you act. >> and at what level. we agree more than you think. neil: thank you, all. that'll do ♪ lou: hello, everybody, and than you for being with us. these people are swearing to tell the truth in fro of the house oversight committee, although not many americans are expected to believe them, and this woman, lerner, the woman a the center of the ira scandal did the unthinkable for a supposedly public servants. >> i have be advised by my counsel to assert my constitutional right not to testify or answ questions related to the subject matter o this hearing. lou: lerner took the fth and refuse to answer questions afte plding her case for a series of denials and deflections abou the lawfulness of her actions.

do you believe her when she say she is innocent? >> i have not done anything wrong. i haveot broken any laws. i hav not violated any irs rules or regulations, and they have not provided false information to this or any othe congressional committee. some people will listen that i have done something wrong. i have not. lou: congressmen goudy made it clear that he does not believe her until she is subject hersel to cross-examination by the committee. and the congressman introduced and electric moment into those proceedings when he said that b telling her side of the stories she had given a perfect the man writes. here he is. >> mr. cummings is shot to $5 run this by the court room. he just testified and waved her fifth amendment right to privilege. you will get to tell your side of the story in the not be subjected to cross-examination.

lou: the congressman will joi us in moments of talk about the latest in the obama irs scandal. also, among our guests, the man who led opposition to the gang of eight immigration bill, senator jeff sessions, and we will be talking about the political impact of all of the white house scandals, former senator stt brown. but joining us now, member of the house oversight committee, rmer federal prosecutor. you heard his view of the fact that lerner forfeited her right under the fifth amendment when she played her innocence before the committee. and that is now a subject to be determined. it is great to have you back with this. >> thank you. lou:t is your firm view that she developed which she said suez and the sense, the assertions that she did not

break the law violated any regulations. what do you think the automobile ? well, if they apply u.s. versus brown which is the supreme court case on waving your fifth amendment privilege against incrimination, you cannot have it both ways. you cannot he to sale of the things that are exculpatory about you whout having to withstand cross-examination. i think the chairman is going over all of h legal remedies tonight. one of which includes -- becaus he did not adjourn, he reid says , bring her back tomorrow. if she votes tomorrow, agai, as you pointed out, her opening statement, she made a soliloquy about how innocents she was and specifically says she would never let to congress. well, you don't get to just say that withoutaving to answer a few questions about it. if she evokes torrow then the chairman and house will have to decide whether or not to hold

her in contempt. immunity is something that we were taught to play in court, but i don't think that will be contemplated, nor should it be. lou: th president of citizens united served on thetand of the house oversight committee. he said that the straightforwar approach here is the decision must be made by a full load of the house as to whether or not she is a contempt. >> your reaction? lou: at least three different forms of contents, and i want t challenge his analysis. there are two other forms. you can never make a witne talk. you can give them consequences for not talking, butyou c never make this person talk.

the other alternative, of course , is to do it --? mr. sherman. refer this for a criminal investigatio the u.s. attorney and others have access to tools that the congressman don't and that is sometimes a good way to it do that as well. lou: former irs commissioner douglas chairman, acquaintance now, your colleagu says he visited the white house. visit the white house 118 times in 2010 and 2011. i mean, that is standing in and of itself. by itself us suppose it mea nothing, but it suggests a cluster relationship but the white house and in the irs commissioner i ever heard, acting or otherwise. >> jimmy jordan did a fantastic job researching that. at the white house more than some of the employees who work at the white house. of course very poor on things h

is not want to talk about and splendid on issues he does want to engage john. he cannot remember what they talk to and whether or not it was targeting the conservative groups or implementation of the affordable care act. he did not make a very compelling witness in my judgment. lou: the committee along with the rest of the house, the focu now be -- i know that there has been a tptation. theris an effort on the part of the administration, the democrats to conflate and numbe of issues, the ambiguity. that sort of thing. tax cut issues. even the chairman of the ways and means wants to talk about reforming the tax cut. with the american people need here is a vast set of answers t really troubling questions in the end to the contact that you committee is examining.

will we see that kind of focused ? >> i hope so. one of my colleagues on the other side of the i'll mention the special prosecutor. that was a democrat. i think -- i saw level -- i kno what to say about partisanship, t equal opportunity, outrage that does not exist on most issues. yo also heard me ask, can you name a single person who made the decision to target the chairman? here we are years after the decision and there are no names. lou: but -- >> if i were one of your viewer i would be asking every member of congress for this started, where it is insidious report idea originated. and until we can answer that then we have not done our jobs as members of congress. lou: so far so good. i keepsking. my success rate is not much higher than that. i know that the congressman wil change of tt. we thank you for being with us.

