liwiehl, hank sheinkopf, thank you all for being here. good night from new york. neil: it is time to tell our thoughts. welcome, i am neil cavuto. here's how bad the scandalous are getting. eric holder is investing himself. he is revealing how his justice department went about targeting ap and fox news reporters even though we now know it was eric holder himse okay targeting our collie, james rsen.

too much time has been wasted on stories that just don't add up with whistleblowers thatre itching to talk. reportedly they are lining up. i asked a few questions.

if we are talking about the window,. makes sense to have people comingn, only nterested i getting through what happens in conducting them with a full and fast and impartial investigation neil: we have talked to them on and off the record. it seems like ken sarr went on a witchhunt, exploring things that went way beyond and we

political witchhunt. >> when you say giving me independt counsel, you have the ability to do your own investigation. now you're giving up power the power and you have to sit back and wait for the result but i'm going too my investigation. a special prosecutor is doing his or her in thing. the irs and the justice department. many are gettingqually torque.about health and human services paper public health care law which could

be multiple prosutor eds. would you see that ever happening? >> you would see that this starts with a club of documents. >> i could not even imagine mechanically. they fear that initially going after the irs, and what happened, it will naturally slip into the justice deprtment. it distil over with and unbending hit.

>> it would make sense to bring in one independent counsel to do one job at one time. if you reallyre not interested in the truth, but you are only interested in pointing fingers and sayin you are the right and the wrong, everyone decides in the sandbox. you feel good about the process anknow that it it's really about the truth and not aboutt3 politics. neil: you have multiple answers, but you do it so brilliantly.

neil: back to ben stein. who knew what and whe. let's talk about thiagain. i'm sure that you have been peppered by questions by so many. i will be the latest to chat about thisith you. what do you think? >> it is like watergate, very much. we have a president that his is caught with his pants down, doing all kinds of bad things in this adminnstration. there is fox and a few internet sites, either way,,it doesn't matter. its not going to cost him his job, he's not going to have to resign. neil: do think that that will

stay? >> oh, absolutely. unless they turn u investigatn. they will lay down the laws for obama. neil: this is what happens in government. you take big leages. he getsto gigantic. >> this is not that case. in this case, we kew that the ciinnati office was targeting political groups done a lot it

is known in dodd-frank in the white house. e irs is also targeting antiabortion rights. and they are also pestering and harassing them and that is a big part of the story. you are never going to see that in "the new york tmes." never, never, never. neil: one thing i always wonder is after watergate. those who never again get to the abuses, we are avenging on enemies. >> okay. neil: i'm thing that happen again. >> of course it will happen

again. of course it will happen. thgovernment is made up of very ordinary people with all the ordinary emotions that human beings have. many of the emotio are revenge. neil: barack obama doess't have to say or do anything. that in and of itself is an inevitability. you think you're doing the president's bidding without them telling you to. for all we know, they are very close and these are smart enough things to figure out. we don't know what he is telling

him. mr. eric holder is a hyper partisan guy. i am wondering as we had he secretary of the treasury, we shall se. neil: it ialways gd to have you, my friend. >> it is an honor, sir. neil: is the government giving a reason why it happened? are buaucrats finallout of control? even some top democrats are gearing up. maybyou should start learning about that. then how abercrombie and fitch is pushing for the same bottom.

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neil: the scandals are stacking up like trains on an airport runway. we have david have lunch on this growing prblem. as well as katie pavlich. td, what you think of this? >> are longtime you have big government proponents saying that the government works for the people. we are seeing with scandals in government ways that the government is expensive and most importantly, it means that big government is you cn't hold anyone accountable for bad decisions made in government. there is no reason why we need blted federal government programs.

