willis report". thank you for joining us. have a grt holiday weekend. ♪ sheinkopf, tank you all for being here. good night from new york. neil: it is time to tell our thoughts. welcome, i am nl cavuto. here's how badhe scandalous are getting. eric holder is investing himself. he is revealing how his justice department went about targeting ap and fox news reporters even thoughe now know it was eric holder himself okay targeting our collie, james rosen.

too much time has been wasted on ories that just don't add up with whistleblowers that are itching to talk. reportedly they are lining up. i asked a few questions.

if we are talking about the window,. makes sense to have people coming in, only interested in getting through what happens in conducting them with a full and fast and impartial investigation neil: we have talked to them on and off the recod. it seems like ken starr went on a witchhunt, exploring things that went way beyond and we

political witchhunt. >> when you say giving me independent counsel, you have the ability to do your own investigation. now you're giving up power the power and you have to sit back and wait for the result but i'm going to do my investigation. a special prosutor is doing his or her in thing. the irs and the justice department. many are getting equally torque.about health and human services paper public health care law which could

be multiple prosecutor needs. would you see that ever happening? >> you would see that this starts with a club of documen. >> i could not even image chanically. they fear that initially going after the s, and what happened, it will naturally slip into the justice department. it distills over with and unbending hit.

>> it would make sense to brin in one independent counsel to do onjob at one time. if you really are not interested in the truth, but you are only interested in pointing fingers and saying, you a the right and the wrong, everyone decides in the sandbox. you feel good about the process and know that it it' really about the truth and not aboutt3 politics. neil: ouhave multiple answers, but you do it so brilliantly.

neil: back to ben stein. who knew what and when. let's talk about this again. m sure that you have been peppered by questions by so many. i will be the latest to chat about this with you. what do you think? >> it is like watergate, very much. we have a president that his is ught with his pants down, doing all inds of bad tngs in this adminnstration. there is fox and a few internet sites, eitheway,,it doesn't matter. it is not going to cost him his job, he's not going to have to resign. neil: do think that that will

stay? >> oh, absotely. unless they turn up investigation. they will lay down the laws for obama. neil: this is what happens in government. you take big leagues. he gets to gigantic. >> this is not that case. in this case, wee knew that the cincinnati office was targeting political groups done a lot it

is known in dodd-frank in the white house. the irs is also targeting antiabortion rights. and they are also pestering and harassing them and that is a big part of the story. you are never going to see that in "the new york times." never, never, never. neil: one thing i always wonder is after watergate. those who ever again get to the abuses, we are avenging on enemies. >> okay. neil: i'm thing that happen again. >> of course it will happen

again. of course it will happen. the government is made up of very ordinary people with all the ordinary emotions that human beings have. many of the emotions ar revenge. neil: barack obama doess't have to say or do anything. that in and of itself is an inevitability. you think you're doing the president's bidding without them telling you to. for all we know, they are very close and these are smart enough things to figure out. we don't know what he is telling

him. mr. eric holder is a hyper partisan guy. i am wondering as we had the secretary of the treasury, we shall see. neil: it is always good to have you, my friend. >> it is an honor, sir. neil: is the government giving a reason why it happened? are bureaucrats finally out of control? even some top democrats a gearing up. maybe you should start learning about that. then how abercrombie and fitch then how abercrombie and fitch is pushing for the same bottom.

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neil: the scandals are stacking up like trains on an airport runway. we have david have lunch on thi growing problem. as well as katie pavlich. td, what youhink of this? >> are longtime you have big government proponents saying that the government works for the peple. we are seeing with scandals in government ways that the government is expensive and most importantly, it means that big government is you can't hold anyone accountable for bad decisions made in government. there is no reason why we need bloated federal government programs.

