neil: what the hell is going on? the nsa is tapping our phones and verizon is letting them or dleghting our phone records, and verizon, again, is letting them? forget about whether we are losing criminal. the more stuff like this happens, you know, we could be losing our country. weird, just weird. riddle me this. how can you tell if your phone is tapped? you can't. they are so good at it you wouldn't have the vaguest clue they are doing it, same goes for what is more likely the case here, someone getting your phone records. if verizon hands them over to the government, how would you know? well, you wouldn't. it's already happened. i bet you didn't know, did you? whether they are just listening

in or having a phone company cough them up, it doesn't either get a little med up here? does me. the latest reports that the nsa got verizon to serve up phone records on millions of people, millions, has me wondering not who is spied and, but think about how big it is getting and how big the lies are getting to explain how big it's getting. we went from the irs targeting what it first said were a few conservative groups to then dozens, and then hundreds. it was over the course of the year, and it was not just conservative groups, but donors to the groups whose names were leaked to the press by unname rogue agents to discover there were more than a couple agents, more like at least 88 of them doing stuff like this. there's the stuff at the justice department, going after what we

were told were a few reporters and their records and on and on. the attorney general had no idea. then, oh, yeah, he had an idea. well, news he orchestrated the entire idea. they hit up private companies to promote the law only to discover it was more than just a few companies. you can't make it up. it just keeps going up and up and up making me wonder how high up? if it's not coordinated, it looks like a pattern politically targeting bureaucrats using the full weight and power of government to spy on people and make it against the constitution that protects us, people. we don't have to be less than right to know this is wrong and private companies doing your bidding? scary to think richard nixon got in football -- for an enemy's list number in the hundreds, and these go after

groups, phone records and individuals that number, what, in the millions? for the love of god, where does it stop? we're past the time where we have to scream together, stop. i didn't shout it. a guy shouting it before nip else, ron paul, said this is the risk problem with big government. congressman, what do you think of the now littest revelations? >> well, i don't think they are brand new. i assume this has been going on, you know, in 2006, it was announced they were doing p. neil: absolutely. we have to stress this part of the patriot act that allowed this to be done was something senator obama posed, but go ahead. >> caller: oh, yeah. of course, there were a few back in the beginning of the decade, last decade, and we trieded to point this out, but, no, i think it's been ongoing so it's great when news brraks so people find out about it and get annoyed about it, but the only benefit i

see that comes from this is that people get disgusted with big government. of course, you know that's been my goal to convince people they don't need big government to run a nanny state to take care of us because they give us perfect economic safety and security in equity and always perfect safety, but they only do that with the destruction of liberty. neil: urn the guys that protect you. in other words, the phone records they gathered, 110 million plus americans, it was just the phone records, maybe precaution coming as it did in april of this year after the boston bombings that maybe there's a threat these records could be destroyed so we want them handy, no one's calls monitored, the numbers of who you calledded, when you called, and how long you were on the call, so that's it. calm down, america. >> caller: yeah, and, you know, even now after this story breaks, i still hear commentators on tv and radio say, well, we want to be safe, and that's the government's job. the government's job is not

that. neil: you watching msnbc again, congressman? >> caller: maybe it was on the interpret. i won't fess up. neil: you're right. we do a lot of whacky things. what do we do now? >> caller: well, what we have to do is get the american people, again, to believe in self-reliance, limited government, believe in the constitution, get an understanding of what the fourth amendment says and get people with backbone. it's coming because what we're witnesses now is the failure of the state, the failure of the government, the failure of the fed, the economic system is in shambles, our foreign policy in shambles, and this always leads to the undermining of civil liberties in war for perpetual peace with the sacrifice of personal liberty. it's a death struggle for the republic, and hopefully -- neil: to be fair, you were on this before anyone, but tell you

what, when the defense or those willingly on unknowingly perpetrated this, that speaks to your big government too unwieldy to deal with. >> caller: oh, i know where the contest is, but where i was encouraged, you know, i ran in 2008 and 2012, and in 2008, i condemned the patriot agent. it would get the loudest applause on college campuses. a even like berkeley, so i work unr on the assumption you don't have to convert, 51% of the people, you need leadership that lead the way and get people to come along in the right direction. mostly, people are following leadership, but they are taught bad economics, bad foreign policy, they are complacent, materialistic thinking wealth lasts forever, the fed takes care of us, debt works, and printing money solves the problems. that's ending. neil: absolutely. >> caller: i'm delighted to

