is coming, it will be ntastic. spring came spring came on wednesday. it is freezing here in new york. phil the groundhog could be roadkill soon. >> we just need a better system. melissa: but really he's going to sue a wild animal? >> once he got served, it was 50 something degrees. melissa: he is such a cute groundhog. so as we wrap up the week, tom sullivan has a few words for anyone who bemoaned the high cost of government.

>> i don't understand all the commotion about jones, espeally if they are used by law enforcement. you mentioned that people think you are crazy if you are for jones. but what about the privacy base? think about it. police five helicopters over your house now. they have cameras. do you have a problem with that? they are useful and valuable as a law enforcement tool they can help look for lost people and bad guys and their quick on their response. the fuel and maintenance costs is low than the cost of a helicopter. as a pilot, i want them flown on the under the watchful eye of the faa. but let's help law enforcement do a better job of keeping our neighborhoods safe.

melissa: thank you, tom. be sure to catch it at seven and 10:00 p.m. on saturday and sunday, the tom sullivan show. i will be a guest this weekend. happy friday and thank you for joining us. have a great cruise. [lghter] anythingo help. good night. >> more than 1,000 students have gathered to steady liberty should even be in college? if they work as interns are they exploited? if they are illegal should it be a quicker path to citizenship? wh should the rules be? >> a trip back to college.

tonight. [applause] >> i'm in washington d.c. for the biggest ever students for liberty conference. more than 1,000 are here to debate the conditions for people needed to be free and %-prosper is by doinghey internships. how many of you have been intern's? how many of you want to be? how many would do it for no pay? most of ready. that is a good thing oftentimes they are unpaid ron but that is called

exploitation our next guest argues they earn nothing and learn little but with their guest says they are great and i will start with him. it is a voluntary exchange. >> be clear it is not just getting experience and training they get a job but multiple tim a requirement to break into white-collar fields. john: the first one if they do what a bunch of times, so what? >> the whole idea of a fair wage that basic value is threatened with the rise of unpaid labor. >> because they work for

free they take jobs of those that would be paid. >> they have no trace of that is all that is out there. john: it sounds terrible. if they work for nothing it is abuse. >> i would like all of you to be paid but what is compensation? if you are these in turn for the stossel show that it help your career if you are in turn for rain news bureau john: you help people find internships. >> but i give tuesday night -- seven hours per week. >> they will not pay? >> but they are losing their own employees they don't have the money you very have the internal not pay them or

not at all. john: i built my career on people like you. i do not think it was exploiting new. i needed research help and my employer laughed i would ask a college and i was surprised many were eager to, but afterwards they said i learned more from you than college and i didn't have to pay anything i had to pay tuition that ripped me off. >> tel much to make? [laughter] >> not enough to pay $7.20 per hour? john: not that time. >> if i had to pay i would hire the full-time employee. >> why is the best companies

flight google treat them as an investment? they tried to hire 70%. john: good for them but who were we to decide? what about voluntary contracts? if they agree what business is a the government to interfere? >> the also got 14 year-old son of the cold wind. there has to be appointed. >> this is the 21st century. john: if you volunteer is that freedom? >> i grabbed as a liberal in the '60s now i am a libertarian democrats these to be press secretary because i in understanthe

argument how we exploit workers of the world that they need to have the backing of the government demand john pay his interns but these people are not so stupid they cannot decide if they are exploited. it is a contract that is understood. >> no coercive power is used it as a libertarian stream -- dream. john: the obama labor department can now with the explicit rules if you don't pay them there is criteria. the employer derives no immediate advantage. [laughter] on occasion the operations must be impeded? i had in turn to impede did my work i tried to get rid

of them. >> if fox wanted you to a news show and said do it underpaid and then we throw use and academic credit then we will decide. would you except that? john: maybe not at this point* in my career it is my choice. american freedom. >> the department of labor uses this exhibit meant the white house uses them. >> it is only for profit. >> it has been the loss sinc1947 they have done nothing but reiterate the basic regulations. >> i run a nonprofit if this rule were in forced it would kill my program. >> my name is christine and i am from texas state university. to be practicing dietitian

we have to go through dietetic internship. most ounpaid except government. john: she is forced to do it. >> this is the real question. it is not if shes her if she is not paid but the fines compensation trade -- training, or on the resonate? i now want them to be under the government to say you cannot do it unless you are paid her could you thank you cannot decide for yourselves if you want to me you paid with dollars or your resonate? i know u are not stupid i have worked with you for the last 24 years. you know if you want to volunteer your labor. >> have a question for ross