>> now that we have this information we learned about, the amount of 0,000, i mean, this is part of big government. th is really about an administration that is not being transparent. a proise that they would be the most transparent administration in istory. neil: let's say the administration didn't have any direct ties to the white house. but this was some activity on the part of overzealous agents, maybe beyond the office involved. but that it is here, the dimensions speak to how big the irs has gotten and now the irs is taking control of enforcing the health care law. it shows it has gotten out of control. and that is the underlying problem. >> well, i do not agree with the premise. we do not have a growing problem, but we have a growing problem. it is too big, it is too complicated. it becomes not a logical conversation about what we do

about it. the people against government want to get rid of it. that is not a particularly good solution. >> befe the irs agents take contl health care, let's get this under control. >> my only point is that this isn't new, there are not scandals piling up. >> you have the jstice department,. >> they are behaving badly, they

should speak to those in the firr. neil: katie, there is a multiple feeling going on here. >> yes, this is absolutely having to do with big government and i want to push back that we want to get rid of government. the fact is they government does not work. we have seen this with the irs. we have seen this with obamacare. we have seen it with medicare, medicaid, every civil sector in the government. education. the fact is that big government is bad government. >>ou are not describing government. >> you are not describing government, yes, i am. it is a new problem. >> okay, let's bring our next guest in.

we should slow down and get to the boom of this. there will be subpoena powers that will occur if you rort the facts. especially they don't report having us. you think that big government is the perfect example and it is to blame for everything. we have a grievous problem. most of it is local government.

>> i am sick of democrats saying that it doesn't really matter. it doesn't matter. the irs is using all t power they have the fact is that the irs has a very powerful agency in the federal government. and it was specifically targeting groups for political purposes. and now the administration is saying i have to tell you that

this is how we feel. but having saidll that, i think he gets back to the basic notion it is not my contract. but i think that that is built into a lot of this. @% i think that the bigger government gets a bigger institution and they are riiht for this. it is a very big drop in the bucket. >> i thought that was a very effective video. neil: the one guy looked very much like this. >> igoes with a larger problem. this includes not living long

and not prospering. neil: okay, we will have you back in a little bit. would you pay twice as much to give this guy what he is demanding? your conscience or you're [ man ] on december 17, 1903, the wright brothers beme the first in flight. [ goodall ] i think the most amazing thing is how like us these chimpanzees are. [ laughi ] [ woman ] can you hear me? and you hear your voice? oh, it's exciting! [ man ] touchdown confirmed. we're safe on mars. [ cheers and applause ] ♪ hi. [ baby fussing ] ♪

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neil: young young and restless and apparently hungry. very hungry. to hear mcdonald's tell us that millennial eat. those 19 years old to 34 years old really like to eat fast food. but they mix their cravings for social justice. if they think that you take advantage of your workers, they won't take advantage of your sport you're a w-mart or a

restaurt. mcdonald's is trying to get ahead of us. whato you think that your generation would pay more for a burger and go to a place that doesn't pay its workers enugh to get paid $8.20 an hour and theyant $15. well, we had 7.5% unemployent right now. >> a lot of them make the case

and are somehow taken advantage of ithat it's not fair or right. you say at they can discern some differences? >> well, i think so. i think when you have is, that, that is what drives people to your store. if you leave these protests, minimum wage, whatever they are protesting about, that is no social justice. me and us and cnsumers. a lot of folks will pay a little bit more, they think. a little bit more to make sure

that workers are tated well. i think that most people are not in a livable wage. these numbers are at an all-time low. young millennialist don't like unions either. the reason why did they realize that they may end up like the hostess bakery unit, which ended up leaving all of their members unemployed at. >> the dirty little secret if you've never eaten there, that right? [laughter] neil: i like the plague along. michelle, it is so great to see you. have a great weekend. well, we already know. is this china's way of going to is this china's way of going to war without ever copd makes it hard to breathe... but with advair, i'm eathing better.

