>> over in! neil: julie thank you, your final appearance memorable, mercedes y you canome back, and craiome back, that is is it here, see you tomorrow >> where i it? winning streak on wall street goes on, and where is the austerity? let's bring economist frifdrich hey yeckack in the mix. >> what is austerity anyway? >> i do not know. >> i have noiea.

the fight over austerity. that is our show. tonight. >> now john stossel. john: the word austerity means self-denial, when applied to government it mea cutting spending. i put the word in quotes here, because, despite media whaling abt it -- wailing about austerity there have been few realuts here or in europe. there are books out like off austerity kills. he said thi comic strip explains it all, portrays. aliens who want to destroy ear earth. aliens shoot him for reveals the

truth. >> i'm proudo be an off the an austarian . unfortunately, only a few people congress actually take my side a want to cutpending. i a happy to he one of them here wit us, senator rand paul. propos specific cuts, but senator, i'm told if he cut now, when the economy is not great, this will make unemmloymen worse. >> well here is the amazing thing about people saying that we are living in an age of off th austerity, we have not cut any spending in washington. spding still is gwing, in washington. when they say if you tutt spending - if you cut spending that will cause lack o economy growth. people spend money, just who spends it, friedman had this he put it well, he said nobody ds some one else's money as wisely as they spendheir own.

john: you talk with your colleagues about there have been no real cuts, do they look at you like you are wrong? >> no, i think a lot of people up here understand it. people like krugman take it and demagogue an issue they know full well we're not cutting o spendinge're slowing the rate of growth at best. butteven tha rate of growth, you saw they went crazy, the sequester, the sky is falling, the same week they do, that they sent extra $250 million to egypt. they havenough money to send around the world but not enough for white house tours, that does no pass the smell test. jo: have you plan, you would eliminate commerce,ducation, energy, housing and urban development. you say that to people that frightens them, assume? >> well, i telllto people is that really what is extreme is

what i going on up here. balancing our budget, if you talk to a family about balancing their budget, not spend morgue than com in -- spending more than comes in, it sounds like a asonable notion, i can te money from the economy i it build a bright shiny building say this is wha i did wit your money. but we don't see what entrepreneurs and individuals would have done with that extra money in the economy that goes back to from friedman says, who spends money more wisely wn it is your own or government. government are waste irs of money they have no clue has to how to making any, i wa to live more money in the prproductive economy. john: creates thousands of jobs, we don'tnow what they might have done. >> right. but really who can make things better? the private world or the government. we have a gat dial o evidence thatovernment wastes money,

misdirects it, i can give you example after example of millions of dollar snt on roll up beef jerky, 5 million-dollars spent on studying collective action of fish. there has been no austerity here n the united states we have struggled to slowdown the rate of growth of government, and they foughts on the sequester that slows the rate of growth, i think that arican people are not buying it they see there is plate of gamesmahip. >> president sayg no more lel-guided white house tours, no more air traffic controllers, most people believe you could move money around. and cover some of the things. one example. how, if the president would have behavinger rationally, if you don't rehire the people who are retiring from government, tha is 6 billion a year. so the sequester was passed a

year and a half ago. he did nothing. for a year and a hal if he would have instituted that, it would have been $9 billion, a fourth of what we needed to cut. john: ank you senator paul. now, america has big financial problem in europe, they are worse. this riot was in greece. grce had the most riots, there have been big fights in spain effort gal, portugalleleportugal and engnd. >> there has just been cuts, lts. john: many say europe's troubles prove that the fre market argument is wrong. the europe troubles gave he

pause. could it be true? cato economist dan mitchell. why haven't the budget cuts worked? >> because there have n bee y that woman from england. the cut, cut, government spending has gone up in the united kingdom every single year. for at least a couple decades, and even since their so-called conservative government took over, and it is ring faster than inflation, you lookt france, governmenttspending going up. >> we have graph. france, italy, united kingdom, spain. they are increasing government speing at a rapid rate. all of a sudden, fiscal financial crisis hit, we have to do austety, it was not prune back the size, they said let's raise taxes, they are raising taxes, driving private sectors into the dirt, that dii not work, now finally, in greece,

wee seeingga tiny bit of spending cuts, only because they have reached end of the rope, they cannot get more bailos they raised taxes to a point where the imf said you get less revenue, so, amazingly like,al the greeks made a tiny spending cut. >> why all of the publicity about dracoan cuts, people there experiencing it believe it. >> the fight in europe is between so-called austerity crowd and growth crowd, bu the growth crowd arr paul krugman, keynesianing and ing and big sed austerity people want higher taxes, there is nobody in europe that's advancing the position

