neil: what the fox. it is not just fox. you kno things are bad f the white house when all the dia is turning on the white house and not just the medi take a look at this. >> the procedures you have or limitations you put on your jtice department, the president has no limitation. >> that still doesn't answer the question what he faced being called accountable means. should people lose their job. >> what the irs did of course isnexcusable. >> the actions of the department have in fact impaired the first amendment. >> said that this process has been contaminated maliciously, so why don't you let -- >> take a look at what you're describing. >> owe mother [bleep]. what did you do ?!.

neil:ven jon stewart. get ready, mr. president. you either get ahea of this or your head they will be calling for next on this. welcome everybod, i'm neil cavuto. even charliesrangling, congressman charli rangel says tis irs thing is over the stop he wants to g the bottom of it right now. the congressman is on the phone. congressman, what do you make of all this. >> i think it is orageous. i think it undercuts the credibility of our country, of your treasury department. i'm glad that the president feels this way. we got to see some action. we've got to determine, even before the hearings are on frid, who is responsible r this, this conduct. this is irresponsible and there is no justification. neil: do you think, congressman, that i think it was speaker boehner said, they souldn't only resign, some of the culprits should go to jail . what do you think of that? >> well, first of all you need criminal intent to go to jail. is it negligence? one thing is clear, it is

not responsible conduct. so i don'tnow whether we bring th up on charges but if there's any, any indication that someone deliberately broke the law and clrly this is against law, of course they shouldal be indicted. but more importantly than this, i think the president has t the toneor somebody, if they want their jobs, to get to the bottom of this,nd should not wait until a hearing. we have met and, democrats and republicans and we hope that the president comes forward, the attorney general or the secretary of treasury with some answers that america, the congress and the people believes that we've got the culprit. and let me tell you this. it's difficult to collect taxes. the, our system is a voluntary system and i don't think the whole irs should be smeared by irresponsible conduct of a hdful of peopler at least to see where this cancer is and

whether it spread. so the quicker we get our handle on what it is in a nonpartisan way, i might also add, that this 501(c)(3), c-4, rather, lends itself t corruption by liticis. that is another ise we should have dealt with a long time ago because it left too much discretion --. neil: you're right. it is what it is but i want to raise somethin, doug wilder the rmer virginia governor had to tell me on fox news today, congressman. that the president has, to your point got to get in front of this. if he gets into the weekend without addressing this, doing g something in response, in a substantive way about, this could slip right pas him. this could be uncocontrollable. what do you think of that? >> i have no idea. i went to school for law not psychology but the truth of the matter is the quicker he gets for this the better for our country, for him and for irs. of course this thing puts a

fright in everybody that the federal government can determine what your beliefs e before they give you what you are entitled to under the law. and this is wrong. whether it is republican or democr or liberal or consvative, it is wrong. and the quicker we get to the reason for this cancer and, quicker we know it will not spread. and so i don'twant to talk about what happens to the president. i am more concerned what happens to the integrity of the treasuryepartment. the congress's integrity is already sh and we can't affo too many hits like this if people are going to have confidence in these public officials, whether they're appointed or elected or selecd. neil: congressman, thank you. >> thank you, neil. neil: meanwhile the justice department targeting porters. the irs harassg conservatives. a whole administration supposedly revising benghazi talking points and the boss didn't know any of this was going on? to a former crate boss who says that doesn't s

much about, well the boss but does require swift and immedie action from the boss. former mcdonald's usa chief says it it is time for the president to start kicking some buns. prend you're the president of the united states. you met with treasury officials atwhite use. you're trying to get to the bottom of this. what do you do? >> you have to ta decisive action. i used to have franchises, mcdonald's has got great franchisees but every once in a while we would have somebody do something outside our standards we couldn't deal with. neil: like what? like what? >> we took i am maid i can't think action. change in product. change in product recipes. holding product because hey could make a couple pennies exceeding shelfife. those thingsgs are inlerable. you either have standards or you don't. you have integrity or you don't. you have transparency or you n't. there has been history in this white house getting away with nonsense. this is another example after c not having the