>> thank you and have a good night. lou: you, too. coming up, a credibility crisis for the obama lhthouse. the administration accused of abusing the trust of the american people. can ericans get the trh out of this administration? former senator scott brown on exactly that question next.

♪ lou: former senator scott brown says the obama administration has abused the trust of the american people in connection with theirs scandal. joining me now to discuss the political impact of all of thes scandals that are emerging and plaguing this administrationis former senator brrwn, now a fox

news contributor. great to have you with us. and the more that we listen to what this administration says the more conscous we year. >> when does that line gets drawn and when did they cross that line and i will tell you what, the rate of free speech, the right of the press to do their jobs as a check and balance that is needed in government. other than that sometimes there is that check and balance. the getting closer. i say it before and again. what happened with parasites have to go.

y to reestablish that just of the american people. the justice department and holder ould have been fired a long time ago. very few people in congress tha have any faith in his authority. fast and furious, trying to hav ksm tried in new york city, we are hearing on an on and on. when does it stop? lou: the attorney-general turning to the justice department scandal testified before congress saying that he could not imagine such a thing as by on the press when precisely this attorney general is doing precisely what he was nine. >> if he did he should be fired in defeated not nobody should b fired. all the people work for him, an he works for the president. it has been a clear and convincing, almost a bullying

and chilling effect on entities individual citizens, news gathering agencies, individuals and it is wrong. it is not what o country is all about. as i said, he should have been fired a long time ago. it is unacceptable. lou: the justice department scandal the silence was deafening from the floor of the state's when they should have been joined in this administration and bring powerful and critical judgments to bear against you. now we find that our colleagues had been surveiled. in the case of james rose, someone in the justice department named him as a criminal co-conspirator waste i

-- this personnot to be in jail for ing, in my opinion, right now. what is your reaction? this is worsening by the week. plexuses america, correct? we do liven america. listen. i am dumbfounded as to how people a sell in their jobs. take a wide swa the ap and have this blanket nquiry preparation, if it was a more specific instance and ther was a real nationalecurity risk would say, okay, that is different, that is not the case. to label a journalist as a co-conspirator is very serious. that needs to obviously be held accountable. i am shocked that every ne agency whether it is conservative, and urged a more liberal is not going after the justice department of filing the opprobrium lsuits to make sure that this and other things like

this never happen again. lou: this administration is quickly making it clear, are they not, that there is a year to assail the first amendment a th are the second. ople thought there would be limits and there aear to be none. your thoughtsas we wrap up? >> very simple. we, as american citizens, have to look out for our rights and interest. now we have an executive branch and others who worked for the executive branch shirking their authority and taking it atep too far, need to stand up as americans and pushed back because that comes to the media individual cizens, the file lawsuits, pushed back by gettin these people out of office and demanding redress and accountability. full, open, and become an transparent investigation into each and every one of these matters. lou: thank you very much. >> thank you. lou: the irs abused its public

trust. the president of citizens unite talks out about clear governmen overreach. thank you orville and wilbur... ...amelia... neil and buzz: for teaching us that you can't create the future... by clinging to the past. and with that: you're history. instead of looking behind... delta is looking beyond. 80 thousand of us investing billions... in everythinfrom the best experiences below... to the fest comforts above. we're not simply saluting history... we're making it.

