good night from w york. neil: it is time to tell our thoughts. welcome, i am neil cavuto. here's how bad the scandalous are getting. er holder is investing himself. he is revealing how his justice department went about targeting ap and fox news reporters even though we now know it was eric holder himself okay targeting our collie, james rosen.

too much time has been wasted on stories that just don't add up with whistleblowers that are itching to talk. reportedly they are lining up. i asked a few questions.

if we are talking about the window,. makes sense to have people coming in, only interested in getting through what happens in conducting them with a full and fast and impartial investigation neil: we have talkedo them on and off the record. it seems like ken starr went on a witchhunt, exploring things that went way beyond and we

political witchhunt. >> when you say giving me independent counsel, you have the ability to do your own investigation. now you're giving up power the power and you have to sit back and wait for the result but i'm going to do my investigation. a special prosecutor is doing his or her in thing. the irs and the justice department. many are gting equally torque.about health and human services paper public health care law which could

be multiple prosecutor needs. would you see that ever happening? >> you would see that this starts with a club of documents. >> i could not even imagine mechanically. they fear that initially going after the irs, and what happened, it will naturally slip into the justice department. it distills over with and unbending hit.

>> i would make sense to bring in one independent counsel to do one job at one time. if you really are not interested in the truth, but you are only interested in pointing fingers and saying, you are the right and the wrong, everyone decides in the sandbox. you feel good about he process and know that it it's really about the truth and not aboutt3 politis. neil: you have multiple answers, but you do it so brilliantly.

neil: back to ben stein. who knew what and when. let's talk about this again. i'm sure that you have been peppered by questions by so many. i will be the latest to chat out this with you. what do you think? >> it is like waterge, very much. we have a president that his is caught with his pants down, doing all kinds of bad things in th adminnstration. there is fox and a few internet sites, either way,,it doesn't matter. it is not going to cost him his job, he's not going to have to resign. neil: do think that that will

stay? >> oh, absolutely. unless they turn up investigation. they will lay down the laws for obama. neil: this is what happens in government. you take big leagues. he gets to gigantic. >> this is not that case. in this case, we knew that the cincinnatiffice was targeting political groups done a lot it

is known in dodd-frank in the white house. the irs is also targeting antiabortion rights. and they are also pestering and harassing them and that is a big part of the story. you are never going to see that in "the new york times." never, never, never. neil: one thing i always wonder is after watergate. those who never again get to the abuses, we are avenging on enemies. >> okay. neil: i'm thing that happen again. >> of course it will happen

again. of course it will happen. the government is made up of very ordinary people with all the ordinary emotions that human beings have. many of the emotions are revenge. neil: barack obama doess't hav to say or do aything. that in and of itself is an inevitability. you think you're doing the president's bidding without them telling you to. for all we know, they are very close and these are smart enough things to figure out. we don't know what he is telling

him. mr. eric holder is a hyper partisan guy. i am wondering as we had the secretary of the treasury, e shall see. neil: it is always good to have you, my friend. >> it is an honor, sir. neil: is the government giving a reason why it happened? are bureaucrats finally out of control? even some top democrats are gearing up. maybe you should start learning about that. then how abercrombie and fitch is pushing for the same bottom.

[ woman ] for david and kelly, a playful thought... how long before he goes to college? [ woman ] ...became a real question. are we ready to pay for college? [ woman ] so they came to see me and we talked about ways to manage their money and savfor college that fit their situation. so when little david -- well, not-so-little david was ready to go to college, his parents were ready, too. we did it. [ female announcer ] let's talk about smarter ways to manage and save your money. when people talk, great things happen. wells fargo. together we'll go far. ♪ [ male announcer ] every car we build must make adrenaline pump and pulses quicken. ♪ to help you not just to stay alive... but feel alive. e c-class is no exception. it's a mercedes-benz, throh and through.

see your authorized mercedes-benz dealer for exceptional offers through mercedes-benz financial services.

neil: the scandals are stacking up like trains on an airport runway. we have david have lunch on this growing problem. as well as katie pavlich. td, what you think of this? >> are longtime you have big government proponents saying that the government works for the people. we are seeing with scandals in government ways that the government is expensive and most importantly, it meanthat big government is you can't hold anyone accountable for bad decisions made in government. there is no reason why we need bloated federal government programs.

