special investigation into personal medical investigation. it all starts m neil: well, it's friday. do you know where your big government is? welcome, everybody, i'm neil cavuto. if nothing hasome out of these bubbling administration scandals, it is ts: big governnt could be in bi trouble, and apparently so is faith in that government, especially if it involves irs agents supervising large swaths of it. but leaving aside the public's rightful indignation over nosey agents, this is much bigger than the irs. this is the president's agenda itself, an agenda that now loo in tatters. if you're the white house right about now, do you seriously think you're going to have your way on almost anything now, on raising taxes again on anybody, or pushg through morereen energy initiatives for any one or having the upper hand on budget matters anytime soon?

now, i'm not saying the president is a lame duck, but all of these scandals have left him a badly wounded one, and the more these hearings into the irs, spying, the justice department snooping and whole agencies benghazi-revising, you'veot to a yourself something: is this the week the white house proved weak? it's trying to defense the indefensle and proved even weaker. no heart what comes of these various embarrassments, this much is clear: the president's best excuse was that he was, well, out of the loop. he has gone from hands-on to hands-off, but it is still going to hit his approval numbers hands down. because it is hard to pound the pulpit when you're taking a pounding in the polls. so is big gov being given the big shove? and will the political flout have money for democrats falling short? let's ask melissa francis and bob cusack. melissa, what do you think? >> i think that every time we see a scandal like this, i want to say these are the folks you put in charge of your heah

care, and how do you feel about that? i mean, that is really terrifying, and i used to say have you been to the dmv lately, have you seen what's going on at the post office, why would you put these people in charge of your health care? now we have an exact example. this sarah hall ingram who i in charge of the office tt decided on the tax-exempt status, she is now in charge of the irs' affordable care office. if that doesn't make you run screaming from big government, i don't know what will. neil: full disclosure, i'm in charge of the government's fitness program now, anything i can do to help. [laughter] noel, what do you make of this? up until now the president's had the upper hand on a lot of things, and now many republicans are seizing on this as a lnerability going into the 2014 midterm election, furthermore, particularly when it comes to men benghazi for hiy clinton. play this out money wise. >> many good god, this has been a horrible period for the

democratic party, and first of all, obama is the brand for the demoatic party. and everything from the ap to the irs to benghazi to going back to fast and furious, everything is hitting the fan, and it can't help but damage the brand, number one, which in turn helps the republican party build their brand. it's kind of like this. so, yes, neil, that's going to help us. it's going to help the gop raise money. because no one's going to want to give to this current administration any of the 2014 raises. it's going to affect things like going into 2014 with the, where i am, the pryor race. it's going to effect some of these gubernatorial races all around the united states. the hillary big rah-rah train, that's going to come to a screeching ht because, look, she's in the thick of it as well. so it's going to dry out a little bit of potential money so far. and, neil, i think we're going to find out whether the

democratic party, hillary clinton, everybody and the whole shebang has got a teflon brand. let's see if things can be thrown their way and not stick on 'em, but i think it's going to stick. neil: well, that's what you love, of course, because you raise money for these republicans. [laughter] history proves a lot of it can be short lived, bob. what do you think haens with these various scanls a these various hearings you've heard the watergate analogies and everything else. >> right. neil: how do you think this stacks u >> republicans have to watch for overreach here. we saw it with monica lewinsky, you had a lot of probes, and house republicans ended up losing two seats in 1998. they've been telling us, listen, we learned our lesson. i agree with melissa on the obamacare angle, they're nervous. we're going to see the bulk implemented on january 1, and you have this trust in government not just one agency like the gsa scandal. now yu've got the justice department, the state department, a member of congress

says they didn't follow the proper procedure. and, of course, you have this ongoing irs scandal. so this is, this is something that the democrats are very nervous about. i also think it could hurtrt immigration because, remember, the department of homeland security's going to get a lot more power if immigration reform is signed into law. neil: that's a very good point. i'd almost forgotten about that one. that's a good point about whether it's on the administration's agenda, at least short term it does. if you're pushing for expansion of health care, you'll still get it, i guess, but it's not going to happen rapidly and maybe not fall out the way you wanted with the irs. >> you would think so. and i think the biggest scandal this week might have been the ap scandal because you saw the press really transformed, you know, from these lap dogs to all of a sudden their toes were the ones that had been stepped on, and they were rraching up to bite. neil: how long do you think that lasts? think about that. >> i don't know. neil: i always think once a lemming, always a lemming. >> i don't know. i mean, they were very, very hostile. and as you see, you know, the white house continue to

