvert the sanctions. melissa: it makes you feel like they're not effective at all. i have to ask you. what do you think of secretary of state caregiving $250 million in aid to egypt while the u.s. is dealing with this sequestration get? >> again.

and i cannot help but wonder what our policy is. just meeting, and you see the egyptian government moving more toward the real islamist groups. meanwhile, we want to give them 250 million actually, he almost promise that we may be giving them a billion. prop up their economy. do we really want the muslim brotherhood regime that is anti-american, anti-israel, anti-semitic to be propped up? basically they are like how moss and we are basically finding them and propping them up. that is not a policy in our security interest. i believe letting them fail and our real allies on the ground and egypt brunt -- liberals to allow women groups are not putting a cartoon saying john kerry is sort of a pottery muslim brotherhood member wondering why we're supporting the oppressors. melissa: thank you for coming

on, as always. >> any time. thanks. melissa: next, if you have not heard of the harlem shake you might be living in a cave. the absurd dance has made its way into an australian gold mined. they are getting a big pile of lead from their employers. wait until you see this one. you can never have too much "money." ♪ what's next?

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melissa: it's time for a little fun with "spare change." we are joined by dennis kneale and liz macdonald. first up, forbes has released its 2013 list of billionaires and i was not on it. there is a lot of new money on the list. like tory burch and dolce and gabbana. and the first place goes to someone with $72 billion. warren buffett dropped to number four with $53 billion. what the thing? were you surprised by anyone on the list? >> the top guys, you know, i love that tory burch is the

second youngest billionaire, right after the woman who invented spanx. melissa: dennis, were you on the list? >> no, but it shows how the rest of the world is taking a part in wealth creation. >> a record number of >> 386 of them are across a check from one of the poorest pockets in the world. melissa: i would love to be dead last on the list. let's try to fix this microphone while we do this next one here. i would love to be behind him on the list anywhere, i'm not denigrating. and next up, losing your job

over dancing. check out this video of this work are doing the harlem shake on the job. saying that performance resulted in a minor safety issue. and somewhere fired for watching. [talking over each other] >> i think a lot of people would be proud. >> this is the third or fourth incident in which people have gotten in trouble or lost their jobs. i question if they woulddhave the same reaction if these guys were doing the swan lake dance. [laughter] >> i think you're silly if you post it on youtube. if that's the moral of the story, don't post it online. >> i don't see anything going on there that's bad. give me a break. >> it looks like the safety dance there.

[talking over each other] [talking over each other] >> they are just a bunch of fuddy-duddies who don't like the harlem shake. [laughter] melissa: if you drink more than 14 glasses of wine per week, you are 60% less likely to get sick and especially if you drink red wine, they say. but it is not the alcohol itself, but it's because of the high level of antioxidants in wine. what do you think about this, dennis? >> i drink a good 21 or 28 glasses a week, so i am doubly insured against that. no, not really. i don't write at all. >> i always think the red wine is good for you, then i convince myself that it's good for you, but then i'm on the fifth one.