street veteran michael holland among our guests, good night from new york city. >> investors are whooping it up now, but get ready president obama takes us back to 2007, welcome i am charles payne in for neil cavuto, don't uncork the champagne just yet, stocks may be up but white house could be leading to us a meltdown, administration pushing to give mortgages to folks with weak credit. those are same type of lynning thaing-- lendingthat many say tr financial collapse. stephen moore said do not think another meltdown will not happen again, because if the white house gets it way, it almost certainly will. stephen moore, i was shocked when i heard that news.

now he says make those loans again. >> i think everyone looked at this new program, the white house is talking about and their jaws dropped. these are the same policies that everyone knows that created housing bubble. and real estate crisis. and it was because of very loose lending standards, what is really shocking to me after the last 2 or 3 years, charles, where these banks have been accused and in some cases convicted of predatory lending for loosening their underwriting standards, now the white house is encouraging them to do it. charles: they are,en and rifting, the white house is saying, this time -- and interesting, this time, white house saying, we want you to do it and you will be immune from any prosecution, you got your blessing. >> white house and justice deputy are trying to convince

banks it will all be okay. don't issue with the government means tax payers, will foot the bill. definition of since tanty -- of insanity doing the name sing over and over, here in washington you will see some administrators backing this. because the economy is doing better, some people it is not fair because they are not catching up with that success, we need banks to lend to people without a lot of credit, but they will turn around and blame the banks whether we is another bubble burst. charles: here is something that is worrisome. this is going to fha, insures on the loans has gone through the roof, this is creates an amazing bubble condition within a govet is right now already a bubble. >> they have been tightening,

looking at lending standards they have been tightening, now they have to reverse course. i tell you, here is what i see as another major problem, aside from fact obama will now perhaps fuel a housing bubble. the rent rates have been going through the roof, 13 million rental unions, blackstone will be doing reo and rentals. now we'll have rental backed security, blackstone is doing it and others, that are going to perhaps, if prices come down, they could collapse, and they could put further pressure on housing, which just exacerbates the problem. charles: steve, i thought about community reinvest. act, this was a genesis for housing bubble that forced banks to lend to people who were risky, otherwise they could not you know build their businesses across state lines, and then fannie mae became a uka mountain

to put this toxic stuff, but they argue, they could not go to the bank and get a loan, and the banks were discriminating. is there any argument like that right now? >> not that i see. and you know, one thing you have to do, barges are very -- banks are very nervous about another real estate crisis, they are still feeling after effects of the first one, it is natural they will be skittish about making lones that are marginal right now, that is just human nature, i'm not sure, we -- why we want to have government pushing them this make the loans, the white house says, this is the way to help provide stimulus to the economy, by getting housing market going, but charles, you reported something numbers today, housing market looks stronger than it has been in 6 or 7 years it does not need a helping hand from

government. charles. sometimes the markets will take care of them themes if you leave them alone. i am worried about second term is beginning to shape up, what a lot of people fear is a robin hood term. >> in this case, a lot of housing market success is from investors purchasing the homes and bumping up the real estate market, that has triggered obama administration to say, look at this success, and all these mean rich people buying up the homes while students with and those with bad credits are not buying them, well they are not buying them because a conditio can't ad them. charles: we have new agencies they cobbled together, fund lem pendulum from where you could note buy a

home, and you had to jump through hoops, now we push the pendulum back in the other direction. we all know, this is probably simple math, we all know what is going to happen with this. >> how about logic? i think we should go back to logic. remember, back when you would go to the bank, they knew who you were, they knew you as a person. bottom line, we need logic. if you want to support housing market and the little guy, stop enabling big banks to go out and scoop up the big deals, clean up the credit agents, get us logic, clean ways to borrow money, to rate our consumers not by a number itself.

