on my website. radio show every weekday 3:00 to 6:00 eastern time. we'll have another great tv show for you next week. in the meantime, i hope to hear you on the radio. lou: hello, everybody, and than you for being with us. the people are swearing to tell the truth in front of the house oversight committee, although not many americans are expected to believe them, and this woman, lerner, the woman the center of the ira scandal did the unthinkable for a suppedly public servants. >> i have been advised by my counsel to assert my constitutional rigight not to testif or answer questions related to the subject matter o this hearing. lou: lerner took the fifth and refuse to answer questions afte pleading her case for a series of denials and deflections abou the lawfulness of her actions.

do you believe hewhen she says she is innocent? >> i have not done anything wrong. i have not broken any laws. i have not violated any irs rules or regulations, and they have not provided false information to this or any othe congressional committee. some people will listen that i have done something wrong. i haveot. lou: congressmen goudy made it clear that he does not believe her until she is subject hersel to cross-examination by the coittee. and the congressman introduced and electric moment into those proceedis when he said thaty telling her de of the stories she had given a perfect the man writes. here he is. >> mr. cummings is shot to $5 n this by the court room. he just testified and waved her fifth amendment right to privilege. you wi get to tell your side of the story in the not be subjected to cross-examination.

lou: the congressman wi join us in moments of talk about the latest in the obama irs scandal. also, among our guests, the man who led opposition to the gang of ght immigration bill, senator jeff sessions, and we will be talking about the political impactf all of the ite house scandals, former senator scott brown. but joining us now, member of the house oversight committee, former federal prosecutor. you heard his view of the fact that lerner forfeited her right under the fifth amendment when she played her innocence before the committee. and thats now a subject to be determined. it is great to have you back with this. >> thank you. lou:t is your firm view that she developed which she said suez andhe sense, the assertionshat she did not

break the law violated any regulations. what do you think the automobile ? >> well, if they apply u.s. versus brown which is the supreme court case on waving your fifth amendment privilege against incrimination, you cannot have it both ways. you cannot he to sale of the things that are exculpatory about you without having to withstand cross-examination. i think the chairman is going over all of his legal remedies tonight. one of which includes -- becaus he did not adjourn, he reid says , bring her back tomorrow. if she votes tomorrow, again, a you pointed out, her opening statement, she made a soliloquy about how innocents she was and specifically says she would never leto congress. we, you don't get to ju say that without having to answer a few questions about it. if she evokes tomorrow then the chairman and house will have to decide whether or not to hold

her in contempt. immunity is something that we were taught to play in court, but i don't think that will be contemplated, nor should it be. lou: the president of citizens united served on the stand of the house oversight committee. he said that the straightforwar approach here is the decision must be made by a full load of the use as to whher or not she is a contempt. >> youreaction? lou: at least three different forms of contents, and i want t challenge his analysis. there are two other forms. you can never make a witness talk. you can give em consequences for notalking, but you can never make this person talk.

the other alternative, of course , is to do it --? mr. sherman. refer this for a criminal investigation. the u.s. attorney and others have access to tools that the congressman don't and that is metimes a good way to it do that as well. lou: former irs mmissioner douglas chairman, an acquaintance now, your colleagu says he visited the white house. visit the white house 118 times in 2010 and 2011. i mean, that is standing inand of itself. by itself us suppose it means nothing, but it suggests a cluster relationship but the white house and in the irs commissioner i ever heard, acting or otherwise. >> jimmy jordan did a fanstic job researching that. at the white hous more than some of the employees who work at the white house. of course very poor on things h

is not wanto talk about and splendid on issues he does want to engage john. he cannot remember what they talk to and whether or not it was targeting the conservative groups or plementation of the affordle care act. he did not make a very compelling witness in my dgment. lou: the committee along with the rest of the house, the focu now be -- i know that there has been a temptation. there is an effort on th part of the administration, the democrats to conflate and numbe of issues, the ambiguity. that sort of thing. tax cut issues. even th chairman of the ways and means wants toalk about reforming the tax cut. with the american people need here is a vast set of answers t really troubling questions in the end to the contact that you committee is examining.

will we seee that kind of focusd ? >> i hope so. one of my colleagues on the other side of the ll mention the special prosecutor. that was a democrat. i think -- i saw level -- i kno what to say about partisanship, but equalopportunity, outrage thatdoes not exist on most issues. you also heard me ask, can you name a single person who made the decion to target the chairman? here we are years after the decision and there are no names. lou: but -- if i were one of your viewers i would be asking every member of congress for this started, where it is insidious report idea originated. andtil we can answer that then we have not done our jobs as members of congress. u: so far soood. i keep asking. my success rate is not much higher than that. i know that the congressman wil change of that. we thank you for being with us.