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♪ neil: hacking our computers to get our depes military screets, blatantly stealing apple patents to apitalize on top technology secrets, and doing this while funding our floating debt, which is hrdly a secret. connect them. is it china's way of winning a war without launching a single missile? we thought of china back ward. to the retired general who says we have it wrorng. china's looking at chilling

version of warfare going foard. it is interesting, general, nay they have won so much without so much as one physical alteation. >> yeah, you know, it goes to the great chinese military theorists sun su whose principle of war is to win b not fighting. the chinese have een disciples of the art of war for 3,000 years. it's not new, it's just done with computers rather than their traditional forms of espionage. look, the chinese want two things. number one, they want military secrets, and number two, they want intellectual property they can use to gain economic advantage and t gain weapons building advantage without havi to invest in technology. as far as chinese are concerned, this makes perfectceps. they know they will not go to war inhe united states over an island in the south china sea, but in a way, at least to the

chinese mind set, they really already are at wr with us. neil: they discovered as well that money talks. we, as a country in their debt, we're always op defense. nevernipped the fact tht guys like you they need us as mch, if not more than we need them. we buy their junk as it is. we are always on defense. they know that. they have our number; right? >> what's interesting is i was in china a few years ao, and one of the things they found interesting wa the method reagan used to take down the soviet union, and the pla's senior leadership said we are so fascinated with the genius of the american people in their ability to defeat the soviet union deflecting spending and beating them at their own game, military technology, and we think that's fascinating, and what you see, what, now, ten years on?

it's a physical manifestation of thoughts they had since the beginning of the 1990s, neil. neil: general you'r far more well adversed in military history than i'll be. usually, you come to blows. when there's a change in power, there's a military shall feel or altercation or war. i just cannot imagine thi country going quietly into the night or then a new power emerging, and we just sort of wimply fall by the side, ut could it be that way? >> well, you know, nuclear weapons changed everything. neil: true. >> it led the world into a new era where you defeat the united states one of two ways, terrorism, and you can use war in the shadows, you can use economic warfare, soft warfare, defeat your opponents by forcing him to spend himself or stealing a secret and beating him at his own technological game, but both

ofthes are done bloodlessly. when they got nuclear weapons, big scale warfare is off the table, but that does not mean our confrontation with cina is any easier in the future, neil. neil: amazing, general, thank you. >> thank you, neil. neil: meanwhile, j-lo, please, say it ain't so. you are stunning, and you don't have to say a thing, but id you hear about the ceo of aercromb abercrombie and fitch? you will never shop at that store again. again. it's as simple as this. at b bny mellon, our business is investments. managing them, moving them, making them work. we oversee 20% of the world's financial assets.

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the guy whose stores are nope for chiz -- chic led models saying larger people shouldn't shop there, and shoppers of all sizes saying, you know where you can go? he overred a semiapologizes, revenue down, outlos work. should he be blitz out on his ass? >> i understand he's trying to defend the brand, putting a size 12 brand in the mouth. it's one thing to target specific customers, but another to exclude them. >> you know, really the mistake made was saying what she was thinking and ay traps of the store are thinking he just put to words what a lot of foks think. you don't look like the models, then you don't go in there. >> neil, yeah, but i mean, you prod it's possible to be obese and successful -- neil: i'm not obese, right now, i'm angry, young an, but

continue the train of thought. >> abf has a brand. w want to look like the models in the magazines and whatnot, but they have to be not just cool, but approachable. most people are heavier than the 70-pound waist in the catalog and alienate customers, think, is ire representable damming to the brand. neil: stating the obvious, i mean, supposed to be hip and cool and everybody aspired to that, but what they didis just hurt the bran by appearing like the elitist ?oots they are, and even among the core audience; right? >> well, i think so. you know, what's ironic to me, is, yes, we have a problem with chronic obesity in the country, adjusting insurance mortality tables to airline seats. there was a missed opportunity here. he could have said, let's take it and help america get healthy to do this together. i don't know how to put the spin

on it, i'm not a pr expert, but he didn't get council on this. neil: he did not. >> showing up in the stock. neil: indeed. >> roadway tailers doing well, but his stock in the late 1990s. neil:ou two a thin, and who is the diot who came up with "morbidly obese," anyway, issue two, a retail ceo who gets it and wants to get to the bottom of it. sear's new bosssays stop blaming the economy for poor sale but to lookin the mirror, work your butts off, and turn the sales around. >> that is taking speedometer -- responsibility for one's action. a lot of the political leaders, neil, the ceo of sears gets it, not just talking about taking responsibility, but putting money where his mouth is owning the majority share of the company's share. he's putting not just the reputation on th line, butthe money as well. that's called taking responsibility. neil: keith, it's not moving the