see this because with this along with the irs, let me tell you, there's a lot of people coming our way on being rather annoyed by this intrusive government. neil: i admire your backbone then and really now. dead on target. thank you. >> caller: thank you. neil: is it me, but as a verizon customer, should i be ticked or furious that they now have my records and my phone calls to all the duncan donuts? do i sue in legal eagle says, go ahead, but i guess i'd have a tough time; right? >> until that evidence that the phone records are used against you. it's called standing. you can't go into court unless you are hurt or damaged, and say, your honor, because the government took my phone records, this is what happened to me. neil: is there a difference? we still -- this was done under court order, we'll told.

what if it was not and what if a company, after boston, went down in boston, you're trying to go get a data base, get a government, and cross reference it and find a network of potential bad guys, so you're verizon; right? do you need a court order to give it over because it's a national security issue and national security threat? >> well, the national security, they are creating their own subpoena under the patriot agent. neil: you remember the fact they had legal action that took here to get the records? >> i don't know -- i don't think they had to go to a judge. neil: in other words, they walk up to verizon, hand it over. >> under the patriot act. it was a knee jerk -- neil: i read the heelth care law, don't put too much on me. >> if you read the patriot act, a knee-jerk reaction to 9/11, and i'm not saying it was not necessary then, but the way it excisions now, you can get a federal subpoena, and you're not allowed to -- as an individual,

you can't tell anyone about it, -t's a secret other than from your lawyer. neil: that's the protection alone that you as a customer, and, by the way, verizon was one, but there could be others. >> this will be challenged when this evidence is used somehow against someone to hurt someone in some way, shape, or form. right now, i can't just, tomorrow, go in and file a lawsuit. i'm a verizon customer. neil: i don't know who is telling the truth here because if they said here, you know, started out with few groups targeted, and no individuals, and a lot of individuals, and now the phone records, take a chill pill. >> it's been going on for a long time. they'll kkeel all right, who is to say, what's to say they don't have and have not expanded their wiretapping campaign? i don't believe nip. >> it's fundamental fourth amendment principles; right? it's 200 years ago. you -- it's privacy to protect the innocent, that's what the fourth amendment is for, to protect the innocent.

the way they act by the all of the phones in the news room of the associated press, by all of the people who are applying for nonprofit status, by all the verizon customers, it's a direct violation of the spirit, the purpose of the fourth amendment. neil: i can't do anything as a customer. >> not until you're hurt and damagedded. neil: what if i'm exposed, damaged, i was told i'm on a diet. >> say they find out and penalizes you, now you are damaged. you possibly you have the standing to go into a courtroom, but before anything negative happens to you, you just can't say that it happened. they allow people to do the dna swabs of their mouth now. until they use that in court, they were not allowed to go into court. now they are in court. neil: if it's hard to sue the company doing the government's bidding, i would imagine it's next to impossible to sue the government. >> that's who you would be suing.

neil: that would be the irs ongoing after conservative groups? that would be justice department if i'm a reporter and i've been maligned, you know? >> you do more than sue. you tell the judge whatever evidence they have against me, they can't use it because this was illegal. they obtained this evidence in an illegal manner so i should not be hurt in any way, shape, or form. neil: no law to protect me? you lawyers are brilliant, but there's not an icky law? >> no. the thing you literally learn in the first year of law school is called standing. even though something bad is happening, until you get hurt by it, real quick, people are hit by a car, dahl me, i'm in a car accident, i want to sue. where were you hurt? i didn't get hurt: i'm fine. why are we suing? in other words, what do you want to get money for? how did you get hurt? okay, yes, it was his fault, liability is clear. here it's verizon's fault or the government's fault. i don't know who is at fault for turning over the records, but --

okay, now we got over that hurdle. what's the damage? how were you hurt? well, nothing, they know i called for a lot of pizza. did you get in trouble for work for it? no. sorry, you can't come to court. only come to court if you were hurt, or if they charge you with a crime because of it, now you can say, hey, they should not have beening at my phone records. neil: you can keep doing this, the government, with little fear that there's any punishment. >> we're supposed to be the fear. the citizens are to be in touch with the congressman saying change p. >> the irs can apologize to us. if the irs, you know, goes after me, and i apologize to them, i can't get back to you right away, i'm screwed, they go on? >> that's big government. we're getting bigger and bigger and bigger under both sides of the ail. neil: that's right. it's happening left and right. all right. i have no idea. it's an iris. >> confused. neil: thank you, buddy. good stuff.