>> now that we have this information we learned about, the amount of $50,000, i mean, this is part of big govement. this is reallabout an administration that is not being transparent. a promise that they would be the most transparent administratn in history. neil: let's say the administrati didn't have any direct ties to the white house. but this was some activity on the part of overzealous agents, maybe beyond the office involved. but that it is here, the dimensions speak to how big the irs has gotten and now the irs is taking control of enforcing the health care law. it shows it has gotten out of control. and that is the underlying problem. >> well, i do not agee with the premise. we do not have a growing problem, but we have a growing problem. it is too big, it is too complicated. it becomes not a logical conversation about what we do

about it. the people against government want to get rid of it. that is not a particularly good solution. >> before the irs agents take control of health care, let's get this under control. >> my only point is that this isn't new, there are not scandals piling up. >> you have the justice department,. >> they are behaving badly, they

should speak to those in the firr. neil: katie, there is a multiple feeling going on here. >> yes, this is absolutely having to do with big government and i want to push back that we want to get rid of government. the fact is they government does not work. we have seen this with the irs. we have seen this with obamacare. we have seen i with medicare, medicaid, every civil sector in the government. education. the fact is that big government is bad government. >> you are not describing government. >> you are not describing government, yes, i am. it is a new problem. >> okay, let's ring our next guestin.

we should slow down and get to the bottom of this. there will be subpoena powers that will occur if you report the facts. especially they don't report having us. you think that big government is the perfect example and it iso blamfor everything. we have a grievous problem. most of it is local government.

>> i am sick of docrats saying that it doesn't really matter. it doesn't matter. the irs is using all the power they have the fact is that the irs has a very powerful agency in the federal government. and it was specifically targeting groups for political purposes. and now the administration is saying i have to tell you that

this is how we feel. but having said all that, i think he gets back to the basic notion it is not my cotract. but i think that that is built into a lot of this. @% think that the bigger government gets a bigger institution and they are riiht for this. it is a very big drop in the bucket. >> i thought that was a very effective video. neil: the one guy lookedvery much like this. >> it goes with a larger problem.

this includes not living long and not prospering. neil: okay, we will have you back in a little bit. would you pay twice as much to give this guy what e is demanding? your conscience or you're thank you orville and wilbur... ...amelia... neil and buzz: for teaching us that you can't create the future... by clinging to the past. and with that: you're history. instead of looking behind... delta is looking beyond. 80 thousand of us investing billions... in everything from the best experiences below... to the finest comforts above. we're not simply saluting history... we're making it. at bny mellon, our business is investments. managing them, moving them, making them work. we oversee 20% of the world's financial assets.

and at gives us scale and insight no o else s. investment management combined with investment servicing. bringing the power of investments to people's lives. invested in the world. bny mellon. if you've got it, you know how hard it can be to breathe and man, you know how that feels. copd includes emphysema and chronic bronchitis. spiriva is a once-daily inhaled copd maintenance treatment that helps open my obstructed airways for a full 24 hours. you know, spiriva helps me breathe easier. spiriva handihaler tiotropium bromide inhalation powder does not replace fast-acting inhalers for sudden symptoms. tell your doctor if you have kidney problems, glaucoma, trouble urinating, or an enlarged prostate. these may worsen with spiriva. discuss all medicines you take, even eye drops. stop taking spiriva and seek immediate medical help if your breathing suddenly worsens, your throat or tongue swells, you get hives, vision changes or eye pain, or problems passing urine.

other side effects include dry mouth and constipation. nothing can rerse copd. spiriva helps me breathe better. don't wait to ask your doctor about spiriva.