>> now that we have this information we learned about, the amount of $50,000, i mean, is is part of big government. is is really about an administration that not being transparent. a promise that they would be the most transparent administration in histo. neil: let's say the administration didn't have any direct ties to thehite house. but this was some activity on the part of overzealousagents, maybe beyond the office involved. but that it is here, the dimensions speak to how big the irs s gotten and now the irs is taking control of enforcing the health care law. it shows it has gotten out of control. and that is the underlying problem. >> well, i do not agre with the premise. we do not have a growing problem, but we have a growing problem. it is too big, it is too complicated. it becomes not a logical conversation about what we do

about it. the people against government want to get rid of it. that is not a particular good solution. >> before the irs agents take control of health care, let's get this under control. >> my only point is that this isn't new, there are not scandals piling up. >> you have the justice department,. >> they are behaving badly, they

should speak to those in the firr. neil: katie, there is a multiple feeling going on here. >> yes, this is absolutely having to with big government and i want to push back that we want to get rid of government. the fact is they government does not work. we have seen this with the irs. we have seen this with obamacare. we have seent with medicare, medicaid, every civil sector in the government. education. the fact is that big government is bad government. >> you are not describing government. >> you are not describing government, yes, i am. it is a new problem. >> okay, let's bring our net guest in.

we should slow down and get to the bottom of this. there will be subpoena powers that will occur if you report the facts. especially they don't report having us. you thinkthat big government is the perfect example and it is to blame for everything. we have a grievous problem. most of it is local government.

>> i am sick of democrats saying th it doesn't really matter. it doesn't matter. the irs is using all the power they have the fact is that the irs h a very powerful agency in the federal government. and it was specifically targeting groups for polical purposes. and now the administration is saying i have to tell you that

this is how we feel. but having said all that, i think he gets back to the basic notion it is not my contract. but i think that that is built into a l of this. @% i think that the bigger government gets a bigger institution and they are riiht for this. it is a very big drop in the bucket. >> i thought that was a very effeive video. neil: the one guy looked very much like this. >> it goes with a larger problem. this includes not living long

and not prospering. neil: okay, we will have you ba in a little bit. would you pay twice as much to gi this guy what he is demanding? your conscience or you're thank you orville and wilbur... ...amelia... neil and buzz: for teaching us that you can't create the future... bylinging to the past. and with that: you're history. delta is looking beyond. 80 thousand of us investing billions... in everything from the best experiences below... to the finest comforts above. we're not simply saluting history... we're making it. at bny mellon, our business is investments. managing them, moving them, making them work. we oversee 20% of the world's financial assets. and that gives us scale and insight no one else has.

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neil: young young and restss and apparently hungry. very hungry. to hear mcdonald's tell us that millennial eat. those 19 years old to 34 years old really like to eat fast food. but they mix their cravings for social justice. e ofravings for social justice. if you think the you take advantage of your workers, they won't take advantage of your stores if you're are a wal-mart or a restaurant.restaant.

or if you are a ronald mcdonald. mcdonald's is trying to get ahead of that. they see past food workers getting higher wages. we thought that we would ask them. anyway, what do you think of that, michelle? that your generation would sooner pay a lot more for a burger then to go to a placepla that doesn't pay its workersorks enough? >> well, when i ee that, it just makes me shake my head. to see mcdonald's employees protesting at a state -- shareholders meeting, demanding more money, they get paid $8.20 per hour and they want $15 perd hour. we have 75% unemployment. so many people are struggling to get a job. many are knee-deep in student loans and can't find a job. i think if you have a job you are to be grateful that you have a job in this economy. lot of te

and are somehow taken advantage of in that it's not fair or right. you say that they can discern some differences? >> well, i think so. i think when you have is, that, that is what drives people to your store. you leave these protests, minimum wage, whatever they are protesting about, that is not social justice. me and us and consumers. a lot of folks will pay a little bit more, they think. a little bit more to make sure

that workers are treated well. i think that most people are not in a livable wage. these numbers are at an all-time low. young millennialist don't like unions eithe the reason why did they realize that they may nd up like the hostess bakery unit, whicnded up leaving all of their members unemployed at. >> the dirty little secret if you've never eaten there, that right? [laughter] neil: i like the plague along. michelle, it is so great to see you. have a great weekend. well, we already know. is this china's way of going to is this china's way of going to war without ever all stations come over to mission a for a final go. this is for real this time.