standards necessary to let his people know that he will not tolerate that stuff. neil: do you, or hid you deal with peoe who were trying to read your mind, ed, or get a sense of, actions they could take that would make you happy? in other words, i'm not saying the president was hind any of these actions. i am, i have a suspicion though that he provided the atmosphere that allowed them to do things they thought the boss would like. what do you make of that? >> well, absolutely. when you're a micromanager and you're not strategic, your people always wonder what you're thinking about next and what can i do to get t ahead of the curve because they want to please you. it is their future. it their five. it is their history and their glory. that is the worst damn thing in the world to have that happen. ceo's have to be tough. neil: we hear and see the president cite the supreme court justices in his state of the union speech which he blasts the citizens uited speech or the decision that led toe a lot of these

shroing conservative groups, tea party groups, claiming tax-exempt status and all the rest. and many of his loyal horts thought, for, the ends would justify theeans of going after these groups. so he planted the seeds in that respect? >> co's always set the tone when it comes to integrity, process, proceres and the way you're going to have your culture develop. and e psident of the united states is the captain of the ship. he is the guy --. neil: what if he is an aloof, ccptain, ed? what if he ort of like he is sort of detached, removed. he might have no criminal or sinister intent. he is just lazy or just out of it? and i'm not meaning to disparage him. i'm saying that could explain why the chiefs out of it and indians run amok. what do you make of it? >> it is called management by walking around. you go around and talk to everybody at the circumstances are, wt the conditions are. you listen to everyone.

you read, you study. you have to be engaged as a ceo. you can't be passive and the leadership involved. you have t be aggressive. neil: right now the deed or deeds are done. the ba publicity is out there. the hearings are ensuing. you're back obama right w, right now, what do you do? >> i would get ahold of the people in the treasury department, the irs and bring them into the oval office say i want to know who is getting hung and i wa it know now. they know exaly who did this why drag it out for the next six months, go to hearing after hearing after hearin and --. neil: would you tell the acting commissioner, would you tell the acting commissioner whether you're directly responsible for this you're out, you're done, you're toa? >> absutely. i would fire that guy, men or girl, whoever it is. it would be gone right now. to let this happen on their watch inexcusable. >> ed, thank you very much. i had a feeling you would be clear. you thinthe irs was getting into some

conservative faces? it gets worse. they were also getting in thei facebook. when irs ages go psycho, time to call on a psychotherapist for some answers. why are twice as many people choosingerizon over any other carer? many choose us because we have the largest 4glte network. others, because of our reputation for reliability. or maybe it's because we've received jd power and associates' customer service award 4x in a row. in the end, there e countless reasons. but one choice.

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>> anything to find something on them. forget abo crossing the line. did the most feared government body on the planet just wipe out that line? to ron meyer, and steve laser and mrcedes slapp one word, wow! what do you make of this? >> also, neil, they're checking what books you're reading as well. what is next next, a photo of the children you have to give to them ne? seriously this is the worst kind of political core are up shun -- corruption. we've seen both sides of congress coming to together

to say this is beyondthe preside swifaction. people have got to be fired. people have to go to jail. this is serious scandal i think is ju haunting the president. and what is so unnerving when you have the president saying that he learnedthis on a news reports, i worked at white house and i got to tell you his advisors are not serving him right if he st found out through listening to the news or watching television. neil: ron, where doou think this is all going? >> well, i think it is incredibly s. i think it is going to a point, who actually gave ese orders to only go after conservative groups? it had to come from somewhere. i doubt it was a few rogue agents. that sun credible story that the white house is putting out. funny thin i've been on the receivinend of this. i worked for one of these 501(c)(4) and a 501(c)(3). i had to watch our own facebook and twitter because our lawyers told them, the irs said you better not just wah your comny account but your employee's account. i couldn't say i liked one presidential candidate over

the othee because i had to be afraid the irs would audit my company. neil: steve, here's what concerns me aboutthis. that, i actually think it is not a surprise if you're going to investigate people, you go to -- fair game, that is open, it is out ere. rattles me a little bit but i would see why but they did appear to go to exhaustive efforts to, if not harm these individuals, slow down the process such that they would quit the application ocess. we talked to many on fox news who did just that. that was the desired intent. is at a iminal intent? >> i don't know if it is criminal. and i'm waiting to see the full nspector general report from the treasury. some of it is starting to come out. i will talk about that in a second. but one of the things that really infuriates me about this whole thing, we had liberal groups targeted in 04. that was comes out. naacp was targeted. greenpeace was tgeted. several black church that