neil: young young and restless and apparently hungry. very hungry. to hear mcdona's tell us that millennial eat. those 19 years old to 34 years old really like to eat fast food. but they mix their cravings for social justice. if they think that you take advantage of your workers, they won't take adantage of your sport you're a wal-mart or a

restaurant. mcdonald's is trying to get ahead of us. what do you think that your generation would pay more for a burger and go to a place that doesn't pay its workers enough to get paid $8.20 an hour and they want $15. well, we had 7.5% unemployment right now. >> a lot of them make the case

and are somehow taken advantage of in that it's not fair or right. you say that they can discern some differences? >> well, i think so. i think when you have is, that, that is what drives people to your store. if you leave these protests, minimum wage, whatever they are protesting about, that is not social justice. me and us and consumers. a lot of folks will pay a little bit more, they thnk. a little bit more to make sure

that workers are treated well. i think that most people are not in a livable wage. these numbers are at an a-time low. young millennialist don't like unions either. the reason why did they realize that they may end up like the hostess bakery unit, which ended up leaving all of their members unemployed at. >> the rty little secret if you've never eaten there, that right? [laughter] neil: i like the plague along. michelle, is so great to see you. have a great weekend. well, we already know. is this china's way of going to ♪

if you have high cholesterol, here's some information that may be worth lookingnto. in a clinical trial versus lipitor, crestor got more high-risk patients' bad cholesterol to a goal of der 100. getting to goal is important, especially if you have high cholesterol plus any of these risk factors because you could be at increased risk for plaque buildup in your arteries over time. and that's why when diet and exercise alone aren't enough to lower cholesterol i prescribe crestor. [ female announr ] crestor is not right for everyone. like people with liver disease

or women who are nursing, pregnant or may become pregnant. tell your doctor about other medicines you're taking. call your doctor right away if you have muscle pain or weakness, feel unusually tired, have loss of appetite, upper belly pain, dark urine or yellowing of skin or eyes. these could be signs of rare but serious side effects. is your cholesterolt goal? ask your doctor about crestor. [ female announcer ] if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help.

♪ neil: hacking our cmputers to get our deepest militar screets, blatantly stealing apple patents to capitalize on top technology secrets, and doing this while funding our floating debt, which is hardly a secret. connect them is it china's way of winning a war without launching a single missile? we thought of china back ward. to the retired general who says we have it wrorng. china's looking at chilling

version of warfare going forward. it is interesting, general,nay they have on so much without so much as one physical altercation. >> yeah,ou know, it goes to the great chinese military thrists sun su whose principle of war is to win by not fighting. the chiese have been disciples of the art of war for 3,000 years. it's not new, it's just done with computers rather than their traditional forms of espionage. look, the chinese want two things. number one, they want military secrets, and number two, they want intellectual property they can use to gain economic advantage and to gain weapons building advantage without having to invest in technology. as fars chinese are concerned, this makes perfectceps. they know they will not go to war in th united states over an island in the south china sea, but in a way, at least to the

chinese mind set, they really already are at war with us. neil: they discovered as well that money talks. we, as a country in their debt, we're always op defense. nevernipped the fact that guys like you they need us as much, if not more than we need them. we buy their junk as it is. we are always on defense. they knowthat. they have our number; right? >> what's interesting is i was in china a ago, and one of the tings they found interesting was the method reagan used to take down the soviet union, and the pla' nior leadership said we are so fascinated with the genius of the american people in their ability to defeat the sovet union dflecting spending and beating them at their own game, military technology, and we think that's fascinating, and what you see, at, now, ten years on?

it's a physical manifestation of thoughts they had since the beginning of the 1990s, neil. neil: general, you're far more well adversed in military history than i'll b. usually, you come to blows. when there's a change in power, there's a military shall feel or altercation or war. i just cannot imagine this country going quietly into the night or then a new power emerging, and we just sort of wimply fall by the side, but could it be that way? >> well, you know, nuclear weapons changed everything. neil: true. >> it led the world into a new a where you defeat the united states one of two ways, terrorism, and you can use war in the shadows, you can use economic warfre, soft warfare, defeat your opponents by forcing him to spend himself or stealing a secret and beating him at his own technological game, but both

of these are done bloodlessly. when they got nuclear weapons, big scale warfare is off the table, but that does not mean our confrontation with china is any easier in the future, neil. neil: amazing, general, thank you. >> thank you, neil. neil: meanwhile, j-lo, please, say it ain't so. you are stunning, and you don't have to say a thing, but did you hear about the ceo of abercromb abercrombie and fitch? you will never shop at tha store again. again. we went out and asked people a simple question: how old is the oldest person you've known? we gave people a sticker and had them show us. we learned a lot of us have known someone who's lived well into their 90s. and that's a great thing.