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vo: ta friend under water is end usomething completely different. i met a turtle friend today so, you don't get that very often. it seemed like it was more than happy to have us in his home. so beautiful. av more travel. more options. mo personal. whatever you're looking for expedia has more ways to help you find yours. ♪ neil: hacking our coputers to get our deepest military screets, blatantly stealing apple ptent to capitalize on top technology secrets, and doing this while funding our floating debt, which is hardly a secret. connect them. is it chna's way of winning a war whout launchin a single missile? we thought of china back ward. to the etired general who says we have it wrorng. china's looking at chilling

version of warfare going forward. it is interesting, general, nay they have won so much without so much as one physical altercion. >> yeah, you know, it goes to the great chinese military theorists sun su whose principle of war is to winby not fighting. the chinese have been disciples of the art of war for 3,000 years. it not new, it's just done with computers rather than their traditional forms of espionage. look, the chinese want two things. number one, they want military secrets, and number two, they want intellectual property they can use to gain economic advantage and to gain weapons building advantage without having to invest i technology. as far as chinese are concerned, this makes perfectceps. they know they will not go to war in the united states over an island in the south china sea, but in away, a least to the

chinese mind set, they really already are at war with us. neil: they discovered as well that money talks. we, as a coutry in their debt, we're always op defense. nevernipped the fact that guys like you they need us as much, if not more than we need them. we buy their junk as it is. we are always on defense. they know that. they have our number; right? >> what's interesting is i was in china a few years ago, and one of the things they found interesting was the mehod reagan used to take down the soviet union, and the pla's senior leadership sd we are so fascinated with the geni of the american people in their ability to defeat the soviet union deflecting spending and beating them at their own game, military technolo, and we think that's fainating, and what you see, what, now, ten years on?

it's a physical manifestation of thoughts they had since the beginning of the 1990s, neil. neil: general, you're far more well adversed in military history than i'll be. usually, you come to blows. when there's a change in power, there's a military shall feel or altercation or war. i just cannot imagine this country going quietly into the night or then a new power emergig, and we just sort of wimply fall by the side, but could it be that way? >> well, you know, nuclear weapons changed everything. neil: true. >> it led th world into a new era where you defeat the united states one of two ways, terrorism, and you can use war in the shadows, you can use economic warfare, soft warfare, defeat your opponents by forcing him to spend himself or steling a seret and beating him at his own technological game, but both

of theseare done bloodlessly. when they got uclear weapons, big scale warfare s off the table, but that does not mean our confrontation with china is any easier in the future, neil. neil: amazing, general, thank you. >> thank you, neil. il: meanwhile, j-lo, please, say it ain't so. you are stunning, and you don't have to say a thing, but did you hear about the ceo of abercromb abercrombie and fitch? you will never shop at that store again. again. thank you orville and wilbur... ...amelia... neil and buzz: for tehing us that you can't crte the future... by clinging to the past. and with that: you're history.

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neil: abercrombie be serious,

the guy whose stores are nope for chiz -- chic led models saying larger people shouldn't shop there, and shopperers of all sizes saying, you know where you can go? he overred a semiapologizes, revenue down, outlooks work. should he be blitz out on his ass? >> i understand he's trying to defend the brand, putting a size 12 brand in the mouth. it's one thing to target specific customers, but another to exclude them. >> you know, really the mistake made was sayi what she was thinking and pay traps of the store are thinking he just put to words what a lot of folks think. u don't look like the models, then you don't go in there. >> neil, yeah, but i mean, you proved it's possible to be obese andsuccessful -- neil: i'm not obese, right now, i'm angry, young man, but

continue the trin of thought. >> ab has a brand. we want to look like the models in the magazines and whatnot, but they have to be notjust cool, but approachable. most people are heavier than the 70-pound waist in the catalog and alienate customers, i think, is ire representable damming to the brand. neil: stating the obvious, i mean, supposed to be hip and cool and everybody aspired to that, but what they did is just hurt the bran by appearing like the elitist ?oots they are, and even among the core audience; right? >> well, i think so. you know, what's ironic to me, is, yes, we have problem with chronic obesity in the country, adjusting insurance mortality tables to airline seats. there was a missed opportunity here. he could have said, let's take it and help america get healthy to do this together. i don't know h to put he spin