criticized president bush a that time. we didn't hear anything from the republicans. republicans are the folks that don't like the irs. would you have thought they would be first to complain --. neil: you're not justifying e or the other,ight? >> i think ere is someehing screwed up with the irs. i think that is something we should investigate. neil: maybe that one thing both sides mutually agreeing. it s abusive agency. >> i think we wait. the information coming from the ig. neil: we do know this much, scores of con stoif tiff groupsere targeted. i think to steve's point we have seen the irs used as political tool what franklin roosevelt a john kennedy and richard nixon. it has been a biiartan sneaky at stack. - attack. what i'm curious about, mercedes, do we want the entity in greater role on things like health care? we hed 16,000 irs agents to administer 49 provisions on health care. should we go slow on this entity all together? >> the irs will enforce the tax regulations for obamacare.

i think giving them that oversight makes it more vulnerable to having the sort of political problems that we're seeing already. so, again, especially when we're seeing tat, you know from the top down, from the commissionerown, these were problems that were happening, you know, one or two years ago. the fact thathey didn't even address it or bring it up to the congress i think is an incredibly big issue. so giving them more power. expanding their role is incredibly worrisome especially when it com down to obamacare. neil: ron, the one thing i worry abt in a crisis like this, normally you try to get ahead of it when something more is coming out. hence the apology last week from the irs. by the way, i don't know about you but i don't think the apology ever worked with me an irs. oh, i'm sorry, steve martin line, i forgot to pay my taxes. they never countenance that. be that as it may but they were ahead of something here and acting irs commissioner might, might have been aware of something more going on

re but and that was bigger. i talked to maay iividuals who said, you know, found it odd i was audited. found itdd my company was audid. this might go way beyond what was thought. th at stake. this is far bigger crisis than what it is made out to be. >> always great when e see self-disclosure, but the problem why hadn't we found out before? why is it happening now? whthis self-disclosure? there are a lot of questions that need to be answered. that is why we need an investigation. wh you see the irs constantly picking winners and looser or political winners and loo others corporate loserswe need mo transparency with the irs. this is the problem with the irs existence in the first place. when we look what we're doing and doing to the entire system i think it is one of these things i think we should have greater scrutiny what they're doing ether on the corporate side or political side. this is greatxample why. peop have their own motivations doing things especially political tivations in government. that could be greed.

it could be for politics. we need greater transparency why these types off things happen. neil: i do know steve, to your point, th is good one, that this happened before, there were laws after watergate that would prevent this sort o thing happening again. whether rogue agents doing wh they thout the boss would like them to do, even though the boss never said for them to do this it's happened again. how n we be so sure that it is safe giving the irs even more power when, when this is distinctly possible despite all the laws on the books, outlawing this? >> well, i spent some time thinking about thi actually la night. neil: me too. minutes ahead of the show i was studying like crazy. >> i saw thati'm sick of this happening to both parties. i think everybody is. i think one of the things that should happen is, folks in charge of irsshould come upith a plan on who they intend to audit, how they go about it and report to ranking members of the both mmitteesin house and sena how they do that so there is complet transparency like ron said. there has to be transparency.

they shouldn't make you rups willy-nilly on the fly. neil: if thers cops to interview you again, say, oh, i'm sorry. >> we'll give them your information. wel friend you on facebook. neil: that would be nice. don't run away too far, folks. we'll e you back a little later in the show. meantime, did do you ever think, what were they thinking? why did anyone at the irs said, guys, this isrong. this is illegal? why that didn't happen and why it means stuff like this why it means stuff like this will continue to happen. all stations come over to mission a for a final go. this is for realhis time. step seven point two one two. rify and lock. command is locd. five seconds. three, two, one. standing by for capture. the most innovative software on the planet... dragon is captured. is connecting today's leading companies to places beyond it.

