john: i am glad you're on board. now that you are libertarian, we just need to convince 7 billion other people. we will keep trying. we're out of time for some move. >> tucker: log onto it fox ande. friends.com. >> brenda: that payroll tax hike making jobs take a hike? retailers shedding more workers than any other sector last month and consumers have less cash it spend. and now, more tax hikes could be on the way. president obama expecting the call for another 700 billion dollars in tax revenues when he releases his budget next week. will that mean more job losses are on the way? hi, everyone, i'm brenda buttner, this is bulls and bears. let's get right to it, the bulls and bears this week, gary b smith, tobin smith, jonas max ferris in our studio. >> outstanding. >> brenda: along with jehmu

green. john, will more tax hikes have employers telling employees to take a hike? >> yes, no doubt about it. that's what's happening right now. we have the lowest labor force participation rate since 1979. and just a year ago, president obama was saying this is the last time we need to raise taxes. president clinton has said the exact same thing, but for years they railed on the bush tax cuts so this is why we've got so much deficit and then they make them permanent. they raises taxes on the rich and everybody gets free pizza. it's not working. and what we're doing is not working and raising taxes further is going to further this economy. >> brenda: what do you think about that? is it going to hurt the economy? >> i think when you look the at the jobs report at that came out yesterday, it proves one thing, we have to continue to invest in this economy and create jobs. and the only way we're going to be able to it do that is if would we finish the job that was start in january, and the tax

for top millionaires. >> no, this isn't about free pizza, it's getting us once and for all out of this recession and closing the loopholes, closing some of the retirement tax benefits for millionaires and billionaires, that allow them to put more than 3 million dollars into their retirement accounts. those are things that can help us and take that revenue and make those investments that are necessary to create the jobs. >> that sounds like cyprus. >> that unfortunately weren't created in the last jobs report. >> brenda: gary b, what do you make of that? >> the left is under the dilution that the government can somehow create jobs and if we just give them more money and we give them enough time, eventually they'll get it right. we saw though from the first obama stimulus that that didn't work. it hasn't budged the needle at all. and as john layfield--

as john points out, we have the lowest labor force participation rate in like the last 40 years, second of all, even if you say, oh, m gosh, obama has been a success, i don't see how it could, it goes back to the time of roosevelt, he tried for three terms, it and it doesn't work. we can have a couple of guys holding up road signs for a couple of weeks and those jobs go away. those are temporary jobs, we can't count on the government to create permanent jobs, it hasn't worked in the history of mankind. >> brenda: okay, we saw retailers layoff in this last jobs report, jonas. what does that mean about raising taxes? was this a direct result, do you think of the payroll tax hike? >> it is, i mean, if you raise taxes people have less money to spend. it's not good for spending, which means it's not good for job creation and unformer we have to have taxes to have a society and we can't balance the budget just raising taxes on the top 2% of the country.

getting specifically job creation, the current proposal, i'm not going to talk about the other problems in the tax code. if we were to remove deductions forome people or all people, believe it or not, that creates more demand, because you're putting money in an ira account because you get a tax break today and for 30 and 40 years. and if it went away, imagine during a recession, no 401 contributions and a tax break. all of that money would have got spent during the recession. so this particular proposal may not cause joblessness to go up in the short run. it's not a good long-term policy. >> brenda: what do you think, toby, about tax hikes, what are they going to do to the tax rate. >> still digesting jonas. and christina roamer only spent like 30 years

researching the facts. and when you raise taxes does it affect jobs. her numbers, 700 billion of raised taxes would be probably 700,000 to 1.5 milon less jobs created and if you take this offer the 10-year period, these would be millions and millions of jobs. you can't make the argument economically that quote, unquote, raising revenues, which is the code word for raising taxes, is going to help. at private sector take capital and create jobs. >> what tax increase are you talking about, they're proposing that's going to hurt the consumption of consumers? >> listen, i'm not going to speculate. but obviously, it's been released and says that we would be in net, a negative cash flow from the tax raises that we've put and the ways that they're doing tforget about the ira's and 401(k)'s. >> there's other parts to the budget, too, we would get in here. and i'm saying that whenever you take that out of the

economy, it comes out of jobs. >> jehmu? >> i think there's one good thing, tax rates that we can all agree on on the incoming budget that we're going to see from the president and that's raising taxes on cigarettes so that he can fulfill the promise that he talked about in the state of the union he so that all young four years old can attend pre-school. can we agr that that's necessary on cigarettes? that's a good thing. >> okay, all right. >> well, create jobs and-- >> and if that's about the argument, that's about jobs. we're talking about jobs, and we've seen that consumers had uncle sam take money out of their pockets at the beginning of this year, and the jobless rate, though it's gone down, and it's only gone down because people are dropping out of the work force. >> and brenda, first of all, that's exactly, that's exactly right. and, but, you know, i just wanted to-- i'm sorry, i have to get back to jehmu's point and the cigarette tax, the reason the government raises the cigarette tax is exactly one