on it, i'm not a pr expert, but he didn't get council on this. neil: he did not. >>showing up in the stock. neil: indeed. >> roadway tailers doingwell, but his stock in the late 1990s. neil: you two a thin, and who is the idiot who came up with "morbidly obese," anyway, issue two, a retail ceo who gets it and wants to get t the bottom of it. sear's new boss says stop blaming the economy for poor sales, but to ook in the mirror, work your butts off, and turn the sales around. >> that is taking speedometer -- responsibility for one's action. a lot of the political leader neil, the ceo of sears gets it, not just talking about taking responsbility, but putting money where his mouth is owning the majority share of the company's share. he's putting n just the reputation on the lie, but the money as well. that's called taking responsibility. neil: keith, it's not moving the

needle yet for the store, but maybe that attitude will? >> well, i hope so. you know, i would have liked the statement better if he said the buck starts with me so lets lead by example, but, you know, that's neither here nor there. they have problems with the re estate. i think the stock price reflects that. in this economy, i'm not sure -- i have lips today -- i don't know he'll get out of this. neil: do you think sears, the jcpenney problem, losing adentty, and workers, in general, many of them bitch and complain, but maybe that's th problem? people don't reate or understand maybe it's the tools, is it consumer products -- >> well, yeah. how do you take a company that's very old and has no identity, being everything to everybody for solong. it's not ma and pa kettle on the rm. this is the internet age everything available to

everybody 4/7. >> we were worred they would serve mr. ed on our plates. be more worry theyseek rubs alcohol in the drinks. apparently, that w the case at some restaurants inclding a tgif's that reportedly swapped out scotch with rubbing alcohol. you have to be plowe not to notice that. what do you think of it >> >> well, i'm the most staunch defender of business, but what is this? watering down the wine, i mean this is fraud. when companies, they do the brand, neil. i'm not going to sing that but the audience knows it, and it is fraud, and,you know, it really not only hurts people in terms of the pocketbooks, but causes a great health risk as well, they get one drink, but it's dish water. terrible example and ruins reputation of all businemen when folks enga in this. neil: celt, first of all, it's

not as if rubbing alcohol is similar to scotch. it's not like -- not quie; right? >> right! neil: how do you feel about this? this is really defeat on a criminal scale here. >> not just deceit, but fraud, criminal activity, negligence, medical liability, but his speaks toe, are things really so bad in small business america or even middle business america that they are willing to sell their ethics down the oad and do this voluntari? i mean, i have to question the management and ownership here. the fact they clam ey didn't know it was goingon when margi showed it, they accunt for every bottle and every ounce of alcohol in a restaurant like that. stunned this is just coming to light. neil: what happened is as soon as we get word, the horse met thing, ad the meatballs are hor meat, nd i just though they sold purpose --

furniture, but they have other problems that crop up; right? >> itthe deceit. however much money bars think they saved in serving bad liquor instead of the good stuff, they more than pissed that away. that's not going to be replaced. lying is not just bad morally, but bad business. thiss an example. neil: we have half price drinks with rubbing alcohol. yoknow. >> exactly. you'll be cleaner when you finish. neil: brilliant line. dpies, thank you very much. meanwhile, reuniting. hear about this? well, not these guys. these guys. who wins? with thepark cash card from capital one... boris earns unlimited rewards for his small business. can i get the smith cocontrac, ease? thank you. that's three new paper shredders. [ boris ] put 'em on mspark card. [ garth ] boris' small business earns 2% cash back on every pchase every day.

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neil: lost weight, and now gaining clout. with democrats, the state of new jersey, 61% of whom like republican governor christie. with president obama visiting him again ontuesday to sor of take a post-sandy checcup, watch what they say could push governor christie into big re-election territory in a blue state, and aybe all the way to the white house. you know it's interesting, bob, rather than distance himself from the president, the governor has consistently embraced the president. it might alienate conservatives within the pear, but he doesn't seem to care. what's this all about? >> right. no, i think that's right. this is kind of a little of payback by the president because when the president was up for re-election, christie and obama worked close on sandy relief, and now christie is up, and he's a big favorite to win re-election, and now obama is coming back up to see h. i do think it helps christie