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neil: group thi or group stink? it is hard to say this much is not. when groups of people clearly follow marching orrs to spy on lots of people that is not right, people, but that is clearly what happened at the irs, right? not an agent we know of

alerted higher-ups this going after conservative groups saying, it wasn't right. so how dud that happen? why does that happen i am no psycho trapist. i have a friend who is damn good one and she can help make sense of is. when people are part of a group that they tend to believe the cause of that group justifies whateve that group does, then dr. ludwig, i would say that's a dangero mix rit there. >> i mean i think group-think says it all. because you're losing your individualty and so, people in the group, and i also am wondering too if they thought this focus on the tea party was coming from higher ups? neil: that's interesting. so you just assume you were doing the boss's bidding. >> that's right. that's right. so they want to conform and they want to create harm any and they lose sight of what's right and wrong. >> we see thisgain in corporate scandals and other things, doctor, where the for the good of the team, we want to say, this isn't quite kosher what we're

doing, but, but, we think the ends justify the means and that the ends here is a fair system where not every extreme group and its uncle can get tax-free status and all this we're going after, doong this disproportionally against the groups we don't like? >> i think there's aear too, what's going to happen if i stand up for what's rit? will i lose my job? will i be ousted? will people not like me? i mean --. neil: it is almost impossible to get fired. >> it doesn't matter. you could be dislid. you cod end up really hating your j because people are making life difficicult for you. i mean people do really want to acclimate to their surroundings. neil: why whistle blowers encounter the hell they do? >> that's right. ne: we talked to jeffrey wiegand, of brown williamson, the big tobacco concern. sharon from enron, detailed

the hell they had to pay because they bucked tide. hey, hey, this is wrong. then the death threats. then the names. >> or people feel powerless. who am i fail to make any big changes here? the higher-up are deciding what to do. i work for this company. i want to --. neil: when if they don't see it as criminal? >> yeah. neil: well, have all these groups claiming this status and, youhey, our job at the irs is for people to pay taxes and not form those bogus groups in their eyes that get away with that. and can take advantage of the tax system to have their way. so, that was the booming area, these groupsre the booming area. they even had code words to find anything wit patriot, lo and behold that's where it led no one stepped back and said you know who we're singling out here? >> in a way our bosses become like parental figures, so if they're telling us we're doing a good job

focusing or targeting a certain group, a worker thinks i'm doing a good job. i'm doing what i was told to do. neil: are you saying they're awarehat what they're doing is illegal? >> i think you lose awarenesas a gripe. things you might do as an individual, when you're in a group you think, well other pe are doing the se thing i'm doing. neil: but by your math this could happen again? >> it aolutely can happen again and it probably will happen again. and i don't know if we're really training people within organizations to think as individuals because that's a little frightening. if you really want somebody who works for you questioning what you tell them to do? maybe not so much. neil: but we can bui smarter, bigger, tougher laws, just like we did post-watergate with the irs and this won't happen again? >>ight. neil: it is very scacary that this tookplace and i'm glad to see it is getting so much atteion. i really am. neil: as a psychotherapist would you gra that entity more pow over health care

an environment like this? neil: what would you do? >> no. this is all very scary to me. neil: all right. >> to have so much bias within government. neil: doctor, thank you, very, very much. meantime take it from the guy ronald reagan famously brought to the woodshed. we get too wrapped up in these scandals at the expense of all ee, we're all in deep, shed. it's a brand new start. withenturylink visionary cud infrastructure, and custom communinications solutions, yo business is more reliable, secure, and agile. i'm maria, and i have diabetic nerve pain. i felt like my feet were going to sleep. it was like pins nd needles sticking in your toes and in your feet. it progressed from there to burning like i was walking on hot coals. at that point, i knew i had to do something. when i went to see my doctor, she chose lyrica. once i staed taking the lyrica,

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neil: well as the white house plays damage control, david stockman says the more at risk damaging our economy because ronald reagan's budget chief says the more of these scandals add tohe president's problems the less washington will ever deal with our problems. like our deficit problems and, that, you s would be the biggest sin, potentially to come of this, right? >>t is unfortunate this is happening. as one was said when it comes to abuse of presidential power, obama's turning out to be t president that nixon aspired to be. i mean, this is really unfortuuate. neil: on a side note, you mention the nixon thing how does this compare to watergate or what you know of so f? way early in the process but some are citing the oddity of this is all 40 years almost to the day of watergate hearings. >> i was a little kid on capitol hill when all of this developed. neil: sure. >> from day to day you didn't know what was going to, shoe was going to fall next and it spread and it spread and prty soon it was like a whole scenario.

