thank you for joining us. have a great holiday weekend. ♪ ♪ lou: hello, everybody, and than you for being with us. these people are swearing to tell the truth in front of the house oversight committee, although not many americans are expected to believe them, and this woman, lerner, the woman a the center of the ira scandal did the unthinkable for a supposedly public servants. >> i have been advised my counsel to assert my constitutional right not to testify or answer questions related to the subject matter o this hearing. lou: lerner took the fifth and refuse to answer questions afte pleading her case for a series of denials and deflections abou the lawfulness of her actions. do you believe her when she say

she is innocent? >> i have not done anytng wrong. i have not broken any laws. i have not violated any irs rules or regulations, and they have not provided false information to this or any othe congressional committee. some pele will listen that i have done something wrong. i have not. lou: congressmen goudy made it clear that he does not believe her until she is subject hersel to cross-examination by the committee. and the congressman introduced and electric moment into those proceedings when he said that b telling her side of the stories she had given a perfect the man writes. here he is. >> mr. cummings is shot to $5 run this by the court room. he just testified and waved her fifth amendment right to privilege. you will get to tell your side of the story in the not be subjected to cross-examination.

lou: the congressman will join us in moments of talk about the latest in the obama irs scandal. also, among our guests, the man who led opposition tothe gang of eight immigration bill, senator jeff sessions, and we will be talking about the political impact of all of the white house scanls, former senator scott brown. but joining us now, member of the house oversight committee, former federal prosecutor. you heard his view of the fact that lerner forfeited her right under the fifth amendment when she played her innocence before the committee. and that is now a subject to be determined. it is great to have you back with this. >> thank you. lou: it is your firm view that she developed which she said suez and the sense, the assertions that she did not

break the law violated any regulations. what do you think the automobile ? >> well, if they apply u.s. versus brown which is the supreme court case on waving your fifth amendment privilege against incrimination, you cannot have it both ways. you cannot he to sale of the things that are exculpatory about you without having to withstand cross-examination. i think the chairman is going over all of h legal remedies tonight. one of which includes -- becaus he did not adjourn, he reid says , bring her back tomorrow. she votes tomorrow, again, as you pointed out, her opening statement, she made a soliloquy about how innocents she was and specifically says she would never let to congress. well, you don't get to just say that without having to answer a few questio about it. if she evokes tomorrow then the chairman and house will have to decide whether or not to hd her in contempt.

immunity is something that we were taught to play in court, but i don't think that will be contemplated, nor should it be. lou: the president of citizens united served on the stand of the house ersight committee. he said that the straightforwar approach here is the decision must be made by a full load of the house as to whether not she is a contempt. >> your reaction? lou: at least three different forms of contents,and i wan to challenge his analis. there are two other forms you can never make a witness talk. you can give them consequences for not talking, but you can never make this person talk. e other alternative, of course

, is to do it --? mr. sherman. refer this for a criminal investigation. the u.s. attorney and others have access to tools that the congressman don't and that is sometimes a good way to it do that as well. lou: former irs commissioner douglas chairman, an acquaintance now, your colleagu says he visited the white house. visit the white house 118 times in 2010 and 2011. i mean, that is standing in and of itself. by itself us suppose it means nothing, but it suggests a cluster relationship but the white house and in the irs commissioner i ever heard, acting or otherwise. >> jimmy jordan did a fantastic job researching that. at the white house re than some of the employees who work at the white house. of course very poor on things h is not want to talk about and

splendid on issues he does want to engage john. he cannot remember what they talk to and whether or not it was targeting the conservative groups or implementation of the affordable care act. he did not make a very compelling witness in my judgment. lou: the committee along with the rest of the house, the focu now be -- i know that there has been a temptation. there is an effort on the part of the administration, the democrats to conflate and numbe of issues, the ambiguity. that sort of thing. tax cut issues. even the chairman of the ways and means wants to talk about reforming th tax cut. with the american people need here is a vast set of answers t really troubling questions in the end to the contact that you committee is examining. will we see that kind of focused

? >> i hope so. one of my colleagues on the other side of the i'll mention the special prosecutor. that was a democrat. i think -- i saw level -- i kno what to say about partisanship, but equal opportunity, outrage that does not exist on most issues. you also heard me ask, can you name a single person who made the decision to target the chairman? here we are years after the decision and there are no names. lou: but -- >> if i were one oyour viewers i would be asking every member of congress for this started, where it is insidious report idea originated. and until we can answer that then we have not done our jobs as members of congress. lou: so far so good. i keep asking. my success rate is not much higher than that. i know that the congressman wil change of that. we thank you for being with us.