needle yet for the store, but maybe that attitude will? >> well i hope so. you know, i would have liked th statement better if he said the buck starts with me so let's lead by exple, but, you know, that's neither here nor there. they have problems with the real estate. i think the stoc price reflects that. in this ecoomy, i'm not sure -- i have lps today -- i don't know he'll get out of this. neil: do you think sears, the jcpenney problem, losing adentty, and workers, in general, manyof them bith and complain, but maybe that's the problem? people don't relate or understand maybe it's the tools, is it consumer products -- >> well, yeah. how do you take a company that's very old and has no identity, being everything to everybody for so long. it's not ma and pa kettle on the farm. this is the internet age everything availableto

everybody 4/7. >> we were worried they would serve mr. ed on our plates. be more worry they seek rubs alcohol in the drinks. apparently, that was the case at some restaurants including a tgif's that reportedly swapped out scotch with rubbing alcohol. you have to be plowed not to notice that. what do you think of it >> >> well, i'm the moststaunch defender of business, but what is this? watering down the wine, i mean, this is fraud. when companies, they do the brand, neil. i'm not going to sing that but the audice knows it, and it is fraud, and, you know, it really not only hurts people in terms of the pocketbooks, but causes a great health risk as well, they get one drink, but it's dish water. tere example and ruins reputation of all businessmen when folks engage in this. neil: celt, first of all, it's

not as if rubbg alcohol is similar to scotch. it's not like -- not uite; right? >> right! neil: how do you feel abo this? th really defeat on a criminal scale here. >> not just deceit, but fraud, criminal activity, negligence, medical liability, but this speaks to me, are things really so bad in small business america or even middle bsness america that they are willing to sel their ethics down the road and do this voluntarily? i mean, i have to question the management and ownership here. the fact they claim they didn't knoit was going on when margins showed it, they account for every bottle and every oue of alcohol in a restaurant like that. stunned this is just coming to ligh. neil: what happened is as soon as we get word, the horse meat thing, and the meatballs are hor meat, and i just thought they sold purpose --

furniture, but they hae other problems that crop up; right? >> it comes from the deceit. however much money bars think they saved in serving ba liquor instead of the good stuff, they more than pissed tat away. that's not going to be replaced. lying is not just bad morally, but bad business. this is an example. neil: we have half price drinks with rubbing alcohol. you know. >> exactly. you'll be cleaner when you finish. neil: brilliant line. dpies, thank you very much. meanwhile, reuniting. hear about this? well, not these guys. these guys. who wns? ♪ [ slap! ] [ slap! slap! slap! slap! ] ow! ow! [ male announcer ] your favorite foods fighting you? fight back fast with tums. calcium-rich tums starts working so fast you'll forget you had heartburn. ♪ tum tum tum tum tums

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neil: lost weight, and now gaining clout. with democrats, the state of new jersey, 61% of whom like republicangovernor christie. th president obama visiting him again on tuesday to sort of take a post-sandy checcup, watch what they say could push governor christie into big re-election territory in a blue state, and maybe all the wayo the white house. you know, it's interesting, bob, rather than distance hielf from the president, the governor s consistently embraced the president. it might aliene conservatives within the pear, but he doesn't seem to care. what's this all about? >> right. no, i think that'sright. this is kind of a little of payback by the president because when the president was up for re-election, christie and obama worked close on sandy relief, and now christie is up, and he' a big favorite to win re-election, and now obama is coming back up to see him. i do think it helps christie

big-time in the short term, and in the log term, republicans have to expand the map. they are hungry for a win, and, sure, this is going to upse the base. it upset the base last year: christie handles qestions deafly, and he thinks about the presidency, maybe it's not 20 # 16, could be, maybe 202, it's on the mind. neil: he argued that, you know, focused on new jersey, the reason he didn't run for president, last go around, he was not ready for that, and it's all about new jersey, new jersey. i'm thinking that if he gets reelected by anything approaching the margin, some of the polls indicate, that would be the digest victory for any governor in new jersey in history, let alone a republican in a vey, very blue state. he would almost be impressing upon republicans who might not like him, lookkwhat i just did; right? >> yeah, that's right. that i cn appeal to democrat