neil: i remember, that was supposed to be a left-wing cabal against a republican president. >> so who knows. this is unfortunate there are huge problems facing the country. none of them is being addressed. a lot of cans are being kicked and the budget is more important. cbo is just as blame worthy of distracting the attention of congre than these scdals going on because they put out a forecast yestery, that is justosy scenario on steroids. it i a --. neil: deficits are tumbling the revenues are coming in. >> then the next thing you know the wags, y know --. neil: we don't have to cut. we don't have to cut. >> cbo says problem solved. this is what some blogger on "the washington post" said today believe the cbo forecast i have some swampland in florida. they suggest 40 years no recession or no economic dislocion we will create seven times more jobs in the

next decade than we did over the next decade with wage and salary growth two times what has been. >> that $642 billion it is a lot less than i was in well under $1 trillionnd we remember a time when deficits were approaching $100 billion now we celebrate 642 billn but whatever that . >> of course, $50 billion is a pavement a tax gimmick from fannie mae. where do they get the 60 million? they borrow it. neil: a lot of it is a tax increase. that part is there temporarily because with the fiscal cliff came at the end of the year there was a huge pre-emive realization and bonuses were paid and

100 billion as one time revenu. neil: so you sayith a focus on the latatest scandal and there are a lot of them we will be disacted. >> we almost have the imperfect storm with the stock market with a high of the fed monetary crack caine that is the stock market and diracted with scdals in washington and the cbo put out ro scenario forecast saying the problem is solving itself. therefore there is no hope that the political machinery willing gauge and drift into the teefourteen election in both parties are positioning in 2014 d then they're addintuesday long-term debt and long-term debt regardless of the onetime pickup is in the

$1 trillion range as far as the eye can see. neil: just like the golden moment. so they have said another spin on its. despite the spending initiative and that to add to the health care monstrosity that is what is going besides better than expected earnings and the fed that is the backdrop. what do you make of that? >> the fed is fuelinthis boom. if you watch what people say every day the fed has my back. the economy, better words. >> it will buy $85 billion per month as fars the eye can see and it tells congress you can borrow five-year money for the 80 basis points. free. is a rounding error as far as they are concerned.

they arenabling e kind of paralysis. neil: how long can they do that? all of the central bank's are doing the same thing we now have a race to the bottom. why is the dollar rising over the last few weeks because the japanese central-bank in thec is likely to uncorked even more >> turn that into full throttle waterte with irs said ben gauzy and you knew what and when and you remember the watergate summer and theuge distraction what would happen now? >> things can sneak up if washington beces totally paralyzed as it is already this will finish the case. the fed is finally in a position where it has to get some signal. you cannoteep buying $85 million per month from

%-it is an accident waiting to happen in the market i artificial people doing it one day at a time before th start stampeding and it will not happen this is the most superficial, artificial market that we have had even going back. is the fourth couple of this century. we have dark, splatred 5 trillion was destroyed and the housing double splattered all over and the wall seet bust in 2008 and we have simply reflated the same bubble. we have the some pride back of auto loans and speculating in the housing market particularly the hedge funds coming out. >> in some of the market's the prices are up of the

depressed levels but who ows what the right lev is? there are organic buyers coming in bcause the young people have so much student that they cannot afford the down payment and the baby boomers will sell the castle in not buying it. where are the buyers coming from??3 people of middle age are buried in debt or barely worth the mortgage. neil: i want you to stop because you are depressing the whole lot of me. i hope a lot of you have had your nner. in the meantime with a panic by all of this they have a funny way to show what because the earnings seem unaffected then there is the fed. with the economy is not so with the economy is not so good? you hurt my feelings, todd. i did? when visa signature asked everybody what upgraded experiences really mattere.. you suggeed luxury car service

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neil: a google rally and burger king all and a blitz %-salivating.ng you kugel ceo who is practically speechless larry page acknowledges vocal cd issu of makes it tough fo him to speak and if progress could leave it impossible for him to speak but if investors were worried they did not take it out of the go-go stocks soaring to a the all-time high. so are you worried? >> i would be worried if it was h mindut thankfully it is just his vocal cords we hope him the best f a full and speedy recovery and the mind is okay. what is kugel is the brightest minds in history and they are okay and that is why he stock is doing so well. id think this is long-term e. defect may be the