lou: our next guest ys president obama in ess a issued marching orders to democrats in his adminisation by attacking the supreme court decision non-citizens united in his 201state of the union address. joining us tonight is the president of citizens united. it is great to have you with us. when you say, in essence, what do you mean? >> well, first of all, thank yo for having me. this is ssch an outraged of wha is going on in washington. the american ople are upset abt it. first of all, the president the united states sets e tone for the federal government. and wn the united states presidents in his state of the

union address denounces the unit states supreme court and our decision which really was a first amendment case first, tha is what it did. it allowed more people to participate in the process. what they did was, they wanted the irs and the sec to come dow on 501c4. so that the president really se the stage and then within wee a list of left wing people sent a letter to the irs demanding at they do just that, really look closely at all the different conservative groups. the irs is out there doing things that the powers that be don't want them to be. that is what the american peopl have to focus on. it is not about incompetence. lou: it is interesting. the democrats in particular.

the president's administration, suddenly tking about the ambiguity of the law. 501(c)4, the necessity to deal with a tax cut. this is subterfuge. classic pr defense. >> us with their want to do. we will talk but the need to abolish 501c force. values a little romney manual. bus lot of leather cresses cutaways. let's focus on abolishing the irs and rlaci it with a fair tax or a flat tax. and the american people will be better off without 97,000 irs agents. they could be used on the border .

u: i think we can all agree the internal revenue service ha to have a very, very strong audit. we have to have one that goes all the way to this -- the leaders of th a mistration, who ordered what and wind. >> wave to write to the fifth amendment a defense. as a former chief investigator of that committee, i'd help people in contempt. the senate and house. what you have to do is get to the full house and hold them in contempt of congress which is the only way you will get testimony out of her. lou: you will talk about that very issue, the man who raised the issue today. it isgreat to see you. back quickly and looking great. delighted to have you back.

>> that you very much. lou: you will talk with the sand . coming peroration reform headed to the full senate floor. senator jeff session does not think so next.

♪ lou: they gang of eig emigration bill was voted out o @%mmittee last night in the judiciary committee voting to approve the measure. >> i will. i will prepare. lou: yes, we can. breaking as three republican senators joined the democrats o

the committee. bad for workers taxpayers, an ameran safety. numerous others including armed services. eat to have you with this. you have fought a long and hard battle against this leglation in the dow moves to the floor. in your opini it will succeed or fail, which is it? >> we have to depend on the american people to pay attentio to the facts. at we need to know is that this would legalize over the next ten years 30 million people , about three times will we would normally legalize. it well hammer working americans . far, far too many low-skill workers that will take jobs and wages that people unemployed an

underemployed right now. it will add trillions to the long-term financial cost of the feet -- united states treasury from welfare and other benefits. the law's first -- law enforcement officers it will no work. it will make things work. it will threaten the national security. when need to make this legal system better. that bill just does not do it. lou: suggesting that there is something darwinian -- darwinia in all of this. they don't have the energy or care to defend its borders, to claim its sovereignty for its

citizens and the result is actually, if you will, a foregone conclusion. the destiny of the nation is in the hands of a new generation. howdy reacts to that? >> i think we need to ask some qutions along that line. who is the congress representing ? i just sawa bullet that said 800 people spent the night for five days and nights in queens waiting for job. i saw something in philadelphia ey expected a thousand people that had a conviction onheir record for jobs and 3,000 peopl showed up. people are looking for work in americ that is who we owe our loyalty to first. we need to be helping your people get work, get off welfare , enough food stamps, get out there and have that independence, take ca of the

family and have the time and health care. that is not happening, and we just cannot solve this many new workers. the will to stand up and articulate that. lou: it is strange,senator, that night, we talked many times, that mccain kennedy or kennedy mccain legislation of that era. here we are talking seven, six years later. the answer still isn't there. we have the heritage report. the is a great divide among conservatives. we don't know anymo about who the people are whh are in this country illegally. we don't know anymore about the demography.