you helped me understand this, which means i should be ticked off by this. worried about china hacking on us; right? frankly, to argue the., i'm worried about us hacking us. no matter, we are trying to get tough on beijing. why isn't china worried? because they know our bark, and they have never, ever remotely seen our bite. to the former cyber czar says that bites. i'll ask mitt whether all the scandals brewing now make it think but could have been him. he's the special guest here and only here tomorrow. ♪

neil: you know, i wonder if they named the antibill today, probably too soon to, but maybe they should call it we're really serious and not going to put up with your crap anymore, china,

and how, good luck. the latest effort to punish overseas hackers is admirable, to think the president would sign, shall we say, doubtful? even as it was marked up, china was doubling down. reports of more hacking incidents involving the most advananies to supposedly supersecret and super safe defense contractors. the former white house cyber -zar, howard schmidt. what's the goal to reign this activity, or nip else? what can the white house -- what can anyone do? >> well, there's a couple things. one, this has been going on for a long time, and it's been on sort of the back room discussions, very few companies have come forward to talk about it. google was the first one back in 2010. we saw companies complaining privately they are intruded upon, data, their intellectual property is stolen, but they don't want to make a stink

because they want business in china. they don't want to make the world difficult. congress says, okay, what we'll do is go out and create a new statute that says if you do this against the united states, you don't have to rise to the level of normal criminal evidence that, you know, we look for law enforcement things, but have a level of accountability you had not before, and, importantly, is if it states whether it's state sponsored or not. the country you are in has to take action against you. the problem is it's almost inpossible to enforce. neil: what toy -- they do in europe is slap trades on it, and we do that, but they can come back to you, the chinese, and slap tariffs, and it's a trade war, and historically, that does not end up good. still, our options appear limited, and we, in this country, seems to be on particular defense of the guards of china because we are afraid they go elsewhere and not fund our debt. what do we do then short of

that? >> well, that's the problem that we've had because, like i said, this should not have reached the level where it's a crisis now. there's the sort of what they call track two discussions going on, mid level bureaucrats on both sides giving speeches about it, but, clearly, this is an issue where it's got to be separated from a lot of the other china, u.s. relationship issues. doesn't talk much about the issue about, you know, the u.s. presence in asia, doesn't talk about the rel valuation, and this is an issue that stands alone on its own. we have to make them understand that there are, indeed, rules of the road, even with cyber espionage. countries do that forever and forever they'll continue. that won't stop. when the theft of intelligence chewable property, then turned over to their nation's companies to compete against others in the world that that's out of bounds. the next thing they have to do is really understand that they really would be better off from an economic perspective and a public perspective globally if they're inside the tent and not

outside. they don't seem to catch that for some republican, and we need to make sure that we make them understand you got to be inside. neil: i think china has a case they don't care. we're rich, growing fast, the world is the oyster, blah, blah, blah. other ideas are banty about like, well, if they play dirty, we play back. if they hack us, we hack back. we hack them. we're pretty good at that if we wanted to be, but we don't consider that because we're america, we don't do that. we just hack our own citizens, we don't go to other companies. you know what i mean? do you think that sometimes the only way to play with someone, you know, throwing you darts is to throw darts back? >> you know, if if it was just a u.s.-china thing, that would be an issue, but right now, looking at other nations saying, well, gee, everybody's out there hacking. i've seen cases in the past where you get on a system that's been compromised, data's moved from companies all around the

world, governments all around the world, and so it's like a dirty pool. your really don't know who's in there. is it an intelligence agency from another country? a group of hackers? a group of activists? it's a consequence looking at us against them. it's much brooder than that. they are the noisiest and the ones we worry about most because we have more intellectual property to lose than anybody else does. neil: well put. howard, thank you very much for joining us. >> good talking with you, neil. neil: 16,000 new irs agents working on health care, and that's just the tip of the ice pack. the government with another hiring binge that just could make you cringe. ♪

