sour on china and mining. it is expensive. >> i like it . i am in the stock and getting hammered good. i am glad adam is on board as well >> the only place for business, fox. >> what the heck is going on? retailers seeing sales drop last month and more companies like family dollar warning they will not see customer spending picking up. but the stock market is going up and the dow rising and closing in on $15,000. who has it right on the economy? i am elizabeth mcdonald and welcome to forbes on fox. we'll have steve, mike, and sabrina and john and morgan. mike, who has it right? >> the consumers have it right. going back to 2007 before the

last bubble burst, consumers were on it and confidence had started to fall and the stock market took until october to realize. consumers have it right. cheap prices and money is raising stock prices but making consumirs poor. >> steve, these are the data points. retail sales are lowest in nibe months and consumer confidence is down. who has it right? the market hit for the 14th time it hit a record. >> the market has it right. you can have a good market in a economy. it is not good. company corporate earnings are up and they haven't paid it out in dividends and you have a peculliar situation. dividends are higher than bond yield and so the market is not a bull market only because of the dollars going down in value.

you can have both. but in real terms the market is also punked. >> you wonder if the blue sky crowd is too much in control. companies like the gap, you know, banana republic all saying, we are not seeing the retailers. some in government said we had a bad winter or easter break. who has it right sabrina? >> i wish the stock market is forecasting correctly but i think the consumer does. workers are dropping out of the labor market because there are no jobs. we saw the sequestitration circus here in washington with no meaningful cuts and the president presented a budget with $600 billion in new tax increases on businesses and the wealthy. i don't see by my calculations that this is not a formula for strong economic growth.

>> it is it also 900 billion . jamie diamond is saying. small businesses are not spending and the confidence of small businesses is not doing so great lately. what do you think is the answer here in >> you have two different economies and two tracks. the market is doing well . i give more credit to expanding sales in foreign territories. there are places like indonesia and india and american companies are selling a lot of products. here at home, we have the same problem. we don't have enough jobs. middle class is phrinking and we have to do more for these jobs and congress has to stop obstructing the president . we have to do what it take to get people jobs. >> john, we have been letting the government do what it

takes . jobs in the housing industrial complex. the best foreclosure mitigation is a job. when you look at the government policy, the government is way too much planning the economy, right? >> i would point out market highs. to talk about them is soften the expectation. these were highs expect're experienced when the dollar was much stronger and you look at the stock market overall, it is no surprise it would be disconnected from the consumer. they don't price in the present and i presume they are saying down the line and thank to grid lock it would be good for the economy and felt by the consumer. >> and what do you say about joy biden recovery in 2010, where did that go? >> we are still waiting. the highs we haven't seen since 200divide and the

housing bubble in full and the back that they are at the highs is peculliar to me. we have 12 million people unemployed and median salaries are flat and retail spending on the down turn again. there is a larger issue that hasn't been touched on yet and government is heavily involved right now. >> wait a minute. >> and three million that the federal reserve is pouring and the stock market jumps higher in response fot government. >> morgan is saying too much going on in dc, what do you say? >> i see her point. you can make the argument that government was not alouped to -- allowed to do enough. i know it is not comfortable for everyone sitting here. it is a matter of philosophy. >> in is a definitionful inscanity. you hurt the patient and they

get worse and you poison them more . the reason why the market went up this week. the people know that the crazy tax proposals will not pass. get the government out of the way and the american people do the job. >> tamne you want to weigh in, >> it is the exact opposite. recession are a cleansing mechanism and how you remove the bad things from the economy. we haven't seen a real market rally. >> people talk abouting the stock market and how much higher stocks would be if the feds were not intervening in the economy . proping up the failed ideas of yesterday. >> go ahead mgan. it is interesting. when you look at investors they don't believe in a stock market rally. a great quote from investor jim rogers.

give me a million and i will show you a good time, too. >> the market now. you are saying it is matching what it earlier last decade, that run up now. are you seeing the same run up now. >> i have to look at the charts closer to speak to that. >> and go ahead, steve. i want to hear your input. >> give it to steve. >> the market in real terms is lower than it was years ago. you can't fon bus the companies with the economy. that is reflected in the stock prices. >> yeah, that is a point. they are economic inicators and we have to consider the number of the people who are leaving the work force and help us to commute how we are

doing. >> optimism and that is what is called the fourth multiplier in the. >> one of the reasons why consumers are not confident. we have had huge increase of taxes under president obama . that's why the companies are not investing. they are increasing productivity and one of the reasons stock prices went up. take home pay is not increasing and this the worst recovery since the depression. >> you know, mike has noted obama care to float on the launch pad. we don't know if that is going to happen. >> we do talk about mrs. thatcher, but conservatives talk about how she turned around the british economy. it took 15 years.