that senator rand paul was talking about. we have a big expensive inefficient government. if we' more growt we have to shrink burden of government spending. the transfer of resources from privateector to the government that is what hurts your economy. john: the government has no money of its own. >> and all likelihood they will no spend the money as efficiently. >> and the coverage is so insane. the atlantic, a respectable magazine, editor matthew o'brian, the more country has cut, the more unemployment it has, a recoveryy is worth the deficit. >> i bit he agrees withaul krugman and thinks that more government speing will help an economy even though is did not work for hoover and roosevelt in th 30s, not for japan in 90s not for bush in 2008, not

for obama in 2009, it never worked anywhere. john: people belve it. >> politians love the theory. itells them their advice have is a virtue. >> they like to spend. yeah, i amith you, i wl be first in line. line. >> any good examples? any country that has done it right. >> i just go the back from europe, gotff the plane tay, came here because this show is the best place to be, the baltic countries. estonia, they have done the right thing, they cut government spending, i say cut, i am not talking about washington thing, we increase spendingt 6% instead of 8%. no, in battle tick countries -- battle ticbaltic county itsas l. >> those economies are growing?

>> they are growing, they recovered, jobs are coming back, they have positive gtp, economy growth while the country that ha gone with the tax increase approach, like italy, spain, greece, portugal,nd et cetera, et cetera, they are in receson recession. moral of the story, you have figure out ways to reduce burden of ggvernmen spending and taxes and most country in europeave nottdone that. the baltics are a tiny glimmer of good news. john: back on this continent. years back in 90s canada maae big real cuts, and prospered. the canyon dollar was worth0 something cent at the time, n parody with our dlar it works. >>mazing most of those cuts, actual genuine real spending cuts in canada happened under a labor party government. john: a liberalovernment. >> new zealand d the same thing in 1990s, and actual to

be fair, bill clinton was much better than a lot of republicans. at least he restrained the growth in spendin republican in congress made a big role in it too. evidence shows if you restrain the g growth of governmnment or better actuallyut government spending, you are freeing up resources for productive sector of the economy thats where you get growth. we have to focus on taking government, which figuring out, how to at least restrict it so it is growing slower than privacy secto john: well good luck with that, dan mitchell. coming up. two economists will argue abo austerity. >> if you first, a man who said that must tert off the turty is like debtor's prison.

john: i say, bring on what the punditting calling austerity. let's cut stuff.

government spending $3.8 trillions now. and sorry that is just theefeds, states and local government spends more, it is too much, every dollar they spend is a dollar the prite sector does not have. free individuals spend cutter that is why cutting government spending is good. but bob kuttn said that austerity is like prison his new book. "debtors prison: the politics of austeritrsus posibility." and he wants to cut. so bob i start wh you, we haves there e ssistant s there are the national debt. as we age, the baby bmers, are you saying w don't need to cut? >> this is a question about deficits in the conte of a depressed economy. time to cut deficits is when the

economy is in recovery as bill clinton did in 10ss clinton got economy to surplus in context of high growth, you have a soft economy, that is a time to have defkit sit spending because you need stimulus. john: mark, respond? >> what we're suffering from today is imprudent fiscal policy, what the government is doing with their irresponsible welfar payments with interfering with business and so forth. is keeping the private sector, which is the majority stakeholder that should be the focus here, with employment and so forth, they are the key. jo: what abou don'to point - boo int? >> there are many examples i private sector where banks, companies i was a consultant for ibm they went 3 a difficult down size -- through a difficult down

siding in 1990s they fired a quter of their workers. a hundred thousand workers, like at ibm tay, united states, same situation. ife adopt austerity, pdent austerity wean turn our country and blossom like we've ner done bor john: bob, when you say now is not the time, when is the time? >> the time is when the economy is healthy and the clinton era, and late 1990s, one time i rent history the budget was in surp we were on track to have no national debt. and 2000, econmists worried about how the fed will conduct monetary policy, when have paid off natnal debt, i am n the sort of guy who says we should always have a deficit, this is not a time to tighten your bt. you may agreee i don't think we