♪ neil: well, the health care law is creating jobs. that is the good nudes. now, here's the bad news. getting the jobs are the people trying to figure out the health care law.

not all of them, but a good number of them. hiring temperatures of thousands of what they call navigators about people fluent in foreign los angeless like vietnamese so they can, i guess, figure out a measure we can't comprehend in english. anyway, in any language, it's a mess. gretchen, what do you think of this? >> well, you know, i think it's app unfortunate seeing the government do what they do best, spend a lot of money and keep on growing and create a government that doesn't know what the other hand is doing, and here we see this massive health care law's needing several of thousands of people to be implemented, and people who have to understand what this bill is all about when the people who even voted for it and signed it into law don't know what it's about. neil: they were short on cash to the point that they, that is, the health and human services secretary, hit up companies over which she would be having direct control to fund it.

>> yeah, back to the argument, i love job creation, who doesn't? it's public sector job creation. who pays the public employees? we do. neil: you can use the argument that they -- the money they got, they spend on stuff and helps everybody. >> but how are we creating the paycheck? we are raising taxes, deficit spending. california hired 20,000 public workers. california's doomed as a state. this is just a bad precedent, and it's like what was said, one end of government not knowing what the other enis doing, reminding me of thomas, the book, you know, the big government monster, and that is what this is. >> that's verizon, but that might be right. >> 50 shades of government. neil: you know, i was looking at this trying to think with the health care and latest issue on jobs, and now there's the irs stuff and the agents that, however many, led to that, are going to be, you know, hell to

pay, and this is the same organization that will be overseeing this thing. not a great confidence booster. >> well, you know, the first thing to acknowledge is 30 million people are going to get health care coverage who don't have it now. neil: you've seen that the two out of three of them are debating whether they should get it. >> right. i think -- neil: look at the folks who went through the trouble. they might not want it. >> they don't have it yet. how do they know? >> a lot have it. neil: if they say, all right, this great man that from help coming our way, saying, yeah, we might, we might not, it's, like, hey! >> you know, i think, you know, to adam's point earlier, i think that california, by the way has their finances under control, but, sure, 20,000 jobs needed as far as that's concerned, but doctors are needed, nurses needed, and, you know, we need x-ray technicians. neil: who hires them? >> private companies, hospitals, clinics. >> by the way, physicians are

opting out of the medical field. >> they are. >> because of the insurance liabilities and because of the bureaucracy they would rather not deal with, so, you know, in terms of doctors and so forth, things, watered down and what's hired are bureaucrats and people to explain something that i don't understand, you don't understandings and you help me understand, but most of us don't understand. >> i think people understand their current health insurance coverage. neil: what they didn't understand, and gretchen, with you, they thought they could keep their coverage, and the president sworn on a stack of bibles to keep coverage. he was to the letter right, but he left out, you keep the coverage, but you pay through the nnse, and unions discovered with their own cadillac plans they, too, are subject to this, you know, high health care coverage tax saying, wait a minute. that's not what we signed up for. that's going op in the country. it's a great wait a minute moment. >> it is a great wait a minute

moment. this administration promised a great deal on a number of different issues, and when it comes to health care, they are failing to meet its promises saying you can keep the plan. no, you can't keep your plan. look, there's a jobs report coming out tomorrow. most economists are already talking about how the health care law is going to be a drag on the economy, and it's going to be a drag on the jobs numbers. neil: we don't know yet. we don't know yet. >> northeast are predicting it. >> you know, i have to be honest. my preference when this was done was hr676, medical care for all, something that everybody's already familiar with, there's no mystery to it. everybody's in favor, most are in favor of medicare, and it would simp fie things. neil: we didn't get that. the government wail. >> states have the option to go for medicare, and other universal health care things under this current. neil: all right, we'll get you back, but this makes me sick. >> i agree.