>> thank you and have a good night. lou: you, too. coming up, a credibility crisis for the obama lighthouse. the administration accused of abusing the trust of the american people. can americans get the truth out of this administration? former senator scott brown on exactly that question next. [ man ] on decemr 17, 1903, the wright brothers became the first in flight. [ goodall ] i think the most amazing thing is how like us theschimpaees are. [ laughing ] [ woman ] can you hear me? and you hear your voice? oh, it's exciting! [ man ] touchdown confirmed. wee safe on mars. [ cheers and applause ] ♪ hi. [ baby fusng ] ♪

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♪ lou: former senator scott brown says the obama administration has abused the trust of the american people in connection with the irs scandal. joining me now to discuss the political impact of all of thes scandals that are emerging and plaguing this administration is former senator brrwn, now a fox

news contributor. great to have you with us. and the more that we listen to what this administration says the more conscious we year. >> when does that line gets drawn and when did they cross that line and i will tell you what, the rate of free speech, the right of the press to do their jobs as a cck and balance that is needed in government. other than that sometimes there is that check and balance. the getting closer. i say it before and again. what happened with parasites have to go.

try to reestablish that just of the american people. the justice department and holder should have been fired a long time ago. very few people in congress tha have any faith in his authority. fast and furious, trying to hav ksm tried in new york city, we are hearing on and on and on. when does it stop? lou: the attorney-general turning to the justice department scandal testified before congress saying that he could not imagi such a thing as by on the press when precisely this attorneyeneral is doing precisely what he was nine. >> if he did he should be fired in defeated not nobody should b fired. all the people work for him, an he works for theresident. it has been a clear and convincing, almost a bullying

and chilling effect on entities individual citizens, news gathering agencies, individuals and it is wrong. it is not what our country is all about. as i said, he should have been fired a long time ago. it is unacceptable. lou: the justice department scandal the silence was deafening fromhe flo of the state's when they should have been joined in this administration and bring powerful and critical judgments to bear against you. now we find that our colleagues had been surveiled. in the case of james rosen, someone in the justice department named him as a criminal co-conspirator waste i

-- this person not to be in jai for lying, in my opinion, right now. what is your reaction? this is worsening by the week. plexuses america, correct? we do live in america. listen. i am dumbfounded as to how people a sell in their jobs. take a wide swath and go after the ap and have this blanket inquiry preparation, if it was more specific instance and ther was a real national surity risk would say, okay, that is different, that is not the case. to label a journalist as a co-conspirator is very serious. that needs to obviously be held accountable. i am shocked that every news agency whether it is conservative, and urged a more liberal is not going after the justice department of filing th opprobrium lawsuits to make sur that this and other things like

this never happen again. lou: this administration is quickly making it clear, are they not, that there is a year to assail the first amendment a they are the second. people thought there would be limits and there appear to be none. your thoughts as we wrap up? >> very simple. we, as american citizens, have to looout for our rights and interest. now we have an executive branch and others who worked for the executive branch shirking their authority and taking it a step too far, need to stand up as americans and pushed back because that comes to the media individual citizens, the file lawsuits, pushed back by gettin these people out of office and demandin redress and accountability. full, open, and become an transparent investigation into each and every one of these matters. lou: thank you very much. >> thank you. lou: the irs abused its public

trust. the president of citizens unite talks out about clear governmen overreach. thank you orville and wilbur... ...a. neil and buzz: for teaching us that you can't create the future... by clinging to the past. and with that: you're history. instead of looking behind... delta is looking beyond. 80 thousand of us investing billions... in everything from the best experiences below... to the finest comforts above. we're not simply saluting history... we're making it.