>> charles, amazing to me, government is like one step behind the market. in the period 2004, 5, 6 and 7, when housing was going crazy, federal government was saying yeah, keep making more lines, and then market crashed, and mo one was get a -- no one was get a loan, the government was whipping the banks, and now that recovery is happening, they are facilitating more loans, they are always 6 months to a year behind what the market is doing, why not just let the market play out. you want to fix the housing market now and forever just raise the down payment requirement. charles: we're going in the opposition direct. katie, where do you think that leads us, this looks for familiar. where do you think we're going? >> i would hope capitol hill realizes, and does not have a

short memory of 4 years ago, and tells obama administration to take a step back, they will not go down the road of making a taxpayer foot the bad decision of the government getting involved. charles: on one hand, a smart rebound from a terrible recession, and other hand capitol hill getting reelected. i'm worried. >> that is easy. charles. thank you, you are fantastic. >> you know, we warned you. we didn't know it was going to be this bad. democrats a student loan bailout. >> and big oil hat hater daryl hannah getting arrested to make a point, and t-bone pickens making his.

charles: it is the student loan

bailout that will need a bailing out. lawmakers looking to ease the burden to students. you can guess who will pay for it. help us ho out. >> they say it about fairness. they could not be more wrong, this is a very unfair success that would forgive some debt, keep debts of others in place, and punish students who made prudence decisions like going through a less expensive college, and working through college, and students who made smart decisions will be punished while students who made bad decisions get the reward. charles: do you agree. >> i am in the middle, i hate the fact that the obama administration wasted so much money, you get to kids who need a break, the economy is so bad,

they are stuck in the parent's basement. they should not know -- hey i'm going to spend or get bailout, because they are not through school yet. >> what about those points that hadley brought up, if you take a major with 25% unemployment. you knowingly take it. should rest of country pay -- >> -- you know as a history major i'm not going for that either, if you want to major in history or something you feel is purpose like art, you make the dough you are a business by. charles: but should someone else pay for it. >> no, just because they are talking about possibly giving relief to stein, if anyone needed relief, students should know they have to take responsibility, maybe there should be a class about that, a class about responsibility with your loan. charles: that should be in first grade, not college. rick, you remember good old days with city college free.

somebody like myself could go through school and get through, today -- a couple of important things, first and foremost, there is not a chance in world this bill will pass. we know that. charles: hold on. >> it's not. charles: mitt romney talked about president giving away gifts, one he talked about specifically was student loans. >> it will. but let's talk about why. a critical public policy issue that you cannot forget. we already know that the african-american community, latino community is racking up more debt than anybody else, they have less money to go to school, you take away lones to begin with -- loan to begin work then you have all rich kids going to school, karen bass, the congressman who sponsored this bill, no one knows area of higher education then carney

karen bass,. charles: what does that have to do with taxpayers paying student loans? what about the cab driver who did not go to college, you take a piece of his taxes -- >> it is bailout. >> right. >> give them a break. >> that is what is happening. >> not they are -- they don't pay it back, they should pay it back. they are in a tough bind, a lot tougher than some other yahoo!s on capitol hill. you know they can't pay for their homes, they are folks that should not get bailouts, students to should get a break, and obama administration, and universities, i mean they are bad, there is no reason for tuition to keep going up. >> states keep cutting the amount of money they are giving them. charles: and government keeping doling out money, colleges are one of the favorite classes that they will never be critiqued by friends in liberal media, college professors can earn money, and have tenure, and

build wonderful campuses and tuition outpaces inflation by 500%, and no one says anything because government is footing the bill. >> what happens who is beneficiary of these student loans? it is the colleges and universities that benefit. not necessarily the young college graduate. if up to the help the young college graduate, reform social security, reform medicare, give us a break on public debt that is anything to lay on the shoulders of my generation. >> you knower, mitch daniels former governor of indiana is freezing tuition, that is a real good idea that helps students and you know because he is a cutter, the slasher, he is good with economic, he is making sure that administration in university are not gets the break it is the students. charles: that is great but, here is thing i tell kids also. be careful about someone

forgiving your loan right now, between years from now -- 20 years from now, they forgive the loans again, the payback will be higher. >> one thing to clear up, for some reason everyone wants to lay the blame for this rising tuition on the federal loans, talk to anyone, involved in the process of running the large schools, they will tell you, that is not it every year they get less and less and less money from states, they have no elsewhere to go but to raise tuition. charles: schools like harvard. >> a private institute. there are not a lot of loans going to kids at harvard. charles: and public schools, highest paid is at let like ettic et -- athletic director followed by the football coach, and basketball coach. >> there should be clamping down on all building going on.