independents something that mitt romney and mccain struggling with against arack obama, and i think that the rpublican ectors going through the evolution of figuring out where are we going, the bottom line is they want to win in 2016. they want to eat hillary clinton. who bets her i 2016? republicans think christie could beat her. kneel bob, you're the first to educate me on the primaries, the one that had romney because he ran to the right, ran back to the middle, always in between and that's going to be a difficult process for someone like christie. what do you think of that? c-span: . -- >> there is. there's going to be problems if he runs. the iowa caucus is difficult because a lot of the ases there, conservatives there, but i think people vote more on personality than policies, and if christie can deal with his weaknesses, and i remember years

back, people said you like collective bargaining, and he aggressively said, look, i love it, i love to get into the union and beat them at the table. it was a good argument to a supposed weakness, and christie's good at that. that's a skill that tt romney really did not show a lot on the campaign trail. neil: he is personally appealing, might trump whatever politicadifferences people have. he's his own guy. we'll see how that goes. >> likability so important, neil. neil: i built a career on it, bob. you're right, have a good weekend, thank you very much. >> thanks, neil. neil: what's the difference between lerner and a zombie? nothing, nothing at all, i am dead serious. [ engine revving ] ♪ [ male announcer ] every car we build must make adrenaline pump and pulses quicken. ♪ to help you not just to stay alive...

but feel alive. the c-class is no exception. it's a mercedes-benz, through anthrough. see your authorized mercedes-benz dealer for exceptional oers through mercedes-benz financial services. we're not in london, arwe? no. why? apparently my debit card is. what? i know. don't worry, we have cancelled your old card. great. thank you. in addition to us monitoring your accounts for unusual activity, you could also set up free account alerts. okay. [ femalennouncer ] at wells fargo we're working around the clock to help protect your money and financial information. here's your temporary card. welcome back. how was london? [ female announcer ] when pele talk, great things happen.

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lerner stepped down, but with full pay at the irs. i guess she's doing so as investigating all hergovernment shenanigans targeting conservative groups, but what does it take to terminate, to fire, to get rid of anyone in the government? fcc guys too busy watching porn to chase bad guys stealing millions, bureaucras in government agencies made up talking points on benghazi to get to the bottom of what happened in benghazi, no one fired. see a pattern here that's over the top? that's what we have on whether any of this is remotely fair. katie? >> well, i'm laughing at the true analogies about zmbies and porn, but that's the government and the way it runs, and the fact is, this week with lerner, we learned that you can't fire government employees, and not only is she at the top of the pay scale within the government, but she also is an attone has

a protection of a union behind her, and we both know, and everyone in the panel knows, that if she did this in the private sector, she would have been gone five days ago, and he governmt probably wld have launched a probe to investigate her for discrimination in the private sector but apparently that doesn't go on inside the government. neil: the is something called due proces and i'll get into it here, we got, you know, we do have a ystem in place to not, you know, throw someone out on thbutt if they have not been implicated. having said that, though, there's many examples in the private sector where something happens under your watch, ignorance is a poor defee, and you're out, period. >> you're right, and, you know, the government should be more like businesses. many states are right-to-work states meaning the employer and employee can leave the employmentt any time, and we should see that in the overnment, neil, and, you know, the fact it appened under her

watch, nothing happened to er, refused to testify, it's very concerning. neil: adam, what do you think of this, though, that sometimes we do have to make an example, do we not? if no one is leaving and no one has been so much as reprimended, it begs to question you don't want to heave out someone, and that breeds its own ill-will, doesn't it? >> sure. when they do something wrong, they should be fired. if they break the law, they should be prosecuted. we agree. if we want to ave a policy conversation and compare government and the corporate world which is extremely difficult and, no, we don't want the government to run like a corporation in every instaps, t this comes down to an issue of level i mean, people get fired in the government, or, youknow, leave quickly under embarrassing situations. i think the general mcchrystal, general petraeus, think of various cabine members over the years who stepped over the line andgot ired.

