a suite of online tools that lets you turn insight into action. neil: what the fox. it is not just fox. you know things are bad for the white house when all the media is turning on the white house and not just the media. take a look at this. >> the procedures you have or limitations you put on your justice department, the president has no limitation. >> that still doesn't answer the question what he faced being called accountable means. should people lose their job. >> what the irs did of course is inexcusable. >> the actions of the department have in fact impaired the first amendment. >> said that this process has been contaminated maliciously, so why don't you let -- >> take a look at what you're describing. >> owe mother [bleep]. what did you do ?!.

neil: even jon stewart. get ready, mr. president. you either get ahead of this or your head they will be calling for next on this. welcome everybody, i'm neil cavuto. even charlie is wrangling, congressman charlie rangel says this irs thing is over the stop he wants to get the bottom of it right now. the congressman is on the phone. congressman, what do you make of all this. >> i think it is outrageous. i think it undercuts the credibility of our country, of your treasury department. i'm glad that the president feels this way. we got to see some action. we've got to determine, even before the hearings are on friday, who is responsible for this, this conduct. this is irresponsible and there is no justification. neil: do you think, congressman, that i think it was speaker boehner said, they shouldn't only resign, some of the culprits should go to jail . what do you think of that? >> well, first of all you need criminal intent to go to jail. is it negligence? one thing is clear, it is

not responsible conduct. so i don't know whether we bring them up on charges but if there's any, any indication that someone deliberately broke the law and clearly this is against law, of course they shouldal be indicted. but more importantly than this, i think the president has set the tone for somebody, if they want their jobs, to get to the bottom of this, and should not wait until a hearing. we have met and, democrats and republicans and we hope that the president comes forward, the attorney general or the secretary of treasury with some answers that america, the congress and the people believes that we've got the culprit. and let me tell you this. it's difficult to collect taxes. the, our system is a voluntary system and i don't think the whole irs should be smeared by irresponsible conduct of a handful of people or at least to see where this cancer is and

whether it spread. so the quicker we get our handle on what it is in a nonpartisan way, i might also add, that this 501(c)(3), c-4, rather, lends itself to corruption by politicians. that is another issue we should have dealt with a long time ago because it left too much discretion --. neil: you're right. it is what it is but i want to raise something, doug wilder the former virginia governor had to tell me on fox news today, congressman. that the president has, to your point got to get in front of this. if he gets into the weekend without addressing this, doing something in response, in a substantive way about, this could slip right past him. this could be uncontrollable. what do you think of that? >> i have no idea. i went to school for law not psychology but the truth of the matter is the quicker he gets for this the better for our country, for him and for irs. of course this thing puts a

fright in everybody that the federal government can determine what your beliefs are before they give you what you are entitled to under the law. and this is wrong. whether it is republican or democrat or liberal or conservative, it is wrong. and the quicker we get to the reason for this cancer and, quicker we know it will not spread. and so i don't want to talk about what happens to the president. i am more concerned what happens to the integrity of the treasury department. the congress's integrity is already shot and we can't afford too many hits like this if people are going to have confidence in these public officials, whether they're appointed or elected or selected. neil: congressman, thank you. >> thank you, neil. neil: meanwhile the justice department targeting reporters. the irs harassing conservatives. a whole administration supposedly revising benghazi talking points and the boss didn't know any of this was going on? to a former corporate boss who says that doesn't say

much about, well the boss but does require swift and immediate action from the boss. former mcdonald's usa chief says it it is time for the president to start kicking some buns. pretend you're the president of the united states. you met with treasury officials at white house. you're trying to get to the bottom of this. what do you do? >> you have to take decisive action. i used to have franchises, mcdonald's has got great franchisees but every once in a while we would have somebody do something outside our standards we couldn't deal with. neil: like what? like what? >> we took i am maid i can't think action. change in product. change in product recipes. holding product because hey could make a couple pennies by exceeding shelf life. those things are intolerable. you either have standards or you don't. you have integrity or you don't. you have transparency or you don't. there has been a history in this white house getting away with nonsense. this is another example