charles: we'll have you back again later on. next, we'll talk about the wind farm cell that has environmentalists head spinnings. and boone pic boom pick ins. great, big, brand-new, you get's chance to break it in with us.

charles: more companies gives the red light too green, bp latest big oil company putting their -- up for sale, saying they will ramp up oil production instead. tycoon, boone pickens, if green is losing its cool.

it seems that the enthusiasm is fading a little bit for green energy. >> well, green energy is expensive. charles. it all comes down to you will go the you know cheapest you can on energy, and natural gas is cheapest. you cannot make a wind project work unless you have $6 natural gas, wind is priced off the margin, and so, if naturals go is $4. you cannot do a win deal, i know because i took a big loss on this very type. same project you are talking about. charles: i remember, a huge project, you put a lot of money into it here is the thing, too, i think maybe message is, and a reality check, but, even on best case scenario we will use fossil fuels for a long time, we might be using it. >> you are right, wind will come

back, there is no question, it is source of energy. that we'll use in the future, but don't subsidize it, you know to the level that it is you know expensive that is another debt real create. use the cheap natural gas. this is a great opportunity to take advantage of cheap hideo carbons. charles: about a month ago, i talked about a company that makes a lot of products for liquid natural gas, one reason i was focused on it they are doing a lot of business in china, i said, china seems to know the boone pickens plan better than congress, maybe he to get his plenty back circumstance thain resting that the things you talk bchina is adopting. and that is nutty.

>> it is happening? u.s. there is no question, you are moving heavy duty trucks away from the diesel to natural gas. because it saves about $2 a gal angallon, that is making it happen. someone said you wanted help from washington, you don't need help, if you want it to happen faster, you do, my plan was, to give a tax credit. we need more than anything else, an energy plan for america. we don't. have we have no energy plan, we never had an energy plan, we're the only country in the world without an energy plan, we need a plan and we need to use our own resources, we need to put

together north american energy alliance, which is canada, u.s. and mexico that was give us the security needed. charles: boone, i have to -- i want to jump in, it sounds like you are being diplomatic, andrew cuomo, kick the can down the road on the shale. governor of a state with massive unemployment. because of political pressure and environmentalists, kicked the can down the road, i'm not sure that ipo wil politicians gt it. >> if cuomo thinks he is better off kicking the can down the road, know this the gas has been there 300 million years, it not going any place, but it will happen. new york is not big enough to be a factor in overall gas supply

in u.s., ther they are a nonfac. cannot make a easy decision. but the same with keystone pipeline, my god, you need to take that, you are going to go down as dumbest crowd in history, if you turn down the keystone pipeline, that oil is going to go to china, i can tell you that, a lot of people think that canada is one of the states in america. it is not. it is say sovereign country, they will go the direction where they can make the most money out of it, which is what they should do. they -- >> having said that, boone, if they approve keystone, do you think that will open floodgates? >> what do you mean? charles: will we see massive approvals, more drilling on government property. you know, will it the approval of keystone be the green light

this energy needs of america supercede that of special interests and environmentalists. >> i hope it would be, what is best for america is what we ought to do, and special interest groups to be put to the side lines, but that is not opening up federal lands for drilling, let that happen when it does. you want to pick this low hanging fruit first, because, you will have with this pipeline, it will pretty well give to -- to the u.s., if they hand till manage it properly, you will have access to 250 billion barrels of oil in northern alberta. that is the equivlent supply that saudis have, they claim 250 billion barrels, we can have that, have access to that, with the pipeline to the united states. charles: boone, you know, listen, have you been fighting

this fight for a long time. we've all benefitted from amazing you boone boom in natural gas, i hope you keep up the fight. efficienappreciate your time. >> you bit. charles: next. news washington misplaced nearly a billion bucks that of meant for katrina relief. now sandy victims who is tracking the money that is for them? the scary answer, next.