>> thank you and have a good night. lou: you, too. coming up, a credibility crisis for the obama lighthouse. the administration accused of abusing the trust of the american people. can americans get the truth out of this admistration? former senator scott brown on exactly that question next. welcome to the new buffalo... whe new york state is investing one billion dollars to attct and grow business. where companies like geico are investing in technology & finance. welcome to the state where cutting taxes for business... is our business. welcome to the new buffalo. welcome to the new buffalo. welcome to the new buffalo. new york state is throwing out the old rule book to give your business a new edge, the edge you can oy get in new york state.

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♪ lou: former senator ott brown says the obama administration has abused the trust of the american people in connection with the irsscandal. joining me now to discussthe political impact of all of thes scanda that are emerging and plaguing this administration is former senator brrwn, now a fox

news contributor. great to have you with us. and the more that we listen to what this administration says the more conscious we year. >> when does that line gets drawn and when did ty cro that line and i will tell you what, the rate of ee speech, the right of the press to do their jobs as a check and balance that is needed in government. other than that sometimes there is that check and balan. the getting closer. i say it before and again. what happened with parasites have to go.

try to reestabli that just of the american people. the justi department and holder should have been fired a long time ago. very few people in congress that have any faith in his authority. fast and furious, trying to hav ksm tried in new york city, we are hearing on d on and on. when does it stop? lou: the attorney-general turning to the justice department scandal testified before congress saying that he could not imagine such a thing as by on the press when precisely this attorney general is doing precisely what he was nine. >> if he did he should be fired in defeated not nobody should b fired. all the people wo for him, and he works for the president. it has been a clear and convincing, almost a bullying

and chilling effect on entities individual citizens, news gathering agencies, individuals and it is wrong. it is not what our country is all about. as i said, he should have been fired a long time ago. it is unacceptable. lo the justice department scandal the silence was deafening from the floor of the state's when they should have been joinedn this administtion and bring powerful and critical judgments to bear against you. now we find that our colleagues had been surveiled. in the case of james rosen, someone in the justice department named him as a iminal co-conspirator waste is

-- this person not to be inail for lying, in my opinion, right now. what is your reaction? this is worsening by the week. plexes america, correct? we do live in america. listen. i am dumbfounded as to how people a sell in their jobs. take a wide swath and go after the ap and have this blanket inquiry preparation, if it was more specific instance and ther was a real national security risk would say, okay, that is different, that is not the case. to label a journalist as a co-conspirator is very serious. that needs to obviously be held accountable. im shocked that every news agency whether it is conservative, and urged a more liberal is not going after the justice department of filing th opprobrium lawsuits to make sur that this and other things like

this never happen again. lou: this administration is quickly making it clear, are they not, that tre is a yea to assail the first amdment as they are the second. people thought there would be limits and there appear to be none. your thoughts as we wrap up? >> very simpl we, as american citizens, have to look out for our rights and interest. now we have an executive branch and others who worked for the executive branch shirking their authority and taking it a step too far, need t stand up as americans and pushed back because that comes to the media individual citizens, the file lawsuits, pushed back by gettin these people out of ofce and demanding redress and accountability. full, open, and become an transparent investigation into each and every one of these matters. lou: thank you very much. >> thank you. lou: the irs abused its public

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lou: our next guest says president obama in essence a issued marching orders to democrs in his ainistration by attacking the supreme court decision non-citizens united in his 2010 state of the union adess. joining us tonight is the president of citizens united. it is great to have you with us. when you say, in essence, what do you mean? >> well, first of all, thank yo for having me. this is ssch an outraged of wha is going on in washingn. the american people are upset about it. first of all, the president of the united states sets the tone for the federal government. and when the united states presidents in his state of the

union address denounces the unit states supreme court and our decision which really was a first amendment case first, tha is what it did. it allowed more people to e in . what they did was, they wanted the irs and the sec to come dow on 501c4. so that the president really se the stage and then within weeks a list of left wing people sent a letter to the irs demanding that they do just at, really look closely at all the different conservative groups. the irs is out there doing things that the powers that be don't want them to be. that is what the american peopl have to focus on. it is not about incompetence. lou: it is interesting. the democrats in particular.