but even though we're living longer, one thing that hasn't changed much is the official retirement age. ♪ the question is how do you make sure you have the money you need to enjoy all of these years. ♪ otherworldly things. but there are some things i've never seen before. this ge jet engine can understand 5,000 data samples per second. which is good for business. because planes use less fuel, spend less time on the ground and more time in the air. suddenly, faraway places don't seem so...r away. ♪ vo: ta friend under water is end usomething completely different. suddenly, faraway places don't seem so...r away. i met a turtle friend today so,

you don't get that very often. it seemed like it was more than happy to have us in his home. so beaiful. avo: more travel. more options. more pernal. whatever you're loing for expedia has more wayays to hep you find yours. it's delicious. so now we've turned her ffee into a business. my goal was to take an idea and make it happen. i'm janet long and i formed my toffee company through legalzoo never really thought i would make money doing what i love. [ robert ] we created legalzoom to help people start their business and launch their dreams. go to legalzoom.com today and make your business dream a reality. at legalzoomom we put the law on your side. neil: abercrombie be serious,

the guy whose stores are nope for chiz -- chic led models saying larger people shouldn't shop there, and shoppers of all sizes saying, you know where you can go? he overred a semiapologizes, revenue down, outlook work. should he be blitz out on his ass? >> i understand he's trying to defend the brand, putting a size 12 brand in the mouth. it's one thing to target specific customers, but another to exclude them. >> you know, really the mistake made was saying what she was thinking and pay traps of the store are thinking he just put to words what a lot of folks think. u don't look like the models, then you don't go in there. >> neil, yeah, but i mean, you proved it's possible to be obese and successful -- neil: i'm not obese, right now, i'm angry, young man, but

continue the train of thought. >> abf has a brand. w want to look like the models in the magazines and whtnot, but hey have to be not just cool, but approachable. most people are heavier than the 70-pound waist in the catalog and alienate customers, i think, is ire representable damming to the brand. neil: stating the obvious, i mean, supposed to be hip and cool and everybody aspired to that, but what they did is just hurt the bran by appearing like the elitist ?oots they are, and even aong the core audience; right? >> well, i think so. you know, what's ironic to me, is, yes, we have a problem with chronic obesity in the country, adjusting insurance mortality tables to airline seats. there was a missed opportunity here. he could have said, let's take it and help america get healthy to do this together. i don't know how to put the spin

on it, i'm not a pr expert, but he didn't get council on this. neil: he did not. >> showing up in the stock. neil: indeed. >> roadway tairs doing well, but his stock in the late 1990s. neil: you two a thin, and who is the idiot who came up with "morbidly obse," anyway, issue two, a retail ceo who gets it and wants to get to the bottom of it. sear's new boss says stop blaming the economy for poor sales, but to look in the mirror, work your butts off, and turn the sales around. >> hat is taking speedometer -- responsibility for one's action. a lot of the political leaders, neil, the ceo of sears gets it, not just talking about taking responsibility, but putting money where his mouth is owning the maority share of the company's share. he's putting not just the reputation on the line, but the money as well. that's called taking responsibility. neil: keth, it's not moving the

needle yet for the store, but maybe that attitude wil? >> well, i hope so. you know, i would have liked the statement better if he said the buck starts with me so let's lead by example, but, you know, that's neither hereor there. they have problems with the real estate. i think the stock price reflects that. in this economy, i'm not sure -- i have lips today -- i don't know he'll get out of this. neil: do you think sears, the jcpenney problem, losing adentty, and workers, in general, many of the bitch and complain, but maybe that's the problem? people don't relate or understand maybe it's the tools, is it consumer products -- >> well, yeah. how do you take a coany th's very old and has no identity, being everything to everybody for so long. it's not ma and pa kettle on the farm. this is the internet age everything available to