unfortunate effect for him to step down look at intel has done quite well after management left the company. larry's coition should not bother investors and the stock goes higher from hear. >> when you run a business today i have employs all over the country i don't think i ever actually speak with them may be on a monthly basis. they're communicating by instant messengerr some time electronics and maybe some type of interoffice thing overlosed-circuit television. neil: you just tell us you don't bother talking to your employees? >> no. stuff hpens in realtime you are commuting you don't have to stand up the pulpit to give the speech. neil: and john deere says the famous earth moving equipment fears it will not move as much earth or

galvanizing as many investors. i have not heard caterpillar say that but what do you make of it?@ >> it is a weather related stock. my fear is with the weather delays f the harvest or it slows down construction that is when you went to buy john deere. they have the all-time high three weeks ago. there is a temporary slowdown but overall farm prices are sttong and farmers when they havemoney in their pocket they will buy some new equipment because they are junkies and love that stuff. >> but the farm economy is slowing. the commoditi boom we hav enjoyed over 12 years no question it is slowing. john deere is one beneficiary of that but just three weeks ago when n the stock was up the all-time high i don't think i leaps further but would not bet against it but the

commodities at tis point* are the laggard and john deer a part of the world. neil:burger king ribbing mcdonald's because burg king has plans to launch its own ribs and whi later this spring but we don't know if it plays the same and peekaboo game as mcdonald's has with the now you see it now you don't stand which. >> ribs are hot. i am surprised. neil: it is not even a real reb it doesn't even look like aed. >> it ishe pork product. >> now you colin the former pennsylvania governor? >> he tells me about the mcrib it is like what bacon was two years ago what avocado was two years before that as a hot menu item and burger king is smart to copy

to get an added at this point*. >> mcdonald's not the only inovator. they have this mcrib ey sell to the 17th through 20 year-old male that is the pre customer who eats out 3.five times every five days. cod probably make a better product because the mcrib is a form piece of pork cartilage that the only reason they don't sell a year round they don't have enough product to make it for ying out loud. >> people ito lot moreib in the sumr but the competition of mcdonald an burgering fighting over the best teesixteen which did weave this over the post office or education or health care? neil: that is an excellent point*. >> and the prices will be coming down and consumer wins in the bottler competition guess who wins? send summer in the prices will come down.

neil: both mak and i sandwichnd forget ribbing the attorney general should the president just fired his attorney general? it is time to let go my mother made the best toffee in the world. it's delicious. so now we've turned her toffee into a business. my goal was to take an idea and make it happen. i'm janet long and i formed my toffee company througlegalzoom. never really thought i would make money doing what i love. [ robert ] we created legalzoom to help people start their business and launch their dreams. go to legalzoom.com today and make your business dream a reality. at legalzoom.com we put the law on your side. the wright brothers became the first in flight. [ goodall ] i think the most amazing thing is howike us these chimpanzeeare. [ laughing ] [ woman ] can you hear me? and you hear your voice? oh, it's eiting! [ man ] touchdown confmed. we're safe on mars. [ cheers and applause ] ♪

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neil: we have the brink because the white house has lost brinkley on this when it comes to this story that it is time for the president to give that he go to his attorney general that he cassolette eric holder go to make the go of it he is confident they will but the sooner they moved a better. for the best historian's this coury has ever had joins me right now. blood is the reaction we have gotten from the folks

and you get mixed reactions but many years ago i wrote a biography undersectary of the treasury and acheson tendered his resignation and fdr accepted it and to everybody else in the next decade learn to reside mike dean acheson. error calder has become a distraction to the obama administration. i am not saying obama should immediately fire holder but he owes em resnation to the white house because this whole summer will be eaten up with the attorneyeneral under scrutiny and you'll have things like immigration reform in thecoming weeks forgotten about and mired in scandal nothing wrong with residing and holder should consider that if he is not written that letter already.

>> as soon as one resigns they are looking to tee f the next a it wasn't enough it is like multiple attack clients and with the massacre of richard nixon to eventually get the of butler th one resignation often does not cut it. >> but the difference is eric holder did not break the law. neil: we don't know that. >> but he should be able to step aside we have lost the art of resignation. you have to serve the president and holder is hurting from obama and will continue. what is the point* to stay on? many people stepping down >> with a new could save the treasury secretary lew and if he oversaw the department