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lou: our next guest says president obama in essence a issued marching orders to democrats in his administration by attacking the supreme court decision non-citizens united in his 2010 state of the union address. joining us tonight is the president of citizens united. it is great to have you with us. when you say, in essence, what do you mean? >> well, first of all, thank yo for having me. this is ssch a outraged of what is going on in washington. the american people are upset about it. first of all, the president of e united states sets the tone for the federal government. and when the united states presidents in his state of the

union address denounces the united states supreme court and our decision which really was a first amendment case first, tha is what it did. it allowed more people to participate in the process. what they did was, they wanted the irs and the sec to come dow on 501c4. so that the president really se the stage and then within weeks a list of left wing people sent a letter to the irs demanding that they do just that, really look closely at all the different conservative groups. the irs is out there doing things that the powers that be don't want them to be. that is what the american peopl have to focus on. it is not about incompetence. lou: it is interesting. the democrats in particular.

the president's administration, suddenly talking about the ambiguity of the law. 1(c)4, the necessity to deal with a tax cut. this is subterfuge. classic pr defense. >> us with their want to do. we will talk but the need to abolish 501c force. values a little romney manual. bus lot of leather cresses cutaways. let's focus on abolishing the irs and replacing it with a fai tax or a flat tax. and the american people will be better off without 97,000 irs agen. they could be used on the border .

lou: i think we can all agree r to have a very, very strong audit. we have to have one that goes all the way to this -- the leaders of this a ministration, who ordered what and wind. >> wave to write to the fifth amendment a defense. as a former chief investigator of that committee, i'd help people in contempt. the senate and house. what you have to do is get to the full house and hold them in contempt of congress which is the only way you wilget testimony out of her. lou: you will talk about that very issue, the man who raised the issutoday. it is great to see you. back quickly and looking great. delighted to have you back.

>> that you very much. lou: you will talk with the sand . coming up peroration reform headed to the full senate floor. senator jeff sessions does not think so next. if you've got it, you know how hard it can be to breathe and man, you know how that feels. copd includes emphysema and chronic bronchitis. spiriva is a once-daily inhaled copd maintenance treatment that helps open my obstructed airways for a full 24 hours. you know, spiriva helps me breathe easier. spiriva handihaler tiotropium bromide inhalation powder does not replace fast-acting inhalers for sudden symptoms. tell your doctor if you have kidney problems, glaucoma, trouble urinating, or an enlarged prostate. these may worsen with spiriva. discuss all medicines you take, even eye drops. stop taking spiriva and seek immediate medical help if your breathing suddenly worsens, your throat or tongue swells, you get hives, vision changes

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♪ lou: they gang of eight emigration bill was voted out o @%mmittee last nht in the judiciary committee voting to approve the measure. >> i will. i will prepare. lou: s, we can. breaking as three republican senators joined the democrats o

the committee. bad for workers, taxpayers, an american safety. numero others including armed services. great to have you with this. you have ught a long and hard battle against this legislation in the dow moves to the floor. in your opinion it will succeed or fail, which is it? >> we have to depend on the american people to pay attentio to the facts. what we need to know is that this would legalize over the next ten years 30 million people , about three times will we would normally legalize. it well hammer working americans . far, far too many low-skill workers that will take jobs and wages that people unemployed an

underemployed right now. it will add trillions to the long-term financial cost of the feet -- united states treasury from welfare and other benefits. the law's fir -- law enforcement officers it will no work. it will make things work. it will threaten the national security. when need to make this legal system better. that bill just does not do it. lou: suggesting that the is something darwinian -- darwinia in all of this. they don't have the energy or care to defend its borders, to claiitssovereignty for its

citizens and the result is actually, if you will, a foregone conclusion. the destiny of the nation is in the hands of a new generation. howdy reacts to that? >> i think we need to ask some questions along that line. who is the congress representing ? i just saw a bullet that said 800 people spent the night fo five days and nights in queens waiting for job. i saw something in philadelphia they expected a thousand people that had a convictionon their record for jobs and 3,000 peopl showed up. people are looking for work in america. that is who we owe our loyalty to first. we need to be helping your people get work, get off welfare , enough food stamps, get out there and have that independence, take care of the

family and have the time an health re. that is not happening, and we just cannot solve this many new workers. the will to stand up and articulate that. lou: it is strange, senator, that night, we talked many times, that mccain kennedy or kennedy mccain legislation of that era. here we are talking seven, six years later. the answer still isn't there. we have the heritage repo. there is a great divide among conservatives. we don't know anymore about who the people are whh are in this country illegally. we don't know anymore about the demography.