after ceo not having the standards necessary to let his people know that he will not tolerate that stuff. neil: do you, or how did you deal with people who were trying to read your mind, ed, or get a sense of, actions they could take that would make you happy? in other words, i'm not saying the president was behind any of these actions. i am, i have a suspicion though that he provided the atmosphere that allowed them to do things they thought the boss would like. what do you make of that? >> well, absolutely. when you're a micromanager and you're not strategic, your people always wonder what you're thinking about next and what can i do to get ahead of the curve because they want to please you. it is their future. it their five. it is their history and their glory. that is the worst damn thing in the world to have that happen. ceo's have to be tough. neil: we hear and see the president cite the supreme court justices in his state of the union speech which he blasts the citizens united speech or the decision that led toe a lot of these

mushrooming conservative groups, tea party groups, claiming tax-exempt status and all the rest. and many of his loyalthought, fe ends would justify the means of going after these groups. so he planted the seeds in that respect? >> ceo's always set the tone when it comes to integrity, process, procedures and the way you're going to have your culture develop. and the president of the united states is the captain of the ship. he is the guy --. neil: what if he is an aloof, ccptain, ed? what if he ort of like he is sort of detached, removed. he might have no criminal or sinister intent. he is just lazy or just out of it? and i'm not meaning to disparage him. i'm saying that could explain why the chiefs out of it and indians run amok. what do you make of it? >> it is called management by walking around. you go around and talk to everybody what the circumstances are, what the conditions are. you listen to everyone.

you read, you study. you have to be engaged as a ceo. you can't be passive and the leadership involved. you have to be aggressive. neil: right now the deed or deeds are done. the bad publicity is out there. the hearings are ensuing. you're barack obama right now, right now, what do you do? >> i would get ahold of the people in the treasury department, the irs and bring them into the oval office say i want to know who is getting hung and i want it know now. they know exactly who did this why drag it out for the next six months, go to hearing after hearing after hearing and --. neil: would you tell the acting commissioner, would you tell the acting commissioner whether you're directly responsible for this you're out, you're done, you're toast? >> absolutely. i would fire that guy, men or girl, whoever it is. it would be gone right now. to let this happen on their watch inexcusable. >> ed, thank you very much. i had a feeling you would be clear. you think the irs was getting into some

conservative faces? it gets worse. they were also getting in their facebook. when irs agents go psycho, time to call on a psychotherapist for some answers. we went out and asked pe a simple question: how old is the oldest person you've known? we gave people a sticker and had them show us. we learned a t of us have known someone who's lived well into their 90s. and that's a great thing. but even though we're living longer, one thing that hasn't changed much is the official retiment age. ♪ the question is how do you make sure you have the money yoneed to enjoy all of these years. ♪ to enjoy all of these years. if you've got it, you know how hard it can be to breathe

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>> anything to find something on them. forget about crossing the line. did the most feared government body on the planet just wipe out that line? to ron meyer, and steve laser and mercedes schlapp one word, wow! what do you make of this? >> also, neil, they're checking what books you're reading as well. what is next next, a photo of the children you have to give to them next? seriously this is the worst kind of political core are up shun -- corruption. we've seen both sides of congress coming to together

to say this is beyond mismanagement. the president has to take swift action. people have got to be fired. people have to go to jail. this is serious scandal i think is just haunting the president. and what is so unnerving when you have the president saying that he learned this on a news reports, i worked at white house and i got to tell you his advisors are not serving him right if he just found out through listening to the news or watching television. neil: ron, where do you think this is all going? >> well, i think it is incredibly sad. i think it is going to a point, who actually gave these orders to only go after conservative groups? it had to come from somewhere. i doubt it was a few rogue agents. that sun credible story that the white house is putting out. funny thing i've been on the receiving end of this. i worked for one of these 501(c)(4) and a 501(c)(3). i had to watch our own facebook and twitter because our lawyers told them, the irs said you better not just watch your company account but your employee's account. i couldn't say i liked one presidential candidate over

the othee because i had to be afraid the irs would audit my company. neil: steve, here's what concerns me about this. that, i actually think it is not a surprise if you're going to investigate people, you go to -- fair game, that is open, it is out there. rattles me a little bit but i would see why but they did appear to go to exhaustive efforts to, if not harm these individuals, slow down the process such that they would quit the application process. we talked to many on fox news who did just that. that was the desired intent. is that a criminal intent? >> i don't know if it is criminal. and i'm waiting to see the full nspector general report from the treasury. some of it is starting to come out. i will talk about that in a second. but one of the things that really infuriates me about this whole thing, we had liberal groups targeted in 2004. that was comes out. naacp was targeted. greenpeace was targeted. several black churches that