stonewall and continue to say, you know, they say we would like to know more about this investigation and, and the white house just continues to stonewall on this, i don't know. i don't know if they relax at quite the same rate. we would hope not, and that could, you know, change things going forward. neil: you know, noel, 40 years ago when we had theirst watergate hearg kick off -- this very day -- one of the things that stood out in my mind looking back on it -- >> neil, you were not even born. neil: i wish that were the case. everyone dismissed the case that they would go nowhere, an embarrassment, a slowdown, but what happens in hearings is you have to hear a lot of folks, and they sometimes give conflicting testimony, and sometimes a bombshell is dropped like, oh, the president has a taping system. but that was then. i know different things could happen now. since there are so many scandals going on concurrently now, do you think the more this drags on, the more surprises we'll see? >> i think so. i think that we're going to

see -- i don't think that we have heard the fat lady sing, so to speak. i think there is so much more going on. when you have people joking should i watch the miniseries scandal, or should i just turn on the news and see, you know, what's coming wn the pipes next with the wte house, you know, from the money point of view this is going to do nothing but help build the coffers of any republican running, because all they have to do is use the current press on what's out there. so i know that your other guest had said somhing, you know, republicans don't need to be far reaching. yeah, i think that we need to get on this train now because now is when you take advantage. people are so disgusted, especially with the and whenever you hear irs, everybody, you know, everybody pretty much pays taxes. some don't, but everybody, you know, that's not real -- >> [inaudible conversations] yes, melissa. >> we do kit, we hate it, and when we ar about abuses, boy, it gets everyone incredibly angry. neil: but, bob, here's what i think where there cld be a

leak taken here. if you're the president, you've got an agenda not only to expand health care, to get these exchanges going by year's end, etc., i could imagine this slows a lot of that down. but does it damage youin budget negotiations? does it make it next to impossible to get further revenue increases, or is tat just a disconnect? we assume that's the case. but there's always going to have to be give and take in these negotiations, and that doesn't change. >> right. i think it does hurt the presidenbecause his ll numbers are going to take a hit from all these scandals. they are going to linger. they have to play defense for the next several weeks and months i think there's more, we're hearing a little bit more aboot irs. there's a lot more information going to come or out on the irs, and senator max baucus is indicating there's more to that story. i do think it hurts his standing. i don't think it gives republicans the upper hd, but clearly, the president is hurt by this. and as we go into the fall, these probes are still going to

be ongoing, i think, thiess a couple of them -- at least a uple of them. it could hurt him in a fiscal fight. neil: you know, melissa, there ara lot of people that look at the markets, and part of what's going on, they're rejoicing at that prospect. i always see this as ben bernanke, you'll be the last surviving adult. >> that's right. the market, at the end of the day, it's all abouten bernanke and, boy, when he heads for the exit, put your helmet on. it's going to be something. neil: assuming he has health care. [laughter] all right, guys, wayn't to thank u -- i want to thank you all. meanwhile, where are the whistleblowers? what if i told you they're a lot closer than you think? the read from one of this country's most celebrated whistleblowers, soelebrated russell crowe played him in a big movie. remember "the isider"? >> wipe that smirk off your face! >> associated with satisfaction,

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neil: the hearings starti, the irs chief's now talking, but behind the scenes the weeling and dealing just bginning to get more of these indians talking. legal experts have already told us on this very program that is how you get folks to testify in turn. you grant them som clemency and deals and just go. to jeffrey wagon who knows this process well, and he did it without a net. because when this famous whistleblower revealed to the world that tobacco giants were spiking their cigarettes, he invited the wrath of an entire industry. >> go on television and tell the truth? >> yes. >> is it newsworthysome. >> a portion of your

severance -- [inaudible] >> chapter and verse. neil: forever emblazoned in "the insider" in which russell crowe played his character. jeff, what do you think of these characters and what you've seen out of washington? i'm still waiting for the guys like you who might emer to reveal something more. maybe they're there, maybe theye not. what do you think? >> well, i mean, this whole process started with the irs in 2010. and we haven't seen muchch of ybody coming forward with what may have been immoral or criminal activities come forward. and it's kind of surprising that nobody has stepped forward. i guess what's going to have to happen is the justice department is going to have to, you know, give them immunity for testimony, and find out who is the cast of characters that are actually responsible not only r the implementation, but thehe approval of the process. are these only a few rogue agents, or is it a whole system