should raise taxes. i don't think we should cut spending. john: we have a national debt now that is 100% about of gdp does that scare you. >> about 70. john: interest rates go up it wil be horrible. >> everyone has been warning for 5 years that interest rates are going up, the economy is so dead in the water, that interest rates are not going up. after the war debt ratio was 120% of gdp higher than today. john: it came sharply down, it was a war, the war ended. our welfare spending is not going to end. >> that gets to my point, i think really important, we are overly generous welfare program, second -- section 8 housing, and food stamps, the americans on welfare, ty want to work but we have a sim t that syst that does not incentivize themo go

back to work, we need to be like n franklin. he faced financial crisis all his life, he lived below his means, where is the federal rainy day fund. >> there is nothing wrong with debt, per se, but it has to be done prudencel in my own life i put 20% down when i bought a home, i payoff my credit card every month, calle prudence moy management in government we don't have any evidence of prudence money manager. john: bob last word. >> as recently as 2001, government projected an endless surplus. and it was bush tax c, bush wars then derulation of finance tt created the he deficits. >> we agree to disagree thank youob and mk, mark has organized what we calls world's largest gathering of free mines.

freedom fest in las vegas, theme this year is, are we rome? i'll take ts show to the roa to be in freedom fest in july. d tape a show. tonight, what if you manage your budget like the politics manage their? >> this is a family budget, what do you think about that? they make 24, an spend 35, they lost 10,00 this year. they are already in debt. >> what type of people wouldo that. >> federal budget, i just took some zeros off. >> that a big number.

john: think about this family budget. really ugly. income last year $24,000, but a

spent 35,000. incurringal left 11,000 in new debt, they had a lot of old detz. i would say they are highly irresponsible. but this is actually the federal government's budget, i just took off 8 zeros, people on the street had an appropriate reaction to that. >> what? that is a lot. >> formula for disaster, our future is dismal no doubt. hn: you pay for this, does it scar y? >> a little bit. >> i'm broke, i don't know how i'm going to do this john: and radio hos dave ramsey helps themselves get out of debt. what you think about my time squared gimmick? is it fair to the government budget? >> is absolutely fair because of a ro is a zero and aass is math when you spend more than you make you go into debt.

is not rocket science and. john: comparing policians use sees similarities in their psychology? >> there is. one definition of maturity is learning to delay pleasure, putting it off. when you are a child you are throwing a fit in the group three --erial i is a maturity. we all have that little kid but as a grown-up we learn to delay pleasure and back away from the table we cannot eat too much food or spend too much money we learn these things is called self control but when you are imager or in the immature culture you elect imager people to represent you then you continue to spend more than you make. that is a problem with the politicians. john: there has been interesting psychological studies putting a cupcake in front of a kid to save you don't have one and and and

now you can have a bunch leader buthen they follow them 20 years later and the kids wo were best able g to grab the extra treats did better in life consists of 87 exactly. any of us have the ability to start making those choices to take on pain or maturity to inater. but we have to believe if we're goi to do that we willin later. inther words, the care i has to be real. john: talking to people on this te i was happy they were horrified but i was surprised when i asked them thisuestion. at would you cut? >> i would cut come i don't know to tell you the truth. >> not education. john: not education? >> that is a tough question where to cut. john: don' cut this or that

item know wh to cut. but do the people that called of a radio show don't know what to cut ou of theipersonal budge >> people do know but it is the immaturity factor i don't not want to go out to eat or i don't want not go on vacation but i have $110,000 of student loan debt that has been around so long i think iis a pet. i have to make choices because it will not go away if i don't change my behavior. john: the people that listen to after word ey say i am happier now? spendingess? >> what is weird i they are happier immediately bause when you have a sense of being a grownup to put on your big boy pants to say i will control my destiny, i will control my life and i wi not live from impulse to impulse and i write it out even though i am not out of debt b what i am writing alex is a recipe for christma and have to

liver pizza to givep my inme is aough plan but i get a sense of dignity because i am being a grownup and takingontrol of my future. there is a power in that that is unbelievable it is call a whole. john: thing to do ramsey i wish i had more hope for our federal politicians. , the frederick highjack the economists comes back from the dead in support of austerity. ♪

john: [applause] the serious debate of austerity stimulus began 80

years ago with the economist john maynard keynes and say we can spend their way back to prosperity an friedrich hayek said it no way. not those exact words but i would like to think if friedrich hayek heard about the obama stimulus plan he would have said something like this. ♪ the party is over ♪ ♪ are you kidding? conoco it works perfectly fine knockout there was a recession back in 2009 no. things could have been worse john: that is what i hear the recession would have been much worse without stimulus spending and when unemployment is still hayek that is the time to spend and jump-start the economy. ♪ hn: it is an ennine that needs a spark and this makes sense to people so let's