neither side, not thosehat seek to secure the borde into managed ce emigration a well as those who seek to open the borders, amnesty, neither side has the intellectual rigor of knowing what we're talking about . we don't know what it will cost a new wi be in the country when it is said and done. we don't know what the effect will be on our borders some of the effect yesterday because we know for a fact half of the people coming across e border are not apprehended. we have -- it is just extraordinary, an issue that ha persisted without the benefit, frankly, of tremendous research and knowledge on the part of th senators to represent us the congressman and the presidents. >> it s remarkle. asked last week and yesterday. the prime pressure of the bill,

how many people would be legalized. he won't say. they will not even say how many people a going to be covered. how can we pass a major reform of we don't understand that? and no study has been done and the economic it's. just how many workers we really need for. the truth is, civil-rights commission members haveaid that we ve a surplus of low-skilled labor. that is to we need to be gettin into work and off of dependency. so i am really relieved that there is way too little thought in such as seri legislation. lou: i want to say, i know you have been the focus of numerous attacks. i just want to share some of th language. quickly. we are out of time. i want the audience to know. you presented your view. you have been in opposition to this legislation. you ha done so honorably and

forthrightly. the washington post attacking you, i have to say, he begins b saying, not since george wallac has a and alabama in been a taken as passionate the stand for a lost cause athe one jeff sessions is taking now. and then i get this terrible sensation that he was trying to mak a different point and on that probably is not too flattering to have. he said that he shouted in his trademark twang the wi sevener , the petulant to alabama and, the only audible note ca from

>> we will try to tell the trut about it and the american peopl will convey to their representatives what they think. >> absolutely. thank you. center jeff sessions. lou: and angry press turns on the attorney general holder for violations of first amendment rights. former justice department attorney tells us whether or no the attorney general can wistand yet another controversy. ♪

lou: the president today reaffirmed his support and nt ty confidence in attorney-general eric holder despite concerns g over the justice department's seizure of the associated press reporters and editors phone uest

records.n our next guest served in the obama justice department and has subpoenaed records from a news r organization and tse share part of that with us tonight.iec oining us is christian adams, s former u.s. department of ght, j justice attorney author of the book and justice. good to have you with us.oo >> thank you. lou: let's turn to first what has happened here.l the internal revenue service tht site is about to become an even to b bigger scandal because of what e the administration appartly tried to do which was to ignore the fact that the woman who led that tax-exempt division was, i fact, left in placeat, of all departments, theaffordability -- the afforble carr unit that will be managing 16,500 irs agents added his support the individual mandate and obamacar itself. i it could not get much worse forr that one small unit, could it?

>> probably not. this is an administration that u knows how to use power and lovet it.bl ide they put their most reliable, ideological, seasoned career bureaucrats into the most ar important places, and that is was happing in health care act . lou: this may, in fact, be the s death nail for affordable care t because there is trust in ovnm this government right now, not i i any court, this homeland o security, the ste department, %-loud., treasury for crying ou this is outrageous. >> what hapned with the irs is n frightening. to it is h not supposed to happen ha america to have theve powerful ring of a government like the address attacking people becaus of their beliefsse, becaus theyy believe in liberty this government was attackinghem, acg singling them out, asking for m, what books they read. t

this is the most outrageous sor of stuff that is never supposed to happen as a country.id lou: president obama -- as i watched and listened to them, literally stunned as he tked about going to senator schumer o to restart the legislation, then shield law, the effect of whichh would be is asking she were to injuries legislation that, if passed andigned by him caledon protect journalists from his en. justice department's. this is outrageous and so zarr bizarre. >> well, there is no there i accountability. this is a situation where the justice department issuedthese insanely over broad subpoenas. insanely over broad investigations of a news organization. then the could have done y,thing much more limited than

what they did. what they did is in keeping witr their loss of power.lo lou: as i said, you, while serving in the obama justice departmenn had to subpoena a 3b news organizztion. compare the experience for various reasons you cannot divulge the name of a large his organization. what was your experience, how tw limited was it?s one will the differences?hatus >> this was one of the most . an careful thingsthe justice o g department can do, and then s to use the power to go after a news organization. they're very clear on the you he regulations and guidelines.ir you have to try to work it out.t you have to try to negotiate a resolution and use the least s,t inrusive means, and most of allr , you have to have the attorney general personally sig off on your request, which she did for me. this justice department scraps all of this.y they don't have the ey