that was turned upside down ring the 2010, 2011 and now into the 2012-'13? neil: jeff, in your case you knew something was amiss here, and the company was lying and doing something deceitful. and i'm always trying to give the benefit of the doubt in some of these other scandals that maybe these whether they're rogue irs agents or groups following their orders, ty thought what they were doing was on the up and up, and no one connected the ethical dots to say this is wrong. what do you think of that? >> well, there's definitely an ethical disconnect here. i mean, i don't know what the culture in the irs is. i can tell youhat the culture was in the company i worked for, brown and willison, it was do most anything to prevent the outside world from understanding what the truth was. and that was part of the culture. neil: but did others know that truth, jeff? you, obviously, were aware of% it, but did they know that things were being manipulated? the company was lying,

misrepresenting itself and worse? >> oh, most certainly they knew it. and, i mean, it was controlled by lawyers. and the lawyers instructed the scientists how to write, they edited their papers, edited their conversations, their communications in meetings only to prevent anything from ever being discovered. and also at the same time scientists like myself were trained what to say outside the company versus what you could say inside the company. so there was a culture of keeping it inside and never letting the facts outside until it was reluctantly produced. neil: guys like you, jeff, in other words, when i see these kind of things pop up, the enron scandal comes to mind, sharon watkins said, well, there really weren't other whistleblowers. why is that the case? could we be waiting for that to be the case with the irs? >> i most certainly expected others to follow me. you have to realize, the only senior officer in the company

having many silos, there were many people who knew more than i did for 20 years, and they continued to perpetuate the fraud. in fact, there's a whole climate, an titude of what i call bystanderrism. you watch the wrongdoing, not disrupt what's going on. it wasn't very -- it's not very comfortable whenou go outside the box with the truth. and you have to be prepared for some hard times. i don't think everybody's willing to do that. neil: yeah. >> i tnk there are an exceptional few people that have that intestinal fortitude that they see they are becoming just as bad as those that were doing the harm. i mean, when i watched the seven ceos, particularly my boss in april of 1994, deliberately and consciously lie in front of congress, it just forces you to say am i the same person as he is? am i just as guilty as he is? and i think- neil: well, you just read my mind. because then i'm thinking if

you're an irs worker bee, an indian, and you're hearing your chief, district chief, bureau chief, whatever, say, no, we weren't targeting these groups, or this was not part of an orchestrated plot, would you, let's say hypothetically, say, no, that's bs? you did know, and we did know what was going on, are they out there? wh do you think? >> i believe there are good in every person. and i imagine there are some people that want to come forward with it. i think ty could be incentivized by the department of justice investigation. they're going to look to these people to sort of roll, and as they roll, they will give up the bigger fish up the line. neil: and that's the idea to exonerate them or shield them from any legal, you know, attacks themselves, right? >>by becoming a wness and getting immunity, they basically are shielded from any kind of critical -- neil: gotcha. >> -- remedy that the justice department has. somebody had to be approving this process. somebody had to know what they

were doing was not conforming to the law. and most certainly, it had to be -- somebody had to have the signals going off in their head this is immoral, this is wrong. now, part of it could be that people a are in different silos, and they don't know what's going on, and they're just given a specific task. somebody puts it all together and pulls it all together. neil: yeah. >> i don't know what the case is. i think we're seeing the tip of the iceberg. this has been going on since 2010. thers got to be some bodies there that are willing to come out now particularly given the level of scrutiny it's going to get. congressional, it's got the department of justice, it's got the media. i mean, it's ripe for somebody to come forward and say this is what i knew, this is what i was involved in, let me tell you what really was going on. neil: and you think that's going on right now behind the scenes; finding these people,getting, you know, protection to go ahead and talk? >> i think that could be very possible. i mean --

neil: interesting. >> most cerinly the people on the bottom that were actually doing it, the agents that were actually doing the illegal work must know now what they were doing was wrong. and i would think they have a od motivation or incentive to say, come on, i want to get out of this. i don't want to be locked up in jail, or i don't want to be fired or whatever the remedy is. they may come forward voluntarily. maybe they'll be incentivized to come forward with immunity. i don't know what's going to haen, but most certainly the onion's going to start being peeled back. neil: we'll watch very closely. jerey wagon, always good seeing you. thank you. >> are likewise. thank you. neil: the fox guarding the henhouse and sending all of us to the poor house. the irs story that'll have you with the spark miles card from capital one, bjorn earns unlimited rewas for his small business take theseags to room 12 please. [ garth ] bjors small busiss earns double miles on every purchase every day. produce delivery. [ bjorn ] just put it on my spark card.