everybody 4/7. >> we were worried they would serve mr. ed on our plates. be more worry they seek rubs alcohol in the drinks. apparently, that was the case at some restaurants including a tgif's that reportedly swapped out scotch with rubbing alcohol. you have to be plowed not to notice that. what do you think of it >> >> well, i'm the most staunch defender of business, but what is this? watering down the wine, i mean, this is fraud. when companies, they do the brand, neil. i'm not going to sing that but the audience knows it, and it is fraud, and, you know, it really not only hurts people in terms of the pocketbooks, but causes a great health risk as well, they get one drink, but it's dish water. terrible example and ruins reputation of all businessmen when folks engage in this. neil: celt, first of all, it's

not as if rubbing acoh is similar to scotch. it's not like -- not quite; right? >> right! neil: how do you feel about this? this is really defeat on a criminal scale here. >> not just deceit, but fraud, criminal activity, negligence, medical liability, but this speaks to me, are things really so bad in small busiss america or even middle business america that they are willing to sell their ethics down the road and do this voluntarily? i mean, i have to question the management and ownership here. the fact they claim they didn't know it was going on when margi showed it, they account for every bottle and every ounce of alcohol in a restaurant like that. stunned this is just coming to light. il: what happened is as soon as we get word, the horse meat thing, and the meatballs are horse meat, and i just thought they sold purpose --

furniture, but they have other problemshat crop up; right? >> it coms from the eceit. however much money bars think they saved in serving bad liquor instead of the good stuff, they more than pissed that away. that's not going to be replaced. lying is not just bad morally, but bad business. this is an exame. neil: we have half price drinks with rubbing alcohol. you know. >> exactly. you'll be cleaner when you finish. neil: brilliant line. dpies, thank you very much. meanwhile, reuniting. hear about this? well, not these guys. these guys. who wins? ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] how do you engeer a true automotive breakthrough? ♪

you give it bold styling, unsurpassed luxury and nearly 1,000 improvements. the redesigned 2013 glk. see your authorized mercedes-benz dealer for exceptional offers through mercedes-benz financial services. ...amelia... neil and buzz: for teaching us that you can't create the future... by clinging to the past. and with that: you're history. instead of looking behind... delta is looking beyond. 80 thousand of us investing billions... in everything from the best experiences below... to the finest comforts above. we're not simply saluting history... we're making it.

neil: lost weight, and now gaining clout. with democrats, the state of new jersey, 61% of whom like republican governor christie. with president obama visiting him again on tuesday to sort of take a post-sandy checcup, watch what they say could push governor christie into big re-election territory in a blue state, and maybe all the way to the white house. you know, it's interesting, bob, rather than distance himself from the president, the governor has constently embraced the president. it might alienate conservatives within the pear, but he doesn't seem to care. what's this all about? >> right. no, i hink that's right. this is kind of a little of payback by the president because when the president was up for re-election, christie and obama rked close on sandy relf, and now christie is up, and he's a big favorite to win re-election, and now obama is coming back up to see him. i do think it helps christie

big-time in the short term, and in the long trm, republicans hahave to expand the map. they are hungry for a win, and, sure, this is going to upset the base. it upset the base last year: christie handles questions deafly, and he thinks about the presidency, maybe it's ot 20 # 16, could be, maybe 202, it's on the mind. neil: heargued that, you know, focused on new jers, the reason he didn't runfor president, last go around, he was not ready for that, and it's all about new jersey, new jersey. i'm tinking that if he gets reelected by anything approaching the margin, some of the polls indcate, that would be the digest victory for any governor in new jersey in history, let alone a republican in a very, very blue state. he would almost be impressing upon republicans who might not like him, lookkwhati just did; right? >> yeah, that's right. that i can appeal to democrat