charles: sandy victims are worried for their aid for good reason, a new report shows 700 million in taxpayer relief for hurricane katrina victims was misspent, no one knows where it went, many are worried that the government of lose track of the 60 billion in sandy aid. and relief will not be misspent or lost in his town. i have tell you something thank you. those are pretty bold statements there considering, how complex the whole thing circumstance how many hands the money that to go through. >> well, we're putting processes in place, early stage to make sure that money is well spent. reaches the people it is to help. and the people actually do the repairs, improve their homes and their communities.

charles: you have 18 april all of them get a piece of the action. you can't control all of parts of this distribution process. >> we can control what comes to long island, that is our motivation, to make sure. we expect to get about 6 to 7 billion in long island. so we're motivated, and we're putting in place the mechanics, and audits to make sure that mean reaches the people. charles: the county already spent 35 million, with one contractor. no political ties with anyone. because, in addition to money actually spent, there will be other questions to who gets money, are you involved in all of these. >> we are, and vendors we've

selected and correcteddors, were on approved state list, and our local list. so they have proven themselves, we have the responsibility to make sure they follow through and spend that money. charles: you audit them where they take the money. these guys get $70s million, there could be mismanagement on their end as well. >> absolutely. we've sense out audit letters to the vendors that have done work on this very are realliy stage, we' -- early stage, we want payroll records, and material records and we want to know who their subcontractors are, we mean business, we'll be watching over their shoulders to make sure the money is not wasted . >> has been balked at -- has anyone balked at that? >> not at all. charles: talking about the human side, how are people in nassau county holding up.

>> we've been one of the few counties that took the initiative early on, at our own expense, county epens, we sent out contractors to the homeowners, to help them redo wiring, and put in hot water tanks. and try to make the homes live livable. we expect to be reimbursed. >> that is amazing, not everyone went to that length -- >> we've seen the results, our economy has roared back. just judging from our sales tax because we invested in quick recovery. our economy has shown a certai % increase over last year. charles: you get a feeling, you do this the right way it could be a template for other cities and counties on sense of accountability for this time of

money, every time we hear billions of dollars, somehow some falls through the cracks and no one knows where it went. >> the important message, put process in place early on, tell people you are watching, tell vipdors you are watching -- vendors you are watching, encourage people to honestly make the repairs. charles: george manage margos tk you. you. >> thank you. charles: applebaum shell today could proof zuck ser phoning it in. how mark may miss the mark. girl vo: i'm pretty conservative. very logical thinker. (laughs)

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charles: if there is buzz about it. the biz blitz is assault over it a new daily segment focussing on wall street issues, main street should be paying attention, to first topic, u.s. airways joining in on sequester budget cuts, do airlines have a point or is sequester a better excuse than weather? to market watchers. gary. better than weather? a nice built in excuse or is it legit. >> equally good to the weather. when companies come out like this, you know with these excuses, that holiday you know fell on wrong day or, it was too cold in april. or whatever, i just raise my eyebrows, and think, they could take advantage of thing like sequester maybe an ad campaign about ho their prices are lower, now is time to flying instead

they make excuses, it makes them look bad to wall street. >> to say they make excuses that is pis -- they are explaining wt the prior quarter looked like. charles: you don't believe that do you? >> government is the nation's largest. large employer, they take a lot of flights. i think i have tell you, main street investors, should ignore the news, focus on stock price, airlines, whether it be lcc, and delta, they are up, they are doing better than s&p. charles: you like the airlines. >> but jonathan, the sequester hardly affected u.s. government, how could it have that big of an impact on theee airlines. >> i don't think it is having a

major impact, that is the point, they make it you know the public aware. in terms of the quarterly reports. but, investors should watch price action not headlines that has been strong. that is why you stick with airlines. >> we're in agreement on that. charles: so you like airlines too? gary b? >> no, no, i'm in agreement with jonathan you should watch the stock price. i don't like airlines right now, i think oil is you know going to keep going up. but, we agree in principle. charles: great when two smart guys don't agree, topic number two, customer suffering bone fatigue. apple may be thinking so. mark zuckerberg rumored to add a facebook phone to the already crowded phone market, jonathan you say a new smartphone may be good but gary b not so sure. >> it will be i think good are in zuck, and will good for us,