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neil: and the health care hits just kp on coming. get this, those irs screenings of conservative groups? well, the woman in charge of things during that fiasco is running the health care division of the same fiasco. to monica, adam and jean. what do you make of this, a woman who was there when all of this was going on is now overseeing the unit that will implement a lot of thelth care changes er which the irs will have direct control. >> well, she shouldn't get too cozy in that seat,ecause a lot of heads are going to get chopped off over this. that's the most graceful thing i can say about her at this point. there's no w that you can even suggest this was low-level employees and this was people just ridiculing others for their, you know, own -- under their own devices. like, why would they want to create more work for themselves? this runs deep. to get rid of the ticks, you've got to get all the ticks, and you can't just shed one and think this is over. neil: gene marx, you know what's

coming your way in terms of the responsibilities of following all these new health care rules, regulations, fees, etc. most of which will be controlled and implemented by the irs. what do you feel and how do you feel about this? >> it's a terrifying thought, isn't it, neil? you have the irs right now that really can't even keep track of what its own employees are doing. now they have to audit the 34 million people walking around inunshired -- uninsured right now. if you're required to have health insurance next year and you don't do it, it's the irs's responsibility to find out. what's that l going to mean about hiring new auditors and increasing the budget? for a small business owner, it just seems like more chaos and reaucracy. neil neil adam? >> well, i suggest we not hyperventilate what's going on in this very real situation where people should be punished for wrongdoing if they committed wrongdoing or be too terrified about the i are, s -- irs.

people in the united states voluntarily pay their taxes and have done so for a couple hundred years. that's a good thing. we have to make the irs better. we'll do th by criticizing it, but ere's every reason to believe that these audits will lead to a better future with more people being insured -- neil: yeah, but not with this person. this is like putting me in charge of the ponderosa buffet. good luck getting at it. [laughter] >> well, neil, i think we need to be responsible about the ponderosa buffet, and maybe you'd be a good person to be in charge. neil: not really, buddy. >> versaw this department, then clearly -- neil: she shouldn't be overseeing this one. >> -- clearly should go. neil: that's all you were saying, monica, not the right person for this job. >> i think it's diminishing the gravity of all of this and, honestly, i'm more offended by this than adam, for sure. this is people in power taking put their faith in those people. this is no wore than priests molesting little boys. honestly, i don't think i'm being too dramatic --

[inaudible conversations] neil: there's a little extreme difference there, but i just ask this of my smalbusiness guy, gene marx. at the very least, do you think that we should g slow on giving the irs any added responsibilities, and by definition wouldn't that delay the rollout of the health care law itself? should we risk that to get this right? i mean, neil, look, the biggest issue that most small siness owners have had with the health care reform act is that it's being rolled out too% fast. why not take a little bit of time and make sure we get the system right? most of the irs -- don't get me wrong, there are plenty of smart people, but they're just trying to get their arms around the tax legislation. now they're being asked to do a whole bunch of new requirements that's going to take some training and education to do. if they don't know the right questis to ask, they don't know their job, it's going to impact us. that's a big thing for a lot of buness owners. neil: go ahead, adam. i would just say that's what the regulatory process is for. it's 2-year-old legislation, and

so we should take time enforcing the regulations and writing them well and getting public comment on them. that's all fine. i would just like to point out, neil, that we are predisposed to not like the tax man. i meaa, we don't like the meter maid either. nobody does. so that's fine. we should criticize the irs -- >> we should do more than criticizthe irs. >> nobody likes, nobody likes the people who come to us and say, hi, we're here to collect your taxes. neil: no, i mean, it depends if they're going to audit me right away. here's my thing with this whole predicament, monica, is that i think -- we had laws put in place after watergate to prevent this sort of thing, to use the irs as a bully to go after enemies. and, obviously, we shifted from that. they found ways around that. so we've built up laws and systems in place with this health care law, and if anything it's taught us with the irs is that there are ways around the system where it can be abused.