turn to the pducers of that rapideo that has received millions of views on new tube ross roberts and former mtv producer, keynes argued the economic slowdown is prime the pump like a car? >> it sounds good and3 politicians like it but doesn't actually work? >> when the stimulus plan rked using the keynesia model they said if we did not pass it unemployment could reach eight point* 5 we did and it went over tens of the model was wrong so there is a historical example for me than a fancy statistical models and i argue the evans is a mixed john: plenty of people say unemployment would be bked up if it was a bigger if you had keyneses' say it. >> if we would have done

betterif we spent more than a happens if there is a world war. >> they gue world war ii ended the great depression. buto stimulate private consumption it is a time of austerity in the real sense of the word. john: thewere making tankk >> it is a measure economy if you are in the munitions business you did great but the average person if you want to buy the refrigerator or car you could not becae the steel was used for the othestuff. that is reality government spding crowds out prive activity. john: aerwards government's spending went down we went into a horrible recession. >> thats what the keynesian is prected -- predicted a fell 40% as truman point out in his discussion afterwards and plan it was high despite that there were 10 million

soldiers coming backome went tochool and a lot of them found new wo somehow the economy thrived without the government's stimulus. >> what is strange about the keynesian approach is they don't seem to care whether value is created by economic tivity or not. as a producer i have to create value for my audience and make something people want to see but in a keynesiaworld it doesn't matter how you spen the moy you cld build the bomms are the tanks or also have projects to build appear in it or have alienations. john: eaking of that we don't have a world war but on cnn paul krugman suggested it would be good if wead something like a war. >> if we discover space aliens needed a massive buildup and inflation and

budget deficits took secondary places, thisould be over in 18 months. >> in a way that speaks for itse, doesn't it? john: a lot of back -- economic activity. >> i could sell you my sock and you could sell back to me and if we kept doing that in a ircular fl to measure it as gdp then we would be amazingly wealthy and the economy would grow. john: i don't want your socks. [laughter] in a keynesian world field is all stimulus it doesn't maer. every fight the aliens we get richer andt ignores the resources where th come from touild the anti-alien space weapons. john: talk about austerity. we have tried it a it doesn't work? >> where have we tried it? we hear about t united states for thunitedtates government or the last four yes has not grown as dramatically as as in the

past government spending actually went down a little bit that was at the all-time high. john: now it is predicted a little more because of the quester. >> can we run a deficit over $1 trillion the easing could be pretty keynesian peace. john: but it is not enough. >> evidently. that is what friedrich hayek made the point* very well that it is a complex world of what is going on at once but is easy to say would have been worse if we had not don it. it is hard to prove that then it is a religion of both sides >> something i find offensive is we talk about austerity in the richest nations of the world and the largest governments the world has ever seen that when you talk about cutting 3 percent is austety. with the rest of the planet that means yourids and

belly is crumbling because they are hungry a the culture of lling what we're doing austerity is propulsive when you think about it in the broader scope of the g global community and the people who reallyhave to figure ut what they will do next. jo: with the critics cl us as the austerity and it sounds like austrian economics which some of you know, about and i assume most don't know is there a connection? it is a play on words to make fun of the austrian economislike friedrich hayek that was skeptical of the keynesian prescrtion. it is a little jab. i wear it proudly. john: thank you. coming up, i will saul's our deficit problem. but first you and the audience get that quiz -- get to quiz ou guest.

[applause]

[applause] john: we're back with your questions for our case no economist and ross roberts

and john head made the rap video. so first from the facebook page has a. bill: defined the end game principles when deciding what programs to fund or cut? >> for public goods like property rights aree good for an economy that type of spending is helpful and some type of physil and human pilpending grows education and can be good if done efficiently. but the bulk of the budget today whether europe or the u.s. this transfer or consumption ending and the evans is that diverts resources from far more productive resoues and if you do cost-benefit test and e transfer consumption spending looking at that types about lay. john: the port and the helpless? that is what the transfer