perlin reno market's move to equilibrium to find the correct price and we know if a person paid below the wage he would get on the market for thtrue value then another company would raise the wage to capture profit. why does this work so well but suddenly the market doesn't work? is it that they received non monetary compensation? >> it is a requirement that is a virtual gateway blocking access pay-to-play system. it is a discretionary effect that people go to it as a

race to the bottom leading us with record levels of unemployment and unpaid internships. >> did you have a bad experience? you said you were unppid. [laughter] [applause] you have done pretty well. you have a book that exploits the perceived problem. you have the mentality they are being exploited. they have enough sense to make decisions for themselves. >> i and actually a college dropout because by and the internships success story. what do you think of something like that? i and my business because college was teaching me nothing and my internship taught me everything. >> but the reality is more

people are caught in trap with serial and turns and unemployment is at record high. even though there are good examples. john: if we ban that it would be an opportunity as well. thank you ross perlin and terry michael. wire people even in college? many are getting ripped off. this is america.

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[cheers and applause] john: we're back with college students fro the "students for liberty" conference. i hate to say is but you are suckers you pay college tuition and getting ripped off. that is probably not fair. some will get jobs bause of your education but many will pay $200,000 and get little more th that. this is why dale stephens dropped out and has the web site uncollege.org and his book hack education.

what do you mean? there is a reason people go to college. >> that is what society says you need to do but that means you have to learn what they tell you the not what you want to interest you. johni just want comic books and girls i wouldn't have learned anything. >> maybe you start a comic book about girls. [laughter] >> you tell me your doing better? >> there is a community around the world who is actively doing creative things with their education one dropped out now is an artist and getting commissions.

summer building solar powered computers but without paying the high cost of college. i did not go to middle school or high school. john: your parents let you leave school? >> they were not fans of the idea but i thought if i leave for one year what is the big loss? if i go back school will be there. john: you even took college courses? you could just not pay? >> professors were more than happy to have students who were interested in learning and sharing knowledge. john: i would have goofed off. >> that's okay. john: students? comments or questions?

>> i go to school in michigan at madonna university like the material girl. [laughter] i go to school for nursing some go to premed or sciences but don't you feel it makes sense to learn basic human anatomy that is thessential to a medical profession or even if you study biology? >> you are going into use surgery if you are fresh out of medical school or the bears watching 20 years? i would take the nurse. there is background and knowledge that is handy absolutely but the idea that mes from the classroom should be changed and we should spend more time being

practical in the real world. >> that makes sense but if you don't have the background knowledge and you just know what you'd do by experiencing these firsthand that means you don't know how to fix your mistakes because he did and get the basic technical knowledge at school. >> my challenge is is the best way to sit in the classroom paying exorbitant amounts of money or could we get back more efficiently? john: ne person. >> ideas graduated from school in indiana but is the engineering degree in human studie just as valid? it is not the same thing where does that misconception come from? to make sure people are

wasting thousands of dollars? >> linking unemployment based on the major the most unemployed was psychology. john: i majored in psychology. next question? [laughter] >> i go to the york college of pennsylvania senate isn't schooling only practical to start your own business? i have to be certified to teach. >> to make an argument against the credentials. >> above a job out of college but i cannot teach a by don't. >> may be teaching and a private school. >> drugs and drinking and whole foods but who should be

john: we're back with the "students for liberty" conference to debate immigration. 12 million people are said to be here illegally. what should we do? what about the future roles? libertarians say bring them illegally they were cardin many bring a valuable skills but on the other hand, someone to kill us now america is the welfare state someone to kill us our next guest is run federation for american immigration reform and veronique de rugy says it should be easier to come here but you say that because you snuck and from france in just became a

citizen. congratulations wise to let more foreigners and? >> emigrants whether high skill or low skill is a gift to this country. john: some are freeloaders. >> there is a small cost but the tremendous work they do, with the data and they increased wages for americans. john: but first you had to fill out this form to become a citizen which the whole process took you out over 10 years but the questions seem ridiculous. heavy ever been a member of the communist part a terrorist organization. >> especially coming from

france. [laughter] john: did you work for the nazi government between 1933? if you did these things why would you answer honestly? [laughter] have you been a habitual drunkard, a prostitute, and married to more than one person at a time, like gambling the legally. why did they ask this? >> your federal government out work. we're in a room with libertarian thinkers but there is a problem that in the pure libertarian sense to have the idea there should be the unrestricted movement of human beings trans global individual liberty by the way the al qaeda thinks that is sandy