thing, they want less cigarette usage, right? and why, when they want to raise taxes on the rich and everyone else, they expect a different reaction, in this case they expect more revenues, no, it works the same way, if you raise taxes on people, whether it's cigarettes or income you get less of it. less productive activity and jehmu, you can't have it both ways, work with cigarettes and raise-- >> and if you raise taxes on cigarettes and raise a lot of money with it, it can raise money, but it can hurt the spending because it cuts into the after tax income of people that smoke and spend less and less, less job creation. and jehmu says tax, but it's not going to help job creation. >> brenda: you know, john has been so, so courteous and hasn't body slammed anybody. >> wrestle mania weekend. >> i love the emotional argument that we're going to help kids. you're not going to stick up for cigarettes, are you? how much is that going to do?

that's not the salvation of your kids' education and future. that's a different argument. what we're doing is not working, guys. 60 million people are in poverty, lowest job creation, lowest job work force in 34 years, it's insane. and this path we're on is absolutely unsustainable and raising taxes on the rich. but you raise taxes and the deficit is exactly the same. >> jehmu? >> well, what we're doing is not working when it comes to paying attention to all of the deficit hawks, who have been making us cut spending when you should not be doing this. >> nobody-- >> and cut spending. >> yes, we've cut spending. >> brenda: the pace of spending perhaps, but-- >> and the worst part of the budget he continues to have to compromise with the republicans and-- >> compromise? there's been no budget in four years. what compromise? >> we need to spend, spend, spend. >> okay, so let's get back to tax hikes, what that does to the job? >> and we know empirically, by

data, by the research there's a one-to-one correlation. take the taxes however you want it call it by definition it comes out of the capital system and goes to the government system, which i believe gary b made this point once or twice before, it loses its velocity, all right. >> brenda: that's got to be the last word. thanks, guys. fast forward workers walking off to protest wages. they want double, but some say folks organizing t walkout could stomp on your job. up next, put your seat back in the upright position and brace yourself for this one. some airlines seeing a slowdown in sales growth and are blaming d.c. spending cuts.

@íack to bulls

and bears only on the fox news channel and check out foxnews.com. >> brenda: here comes the new blame game. we've heard the companies using disasters like hurricanes and earthquakes for not hitting their target, but the sequester, the man mandatory cuts are cutting into sales? >> point the finger at yourself. the sun is in your eyes, your shoes are untied, i'm certainly it's not your fault that you've lost money collectively since orville and wilber wright flew at kittyhawk. they're losing money left and

right. our government is just as inept and-- >> they don't all lose money, contractors are scared, not flying as much. does it have much impact? >> the point about the airlines being a terrible industry, but partially to blame on the government and partially the payroll tax. there were real cuts in government and people are firing people and if you work in government and one of the 20 in your group got fired because of the sequester cut then you start getting worried and he's not going to fly on a trip to l.a. anytime soon and you don't want to go to disney world you think you might be next and it leads to less air travel at the margins, it could definitely hurt the airline industry a little bit. >> brenda: gary b, last night my daughter tried to blame her report card on the sequester. just about everything now. can airlines blame the sequester for the fact this they're losing money or having a tough time? >> brenda, i think i'm with john on this, i think the

whole thing is just silly. jonas mentioned, well, you know, there's these cuts. look, as far as i can tell, the sequester hasn't slowed down the government. you know? so i don't think it's slowed down any spending they're going to do on airlines, so, most of the people were furloughed, so, all of the people that are furloughed that were going to fly and then didn't fly because of hat, are never going to fly, i think the number is minuscule. it'd be like me saying, well, i was going to fly this week and now i'm not going to fly and delta then saying, gary b smith didn't fly that week, that's costing us. i think the whole thing is silly. >> first up, gary we knew you weren't going to fly anywhere, anytime. >> true. >> neil: you happen to live in the d.c. area and you know that, for instance, u.s. air has a hub at national airport and yes, about 4 to 8% of their traffic is related to the government. period of time direct or indirect and military by the way, let's not forget that. u.s. air, basically, the numbers have been going up, i'm using the graphic here,