attorney-general sign-off. l they don't use the least use t restrictive means. use the most restrictive means and cast a gigantic neton, it i. lou: and in terms of frighting, you were also audited. >> yea %-letour political views, and collusion with this highly policized administration. is this administrion political orgization this has now taken control of a federal government that -- there a day its seems tha this fedal government circumstance is attacking values, traditions and laws of this country and our citizens, as if they are warring on citens across the board, in this

government. >> these are the people that founders feared, i saw it happening up close when i worked inustice department, the attitude toward government is a perk of power, you impose your rld view the country. and now america starting to see it. and that is hardly vinditing it is very disappointing but, these scandals, ap, a irs this is what these peoplere about, this isot mismanage am this is a muscular ideology that w dennis: we appreciate you being with us. please come back soon. coming up next, e obama irs admits wwongdoinn. but they will not say who was responsible for targeting conservative groups. the "a-team" unveils obama credibility

the one a growing number of labor unions turning on obamacare. among them is the united workers international. ey are woied now about the impact of obamacare. also the united workers is another group that is calling for the repeal of obamacare. the 1.4 million member union that is calling for changes in obamacare. joining us now is the "a-team." analyst lis wiehlnd hank sheinkopf and senior editor john fund. lis wiehl, let me start with you. lois lerr will be before the

house oversight committee. >> absolutely. yodon't take the fifth amdment unless you think you've done something wrong. they won't advise you to that unless you have a problem. >> the plans were thwarted and delayed. the dono were scared off. lou: here's what it meant for the election. >> there wer voter suppression charges in the last election. they suppress the vote. they suppress the tea party, they suppressed get out the vote efforts, all kinds of groups

that would have involved this. that may have played a role for the outcome of that very close election. can we also attach to that the fact that the story did not come out, and it's pretty clear that the inspector general's report was ow, if i can be very gent about it. >> this is interference in

american polics that is ll well a good. to the irs is eplaining tax exemption. >> a coalition passholder test. clearly it was harassment after seven years. if this went on for that long, it should have been investing somedies nose on it. i am speaking metaprically. because this is just ridiculous, the grown men and women who are committing themselves to be treated this way by any agency of the federal government. that is what i don't quite comprehend. but there is a lot i don't comprehend. >> there is enough stuff here.

>> i'm just going to go to a commercial break. [laughter] >> we'relso going to find out what is going on in benghazi and why. and we now have testimony from two different department officials before the armed services committee of the house and what they revealed today. it is indeed remarkable. we will have that with the 18 in just thank you orville and wilbur... ...amelia... neil and buzz: for teaching us that you can't create the future... by clinging to the past. and with that: you're history. instead of looking behind... deltis looking beyond. 80 thousd of us investing billions... in everything om the best experiences below... to the fest comforts above. we're not simply saling history... we're making it.

>> we are going to tur to benghazi and mt americans surveyed the most recent fox poll. they said that benghazi is a cover-up by this administration

ambassador stevens withdrew a force of 20 million before the attack. one month before the attack. on the 18th of august. >> they ar in benghazi. they have changed the

relationship with the defense strategy,. lou: wreless christopher stevens in benghazi? to well, they are whistleblowers that are going to come forward. let's just say that it was a national security outpost. i think a lot of this was conducted outsi of the state department and defense department.

when the white house on sunday said that we can have in a relevant situation, but they won't give you a timeline with the president was up to. why was that directive ignored. >> [inaudible] lou: hank, what you have to say? >> let's face it, folks. why don't you call the white house? congress has tried for eight months. that is your customary standard. you know very well that it is at the prerogative of this

president. >> how many others were there? lou: the fact is the ptern that each one of these offenses are aimed against our traditional form of government.

i thank you all for being here. lis wiehl, hank this. >> "the willis report" is coming up next. thanks for watching. rri: hello, i am gerri willis. tonight on "the willis eport." as homeowner claims rise and natural disasters mount, insurance companies are becoming stingier with payouts. also, getting the best deal when you buy a used car. and your medical privacy. we have you covered tonight on "the willis report." our top story tonight is insurance companies becoming stingier with