independents something that mitt romney and mccain struggling with against barack obama, and i think that the republican electors going through the evolution of figuring out where are we going, the bottom line is they want to win in 2016. they want to beat hillary clinton. who beats her in 2016? republicans think christie could beat her. kneel bob, you're the first to educate me on the primaries, the one that had romney because he ran to the right, ran back to the middle, always in between and that's going to be a difficult process for someone like christie. what do you think of that? c-span: . -- >> there is. there's going to be problems if he runs. the iowa caucus is difficult because a lot of the bases there, conservatives there, but i think people vote more on personality than policies, and if christie can deal with his weaknesses, and i remember years

back, people said you like collective bargaining, and he aggressively said, look, i love it, i love to get in the union and beat them at the table. it was a good argunt to a supposed weakness, and christie's good at that. that's a skill that mitt romney really did not how a lot on the campaign trail. neil: he is personally appealing, might trump whatever political differences people have. he's his own guy. we'll see how that goes. >> likability so important, neil. neil: i builta career on it, bob. you're right, have a good weekend, thank you very much. >> thanks, neil. neil: what's the difference between lerner and a zombie? nothing, notall, i am dead serious. ♪ [ woman ] for david and kelly, a playful thought... how long before he goes to college? [ woman ] ...became a real question. are we ready to pay for college? [ woman ] so they came to see me and we talked about ways to manage their money and save for college that fit eir situation.

so when little david -- well, not-so-little david was ready to go to college, his parents were ready, too. we did it. [ female announcer ] let's talk about smarter ways to manage and save your money. when people talk, great things happen. wells fargo. together we'll go far. when peopl[growl] great things happen. we used to le with a br. we'd always have to go everywhere with it. get in t front. we drive. it was so embarrasing that we just wanted to say, well, go away. shoo bear.

but we can't really tell bears what to do. moooooommmmmm!!! then one day, it was just gone. mom! [announcer] you are how you sleep. tempur-pedic. neil: now you know, all the zombies, every single one of the zombies, they are government workers. the undead forever sucking off the alive and not so well.

lerner stepped down, but with full pay at the irs. i guess she's doing so as investigating all her government shenanigans targeting nservative groups, but what does it take to terminate, to fire, to get rid of anyone in the government? fcc guys too busy watching porn to chase bad guys stealin millions, bureaucrats in governmentgencies mad up talking points on benghazi to get to the bottom of what happened in benghazi, no one fired. see a pattern he that's over the p? that's what we have on whether any of this is remotely fair. katie? >> well, i'm laughing at the true analogies about zombies and porn, but that's the government and the way it runs, and the fact is, this wk with lerner, we learned that you ca't fire government employees, and not only isshe at the top of the pay scale within the government, but she also is an attorney, has

a protection of a union behind her, and we both know, and evyone in the panel kno, that if she did this in the private sector, she would have been gone five days ago, and the government probably would have launched a probe to investigate her for discrimination in the private sector, but apparently that doesn't go on inside the government. nl: thereis something called due process and i'll get ino it here, we got, you know, we do have a system in place to not, you know, throw someone out on the butt if they have not been implicated. having said that, though, there's many examples in the private sector where something happens under your watc ignorance is a poor defense, and you're out, period. >> you're right, nd, you know, the government should be more like businesses. many states are right-to-work states meaning the employer and employee can leave the employment at any time and we should see that in the government, neil, and, you know, the fact it happened under her

watch, nothing happened to r, refused to testify, it's very concerning. neil: adam, what do you think of this, though, that sometimes we do have to make an example, do we not? if no one is leaving and no one has been so much as reprimended, it begs to question you don't want to heave out someone, and that breeds its own ill-will, doesn it? >> sure. when they do something wrong, they should be fired. if they break the law, they shou be prosecuted. we agree. if we want to have a policy conversation and compe government and the corporate rld which is xtremely difficult and, no, we don't want the government to ru like a corporation in every instaps, but this comes down to an issue of level. mean, people get fired in the government, or, you know, leave quickly under embarrassing situations. i thinkhe general mcchrystal, general petraeus, think of various cabinet members over the years who stepped over the line and got fired.