neither side, not those that seek to secure the border into managed care emigration as well as those who seek to open the borders, amnesty, neither sde has the intellectual rir of knowing what we're talking about . we don't know what it will cost a new will be in the country when it is said and done. we don't know what the effect will be onur borders some of the effect yesterday because we know for a fact half of the people coming across the border are not apprehended. we have -- it is just extraordinary, an issue that ha persisted without the benefit, frankly, of tremendous research and knowledge on the part of th senators to represent us, the congressman and the presidents. >> it s remarkable. asked last week and yesterday. the prime pressure of the bill,

how many people would be legalized. he won't say. they will not even say how many people are going to be covered. how can we pass a majoreform of we don't understand th? and no study has been done and the economic it's. just how many workers we reay need for. the truth is, civil-rights commission members haveve said that we have a surplus of low-skilled labor. that is to we need to be gettin into work and off of dependenc so i am really relieved that there is way too little thought in such as serious piece of legislation. lou: i want toay, i know you have been the focus of numerous attacks. i just want to share some of th language. quickly. we are out of time. i want the audience to know. you presented your view. you have been in opposition to is legistion uha donso norabld

fohrigly. the washinon poattackg y, i h toay bens sang, tin g wallace has a and alabaman been a taken as passionate the stand for a lost cause as the one jef sessions is taking now. an then i get this terrible sensation that he was trying to make a different point and one that probably is not too flattering to have. he said that he shouted in his trademark twang the wiry sevener , the petulant to alabama and, the only audible note came from

>> we will try to tell the trut about it and the american peopl will convey to their representatives what they think. >> absolutely. thank you. centereff sessions. lou: and angry press turns on the attorney general holder for violations of first amendment rights. former justice department attorney tells us ether or not the attorney general can withstand yet another controversy. controversy. ♪ are you still sleeping? just wanted to check and make sure that we were on schedule.

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lou: the president today reaffirmed his support and nt ty confidence in attorney-general eric holder despite concerns g over the justice department's seizure of the associated press reporters and editors phone uest

records.n our next guest served in the obama justice department and has subpoenaed records from news r organization and those share part of that with us tonight.iec joining us is christian ads, s former u.s. department of ght, j justice attorney, author of the book and justice. good to have you with us.oo >> thank you. lou: let's turn to first what has happened here.l the internal revenue service tht site is about to become an even to b bigger scandal because of what e the administration apparently tried to do which was to ignore the fact that the woman who led that tax-exempt division was, i fact, left in place at, of all departments, the affordability -- the affordable carr unit tha will be managing 16,500 irs agents added his support the individual mandate and obamacar itself. i it could not get much worse forr that one small unit, could it?

>> probably not. this is an administration that u knows how to use power and lovet it.bl ide they put their most reliable, ideological, seasoned career bureaucrats into the most ar important places, and that is was happening in health care act . lou: this may, in fact, be the s death nail for affordable care t because there is no trust in ovm this government right now, not i in any court, this homeland o security, the state department, %-loud., treasury for crying ou this is outrageous. >> what happened with the irs in frightening. to it is h not supposed to happen ha america to have theve powerful ring of a government like the address attacking people becaus of their beliefsse, because they believe in liberty this government was attacking them, g singling them out, asking for m, what books they read. t

this is the most outrageous sor of stuff that is never supposed to happen as a country.id lou: president obama -- as i watched and liened to them, literally stunned as he talked about going to senator schumer to restart the legislation, then shield law, the effect of whichh would be is asking she were to injuries legislation that, if passed and signed by him caledo protect journalists from his en. justice department's. this is outrageous and so zarr bizarre. >> well, there is no there i accountability. this is a situation where the justice department issued these insanely over broad subpoenas. insanely over broad investigations of a news organization. then they could have done yet,ing much more limited than