that oversaw the iras or other agencies that might or might not have cobbled together consistent talking points you could go through a firing squad. >> so to release the white house e-mail's the president will baddressing the irs and heads will roll and giving this speech tonit that leaves the ap scandal and the shop had over reach not only is infuriating republicans t "the new york times" it was a massive overreach and holder should step aside. it is not the end of the world gonzales and others. neil: you are right. i and the stand t this administration, and this esident why is this happening to this president? did he provivide the atmosphere or the dynamics? for those who were working

under him to do dissatisfied that it retrospect look weird? >> thin just happened there three bad things happening at once but then gauzy could have been taking care about once and instead it was the ostrich approach and you can derstand the white house is not wrong with of short attention span and these could be very mch forgotten but when they are hit at once you have washington up in arms and the thought you can wait to it outeems to be remote and i am simply suggesting holder should do the right thing to give the letter of resignation. neil: is is nothing like watergate 40ears ago. with the attitude that prevails some ca it chico politics style way

to be in-your-face policy that is called into question >> i think the irs ses to be isolated cases but the president seems firm and i am sure he is addressing the country that he will make re the right people are dismissed. i don't think that came from the white house but brock obamhas not been damaged yet but holder holds the key to future damaging and he simply resigns. people ce andgo and half of the cabinet officers left already from the first term. y not holder? why cling to the next three years of the attorney general that many people don't have confidencend? ne: douglas brinkley we shall see. good to have you. when consumer protection groups protect themselves d what makes you think they are interested in protecting you? the news that you may not want to use.

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neil: they are supsed to look out for you but today they are looking n for themselves frst the consumer protectio in vero workers voting to unionize that is not good for consumers. would you make of this? >> we saw this with tsa when they decided to unionize as well when it shhould be more about national security and they're more concerned about what they need to wear and what benefits they will get what is interesting with the consumer financial protection and bureau is this came about because of office space they are moving in new headquarters therere in cramped space. , if you're part of a

startup company in the basement they are like a pra donnas in this way so it is unfornate and they are more concerned about protecting themselves about necessarily dealing with protecting consumers right now. >> is the government agency? not that fannie mae is a good example but unionizing it seems to be not the ideal priority. >> i support the rights of all workers t collectively organize. il: organizing for the first time >> i think every worker has the right to and if you don't you will not get the best wages and benefits you can from manement. neil: you work from the government. >> not necessarily. can support the conversation

don't think necessarily they deserve their own offices but they can give certain things up thinking give up wages but envy is the wrong thing i think sometimes people approacd this from envy then you should collectively organize and form a union. that is the answer. >> with the group's first priority to unionize a self we think it is not looking atnyone beyond initially. that is not encouraging. >> it shows greed and self-interest are not limited to the private sector but every single person and especially these agencies have a self-interest wanting nice thingsor themselves we have to wonder where is the taxpayer protection age the problem with private-sector unions why fdr opposes them is that only do th collectively

bargain but also pay their employers by giving huge campaign ontributions unions donatto the politicians and they decide the salaries. we have this relationship that is destructive and that is why there is collective bargaining there should not be polital donations. you have to pick one or the other or it is a vicious are heard the taxpayers neil: that is my take away with babies andwith the union entity and is that the built-in bias? >> the way i view it is if you look at tsa the majority of that union money only 3 percent goes to republican candidates. the rest of the money goes to liberal causes and demooratic candidates so it is incribly biased i believe d we will see this with this particular bureau which in fact, they get higher wages than regular

government workers. the biggest complaint in this case was about office space which i believe is so ridiculous as speciallyybred we consider sequestration cuts and the pentagon furlough civilian employees. neil: but even befo this the securities and exchange commission looking at safeguardi this type of stuff and the fdic so we just created a new entity that i guess will work along with these? i have no idea. is another the administrative mmx. >> i will give this to mercedes andron if they are willing to join the democrats to get rid of citizens united i will get rid of democrats contributing to the campaign neil: and the ira's targeting? >> that anywaybut then i will go with unions. neill that is not a justification? >> absolutely not.

neil: wish we had more time but that is a bombshell at the good oflood -- a the end of the discussion. we will continue to monitor the fallout. >> absolutely fantaic we will see you again. >> are you ready colonel? >> does america still have a true grit? space some why is taking a risk becoming illegal? and the that upsets the cowboy liberrian the idea you will retaliate can ban something is crazy. >> should this behavior be banned? it is time to toughen up this is it. >> these perdu engineers offended people because they are all white. is that offensive? at least some americans