so do you want to risk giving the irs the responsibility to lock and load on a system that itself is flawed? >> i think it's taking it too far. i don't think we need to scrutinize all of this other legislation just because of what's happening at the irs. i think -- neil: how about just keeping them out of health care? >> we need to deal with what's happening in the irs, we need to deal with the corruption in the irs. i think it's separate from the issue of the health care legislation. what offends me is the woman who was on top when all of this stuff was going down, why is she not just put on the sidelines? why isn't she in a rubber room? why is she at the head of something that can create more chaos at this point? >> neil: all right. >> neil, i can speak to -- neil: go ahead, real quick. >>there's two pieces of mail i dread every year, my son's report card and my health insurance premium. [laughter] and the whole -- neil: my son's report card comes with my health insurance premium. [laughter] >> in my case, you need it as

well. but just t wle health care insurancindustry is relying on these 30-34 milon more people who are going to be in the market. it's not with all the coverages, you know,ho's going to pay the benefit of those extra premiums. a lot of business owners are really concerned about that, and we're letting the irs be the guys a who are going to have to audit ese people. with their track record, it's very much of an issue. neil: adam, final word. >> so far there's no evidence that there was any pitical interference in this. we haven't seen that. so i would say the watergate -- neil: oh, i think there was political interference. we don't know the extent -- >> just by virtue of f who was targeted shows there's pitical interference. >> it shows you the alleged biases of the people who allegedly did the scrutiny, right? but that doesn't -- neil: that's political interference. you and i might -- you're right. [inaudible conversations] neil: potato, poe at the toe. relax, we've got it covered. when the white house says it can

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we're making it. >> the ig has done an audit, it'sow my understanding, it's going to be recommending an investigation. and, you know, attorney general holder also announced a criminal investigation of what happened. between those investigations i

think we're going to be able to fire out exactly what happened. neil: former irs commissioner mark everson heard that one, and he really started getting worried, muse that the president and his attorney general were quite confident they could handle this probe on their own, thank you, no need for special comes or specialanything. commissioner, welcome. good to have you. why is that troubling to you? you don't thinkit's a case of the government or wing of the government sort of policing itself, or is it deeper than that? >> well, i'm not sure i actually said that, neil. but what i do think that what i have said was it's very serious for the service once you get any criminal inquiry from doj. that puts,h, a real dampening effect on the service. this is a horrible event for the irs. and i'm confident that the congress will get to the bottom of this. you've got whatever it is, three or four different committees looking at . it's just starting. and i do think they're going to get t it, through it with

justice. neil: so you don't feel that there ought to be a special committee or a special prosecutor, any of this kind of stuff that others have suggested going beyond just sort of like either justice inveigating itself or justice investigating the irs? >> no, not at this point. neil: okay, gotcha. >> now, if -- and i'm not speculating this is the case -- if you were you to find things g into treasury or the white house, of course, that that beca very different effort. prankly, what wee -- fankly, what we have heard so far, you have an operation in cincinnati that was deplore cial in what it was doing. neil: how do you know they're rogue? there might be some since natty agents who -- cincinnati agents who said we're going to look into these conservative groups and not give them tax-exempt status, but what if it's larger than that? >> well, we'll see.

they're going the find that out. i mean, to me, the ig report clearly documents that the, that office was acting on its own, and then when lois intervened -- which took way too long -- neil: right. >> everyone's question was why did it take so long once she engaged to get this cleaned up, that's one whole set of issues. and then that office, if i recall, they discarded her guidance and did something on their own. that's atrocious. that's b management. it should have been even-handed. neil, when i was at the service, we did a lot of work on political intervention with c3s in '04 and '06, and that was controversial. as soon as the issue was raised, i asked the aim ig, rustle george, to look at it. he said we could have done it better, don't t me wrong, but he clearly found there was no politicking. neil: i remember that. there was no concerted effort to go after just liberal groups.

here it's a much larger scale. >> right. neil: the last thing i'll leave you with is more a psychological or emotional-type question. at what point do agents, even their bosses, come to the realization, hey, we are targeting groups of a political persuasion, and this is not right? >> that's, that's what's so disturbing here. because even if there were four consvative groups for every fifth liberal group, if you will, in the c4s, they should have had a balaed approach here so that it would survive any scrutiny on the outside and it clearly wasn't the case. and management didn't respond promptly enough, and then you have the whole set of issues that are being addressed today at ways and means. was the conversation candid with the congress which makes this far more difficult to unravel. neil: got you. mark, i apologize for overstating your point of view. that's all right. neil: thank you very much for