the president's administration, suddenl talking about the ambiguity of the law. 501(c)4, the necessity to deal with a tax cut. this is subterfuge. classic pr defense. >> us with their want to do. abolish 501c force.e need to values a little romney manual. bus lot of leather cresses cutaways. let's focus on abolishing the irs and replacing it with a fai tax or a flat tax. andhe american people will be better off without 97,000 irs agents. they could be used on the border .

lou: i think we can all agree the internal revenue service ha to have a very, very strong audit. we have to have one that goes all the way to this -- the leadersf this a ministration, who ordered what and wind. >> wave to write to the fifth amendment a defense. as a former chief investigator of that committee, i'd help people in contempt. the senate and house. what you have to do is get to thfull house and hold them in contempt of congress whic is the only way you will get testimony out of her. lou: you will talk about that very issue, the man who raised the issue today. it is great to see you. back quicklyand looking great. delighted to have you back.

>> that you very much. lou: you will talk with the sand . coming up peroraon reform headed to the full senate floor. senator jeff sessions does not think so next. the boys used double miles from their capital one venture card to fly home for the big family reunion. you must be garth's father? hello. mother. mother! traveling is easy with the venture card because you can fly airline anytime. two words. double miles! this guy can act. wanna play dodge rock? oh, you guys! and with double miles you can actuay use, you never miss the fun. beard growing conte and go! ♪ win! what's in your wallet?

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is our business. welcome to the new buffalo. welcome to the newuffalo. welcome to the new buffalo. new york state is throwing out the old rule book to give your business a new edge, the edge you can only t in new york state. to grow our start your business, visit thenewny.com ♪ lou: they gang of eight emigration bill was voted out o @%mmittee last night in the judiciary committee voting to approve the measure. >> i will. i will prepare. lou: yes, we can. breaking as three republican senators joined the democrats o

the committee. bad for workers, taxpayers, an american safety. numerous others including armed services. great to have you with this you have fought a long and hard battle against this legislation in the dow moves to the floor. in your opinion it will succeed or fail, which is it? >> we have to depend on the american people to pay attentio to the facts. what we need to know is that this would legalize over the next ten years 30 million people , about three times will we would normally legalize. it well hammer working americans . far, fartooany low-skill workers that will take jobs and

wages that people unemployed an underemployed right now. it will add trillions to the long-term financial cost of the et -- united states treasury from welfare and oer benefits. the law's first -- law enforcement officers it will no work. it will ke things work. it will threaten the national security. when need to make this legal system better. that bill just does not do it. lou: suggesting that there is something darwinian -- darwinia in all of this. they don't have the energy or care to defend its borders, to

claim its sovereignty for its citizens and the result is actually, if you will, a foregone conclusion. the destiny of the nation is in the hands of a new generatn. howdy reacts to ? >> i think we need to ask some questis along th line. who is the congress representing ? i jt saw a bullet that said 800 people spent the night for five days and nights in queens waiting for job. i saw something in philadelphia they expected a thousand people that had a conviction on their record for jobs and,000 people showed up. ople are looking for work in america. that is who we owe our loyalty to first. we need to be helping your people get work, get off welfare , enough food stamps, get out there and have that independence, take careof the

family and have the time and health care. that is not happening, and we just cannot solve this many new workers. the will to stand up and articulate that. lou: it is strange, senator, that night, we talked many times, that mccain kennedy or kennedy mccain legislation of that era. here we are talking seven, six years later. the answer still isn't there. we have the heritage report. there is a great divide among conservatives. we don't know amore aboutho the people are whh are in this country illegally. we don't ow anymore about the demography.

neither side, not those that seek to secure the border into managed care emigration as well as those who seek to open the borders, amnesty, neithe side has e intellectual rigor of knowing what we're talking about . we don't know what it will cost a new will be in the country when it is said and done. we don't know what the effect will be on our borders some of the effect yesterday because w know for a fact half of the people coming across the border are notapprehended. we have -- it is just extraordinary, an issue that ha persisted without the benefit, frankly, ofremendous research and knowledge on the part of th senators to represent us, the congressman and the presidents. >> it s remarkable. asked last week and yterday.