criticized president bush at that time. we didn't hear anything from the republicans. republicans are the folks that don't like the irs. would you have thought they would be first to complain --. neil: you're not justifying one or the other, right? >> i think there is someehing screwed up with the irs. i think that is something we should investigate. neil: maybe that one thing both sides mutually agreeing. it s abusive agency. >> i think we wait. the information coming from the ig. neil: we do know this much, scores of con stoif tiff groups were targeted. i think to steve's point we have seen the irs used as political tool what franklin roosevelt a john kennedy and richard nixon. it has been a biiartisan sneaky at stack. - attack. what i'm curious about, mercedes, do we want the entity in greater role on things like health care? we hired 16,000 irs agents to administer 49 provisions on health care. should we go slow on this entity all together? >> the irs will enforce the tax regulations for obamacare.

so i think giving them that oversight makes it more vulnerable to having these sort of political problems that we're seeing already. so, again, especially when we're seeing that, you know from the top down, from the commissioner down, these were problems that were happening, you know, one or two years ago. the fact that they didn't even address it or bring it up to the congress i think is an incredibly big issue. so giving them more power. expanding their role is incredibly worrisome, especially when it comes down to obamacare. neil: ron, the one thing i worry about in a crisis like this, normally you try to get ahead of it when something more is coming out. hence the apology last week from the irs. by the way, i don't know about you but i don't think the apology ever worked with me an irs. oh, i'm sorry, steve martin line, i forgot to pay my taxes. they never countenance that. be that as it may but they were ahead of something here and acting irs commissioner might, might have been aware of something more going on

here but and that was bigger. i talked to maay individuals who said, you know, found it odd i was audited. found it odd my company was audited. this might go way beyond what was thought. that at stake. this is far bigger crisis than what it is made out to be. >> always great when e see self-disclosure, but the problem why hadn't we found out before? why is it happening now? why this self-disclosure? there are a lot of questions that need to be answered. that is why we need an investigation. when you see the irs constantly picking winners and looser or political winners and loo others corporate losers we need more transparency with the irs. this is the problem with the irs existence in the first place. when we look what we're doing and doing to the entire system i think it is one of these things i think we should have greater scrutiny what they're doing whether on the corporate side or political side. this is great example why. people have their own motivations doing things especially political motivations in government. that could be greed.

it could be for politics. we need greater transparency why these types of things happen. neil: i do know, steve, to your point, this is good one, that this happened before, there were laws after watergate that would prevent this sort of thing happening again. whether rogue agents doing what they thought the boss would like them to do, even though the boss never said for them to do this it's happened again. how can we be so sure that it is safe giving the irs even more power when, when this is distinctly possible despite all the laws on the books, outlawing this? >> well, i spent some time thinking about this actually last night. neil: me too. minutes ahead of the show i was studying like crazy. >> i saw that i'm sick of this happening to both parties. i think everybody is. i think one of the things that should happen is, folks in charge of irs should come up with a plan on who they intend to audit, how they go about it and report to ranking members of the both committees in house and senate how they do that so there is complete transparency like ron said. there has to be transparency.

they shouldn't make you rups willy-nilly on the fly. neil: if the irs cops to interview you again, say, oh, i'm sorry. >> we'll give them your information. we'll friend you on facebook. neil: that would be nice. don't run away too far, folks. we'll see you back a little later in the show. meantime, did do you ever think, what were they thinking? why did anyone at the irs said, guys, this is wrong. this is illegal? why that didn't happen and why it means stuff like this will continue to happen. a... neil and buzz: for teaching us that you can't create the future... by clinging to the past. you're history. instead of looking behind... delta is looking beyond. 80 thousand of us investing biions... in everything from t best experiences below... to the finest comfts abo. we're not simply saluting hihiory... we're making it.