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help supplement enzymes that are naturally in saliva. biotene helps moisten those areas that have become dry. those that are suffering can certainly benefit from biotene. neil: all right. a nerdy venture that seems scandalous, a market rally that maybe is scandalous, and an airline that seems to have had pangs of guilt andnow offering something that is not andalous. an endover the week -- end of thweek biz blitz. welcome, guys. first off, microsoft and samsung want to kick google glasses. they want in on those same dorky internet-seeing glasses i thought up til now only google dare dork. charles, there's got to be something to it. i always think the things look stupid, but maybe i'm missing something. >> think about this, how hard do people work for years to make the hearing aid look like invisible, and then people started putng those big cell ones in 'em anyway?

what was unattractive ten years ago is hip today. if i'm google, i'm not too worried about microsoft. maybe samsung may provide a greater thing, but right now it's too cool and expensive for me. keith is the leading edge guy on this stuff. [laughter] neil: well, keith is leading edge. there was supposed to be $1500 or more, oh, neil, they've got to get under $1,000. i sa well, they've got to get under $100. but these glasses, what's the draw? why is that the future? >> well, i don't know, i think they're new, they're innovative, they're giving people information ey wouldn't have otherwise -- neil: like what? let's see you're walking on a city street. are you just walking into light posts? >> you're getting information. according to the gu i'm talking to, you're getting information on which of your friends is in the neighborhood, which coffee shop is -- neil: oh, i thought it told you about a light post before you ran into 'em. >> casinos are already banning these things, you can't be on

the gambling loor. think about it, if you pair those thinged with implantable microchips which are coming down the line, this is not too far away from human and computer merging. neil: i can't see you get too far in a casino. >> you'llet some old-fashioned technology. neil: 're going to wrap those glasses around your face. [laughtee] anyway, maybe you don't have to fly commando after all. american bucking the industry fee for all by offering free earlyoarding for customers with limited carry-on luggage. keith, what do you make of this? a sign an airline can have a guilt complex? >> i fly an awful lot for what i do, and i'm glad to see this, but i think they ought to just get over it. people are going to take whatever they want on this airplane until they actually start charging fees that provide a disincentive to do that. this is going to, this is just more shade of the same. it's an effort to improve their on-time record, nothing more. neil: this is a tough issue for

charles payn this is about commercial travel. >> it doesn't apply to first class, so stop sweating it. [laughter] neil: what do you think of this? >> it reminds me a little bit, the whole industry, i don't know if you guys remember the old underdog cartoon. he would turn people upside down and shake every nickel out of thr pockets. that what they've become, riffraff, are you kidding me? neil: i'd love to see you on that airline. [laughter] into yeah. and that'd be -- 5. i think it helps with efficiency. anyone who thinks this has gone away, they're out of their minds. neil: so don't get spoiled. final issue, is the stock surge since all of these crises came to life the market's way of saying keep the crises coming? the more these scandals soar, the more the president's big spending issues are stymied. charles, do you buy that? >> in a word, hell yeah. actually, it's two words. laugh.

neil: you needhose glasses. >> i do. the president's anti-business agenda wl be mired in muck and slowed down dramatically, absolutely. midterm election.s us to the maybe the gop keeps the house, gets the senate. we like balanced government. we like gridlock particularly in this case because it will stop an agenda that's not too friendly to capitalism. neil: you know, i generally agree with charles on everything he says, a, because he can beat me up, he's so very smart. but normally i'd agree with that. here's my concern. we've got a lot of issues we've got to address now like getting spending under control. some sort of agreement on a simpler tax code. maybe that's wishful thinking on my part. this just delays if not negates that, and that is a worry. is this a sign gridlock would not be welcome? >> yeah, but you know what? this is the oldest game in the kick the can down the road. neil: yeah, well, we can't anymore. >> i don't know about that. they've been doing it for 40 years.