big-time in the short term, and in the long trm, republicans have to expand the map. they are hungry for a win, and, sure, this is going to upset the base. it upset the base last year: christie handles questions deafly, and he thinks about the presidency, maybe it's not 20 # 16, could be, maybe 202, it's on the mind. neil: he argued that, you know, focused on new jersey, the reason he didn't run for president, last go around, he was not ready for that, and it's all about new jersey, new jersey. i'm thinking that if he gets reelected by anything approaching the margin, some of the polls indicate, that would be the digest victory for any governor in new jersey in history, let alon a republican in a very, very blue state. he would almost be impressing uponrepublicans who might not like him, lookkwhat i just did; right? >> yeah, that's right. that i can appeal to democrat

independents something that mitt romney and mccain struggling with against barack obama, and i think that the republcan eleors going through the evolution of figuring out where are we going, the bottom line is they wantto win in 2016. they want to beat hillary clinton. who beats her in 2016? republicans think christie could beat her. kneel bob, you're the first to educate me on the pimaries, the one that had romney because he ran to the right, ran back to the mddle, always in between and that's going to be a difficult process for someone like christie. what do you think of that? c-span: . -- >> there is. there's going to be problems if he runs. the iowa caucus is dfficult because a lot of the bases there, conservatives there, but i think people vote more on personality than policies, and if christie can deal with his weaknesses, and i remember years

back, people aid you like collctive bargaining, and he aggressively said, look, i le it, love to get into the union and beat them at the table. it was good argument to a supposed weakness, and christie's good at that. that's a skill that mitt romney really did not show a lot onthe campaign trail. neil: he is personally appealing, might trump whatever political dierences people have. he's his own guy. we'll see how that goes. >> likability so important, neil. neil: i built a career on it, bob. you're right, hve a good weekend, thank you very much. >> anks, neil. neil: what's the diference between lerner and a zombie? nothing, nothing at all, i am dead serious. ♪ thank you orville and wilbur... ..melia... neil a buzz: for teaching us that you can't create the future... by clinging to the past. and with that: you're history. instead of looking behind... delta is looking beyond.

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neil: now you know, all the zombies, every single one of the zombies, they are government workers. the undead forever sucking off the alive and not so well.

lerner stepped down, but with full pay at the irs. i guess she's doing so as investigating all her government shenanigans targeting conservative gups, but what does it take to terminate, to fire, to get rid of anyone in the government? fcc guys too busy watching porn to chase bad guysstealing millions, bureaucrats in government agencies made up talking points on benghazi get to bottom of what happened in benghazi, no one fired. see a pattern here that's over the top? that's what we have on whether any of this is remotely fair. katie? >> well, i'm laughing at the true analogies about zombies and porn, but that's the government and the way it runs, and the fact is, this week with lerner, we learned that you can't fire government employees, and nt only is she at the top of the pay scale within the government, but she also is an attorney, has

a protection of a union behind her, and we both know, and everyone in the paneknows, that if she did this in the private sector, she would have been gone five days ago, and the government probably would have launched a probe to investigate her for discrimination in the private sector, but apparently that doesn't go on inside the government. neil: there is something called due process and i'll get into it here, we got, you know, we do have a system in place to not, you know, throw someone out on the butt if they have not been implicated. having said that, though, there's many examples in the private sector where something happens under your watch, ignorance sa oor defense, and you're out, period. >> you're right, and, you know, the govement should be more like businesses. many states are right-to-work states meani the employer and employee can leave the employment at any tim, and we should see that in the government, neil, and, you kno, the fact it happened under her

watch, nothing happened to er, refused to testify, it's very concerning. neil: adam, what do you think of this, though, that sometimes we do have to makean example, do we not? if no one isleaving and no one has been so much as reprinded, it begs to question you don't want to heave out soeone, and that breeds its own ill-will, doesn't it? >> sure. when they do something wrong, they should be fired. if they break the law, they should be prosecuted. we agre if we want to have a policy conversation and compare government and the corporate world which is extremely difficult and, no, we don't wat the government to run like a corporation in every instaps, but this comes down to an issue of level. i mean, people get fired in the government, or, you know, leave quickly under embarrassing situation i think the general mcchrystal, general petraeus, think of various cabinet members over the years who stepped over the line and got fired.