what they did. what they did is in keeping witr their loss of power.lo lou: as i said, you, while serving in the obama justice departmenn had to subpoena a 3b news organizztion. compare the experience for various reasons you cannot divulge the name of a large his organization. what was your experience, how tw limited was it?s one will the differences?hatus >> this was one of the most . an careful things the justice o g department can do, and then is to use the power to go after a news organization. they're very clear on the you he regulations and guidelines.ir you have to y to work it out.e t you have to try to negotiate a resolution and use the least s,t intrusive means, and most of alr , you have to have the attorney general personally sig off on your request, which she did for me. this justice department scraps all of this.y they don't have the ey

attorney-general sn-off. l they don't use the least use t restrictive means. use the most restrictive means and cast a gigantic neton, it i. lou: and in terms of frighting, you were also audited. >> yea %-least your political views, ad collusion with this highly policized administration. is this administration political orgization this has now taken control of a federal government that -- there a day its seems tha this fedal government circumstance is attacking values, traditions and laws of this country and our citizens, as if they are warring on citens across the board, in this

government. >> these are the people that founders feared, i saw it haening up close when i worked inustice department, the attide toward government is a perk of power, you imposeour rld view on the country. and now america starting to see it. and that is hardly vinditing it is very disapinting but, these scandals, ap, a irs this is what these peoplere about, this isot mismanage am this is a muscular ideology that w dennis: we appreciate you being with us. please come back soon. coming up next, the oba irs admits wwongdoinn. but they will not say who was responsible for targeting conservative groups. the "a-team" unveils obama credibility thank you orville and wilbur... ...amelia... neil and buzz: for teaching us that you can't create the future...

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the one a growing number of labor unions turning on obamare. among them is the united workers international. they are worried now about the impact of obamacare. also the united workers is another group that is calling for the repeal of obamacare. the 1.4 million member union that is calling for changes in obamacare. joining us now is the "a-team." analyst lis wiehl and hank sheinkopf and senior editor john fund. lis wiehl, let me start with you. lois lerner will be before the

house oversight committee. >> absolutely. you don't take the fifth amendmenunless you think you've done something wrong. they won't advise you to that unless you have a problem. >> the plans were thwarted and delayed. the donors were scared off. lou: here's what it meant for the election. >> there were voter suppression charges in the last election. they suppress the vote. they suppress the tea party, they suppressed get out the vote efforts, all kinds of oups

that would have involved this. that may have played a role for the outcome of that very close election. can wealso attach to th the fact that the story did not come out, and it's pretty clear that the inspector general's report was slow, if i can be very gentle about it. >> this is interference in

american politics that is all well and good. to the irs is explaining tax exemption. >> a coalition passholder test. clearly it was harassment after seven years. if this went on for that long, it should have been investing somebodies nose on it. i am speaking metaphorically. because this is just ridiculous, the grown men and women who are committing themselves to be treated this way by any agency of the federal government. that is what i don't quite comprehend. but there is a lot i don't comprehend. >> there is enough stuff here.

>> i'm just going to go to a commercial break. [laughter] >> we're also going to find out what is going on in benghazi and why. and we now have testimony from two different department officials before the armed services committee of the house and what they revealed today. it is indeed remarkable. we will have that with the 18 in just i'm so glad you called. thank you. we're not in london, are we? no. why? apparently my debit card is. what? i know. don't worry, we have cancelled your old card. great. thank you. in addition to us moitoring your accounts for unusual activity, you could also set up free account alerts. okay. [ female announcer ] at wells fargo we're working around the clock to help protect your money and financial information. here's your temporary card. welcome back. how was london? [ female announcer ] when people talk,

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>> we are going to turn to benghazi and most americans surveyed the most recent fox poll. they said that benghazi is a cover-up by this admintration

ambassador stevens withdrew a force of 20 million before the attack. one month before the attack. on the 18th of august. >> they are in benghazi. they have changed the

relationship with the defense strategy,. lou: wireless christopher stevens in benghazi? to well, they are whistleblowers that are going to come forward. let's just say that it was a national security outpost. i think a lot of this was conducted outside of the state department and defense department.

when the white house on sunday said that we can have in a relevant situation, but they won't give you a timeline with the president was up to. why was that direive ignored. >> [inaudible] lou: hank, hat you have to say? >> let's face it, olks. why don't you call the white hoe? congress has tried for eight months. thatis your customary standard. you know very well that it is at the prerogative of this

president. >> how many others were there? lou: the fact is the pattern that each one of these offenses are aimed against our traditional form of government.

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