until they got to that point. delta, that's a bunch of malarky, delta tried to raise the trees and they've blown up. you know who did well? you know, southwest, was taking flights from baltimore, and you know, that's-- >> and delta says that some of its fair hikes were hurting things as well. can you stick up for the airlines here? >> no, absolutely not. and someone who buys tickets at the last minute a lot, i cannot stand the way they try to gouge us last minute flyers and that's what this is about. you've seen the number of people flyingo up by 4% over last year's mark, but what they're having an issue with, fewer people were making the decision to fly at the last minute that's where they took a hit, but i'm not feeling the pain of tse airlines. they do not need to gouge us and they're real consequences of the sequester and-- >> jehmu is just a democratic strategist. >> people who have been laid off and suffering, who have been affected by the sequester

and the airlines should stop that, shame on them. >> and more jobs and the airlines should just be nice, jehmu to everyone who is sequestered. and a rule, now what? we're going to lower the prices for you people who have been sequestered? >> hey, have you been furloughed, they can fly for free. no, the airlines come up with an excuse. >> and jehmu, it's called charity, okay? >> all right. john, i've got to give you the last word here. >> jehmu, this is how airlines price. it's a matter of demand. the problem they have is they never control their capacity and so they never make money. as a sector, they've lost money since orville and wilber wright. >> brenda: they can't blame it on the sequester. so let's see, the new health care law is so complicated, we now have to pay tens of thousands of people to explain it to us. the cavuto gang is about to tell you something that will make your blood pressure rise. that's at the bottom of the

hour, but up here first, fast food workers walking off the job demanding massive pay hike. is this rage for real or is the union revving things up to

>> fast food workers walking off the job and demanding a 100% pay hike. guess who was there to help

them make the demand? >> and i think there's a couple of things going on. workers have every right to want more wages and i think the union wants to expand and grow its monopoly, if you will, but it's going to back fire. here is why. if you're the owner of an mcdonald's franchise and employ 25 people at 7 1/4 and doubles to 15.50 an hour. wait a second, i can't afford to have the 25 people. you're starting to layoff people or if you say, well, everyone's essential and these workers say well, mcdonald's franchis franchisee, he can afford it, but he may not have enough profits to open another one and create more jobs. it's going to back fire as it did with the auto industry, the steel industry, with the airlines. unions e up creating less jobs, not more. >> brenda: jehmu, a lot of times higher wages, lower

demand for employment. >> well, brenda, first, the raise is for real. so many of these workers at mcdonald's, they're living off food stamps and some are living in homeless shelters. throughout the recession, there was one sector that actually was doing quite well, and that was fast food companies. mcdonald's the top beneficiary of the recession in many ways and we've seen over the last ten years the ceo of mcdonald's, the pay gap between him and what his workers make has more than doubled. this is why these workers have rates, this is why they're out there and you also have mcdonald being one of the leading people lobbying against raising the minimum wage when if we did more people would have more money in their pocket to go and get the big mac and fridays. >> brenda: john. >> i'd like to get 100 million

like tony romo makes and one less playoff. and gary b is right, they have a right to ask for more money. if they're making $9, making what puts them in poverty and we have 60 million in poverty and that has to be addressed. because of the problems in washington d.c., not mcdonald's, this is not being addressed. >> brenda: is this about the unions trying to raise their membership? it's been declining for decades. >> of course it's a great stunt and they do it in new york city where expenses are very high, but look it, two things, number one, these are actually unskilled workers. there's not a lot of skill to turn the burger or push the cash register, i'm sorry i hate to break the bad news, jehmu, 28% of people in pages 18-30 years old are unskilled and unemployed. if they want to hire they're going to have to bring new people in. >> brenda: is this for real or about the union. >> after we get the big

salaries by being in unions, if i'm not mistaken. that's a separate situation. first thing i learned in economics, raise the labor rates and demand for labor goes down. there's a glut of labor forming at the lower end of the economy and we're fot going to consume it even at lower rates and it's going to hurt the economy. the wages are low and high unemployment. if low wages demand for labor and why aren't people working? >> thanks, guys. the end of the segment. and thank you to jehmu for joining us. before you watch tonight's big game. get the names that will help you slam-dunk a 25% profit before next march madness.

ichlt. >> neil: >> predictions and gary b, you're up. >> the only jobs we're creating are temporary jobs, by manpower, up. >> brenda: bull or bear. bear. >> brenda: john your prediction. >> to gary's point, the only jobs in west texas with the energy sector, devin energy up. >> brenda: bull or bear. >> i don't like that one, bear. >> brenda: jonas your prediction. >> 40 year anniversary of the first cell phone and still making money in vanguard telecom and clients for many years, and. >> brenda: toby bull or bear. >> bear, i don't know if there's clients left for that, go ahead.