over half of adults, look at their smartphone before they look at their spouse every morning, you know, i don't think we're suffering cell phone fatigue, we're suffering salvation, you know, it is about time someone else pick up the reins, it was motorola, then nokia, then apple, and samsung, facebook has hundreds of billions satisfy customers. i think they will do a badg banp job. charles: gary? >> i think this is goofiest thing, i can understand motorola and samsung, they are hardware. i can see apple on tv, but this is like bloomingdale's coming out where an iphone, facebook is a social media network. what do they know about making hardware, people who say i'm going to buy a facebook phone, i say good luck. charles: a lot more persuasive

than anything you have said. >> let stock market persuade you, at its heart, facebook and an advertising story. a quarter past where a lot of media and advertise sensitive stocks have done well. i think from an investor perspective, i would bet on tomorrow's potential new leader could like facebook rather than apple. charles: what do they do to, have someone else make it and put a facebook logo on it. >> they will mic maximize their efficiency, this is a company, that a dozen years ago did not exist. i think that stock is showing strength. charles: stock had an ugly debut. i have to tell you, if this fails reputation will sink further, what do you think?

if it fails ? >> and from what i can tell, all tea leaves, and data points, i think that people, are not having a cell phone fatigue, they are having facebook fatigue. growth rates are not where they are, it might grow in europe, teens are moving to things like twitter, this might be start of the down fall of facebook. charles: we have less than 30 seconds. real quick, market up and down over jobs respect. >> i think trend for stocks is higher, i think that reforward less of friday -- regardless of friday, you want to be long equities. >> chart man? >> market did same thing last year. peaked in april, a 10% pullback before moving higher, i think history repeats. >> fantastic. you know, you were picked for first time on this you are the best, you have proved it again.

>> thank you. charles: look out you on corporate wrongdoers, judges that are launching justice league when they can't get their way. you can see a lot of heavy jail time. so let's break down this play. charles? uh, charles couldn't make it. his single miles card blacd him out here and here. he should have used... the capital one venture card. he's coming to us from home. hey fellas... hey baby, you want mama to iron your undies? nice tightie whities. i didn't know mrs. barkley made quilts. really? looks like a circus tent. is that the best you got? w if you put this, with this, you have a sailboat. what's in your wallet?

charles: a posse of federal judges are looking to bring back the days of wall street perp walk. you remember that? why would hedge fund dole out 602 million to settle government charges limped ts linked to insr trading if not one person in the

firm was guilty. randy, people are getting fed up with this, we went through the wall street meltdown, bailouts and a faint recovery, no one did a perp walk. no really people working at real firms had cuffs put on them. >> let's think about what a perp walk is about. on prosecutorial side, nobody wants to go through it from a defense perspective, wait, there is a presumption of busines inn, why do that to someone, we work like dogs to try to vendure our client -- surrender our clients to avoid that embarrassment. charles: what about, when they did pay fines, hsbc paid almost

2 million for money laundering, someone in the firm had to orchestrate that, some someone have to do jail time. >> depends who what side of the aisle you are on. this is a cost of doing business. charles: wait a minute, breaking the law is cost of doing business. >> resolving case without admitting guilt, without admitting liabilitiy. am i am not admitting wrong doing, a live another day to make 700 million, if i lose i have the stain forever. charles: wait. but, from a prosecutor point of view, what are they worried about. the goods 2 billion settl settl, is this not why the madoffs of the world of emboldened?