the question is d we want to fire a senior level bureaucrat or want to ridicule a senior level state department person who may or may not have done anything wrong just because we're all upset about it, and i think the short answer is, no, and the same should be true, by the way -- neil: i disagree, adam. i think the short answer is yes. i'm not saying it's the top guy at any of the agencies, but mre heads should roll under their respective watches that these things happens, and they might not be responsible, but when the best excuse is didn't know what the hell was going on, well, that warrants, i'm sorry, you're history. >> well, and the fact is we've seen that lerner signed off on t allowing these tea party groupsapplying for tax exempt status get that. neil: to be fair, the letters with the signature do not mean she was targeting the groups, but it was denied p on the phone: doesn't mean she didn't know about it, and the argument is out the window, the idea she

knew these groups were applying for the tax exem status saying she didn't know, that creates an often times in the corporate world we hea the ceo or higher ups created aculture of whatever. inside the irsthey created a culture of intimidation and targeting of the groups. lerner did nothing to stop it. didn't show any remorse. neil: she should go? >> absolutely. neil: i don't want you as m boss. i want adam with my boss because i would get away with murder with adam. >> yes, you would. neil: i guess where we get at with this is thats is tougher in government, the example east not withstanding that adam raised, but it is tougher in government see these guys go than it is in the corporate world. now, there might be something to be said of that, due process, all of the above, but i think it just makes those who think a scandal is brewing think more scandalously. >> well, two points here, neil. first, i think many of the examples adam mentioned, hey were asked to resign and

resigned. i don't think they were fired. point two is that the irs because of a law that passed in the late 1990s is able to fire employees and get outf theupon agreements, if they violate what they call the ten deadly sins, and the inspector general, the irs on the hill this week saying it could have happened here. they -- even when they have the authority to fire people, to oor knowledge, they have not yet. >> uh-huh. >> so i think your first point is a really interesting one getting to the difference between a political government official and a career government official, and it's a good thing for our untry that we have a professional bureaucracy, and now, before you jump over me, they are not perfect. i mean, they are deeply flawed, as we all are, but you have a bureaucracy that is protected from political whims. theeason why political people are not fired, the reason they resign, is that everybody understands that the president always has their resignation letter onhis deek so to speak

saying, guess what, 'm accepting you resignation, thank you as very much. that's calledded being firedded. we want the political people to be fired quickly. neil: i'm beginning to extend on that. >> buick roar sighs are protected? neil: when reagan threatened to fire the air traffic controllers atthe time threatening to stke, he said, well, you can't do that, you're vital personnel. it says here you cannot go out on strike. they still threatened he threatened back saying, you do it, we'll fire you. they did. he fired the there was warnings. mr. president, there's a possibility there could be a lot of planes and passengers dying. he dn't care. none of that happened. they were fired, life went on. there was a consequece for an action that they knew there should be a consequence for it. >> that's how it should be. the cuture in government, whether it's at a city level or in the washington, d.c. level is that you move up, and you screw up. as you screw up, you move up.

it doesn't matter what resnsibilities you hve as long as you plead ignorance saying it was not your fault and point to another guy. you will not be fired. in the instance of us protecting bureaucracies from the political whims, the irs case was completely political. the entire targeting of the groups was based on politics so to say they are protected somehow, -- >> no, no. >> the political whims, not true, and talk about firing employees, let's talk about the fact that hussein, the guy who shot up fort hood is still pulling a government paycheck. even though he kill americans on their bases. neil: adam? >> on the political topic, you're changing the subject. if they, you know, played politics and broke -- >> they did. neil: okay, you would fire them as well. in this case, it was blatant, clear, unadulterated, fire. >> investigate it, find facts as soon as pock, and get rid of people.

>> it's just a matter of whn among you guys, just how quickly you act. >> and at what level. >> we agree more than you think. neil: tnk you, all. that'll do ♪ >> tom: here we are memorial day weekend the unofficial kickoff to summer but primarily a time to remember those that have fallen defending other freedoms. on this holiday we wanted to share some of our favorite interviews right here, right now >> tom: david stockman rose to prominence at the head of office management and budget in the reagan administration. he was worried then about the state of nation. but his worries had turned into indictment of our nation's leaders who for deces have been making mistakes to the point where