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neil: group think or group stink? it is hard to say. this much is not. when groups of people clearly follow marching orders to spy on lots of people that is not right, people, but that is clearly what happened at the irs, right? not an agent we know of

alerted higher-ups this going after conservative groups saying, it wasn't right. so how dud that happen? why does that happen? i am no psycho therapist. i have a friend who is damn good one and she can help make sense of this. when people are part of a group that they tend to believe the cause of that group justifies whatever that group does, then dr. ludwig, i would say that's a dangerous mix right there. >> i mean i think group-think says it all. because you're losing your individualty and so, people in the group, and i also am wondering too if they thought this focus on the tea party was coming from higher ups? neil: that's interesting. so you just assume you were doing the boss's bidding. >> that's right. that's right. so they want to conform and they want to create harm any and they lose sight of what's right and wrong. >> we see this again in corporate scandals and other things, doctor, where the for the good of the team, we want to say, this isn't

quite kosher what we're doing, but, but, we think the ends justify the means and that the ends here is a fair system where not every extreme group and its uncle can get tax-free status and all this we're going after, doong this disproportionally against the groups we don't like? >> i think there's a fear too, what's going to happen if i stand up for what's right? will i lose my job? will i be ousted? will people not like me? i mean --. neil: it is almost impossible to get fired. >> it doesn't matter. you could be disliked. you could end up really hating your job because people are making life difficult for you. i mean people do really want to acclimate to their surroundings. neil: why whistle blowers encounter the hell they do? >> that's right. neil: we talked to jeffrey wiegand, of brown williamson, the big tobacco concern. sharon from enron, detailed

the hell they had to pay because they bucked tide. hey, hey, this is wrong. then the death threats. then the names. >> or people feel powerless. who am i fail to make any big changes here? the higher-up are deciding what to do. i work for this company. i want to --. neil: when if they don't see it as criminal? >> yeah. neil: well, we have all these groups claiming this status and, you they, our job at the irs is for people to pay taxes and not form those bogus groups in their eyes that get away with that. and can take advantage of the tax system to have their way. so, that was the booming area, these groups are the booming area. they even had code words to find anything with patriot, lo and behold that's where it led. no one stepped back and said you know who we're singling out here? >> in a way our bosses become like parental figures, so if they're telling us

we're doing a good job focusing or targeting a certain group, a worker thinks i'm doing a good job. i'm doing what i was told to do. neil: are you saying they're aware that what they're doing is illegal? >> i think you lose awareness as a gripe. things you might do as an individual, when you're in a group you think, well other people are doing the same neil: but by your math this could happen again? >> it absolutely can happen again and it probably will happen again. and i don't know if we're really training people within organizations to think as individuals because that's a little frightening. if you really want somebody who works for you questioning what you tell them to do? maybe not so much. neil: but we can build smarter, bigger, tougher laws, just like we did post-watergate with the irs and this won't happen again? >> right. neil: it is very scary that this took place and i'm glad to see it is getting so much attention. i really am. neil: as a psychotherapist would you grant that entity more power over health care

in an environment like this? neil: what would you do? >> no. this is all very scary to me. neil: all right. >> to have so much bias within government. neil: doctor, thank you, very, very much. meantime take it from the guy ronald reagan famously brought to the woodshed. we get too wrapped up in these scandals at the expense of all else, we're all in deep, shed. david stockman next. . but i'll tell you what impresses me. a talking train. thise locomotive can tell you exactly where it is, what it's carrying, while using less fuel. delivering whatev the world needs, when it needs it. ♪ after all, what's the point of talking if you don't have something important to say? ♪

neil: well as the white house plays damage control, david stockman says the more at risk damaging our economy because ronald reagan's budget chief says the more of these scandals add to the president's problems the less washington will ever deal with our problems. like our deficit problems and, that, you say would be the biggest sin, potentially to come of this, right? >> it is unfortunate this is happening. as one was said when it comes to abuse of presidential power, obama's turning out to be the president that nixon aspired to be. i mean, this is really unfortuuate. neil: on a side note, you mention the nixon thing how does this compare to watergate or what you know of so far? way early in the process but some are citing the oddity of this is all 40 years almost to the day of watergate hearings. >> i was a little kid on capitol hill when all of this developed. neil: sure. >> from day to day you didn't know what was going to, shoe was going to fall next and it spread and it spread and pretty soon it