the question is do wewant to fire a senior level bureaucrat or want to ridicule a senior level state dpament person who may or may not have done anything wrong just because we're all upset abou it, and i think theshort answer i, n, and the same should betrue, by the way -- neil: i disagree, adam. i think the short answer is yes. i'm not saying it's the top guy at any of the agencies, but more eads should roll under their respective watches tat tese things happens, and they might not be responsible, but when the best excuse is didn't know what the hell was going on, well, that warrants, i'm sorry, you're history. >> well, and the fact is we've seen that lerner signed off on not allowing these tea arty groups applying fo tax exempt status to get that. neil: to be fair, the letters with the signature do not mean she was targeting the groups, but it was denied p on the phone: doesn't mean she didn't know about it, and the argument is out the window, the idea s

knew these grups were applying for the tax exempt status saying she didn't know, that cretes an often times in the corporate world we hear the ceo higher ups created a culture of whatever. inside theirs, they ceated a culture of intimidation and targeting of the groups. lerner did nothing to stop it. didn't show any remorse. neil: she should o? >> absolutely. neil: i don't want you as my boss. i want adam with my boss because i would get awa with muer with adam. >> yes, you would. neil: i guess where we get at with this is thats is tough in government, the example east not withstanding that adam raised, but it is tougher in government to see these guys go than it is in the corporate world. now there might be something to be said of that, due proess, all of the above, but i think it just makes those who think a scandal is brewing think more scandalously. >> well, two points hee, neil. first, i think many of the exmples adam mentioned, tthey were asked to resign and

resigned. i don't think they were fired. point two is that the irs because of a law that passed in the late 1990s is able to fire employees and get out of theupon agreements, if they violate what they call the ten deadly sins, and the inspector general, the irs on the hill this week saying it could have happened here. they -- even when they have the authority to fire people, to oor knowledge, they have not et. >> uh-huh. >> so i think your first point is a really intresting one getting to the difference between a political government official and a career government official, and it's a good thing for our country that we have a professional bureaucracy, and nonow, before you jump over me, they are not perfect. i mn, they are deeply flawed, as we all are, but you have a bureaucracy that is protected from political whims. the reason wy political people are not fired, the reason they resign, is that everybody understands that the president always has their resignation letter on his deek so to speak

saying, guess what, i'm accepting your resignation, thank you as very much. at's calledded being firdded. we want the political people to be fired quickly. neil: i'm beginning to extend on that. >> buick roar sighs are protected? neil: when reagan threatened to fire the air traffic controllers at the time threatening to strike, he said, well, you can't do that, you're vital personnel. it says here you cannot go out on strike. they still threatened he threatened back saying, you do it, we'll fire you. they did. he fired them. there waswarnings. mr. president, there's a possibility there could be a lot of planes and passengers dying. he didn't care. none of that happened. they were fired, life went on. there was a consequence for an action that they knew there shouould be a consequence for i. >> that's how it should be. the culture in government, whether it's at a citylevel or in th washington, d.c. level i that you move up, and you screw up. as you screw up, you move up.

it doesn't matter what responsibilities you have long as youplead ignorance saying it wasnot your fault and point to another guy. you will not be fired. in the instance o us protecting bureaucracies from the poliical whims, the irs case was completely political. the entire targeting of the groups as based on politics so to say they are prtected somehow, -- >> no, no. >> the political whims, not true, and talk about firing employees, let's talk about the fact that hussein, the guy who shot up fort hood is still pulling a government paycheck. even though he killed americans on their ases. neil: adam? >> on the political topic, you're chging the subject. if they, you know, play politics and broke -- >> they did. neil: okay, you would fire them as well. in this case, it was blatant, clear, unadulterated, fire. >> investigate it, find facts as so as pock, and get rid of people.

>> it's just a matter of when among you guys, just ow quickly you act. >> and at what level. >> we agree more than you think. neil: thank you, all. that'll do it will be slightly down. "money" is up next. >> i am denis neil. here is what is my niece and i will i am pulled the plug on u.s. power grid? that an escalation in cyber attacks you have to do this but as transcanada berndt surtout billion dollars for thing? that is a budget spent on the keystone xl pipeline a the president sll sits on his han and the president of transcanada joins us to push o of the pipine and who made money today? proctor and gamble replaced the ceo. keep watching to find out. even when they say it is not