i would argue as long as bernanke's got access to the printing press, he's going to continue until he's green in the face. but the here to m is the markets like this because it keeps washington out of wall street's hair. ceos can go ahead and spend money because they're not worried about additional legislation screwing it up further than they've already been screwed up -- nnil: whoa, whoa, whoa. are you saying then that by no additional legislation, in other words, no additional attempts on the part of this administration for green initiatives and all that, you think these crises have stopped that? >> well, they're not going to stop it entirely inside the beltway. but you know what? ceos that i've talked to in the last 72 hours are all saying, great, let 'em have it. neil: i see. >> we've got enough uncertainty with what's on the plate. let's just dig through this now and actually begun to capitalize our -- begin to capitalize our expenditures. neil: understood. >> i'm just not sure washington's going to somehow stop kicking the can down the road. i'm not so sure we ultimately have to have a hard landing to

learn in theard way. it's unfortunate, but i believe that's the way it's going to happen. neil: all right, guys, i want to thank you both. have a great, safe weekend. by the way, you've got to chaales th weekend. oy. anyway, it gotugly on capitol hill today. >> youe arguing today that the irs is not corrupt. but the subtext of that is you're sayg, look, we're just incompetent. neil: i want you to meet the republican congressman at today's hearing. think it got ugly? [ male announcer ] in your lifetime, you will lose 3 sets of keys 4 cellhones 7 socks and 6 weeks of sleep but one thing you don't want to lose is any more teeth. if you wear a partial, you are almo twice as likely to lose your supporting teeth. new poligrip and polident for partials 'seal and protect' helps minimize stress, which may damage supporting teeth,

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that you misled this committee? >> that was a lot of questions, sir. >> it's one. how can we conclude you did not mislead this committee? >> i did not mislead the committee. >> regardless of whether democrats or republicans did something like this, the outrage should still be there, is that not correct? >> the outrage as to -- >> the abuse. >> yes. >> are our most expansive federal powers are given to our most intrusive agency. and then you add on top of that incompetence or whatever else we have, and it's a disaster. neil: man, oh, man, and to hear republican congressmen tell it, they're just warming up. the man who wants to get to the bottom of this mess joins us right now. congressman, did we get any answers at all tay? well, we got a mixed bag of responses from mr. miller regarding what h recalls and what he doesn't recall in this very important time period from january 2010 to present. he seemedo have some good memories on some issues and very

lackluster memory on other issues. so i think bottom line is our committee got a lotf information from which to build be on now our further inquiries and further investigation about not only how tax-exempt organizations were handled for 501c4 status or even the dissemination of taxpayer information to outside groups, whether that occurred as well and who has a result should be held accountable if or that. neil: do you suspect this goes way beyond conservative groups? the reason why i ask is a number of very prominent ceos and top conservatives, republicans and moderate republicans at that told me, neil, i was audited. hey, you were audited too? in other words, they're not groups. these are individuals. and i'm wondering, it might just be coincidence, but whether there might have been a larger systemic problem and targeting going on. >> well, that's what we need to find out. thpurpose of today's hearing

was just to set th table for the parameters around which we're going to continue our work on the ways and means committee. chairman camp has done a great job just to get everything in place so that the full committee as well as the subcommittee on oversight can continue to look into these individual issues that are out there and have a lot of credibility and for the answers that i heard from mr. miller were certainly not answered by what his commentary was today. neil: yeah. real quickly, sir, the one thing that caught my mind with some of the democratic questioners today, they kept mentioning a lot of these were bush appointees as the if they minimized the seriousness of what was going on today. we do know eugh that it was these conservative groups that were tarted, so whether they werebush appointees or millard fillmore appointees, does that really matter? >> no, i don't think it matters at all. the question is why employees in the irs both in cincinnati but also in washington, d.c. and other offices clearly violated

their obligations under current federal law and how they handle these applications and how perhaps the handle taxpayer information generally. and it's not, it's not really relevant as to who was appointed to whom. when you're in that position, it's what your legal obligation is and how that information is used and how you hndlehose applications.% and that's what we're going to continue to move the inquiry. neil: we're going to have a summer of hearings, aren't we? >> well, there's a lot of information that we want to go over and a lot information that's not been produced for our committee as of yet. and if you listen to the testimony by inspector general george, that office is going to continue to do a lot more investigation into these issues. so there's going to be a lot more hearings that are going to ultimately lead to the truth of what happened. neil: all right. congressman, thank you for taking the time. >> thanks for having me. neil: all right. well, here's a weird one for you. apple's ceo being dragged to capitol hill next week to explain to the folks who have no cash why he's sitting cautiously we went out and asked people a simple question:

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ne all right. what's that they say about no good deed goes unpunished? apple cautiously guards its loot to prepare for a rainy day, and the folks who have spent all of our loot, all of our futures want to know why he can't be like them and blow it all away. that is, basically, what apple's ceo tim cook is up against when he plays what i'mure will be a pinata anapitol hill next week. lawmakers are asking him to defend his $100 billion cash stash. why can't you blow it like us? adam, that's weird. that's all i'm saying, that's weird. [laughter] i think igot the gist of it. >> i don't know that they're asking him to defend anything so much as discuss and explain apple's tax policy. i mean, there's a perctly legitimate discussion to be had here about why it is, first of all, that apple doesn't repatriate its cash. tim cook has a very good answer for that. they would have to face high taxes to do it. but there's also this elaborate scheme that apple and other u.s.

companies very legally use to put their, to route their money through caribbean islands and luxembourg and ireland and reno, nevada, and the list -- neil: wait a minute, how do you get from luxembourg to reno, nevada? gene marx, what do you make of that? >> first of all, whatever schemes they're doing as long as it's legal, it legal. and it's very interesting they're bringing in tim cook because, you know, he runs apple which happens to be one of the most well known companies on the planet, so why not get a little press out of that as well. neil: good point. >> imagine someone saying to you this is the amount of money you have in your account, and the government says you have to spend it on this or that. that's what i've got a wife for. [laughter] neil: you just alienated a few viewers, but what the heck? monica, what i wonder with this is to what end is apple used, as -- >> guys, i've lost sound. neil: and what do you make of that, make an example to sort of

guilt these companies into not just sitting on that dough? >> i think this is just preposterous, to be honest with u. apple's not doing anything against the law, and they owe to their shareholders. that's who tim cook should be looking out for, and they're doing absolutely everything by the leof the law, and to even suggest that there's a level of ethics involved here, i think, just turns my stomach over. i don't think jesus has a position on a tax code. i don't think -- [inaudible] krishna has a position on the tax de. neil: you know, jesus loves -- neil: >> i completely disagree with you. >> the government needs a certain amount of money, and if the legislators need more than that, they should be very clear with the tax code. >> so, monica -- >> i you're creating loopholes, then don't get otraged when people use them. >> at the risk of, at the risk of suggesting a civics lesson to you, the congress makes laws. ey wouldike -- they have every right to change the tax law. and we can have a -- >> so change it! why are you grilling people --

in let me finish, please, about whether or not -- let me finish, please, about whether or not the tax law is correct and appropriate. so i even said and i agree that apple is llowing the tax law, and they're going to have a conversationbout whether or not we should change the tax la in other words, should it be legal -- neil: all right, fair enough. gene, here's what i like about this, and i'm not a fan of the congress scrutinizing anyone about fiscal propriety. but leaving aside that, i like the fact that the coolest company on earth that was always above getting picked apart is now getting a little bit picked apart. so that is an encouraging development, i just think for all the wrong reasons. what say you? >> you know, i can say o thing, um, i think making the attention on apple certainly puts attention on that issue. but i want to give credit, actually, to tim cook. he's playing it the right way. he's being summoned, and i bet he'll handle it -- neil: you can't not go, right? >> you can't ignore it, but at the same time look at the trouble microsoft got into, look

at the antitrust trouble google's in right now. you have to play tis game, and i give him credit for doing that. >> to gene's point, he could send his head of taxation, and he's going and taking sponsibility. completely agree. neil: apple had taxation? you wrote the book on it, so i guess they do. >> i assume there's someone who's in charge of tax picy, yes. neil: oh, all right. >> i don't think he'll be a pinata at all. neil: oh, i guarantee you, i'm going to replay that press conference or hearing -- it will be like a press conference. >> this is not market research. like, if you're telling me there isn't going to b grandstanding going on, i'll send you lunch. >> well, it's congress. come on. neil: whoa, whoa, whoa -- [inaudible conversations] guys, i want to thank you all. gene marx, good luck sleeping on the couch tonight. [laughter] >> you know i'm going to get in trouble for that, neil. neil: the way, stand in line. i've done the same thing. have a great weekend, everody. we're going to be monitoring all of theshearings and can all of

these sndals and all of these cross-current events. we're watching them all, each and every single one of them. it's you, it's your money, it's your life, it's your country. we are on it like no one's down the morning" starts now on fox business giving you the power to prosper. >> ladies and gentlemen, t 24 annual imus radio on. don: back when i started doing this 24 years ago, connell was 11 years old. to give you a perspective. so today we raise money for the imus cattle ranchids with cancer and we begin our 15 years this summer, the ranch founded in 1998 and is devoted pri