therime pressure of the bill how many people would be legalized. he won't say. they will not even sayhow many people are going to be covered. how can we pass a major reform of we don't understand that? and no study has been done and the economic it's. just how many workers we reall need for. the truth is, civil-rights commission memrs have said that we have a surplus of low-skilled labor. that is to we need to be gettin into work and o of dependency. so i am really relieved that there is way too little thought in such as serious piece of legislation. lou: i want to say, i know you have been the focus of numerous attacks. i just want to share some of th language. quickly. we are out of time. i want the audience to know. you presented your view. you have been in opposition to this legislation. you have done so honorably and

forthrightly. the washington post attacking you, i have to say, he begins b saying, not since geoeorge wall has a and alabama in been a taken as passionate the stand for a lost cause as the one jf sessions is taking now. and then i get this terrible sensation that he was trying to make a different point and one that probably is not too flattering to have. he said that he shouted in his trademark twang the wi sevener , the petulant to alabama and, the only audible note came from

>> we will try to tell the trut about it and the american peopl will convey to their representatives what they thin >> absolutely. ank you. center jeff sessions. lou: and angry pre turns on the attorney general holder for violations of first amendment rights. former justice department attorney tells us ether or not the attorney general can withstand yet another controversy. ♪ man ] on december 17, 03, the wright brothers became the first in flight. [ goodall ] i think the most amazing thing is how like us these chimpanzees are. [ laughing ] [ woman ] can you hear me? and you hear your voice? oh, it's exciting! [ man ] touchdown confirmed. we're safe on mars. [ cheers and applause ]

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it's delicious. so now we've turned her toffee into a business. my goal was to take an idea and make it happen. i'm janet long and i formed my toffee company through legalzoom. never really thought i would make money doing what i love. [ robert ] we created legalzoom to help people start their business and launch their dreams. go to legalzoom.com today and make your business dream a reality. at legalzoom.com we put the law on your side. lou: the president today reaffirmed his support and nt ty confidence in attorney-general eric holder despite concerns g over the justice department's seizure of the associated press

reporters and editors phone uest records.n our next gue served in the obama justice department and has subpoenaed records from a news r organization and those share part of that with us tonight.iec joining us is christian adams, s former u.s. department of ght, j justice attorney, author of the book and justice. good to have you with us.oo >> thank you. lou: let's turn to first what has happened here.l the internal revenue service tht site is about to become an even to bcandal because of what becae the administration apparently tried to do which was to ignore the fact that the woman who led that tax-exempt division was, i fact, left in place at, of all departments, the affordability -- the affordable carr unit tha will be managing 16,500 irs agents added his support the individual mandate and obamacar itself. i it could not get much wor for r that one small unit, could it?

>> probably not. this is an administration that u knows how to use power and lovet it.bl ide they put their most reliable, ideological, seasoned career bureaucrats into the most ar important places, and that is was happening in health care act . lou: this may, in fact, be the s ath nail for affordable care art because there is no trust in ovm this government right now, not i in any court, this homeland o security, the state department, %-loud., treasury for crying ou this is outrageous. >> what happened with the irs in frightening. to it is h not supposed to hapn in ha america have theve powerful ring of a government like the address attackg people because their beliefsse, because they y believe in liberty this government was attacking them,ag singling them out, asking for m, what books they read. t

this is the most outrageous sor of stuff that is never supposed to happen as a country.id lou: president obama-- as i watched and liened to them, litelly stunned as he talked about going to senator schumer o to restart the legislation, then shield law, the effect of whichh would be is asking she were to injuries legislation that, if passed and signed by him caledo protect journalists from his en. justice department's. this is outrageous and so zarr bizarre. >> well, there is no there i accountability. this is a situation where the justice department issued these insanely over broad subpoenas. insanely over broad investigations of a news organization. then they could have done

yet,ing much more limited than what they did. what they did is in keeping witr their loss of power.lo lou: a i said, you, while serving in the obama justice departmenn had to subpoena a 3b news organizztion. compare the experience for various reasons you cannot divulge the name of a large his organization. what was your experience, how tw limited was it?s one will the differences?hatus >> this was one of the most . an careful things the justice o g department can do, and then is to use the power to go after a news organization. they're very clear on the you he regulations and guidelines.ir you have to try to work it out.t you have to try to negotiate a resolution and use the least s,t intrusive means, and most of alr , you have to have the attorney general personally sig off on your request, which she did for me. this justice department scraps all of this.y they don'have the ey