was like a whole scenario. neil: i remember, that was supposed to be a left-wing cabal against a republican president. >> so who knows. this is unfortunate there are huge problems facing the country. none of them is being addressed. a lot of cans are being kicked and the budget is more important. cbo is just as blame worthy of distracting the attention of congress than these scandals going on because they put out a forecast yesterday, that is just rosy scenario on steroids. it is a --. neil: deficits are tumbling the revenues are coming in. >> then the next thing you know the wags, you know --. neil: we don't have to cut. we don't have to cut. >> cbo says problem solved. this is what some blogger on "the washington post" said today believe the cbo forecast i have some swampland in florida. they suggest 40 years no recession or no economic dislocation we will create seven times more jobs in the

next decade than we did over the next decade with wage and salary growth two times what has been. >> that $642 billion it is a lot less than it was in well under $1 trillion and we can remember a time when deficits were approaching $100 billion now we celebrate 642 billion but whatever that is. >> of course, $50 billion is a pavement a tax gimmick from fannie mae. where do they get the 60 million? they borrow it. neil: a lot of it is a tax increase. that part is there temporarily because with the fiscal cliff came at the end of the year there was a huge pre-emptive realization and bonuses were paid and

100 billion as one time revenue. neil: so you say with a focus on the latest scandal and there are a lot of them we will be distracted. >> we almost have the imperfect storm with the stock market with a high of the fed monetary crack cocaine that is the stock market and distracted with scandals in washington and the cbo put out rosy scenario forecast saying the problem is solving itself. therefore there is no hope that the political machinery willing gauge and drift into the teefourteen election in both parties are positioning in 2014 and then they're adding tuesday long-term debt and long-term debt regardless of the onetime pickup is in the

$1 trillion range as far as the eye can see. neil: just like the golden moment. so they have said another spin on its. despite the spending initiative and that to add to the health care monstrosity that is what is going on besides better than expected earnings and the fed that is the backdrop. what do you make of that? >> the fed is fueling this boom. if you watch what people say every day the fed has my back. the economy, better words. >> it will buy $85 billion per month as far as the eye can see and it tells congress you can borrow five-year money for the 80 basis points. free. is a rounding error as far as they are concerned.

they are enabling the kind of paralysis. neil: how long can they do that? all of the central bank's are doing the same thing we now have a race to the bottom. why is the dollar rising over the last few weeks because the japanese central-bank in the ec is likely to uncorked even more >> turn that into full throttle watergate with irs said ben gauzy and you knew what and when and you remember the watergate summer and the huge distraction what would happen now? >> things can sneak up if washington becomes totally paralyzed as it is already this will finish the case. the fed is finally in a position where it has to get some signal. you cannot keep buying $85 million per month from

%-it is an accident waiting to happen in the market is artificial people doing it one day at a time before the start stampeding and it will not happen this is the most superficial, artificial market that we have had even going back. is the fourth couple of this century. we have dark, splattered 5 trillion was destroyed and the housing double splattered all over and the wall street bust in 2008 and we have simply reflated the same bubble. we have the some pride back of auto loans and speculating in the housing market particularly the hedge funds coming out. >> in some of the market's the prices are up of the

depressed levels but who knows what the right level is? there are organic buyers coming in because the young people have so much student that they cannot afford the down payment and the baby boomers will sell the castle into not buying it. where are the buyers coming from??3 people of middle age are buried in debt or barely worth the mortgage. neil: i want you to stop because you are depressing the whole lot of me. i hope a lot of you have had your dinner. in the meantime with a panic by all of this they have a funny way to show what because the earnings seem unaffected then there is the fed. with the economy is not so good?e on than what? question of blood flow.

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neil: a google rally and burger king all and a blitz %-salivating.ng you kugel ceo who is practically speechless larry page acknowledges vocal cord issues of makes it tough for him to speak and if progress could leave it impossible for him to speak but if investors were worried they did not take it out of the go-go stocks soaring to a the all-time high. so are you worried? >> i would be worried if it was his mind but thankfully it is just his vocal cords we hope him the best for a a full and speedy recovery and the mind is okay. what is kugel is the brightest minds in history and they are okay and that is why he stock is doing so well. idle think this is long-term e. defect may be the