15 years . barack obama was condemned after a year and a half. >> and reagan's worked it took 15 years and george w policy work? >> no, if we use the same logic that the conservatives are applying to mrs. thatcher and will not give to president obama. >> we have to leave it there. marget thatcher is coming up on the next block. america is celebrating equal pay days for women this week. but did margaret thatcher show us why merit pay would put we went out and asked people a simple question: how old is the oldest person you've known?

we gave people a sticker and had them show us. we learned a lot of us have known someone who's lived well into their 90s. and that's a great thing. but even though we're living longer, one thing that hasn't changed: the official retirement age. ♪ the question is how do you make sure you have the money you need to enjoy all of these years. ♪ to enjoy a♪l of these years. (train horn) vo: wherever our trains go, the economy comes to life. norfolk southern. one line, infinite possibilities.

we'll be back at 1:00 p.m. eastern only on fox. >> elizabeth: welcome back. lawmakers pushing for equal pay for women. it is happening as the world said goodbye to a powerful woman who championed merit play. margaret thatcher talked about the merit pay. explain sabrain? >> merit pay is the way to go. women's groups are pushing for equal pay . the idea that women only make 77 cents of a dollar that a man makes. if you look at time out of the workplace and college major

the gap phrinks considerably. we need to ask ourselves if legislation is the answer to close it entirely. >> is that fairness for women given what sabrina is saying. >> she is correct that women are paid 77 cents for every dollar that a man is paid. i love the idea of merit paid. who doesn't? if is the way to be. to buy into this is to believe that women don't do as good of a job as men do, we know that that is ridiculous. let's not deny reality. women are not paid as fairly as men. it is that simple. >> elizabeth: what do you think? >> sabrina has it right. it explains a significant part of it and women are pursuing careers they rise right up there and they have other interest in life and that is reflected in the pay.

this bill will not enrich women. it would impoverish us all . the companies would be more curned with staying out of of trial lawyers than expanding the accident. >> elizabeth: women take social worker jobs and not higher paid engineers and women tend not to go in and demand higher pay. i talked to a wall street ceo. you women, you are not used to asking for pay. you are not used to being rejected. boys had to approach you on the playground and we were reject would. what do you make of na? >> that is valid point . in theory, i loch the idea of merit pay. we wouldn't have this discussion at all . this wouldn't be up for debate if there was not discrimination in the work force.

pay scale. data firm pay scale crunched the numbers and they took all of those outside variables into play and found one-four pay differences between women and men in the job. >> you are talking about doctors? >> yes, reports on doctors on the so called pink collar like nursing and teaching. i know the tech jobs gap is changing some. it depends on the field. >> elizabeth: iment to go to john. margaret thatcher was always so strong about this issue. she said i had to fight for myself. we have in the books john, dating back to hep 63 or hep 64 civil rights laws that say women gets equal pay. why do we need another pay? >> i think the notion of that is cruel to women.

going forward it would call into question their achievements as though they were made in the ballot box than performance. the markets will bring a new reality and businesses will avoid hiring women because they don't want to pay something that the markets will not bear. >> elizabeth: mike? >> you take away merit pay. you decrease the incentive of people being productive that. is important to a capitalistic economy and that's why thatcher able to turn it around in two short years. >> elizabeth: rich, go ahead. what gdp. unemployment was up . unemployment in two years. >> i will come back to you in a second.

my good friend, steve i don't want to accuse him of old school thinking. women have other that's why they were paid less. no, men have other interest. they play golf and that is the problem. >> elizabeth: sorry sabrina. >> the men over all and this is changing thankfully looly. men do focus on is therecareers whether it is on golf course or anywhere else. women do the same thing they rise up. in free market you want the best people possible. >> elizabeth: let's hope the female editors at forbes get equal pay. >> you would get superior pay. >> elizabeth: so would is sabrina and morgan. >> and multitrillion priceag and why illegal immigration reform should never happen and that is on the bottom of the hour . so why are air travelers

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♪ >> elizabeth: welcome back, everybody. complaints are soaring in the sky. gripes jumping . passengerings are tick would

off about over book bumping off ofs. you are cramped and you say things are going to get worse? >> it used to be that people were upset about planes being late. now adays, they are upset about the booking systems. it has happened to me . baggage . e airlines have control over these things and they don't seem to spend the time and attention to fix things they could be fixing. >> one of things are saying we'll reduce the size of the bathroom to seize in more seats. >> the demand for flights is strong and cost of operating the planes is high thanks to high fuel costs . the airlines will try to come up with creative ways to make a profit. >> interesting point of fuel prices. for consumers it is like

getting ready for military battle; is that behind it, too? >> fuel costs are the biggest thing . that's what they don't have control over and they squeeze everything else. we had a stable dollar you would have fuel costs half the cost they are today. >> and john, what do you think? >> i think steve is right about the fed. the airlines were created by the federal government long ago to move mail around the country and they have never understood service. they are not a real industry. if they didn't overbook, the price for me to fly would be expensiver. that means i get better prices. >> john, what does that mean. i don't get your argument. >> if they sell more tickets in different prices and overbook, they can get more

money for each flight. >> you have crabbier customers. morgan, i will guilty back to you in a second. stockings for airlines are not in up price. it is cranky consumers with all . fees going on? >> that is a issue and this problem will continue and there is so much demand for travel. airlines will add more flights. the department of the transportation found that all of the major airlines had cut thousands of flights and doing it to fill more seats that raises prices. >> i am sorry john, we'll leave it there. coming up. tiger is not the only one to see green from the masters. by the master stockings, you will see green, too. that's next.

>> elizabeth: time to tee up the gang's master stock. morgan. >> it has rising earnings. >> elizabeth: mike you like it? >> almost all of their stores are in texas. i don't like that and they are having trouble collecting from the coust mergs. receivers are rising. >> elizabeth: mike? >> i go with ibm. they have done are