-- just fine. john: but keep them now. >> what about the guy who was struggling to keep a job with wage credibility and in a downward spiral because of excess levels of immigration? that may not be this zero sum game but there are zero -- consequences to kill legal immigration. john: yes, a veronie de rugy subsidy is paid less because you are here. >> the data overwhelmingly shows by increased economic growth but the duty is even low-skilled immigrants are good for this economy. they are benefiting not just peoplelike me or people

working in washington d.c. because they know their lawn, watched their children but this is not the zero sum game and the data is clear it is a no-brainer. john: of the immigrant pains my house we are richer? >> yes. because hes cheaper e makes construction and prices lower for all of us. john: adits minder standing everything cost less and we get richer. >> to focus on the gdp if we would provide amnesty to 12 million in legal immigrants yes a total sum of products manufactured would grow. >> the more people in the

bigger it gets but it is abstract but it doesn't mean anything for the public because if you find a the government with low-end jobs gdp is rising but opportunities for meaningful growth are eroding. john: what would you do with the 12 million who are here? >> you remove them as identified by law and allow them to leave voluntarily. if we have the incentives in place they would self to port with attrition. john: make it so hard they leave on their own? >> dry up the smorgasbord of benefits like driver's license and sanctuary cities >> the idea we could keep people out is one that has

never worked the government spend smarter on border security and people are still coming but. john: just deport them. >> assuming the government can do anything correctly. [laughter] [applause] by the way if you are worried about the welfare state that is an argument to get rid of it rather than keep people out. [applause] john: if you are not legal you are not eligible. summer automatically like kidsn school and hospital emergencies but food stamps stamps, medicaid they are not eligible. >> one thing to say is

federation for american immigration reform we are bipartisan 501(c)(3) we're not anti-immigrant just somebody on a diet is anti-food is regulation. john: but they pay taxes and don't collect welfare. >> the cost of illegal immigration last year was $113 billion in spee areas of health care, education and incarceration. john: you don't include the cost of paying taxes and starting google. >> here we are with libertarians the focal pot* is limited government chaldean rejected thinking and be careful what you ask for the new push for an --

amnesty because the overwhelming majority is %-dependent. government john: how many are not from the united states? how many would like to be citizens sunday? just a couple. >> we all succeed when they succeed. do we want akilled immigration yes we need less but it should be skilled. john: that is just half of a @%rcent. >> the city of dallas year afr year with. if you have more enforcement which is nonexistent. >> they allow me to go to work every single day. john: on that note we are

john: we are back with the "students for liberty" conference. how many think you want to go into business when you graduate? may be more than half. how many have friends that think business is evil? we know they are wrong it has done more to lift people out of poverty than any government program but it is still vilified o college campuses. i was a consumer reporter winning emmys calling for government regulation against business but only after years i realize with no regulation almost all

business treats customers well. they have to because it is voluntary. now i make this argument it is stupid left brain thinking said john mackey. and his book conscious capitalisms says business is noble and we should start explaining that the ability. >> it is the greatest value creator. it has lifted billions out of poverty. consider 85 percent lived on less than $1 per day now with a 16%. if we embrace economic freedom prosperity follows. john: how would you explain it? even my closest friends don't get it.

but by and large it hurts people. it takes from the pork and gives to the rich. >> it's not true. it has lifted more people out of poverty over 200 years than any other thing that has existed. it is a great value creator otherwise if the critics critics, intellectuals who have always hated busiss captures the narrative. it is selfish, greedy, explicative and that needs to be challenged and changed. john: your book is called conscious capitalism that most not conscious? >> apparently not. most business people are not conscious of the great value they are creating. there on the defensive, they cannot articulate wh business is good a how to mix business a better place. john: what you do have a whole foods some people called it feel good nonsense what does it have to do was

conscious capitalism? you so people on a whole foods which it is better than i doubt. >> nobody is forced to trade there are other competitive alternatives. but they do so because they think they give value in exchange. john: students? you have questions or comments? please come to the micropne. >> i am from southern california. why can't we defend pofit or look at the profit motives and defend that from the ethical standpoint? do we have to pursue purpose or doesn't profit have the place in society? >> of course. but we should not defend only profit we should defend the other aspects with the great value creation not just for the investors but for customers, employees, a supplier network, the larger communities. john: could you convince your fellow students? people think he made a