unfortunate effect for him to step down look at intel has done quite well after management left the company. larry's condition should not bother investors and the stock goes higher from hear. >> when you run a business today i have employs all over the country i don't think i ever actually speak with them may be on a monthly basis. they're communicating by instant messenger or some time electronics and maybe some type of interoffice thing over closed-circuit television. neil: you just tell us you don't bother talking to your employees? >> no. stuff happens in realtime you are commuting you don't have to stand up the pulpit to give the speech. neil: and john deere says the famous earth moving equipment fears it will not move as much earth or

galvanizing as many investors. i have not heard caterpillar say that but what do you make of it?@ >> it is a weather related stock. my fear is with the weather delays for the harvest or it slows down construction that is when you went to buy john deere. they have the all-time high three weeks ago. there is a temporary slowdown but overall farm prices are sttong and farmers when they have money in their pocket they will buy some new equipment because they are junkies and love that stuff. >> but the farm economy is slowing. the commodities boom we have enjoyed over 12 years no question it is slowing. john deere is one beneficiary of that but just three weeks ago when the stock was up the all-time high i don't think it leaps further but i would not bet

against it but the commodities at this point* are the laggard and john deere is a part of the world. neil: burger king ribbing mcdonald's because burger king has plans to launch its own ribs and which later this spring but we don't know if it plays the same and peekaboo game as mcdonald's has with the now you see it now you don't stand which. >> ribs are hot. i am surprised. neil: it is not even a real reb it doesn't even look like a red. >> it is the pork product. >> now you colin the former pennsylvania governor? >> he tells me about the mcrib it is like what bacon was two years ago what avocado was two years before that as a hot menu item and burger king is smart to copy

to get an added at this point*. >> mcdonald's is not the only innovator. they have this mcrib they sell to the 17th through 20 year-old male that is the prime customer who eats out 3.five times every five days. could probably make a better product because the mcrib is a form piece of pork cartilage that the only reason they don't sell all year round they don't have enough product to make it for crying out loud >> people ito lot more rib in the summer but the competition of mcdonald's and burger king fighting over the best teesixteen which did we have this over the post office or education or health care? neil: that is an excellent point*. >> and the prices will be coming down and consumer wins in the bottler competition guess who wins? second summer in the prices will come down.

neil: both make and i sandwich and forget ribbing the attorney general should the president just fired his attorney general? it is time to let go of older. the sooner the better. alec, for this missn i upgraded your smart phone. ♪ ght. but the most important feature of all is... the capital one purchase eraser. can redeem the double miles i earned with my venture card to erase recent travel rchases. d with a few clis, this mission never happened. uh, what's this button do? [ electricity zaps ] ♪ you requested backup? yes. yes i did. what's in your wallet? ...amelia... neil and b for teaching us that you can't create the future... by clinging to the past. and with that: you' history. instead of looking behind... dea is looki beyond.

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neil: we have the brink because the white house has lost brinkley on this when it comes to this story that it is time for the president to give that he go to his attorney general that he cassolette eric holder go to make the go of it he is confident they will but the sooner they moved a better. for the best historian's this country has ever had joins me right now. blood is the reaction we have gotten from the folks

and you get mixed reactions but many years ago i wrote a biography undersecretary of the treasury and acheson tendered his resignation and fdr accepted it and to everybody else in the next decade learn to reside mike dean acheson. error calder has become a distraction to the obama administration. i am not saying obama should immediately fire holder but he owes them resignation to the white house because this whole summer will be eaten up with the attorney general under scrutiny and you'll have things like immigration reform in the coming weeks forgotten about and mired in scandal nothing wrong with residing and holder should consider that if he is not written that letter already.

>> as soon as one resigns they are looking to tee off the next and it wasn't enough it is like multiple attack clients and with the massacre of richard nixon to eventually get the of butler that one resignation often does not cut it. >> but the difference is eric holder did not break the law. neil: we don't know that. >> but he should be able to step aside we have lost the art of resignation. you have to serve the president and holder is hurting from obama and will continue. what is the point* to stay on? many people stepping down. >> with a new could save the treasury secretary lew and if he oversaw the department

that oversaw the iras or other agencies that might or might not have cobbled together consistent talking points you could go through a firing squad. >> so to release the white house e-mail's the president will be addressing the irs and heads will roll and giving this speech tonight that leaves the ap scandal and the shop had over reach not only is infuriating republicans but "the new york times" it was a massive overreach and holder should step aside. it is not the end of the world gonzales and others. neil: you are right. i and the stand but this administration, and this president why is this happening to this president? did he provide the atmosphere or the dynamics? for those who were working