the question is do we want to fire a senior level bureaucrat or want to ridicule a senior level state department person who may or may not have done anything wron just because we're all upset about it, and i think the short answer is, no, and the same should be true, by the way -- nei i disagree, adam. i think th short answer is yes. i'm not saying it's the top guy at any of the agencies, but more heads shou roll under their respective watches that these things happens, and they migh not be responsible, b when the best excuse is didn't know what the hell was going on, well, that warrants, i'm sorry, you're history >> well, and the facts we've seen that lerner signed off on not allowing these tea party groups applying for tax exempt status to get that. neil: to be fair, the letters with the signature do not mean she was targeting the groups, but was denied p on the phone: doesn't mean she didn' know about it, and the argument is out the window, the idea she

knew these groups were applying for the tax exempt statu saying she didn't know, that creates an often times in the corporate world we hear the ceo or higher ups created a culture of whatever. inside the irs, they created a culture of intimidation and targting ofthe groups. lerner did nothing to stop it. didn't show any remorse. neil: she should go? >> absolutely. neil: i don't want you as my boss. i want adam with my boss because i would get away with murder with adam. >> yes, you would. neil: i guess where we get at with this is thats is tougher in government, the example east not withstanding hat adam raised, but it is tougher in government to see these guys go than it is in the corporate world. now, there might be something to be said of that, dueprocess, all of the above, but i think it just makes those who think a scandal is brewing think more scandalously. >> well, two points here, neil. first, i think many of the examples adam mentioned, they wereasked to resign and

resigned. i don't think they were fired. point two is hat the irs because of a law that passed in the late 1990s is able to fire employees and get out of theupon agreements, if they violate what they call the ten deadly sins, and the inspector genral, the irs on the hill this wee saying it could have happened here. they -- even when they have the authority to fire people, to oor knowledge, they have not yet. >> uh-huh. >> so i think your first point is a really interesting e getting to the difference between a political governmt official and a career goverent official, and it's a good thing for our country that we have a professional bureaucracy, and now, befo you ju over me, they are not perfect. i mean, they are deeply flawed, as we all are, but you have a bureaucracy that is protected from political whims. the reason why political people are not fired, the reason they resign, iss that eerybody understands that the president always has their resignation letter on his deek so to speak

saying, guess what, i'm accepting your resignation, thank you as very much. that's calledded being firedded. we want the political people to be fired quickly. neil: i'm beginning to extend on that. >> buick roar sighs are protected? neil: when reagan threatened to fire the air traffic controllers at the time threatening to strike, he said, well, you can't do that, you're vital personnel it says here you cannot go out on strike. they still threatened he threatened back saying, you do it, we'll fire you. they did. he fired them. there was warnings. mr. prsident, there's a possibility there could be a lot of planes and passengers dying. he didn't care. none of that happened. they were fired, life went on. there was a consequence for an action that theynew there should be a consequence for it. >> that's how it should be. the culture in government, whether it's at a city level or in the washington, d.c. level is that you move up, and you screw up. as you screw up, you move up.

it doesn't matter what responsibilities you have as long as you plead ignorance saying it was not you fault and point to another guy. you will not be fired. in the instance of us protecting bureaucracies from the political whi, the irs case wa completely political. the entire targeting of the groups was based on politics so to say they are protected somehow, -- >> no, no. >> the political whms, not true, and talk about firing employees, let's talk about the fact that hussein, the guy who shot up fort hood is still pulling a government paycheck. even though he killed americans on their ases. neil: adam? >> on the political topic, you're changing the subject. if they, you know, played politics and broke -- >> they did. neil: okay, you would fire them as well. in this case, it was blatant, clear, unadulterated, fire. >> investigate it, find facts as soon as pock, and et rid of people.

>> it's just a matter of when among you guys, just how quikly you act. >> and at what level. >> we agree mor than you think. neil: thank you, all. that'll do $15.5 billion. "imus in the morning" starts right now. >> ladies and gentlemen, "imus in the morning". don: i was thinking about n coming to work today. the only reason i came to work is so wouldn't have to cancel shooter jennings. i know my voice soundsorrible but i am going to be all right, just going to take a few days. before we get to shooter jennings who has the new album, didn't realize how