profit i must have lost something. >> once you talk to them how business is a voluntary exchange of two parties they start toee profit in a different way. i have a lot of success when i sit down and explain is okay for somebody to make a personal profit if they offer a product that somebody else wants. john: to find that people are hostile to you and profit on your nicole petallides team. >> four record by running the most profitable food retailer in the united states. i am not against profit. [applause] john: what is the hostility? >> most believe in this zero sum game this sunday must be losing. john: but with capitalism it

is a win/win win a game where people who gain to the changes that would not be made so that is the story we need to tell. >> client from penn state university and what can we as student activist to on campus to help make students realize the benefits of capitalism? >> one of the most important things is put things in historical context. most people are so ignorant how much community has made with capitalism the average life span was 30 now today it is 78 in the united states and 82 in japan. 200 years ago 90 percent of the people were illiterate. now it is 14% because of capitalism. if you look at the whole history of human prosperity it is due to capitalism with the humanity out of the dirt john: day que john mackey.

when we return drugs and booz i say it should be legal. next. [applause]

[applause] john: we are back with "students for liberty" in washington d.c. where i'm impressed 1,000 of you choose to spend your weekend debating things li constitutional psychology and hijacked and i was more interested in alcohol and it was legal as a drinking age was 18 but now it is 21 and most do this are younger than an ad and drug czar illegal. students, i assume none of you ever drink or use drugs? [laughter] i know what you to incrimate yourself for parents may be watching but how many think most break the drug or alcohol laws? just about everybody kennedy was a tv personality at mtv and was 20 and grew up in the music business there was

no lawbreaking or drug use there? >> not on my end because i made the choice which was very boring for me but there were drugs and alcohol and marital relations with the unmarried people that i did not participate. john: you very street and 20 years old you were at mtv and musicians would ask you for drugs? >> i am glad you asked me because i wrote the whole book about the '90s and that era and there's a whole chapter dedicated from rock stars who would try to buy drugs from the. [laughter] you know, where i can find herewith? looked at me. [laughter] i look like i you belong to the homeless eampment. [laughter] john: questions or comments? >> name from the university of illinois. i know of other people saw the same thing that when i

was in middle school and high-school i felt the bad kids had more access to things like marijuana and alcohol and that is the one that is illegal. do you know of any studies that show when you make things a legal it is easier? >> there have been studies in middle school and high-school that's aid is much easier to get access to marijuana and alcohol. john: they just ask the kids. when you were under age which was easier to get? alcohol or we'd? >> how do we move the debate from the health issue to the personal right and responsibility? >> i would say show your friends it really opened my

eyes to statistics i was not aware of. it is a great entry point* for non libertarians and liberals it is the issue that is great becaus the rest on the foundation of freedom and it is worth fighting for because there are dire consequences if we turn our back and listen to the party line. [laughter] john: stayed there. i would like to answer your question. i struggled with this and was first learning about liberty and i said the older guys at the cato institute i can see marijuana, ecstasy but heroin, crack, it is frightening. what would people do? he said to you on your own body or not? i think self ownership should be a powerful

argument. >> i am from california. i agree. i think drugs should be legalized and said government should not tell us what to consume but don't you think by legalizing or access the government would start regulating and taxing it. >> that is an interesting question and divides the but teheran's if it is worth legalizatiin of there is regulation? that is a new hurdle and many times that is the first up then you have the regulatory debate later. but having them illegal is deadly and dangerous. ron paul made a good point* which was if heroin was made legal you would go shoot up

with heroin? a syringe and rubber band. john: some people would and those say many more people would use that is intuitive but there is no evidence in portugal and holidays -- holland there is no more evidence. we cannot result -- resolve this tonight. now, college students may be you should drop out. it is a rip-off. next. ♪

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life opens up when you do. ♪ john: finally tonight, you could call me a hypocrite because tonight i trash college, called it an expensive waste from many of you students. yeah, i have a good job in baghdad it because i went to college. my first boss believe in hiring people who graduated from princeton, yale, or dartmouth. i benefited from that credentialism. a college degree is evidence of a certain level of skill or knowledge and some people believe that. but my glasses were mostly lectures, pompous professor droning on. i retained barely enough of what he said or the reading to pass tests. but i did not really learn much in college.