attorney-general sign-off. l they don't use the least use t restrictive means. use the most restrictive means and cast a gigantic neton, it i. lou: and in terms of fghting, you were also audited. >> yea %-least your political views, ad collusion with this highly policized administration. is this administration political orgization this has now taken control of a federal government that -- there a day its seems tha this fedal government circumstance is attacking values, traditions and laws of this country and our citizens, as if they are warring on citens acss the board, in this

government. >> these are the people that founders feared, i saw it happening up close when i worked inustice department, the attitude toward government is a perk of power, you impose your rld view the country. and now america starting to see it. and that is hardly vinditing it is very disappointing but, these scandals, ap, a irs this is what these peoplere about, this isot mismanage am this is a muscular ideology that w dennis: we appreciate you being with us. please come back soon. coming up next, the obama irs admits wwongdoinn. but they will not say who was responsible forargeting conservative groups. the "a-team" unveils obama credibility

the one a growing number of labor unions turning on obamacare. among them is the united workers international. they are worried now about the impact of obamacare. also the united orkers is another grup that is calling for the repeal of obamacare. the 1.4 million member union that is calling for changes in obamacare. joining us now is the "a-team." analyst lis wiehl and hank sheinkopf and senior editor john fund. lis wiehl, let me start with you. lois lerner will be before the

house oversight committee. >> absolutely. yodon't take the fifth amendment unless you think you've done somethinwrong. they won't advise you to that unless you have a problem. >> the plans were thwarted and delayed. the donors were scar off. lou: here's what it meant for the election. >> there were voter suppression charges in the last election. ey suppress the vote. they supprs the tea party, they suppressed get out the vote

efforts, all kinds of groups that would have involved this. that may have played a role for the outcome of that very close election. can we also attach to that the fact that the story did not come out, and it's pretty clear that the inspector general's report was slow, if i can be very gentle about it. >> this is interference in

american politics that is all well and good. to the irs is explaining tax exemption. >> a coalition passholder test. clearly it was harassment after seven years. if this went on for that long, it should have been investing somebodies nose on it. i am speaking metaphorically. because this is just ridiculous, the grown menand women who are committiting themselves be treated this way by any agency of the federal government. that is what i don't quite comprehend. but there is a lot i don't comprehend. >> there is enough stuff here.

>> i'm just going to go to a commercial break. [laughter] >> we're also going to find out what is going on in bengha and why. and we now have testimony from two different department officials fore the armed services committee of the house and what they revealed today. it is indeed remarkable. we will have that with the18 in we will have that with the18 in just all stations come over to missioa for a final go. this is for real this time. step seven point two one two. rify and lock. command is locked. five seconds. three, two, one. standing by for capture. the most innovative software on the plet... dragon is ptured is connecting today's leading companies to places beyond it.

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...amelia... neil and buzz: for teaching us that you can't create the future... by clinging to the past. and with that: you're history. instead of looking behind... delta is looking beyond. 80 thousand of us investing billions... in everything from the best experiences below... to the finest comforts above. we're not simply saluting history... we're making it. >> we are going to turn to benghazi and most americans surveyed the most recent fox poll. they said that benghazi is a cover-up by this administration

ambassador stevens withdrew a force of 20 million before the attack. one month before the attack. on the 18th of august. >> they are in benghazi. they have chand the

relationship with the defense strategy,. lou: wireless christopher stevens in benghazi? to well, they are whistleblowers that are going to come forward. let's just say that it was a national security outpost. i think a lot of this was conducted outside of the state department and defense department.

when the white house on sunday said that we can have in a relevant situation, but they won't give you a imeline with the president was up to. why was that directive ignored. >> [inaudible] lou: hank, what you haveto say? >> let's face it, folks. why don't you call the white house? congress has tried for eight months. that s your customary standard. you know very well that it is at th prerogative of this

president. >> how many others were there? lou: the fact is the pattern that each one of these offenses are aimed against our traditional form of government.

i thank you all for being here. lis wiehl, hankn. that will do it. we will see you tomorrow. ♪ john: what do you know about gasoline? zero oil companies? >> wait too much. john: i am told at the mall wil help. >> a new hero is rising. saving our future. john it does increase smiling. >> you canadd miles. john: a lot of myths. that is our show tonight ♪ and now john stossel. [alause]