under him to do dissatisfied that it retrospect look weird? >> things just happened there three bad things happening at once but then gauzy could have been taking care about once and instead it was the ostrich approach and you can understand the white house is not wrong with of short attention span and these could be very much forgotten but when they are hit at once you have washington up in arms and the thought you can wait to it out seems to be remote and i am simply suggesting holder should do the right thing to give the letter of resignation. neil: this is nothing like watergate 40 years ago. with the attitude that prevails some call it

chicago politics style way to be in-your-face policy that is called into question >> i think the irs seems to be isolated cases but the president seems firm and i am sure he is addressing the country that he will make sure the right people are dismissed. i don't think that came from the white house but brock obama has not been damaged yet but holder holds the key to future damaging and he simply resigns. people come and go and half of the cabinet officers left already from the first term. why not holder? why cling to the next three years of the attorney general that many people don't have confidence and? neil: douglas brinkley we shall see. good to have you. when consumer protection groups protect themselves and what makes you think they are interested in protecting you? the news that you may not

want to use. after this.

neil: they are supposed to look out for you but today they are looking now for themselves first the consumer protection in vero workers voting to unionize that is not good for consumers. would you make of this? >> we saw this with tsa when they decided to unionize as well when it should be more about national security and they're more concerned about what they need to wear and what benefits they will get what is interesting with the consumer financial protection and bureau is this came about because of office space they are moving into new headquarters there in cramped spaces. , if you're part of a

startup company in the basement they are like a prima donnas in this way so it is unfortunate and they are more concerned about protecting themselves about necessarily dealing with protecting consumers right now. >> is the government agency? not that fannie mae is a good example but unionizing it seems to be not the ideal priority. >> i support the rights of all workers to collectively organize. neil: organizing for the first time? >> i think every worker has the right to and if you don't you will not get the best wages and benefits you can from management. neil: you work from the government. >> not necessarily. can support the conversation

don't think necessarily they deserve their own offices but they can give certain things up thinking give up wages but envy is the wrong thing i think sometimes people approached this from envy then you should collectively organize and form a union. that is the answer. >> with the group's first priority to unionize a self we think it is not looking at anyone beyond initially. that is not encouraging. >> it shows greed and self-interest are not limited to the private sector but every single person and especially these agencies have a self-interest wanting nice things for themselves we have to wonder where is the taxpayer protection agency? the problem with private-sector unions why fdr opposes them is that only do they collectively

bargain but also pay their employers by giving huge campaign ontributions unions donate to the politicians and they decide the salaries. we have this relationship that is destructive and that is why there is collective bargaining there should not be political donations. you have to pick one or the other or it is a vicious are heard.e the taxpayers neil: that is my take away with babies and with the union entity and is that the built-in bias? >> the way i view it is if you look at tsa the majority of that union money only 3 percent goes to republican candidates. the rest of the money goes to liberal causes and demooratic candidates so it is incredibly biased i believe and we will see this with this particular bureau which in fact, they get higher wages than regular

government workers. the biggest complaint in this case was about office space which i believe is so ridiculous as speciallyybred we consider sequestration cuts and the pentagon furlough civilian employees. neil: but even before this the securities and exchange commission looking at safeguarding this type of stuff and the fdic so we just created a new entity that i guess will work along with these? i have no idea. is another the administrative mmx. >> i will give this to mercedes andron if they are willing to join the democrats to get rid of citizens united i will get rid of democrats contributing to the campaign neil: and the ira's targeting? >> that anyway but then i will go with unions. neill that is not a justification? >> absolutely not.

neil: wish we had more time but that is a bombshell at the good of flood -- a the end of the discussion. we will continue to monitor the fallout from all of these scandals. we will see you then. . gerri: awaiting a statement from preside obama on any minute for the scandal of the irs just by dezhnev, it's the agency gave the liberal groups a pass and how much scrutiny was given too conservative toarty groups of this when the irs once more pow, emplees and a bigger budget. rich jensehas been following this story all week long and this is an extraordinary scandal that involves a white housend the president obviously he will want to contain this quickly. >> absolutely. this is not a briefing room statement