payments are supsed to be. >> if you get the private sector growinghe four will be better off than he would much rather be pour in hong kong or singapore because you have a better future than france for the best you can hope for is the politicians will for ever tch you on the head to keep you dependent ward of the state. >> people now more than ever are graduating from iversity into a terrible job market usually having a degree in something that will not hp them. deal think this for job market is reflective of just a bad the economy or is there a fundamental problem with the educational system how we educate our students? >> it is aerna choice with a major and if it is not profitable that is your choice. but there's nothing wrong with that i don't think that knowing about poetry could help you to get a job that

makes you a beautiful father but it should not be subsidized as much as it is we subsidize people ttking things that are not practical that means the people making those choices are not using their own money. that is a mistake. >> nobody has brought up entitlements. i don't se how they can be sustained with governnt, a city, the employees that get lifetime health insurance and pension, where does the money come from? >> with the federal gornment level it is abo medicare and medicaid and social security it is about health care entitlement but normally i of bill was gloom and doom but the house of representati in 20112012 votedd for eitlement reform of medicaid and medicare with a fairly substantive way and they got reelected in 2012 and that and think th are suffering at all

have sobered up and realize looking at the calamity in europe we have to aress the long run fiscal problems and unrestraine entitlements for once in my life i will sou optimistic >> those setter, the syrians a lot of times they not talk that we believe civi society should be larger looking back to history you can find there is a rich civil society that took care of our bther. >> natalie did they do the benefits that they did it in such a way that is loca and help people to account because you look your brother inhe face because if he had a plasma screen tv while unnmployed it is harder to do that when you know, the people that are supporting you. there is more to this than just what we will cut the wheat allowed to merge after that. john: toounter your

optimism from titter afile clerk says is untr this austerity will only go on to hurt the pork? >> w like to thinkt does that most government spending goes to the rich and no class people. john: food stamps an medicaid. >> that is a tiny portion there's a lot of things to cut before weet to the poor corporate welfare or in time of programs that go to rich people why should everybody contribute to social security and every by the get some money back? reserve for thepeople who are poured it is not to pay for health care and retirement who are ab. >> but they said it encourages people to not to say if we don' need to save the government saves for us then we get more spending. john: katcs sarcasm. [laughter]

>> if the governme is emed irrespoible because ofampant spending what is your solution to that same government to decide responsibly what t ct and what not to? [llughter] >> that is a great question. we often talk abouout the government as if is the person w dides of coursethere is no single the cider and itis the emerging progress of the members of congress and it is not a logical but we do better than othercountries out like to see the constitution john: thank you. coming up my austerity program. i will show you how to cut

governme. [applause]

john: if you just tune did earlier i was in times square showing people this family budget. >> what you think of these people making 24,000 in spenng 35,000 almost

$11,000 debt. >> facias stop spending their money. >> they should get their priorities bennett -- straightrom what they need tospend their money. john: this is the federal budget actually i took of the zeros. >> battle think the is any way we can me that up. >> crazy. john: what would you cut? >> that is a tough question. john: what wou you cu >> make different choices i guess. >> web when i cut? hn: you are cory know the government. >> i would cut i don't know to tell you the truth. john: they don't know? we spend almost $4 trillion and most people have no clue about what to cut? i kn. i was struck by falling grand falls plan by cutting

entire cabinet departments like a bloated edation department. it has long been paid for by states the f spending $100 -- $100 biion per year is not better just more bureaucratic. who needs a commerce department? got just happens the politicians get power to help the cronies. so does the energy department they take your money to fund companies like solyndra, a solar trust, all of them wen bankrupt. we don't need an energy department. america already has won it is called the ee market. if you invent a better feel you will get rich. with those departments on i would go beyond senator paul's planned to cut more and close the labor department it is done by workers a does not need a department for also the agriculture department it is ne by farmers and bureaucrats mostly

subsidized the big business. there is souch more that could be cut. in that book just out in paper book we cut all the way to serve less. it isn't hard it and it would create prosperity that most politicians are eager to spend more. check out there website at bebenefits .gov th suggest i am eligible for 55 of them disability, environntal sustainability give me a break. endi handouts to people li me is not austerity it is common sense and right now we're on theoad to greece but if we culd cut government to sell limited government the founde had in mind poverty would be so where -- where our kids would have to lea about in hiory boo. th is our show we will have another showim

thursday night. thank you fo wching. thank you fo wching. [applause] [dave gentry] hello, i'm dave gentry welcome to small stocks and big money. [intro music] [intro music] [intro music] [intro music] [intro music] [dave gentry}first, a quick update. redchip's document security systems reached a high of over $3.50, up from $2.10 just six weeks ago when it first appeared, here, at the redip money report.