the guys like bernie madoff, they are too intimidated to go after them, they operate with impunity, at least people in the organizations, worse case, you lose your job, but you don't go to jail? >> i disagree, not a matter of intimidation, we talk about a cost of doing business, the criminal justice system, and keep in mind, you have criminal justice system here and parallel sec proceedings that are civil not criminal. they tend to go like this some judges are okay with this, they don't care about f amendment privilege, others say nope, you cannot do this i have won cases that i have lost, i have lost cases that i should have won, when you put your hands in the jurors, you don't know what they are doing, you hedge your bets,

you resolve your case you move on. charles: you brought up sec, and you know it does civil side, we -- capital pay a big time fine, then later fbi arresttd one of the top guys in the firm. it made big time news. could we see the beginning of something different? maybe beginning of a serious crackdown on individuals who were responsible for action that lead to the fines rather than firms shielding the employees from criminal behavior that to be quite frank with you, someone that steals a loaf of breadth doebreadthdoes more time than st sales a million dollars. >> sometimes it old game of spin the bottle, there are so many people out there in law everyone force am, able -- law en forbes am. enforcement. you cannot catch everyone,.

charles: we're seeing some federal judges say, we do not accept these deals go back and redo them, it might involve jail time? >> well when you think about a judge, you close our wyes you eyes, rakoff, high said not just about share olders i'm a judge. -- i am closing my eyes to the truth. and as a judge, since in this case, he or she the. judge has to approve it, this particular judge says, no, i don't care about the cost of doing business, i don't care about moving the case, i want the truth. charles: maybe ul o all of themt the truth. remember government's still good radio ads for promoting food stamps. >> food stamps help lots of

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one thing that hasn't changed: the official tirement age. ♪ the question is how do you make sure you have the money you need to enjoy all of these years. ♪ charles: that florida clerk arrested for paying $20 in cash for $40 of food stamps. police also found them on the cheap and using them to stock his shells. no mistake trafficking fraud

has more than doubled under the obama administration and she says the white house makes it easy for his folks to get their hands on them. >> the store was busted twice. don't you think they would set up a system to make sure it did not happen again? this administration has a problem with oversight. tsa, this come across the board. if you look at a chart of food stamps since 1980, you cannot blame the great recession except the above administration really saying we want as many people as possible on food stamps. >> you want to believe the bombing administration because a crack in florida is buying food stamps to

stockfish tells? that is a stretch. charles: $75 billion into the economy without zero accountability it does breed this type of stuff. >> i will not defend the behavior. criminals are criminals but we are getting nuts about the food stamp program why not the private sector where wal-mart purposely pushes employees onto medicaid that cost us more than what food stamps cost. >> maybe wal-mart is doing that because the mandates will raise prices to buy insurance that way. here is what is happening with the food stamp program i would like to me them because most are honest people but with national government that there is a

case where 1 percent of all dollar spent on food stamps are wasted on fraud but the best way to fight fraud is to make them more local instead of one central government is in washington d.c. to administer all the programs. >> if they have $0.20 on the dollar they do not need it that bad it is too easy of the program because they want cash to buy something else. it is too easy and it is the administration. >> it is a slippery slope. >> i e-mail's will get flooded but poverty is too comfortable. >> he is right.

>> will admit there is some slippery slope but let's keep in mind the overwhelming majority of people on food stamps are honest. charles: this is not an attack on poor people when i assaying is i think it is a shame when people are born on food stamps and die on food stamps there is something wrong with that. i think america failed them we did not help them. >> absolutely. the surge have been about the time of the economic recession when people suffered losses spread our hearts go out to them as the economy recovers we see stagnation the same number of people on the program continues to grow. so this is a cyclical, a generational problem was social mobility. >> keep something in mind if the economy is recovering none of us will pretend

there is not a problem with jobs. just because the economy recovers and corporations are better, people even those with jobs go back to the lower paying jobs still need the help. don't pretend it is not a real. >> we're not saying that is a problem. is the system they can take advantage of the system. why don't they have their picture of the card or better oversight? that money could have gone to the people who really needed is some of the criminals because there is no oversight with the administration so it is their fault. >> it is not. >> get really as. >> the president may have a few things to take care of. >> going by 7% the program is going up. >> i am inclined to agree but keep in mind when a the big problems we have people are getting jobs at lower pay. charles: we have to leave it there we could have gone