neil: we shall see. hope springs eternal, you know, you might be right. we'll see. mr. president, i know you now ignore fox news and fox business, but listen up, someone you never planned on creating a fuss is sick of you. remember al? he's not a pal. when gore goes full-bore. telling you, white house, this is war. ♪

neil: all right, don't look now but more global warms is so hot under the collar. not at folks who dismiss this climate change stuff, but atlanta white house i think that al gore told to get stuffed. it is true. anyway to political money rainmaker noel on how bad they are for president, when captain climate change goes solar on the president. >> a big deal. to those viewers that are big al gore fans, i am sorry, buu what he says and tweets is irrelevant. neil: you can help me here. we're doing a segment on it. but continue. i know what you are saying. >> i'm trying to get at, what a time for him to pick bad at

administration, and to be mr. patriot when he sold tv to aljazeera. neil: that is an excellent point, i didn't think of that going into the segment. more democrats angry about the foot drag of released documents, this is getting tt be a bipartisan rip. >> why do you think that obama came out to a huge pressure, the day before yesterday, about the three court of appeals people he is trying to get 3, and that republicans are trying to get through, and vacancies have been there forever. neil: i think it falls to deaf ears. >> i think he is trying to spin smog, the hori horrible g.o.p. when white house has the cluster bombs going on. neil: even if you are the

president, argue he has --ly is in all of the above, it says somebody somebody about his detachedetached leadership styl. >> you have the ceo of america, saying, not on my watch, i didn't do? so what did you do. neil: one thing i remember about ken lay and enron, he has since. he was mr. hands on. and then, at scandal escalated he became mr. magoo. i love that character, but you go from hands on to handsoff, that is where this white house is. >> mr. magoo had charlie. neil: true. >> he blamed it on charlie. i think that obama is looking for his charlie. neil: charlie works for the irs, one of those rogue agents.

you are the president, you lost ale gore, that -- al gore, you could say that s not a big dial, you say that this festerser does not fester? hurts or not? >> number one republican party has a brands problem. i think that -- >> they can't brand it on just brands "the other guys" all of, right? >> no. i think what is wrong, democrats are now faced with their own brands problem, if the g.o.p. sits tight, does nothing, i think that will surface back to where we'll be party of choice by democrats. >> who is your nominee? >> 2016? neil: no for 2008. >> neil, someone that can appeal to moderate. neil: who, who? >> i know you want me to say chris christie. neil: do you have an attitude coming in?

>> no, i get viral tweets. neil: you are your own woman, you stick to your guns, who'll be the nominee. >> i think it will be rand paul. neil: really? >> i do. there is movement with rand paul. neil: you know, you put my segment down and you put me down, you are still a wonderful gift, i love you dearly, she is the best at what she does which is humiliating the hoist of the show. noel thank you. -i'm kidding. >> these are victoria secret models, what if i told you they save america, why somebody they are doing, makes me say, let's scandal today. of blood flow. cialis tadalafil fodaily use helps you be ready anytime the moment's right.

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to erase recent travel purchases. d with a few clicks this mission never happened. uh, what's this button do? [ electricity zaps ] ♪ you requested backup? yes. yes i did. what's in your wallet? neil: victoria sales secret, chrysler recall secret, and president's scandal killer

secret, jonathan hoenig. here to blitz, same-store sales at victoria secret company jumping 3% last quarter, those sales, much stronger than folks thought. a sign that maybe, maybe, the skin is in? >> well for companies like the limited, is -- >> did you know it is now called l-brand. >> it is, it is victoria secret, they own and define this sexy feminist phase right now, the stock has gone up, consumers out there and brands like tiffany, and victoria that are getting done the sky is the limit. neil: what do you make? >> true. not only that, they have gotten

to a sector of personal care, and lingerie, that is higher margin. they are really making nice money, and also, another thing is that they always paid above average dividends, would you believe it since 2010, 3 years almost $11 on dividend, you know, it is a great company a great stock. neil: all right we'll continue to play that video through the next two issues. issue two. you say 3 million we say hicks00,000, chrysler recalls -- we say 600 hil 600 million vehi. jonathan what did chrysler, what happens? >> this is called beg responsible, memo out of washington. neil: but while it is on the assembly line! before i give you $ 30,000 of my money. >> they want to fix it now,

because you know, they are concerned about not only your money but your welfare. neil: i am sorry to jump on you. you deserve better. >> thank you. neil: back to victoria secret -- >> the car companies they remember back, samurai in 1990s they know if they don't address the safety problem quick the brand will get destroyed. it goes against that business person who the fraudster what would sell a car that does not york. work. neil: absolutely. john: not to make light of safety issue but regulatory issue has a lot to do with it, they stringent up the requirements and hefty finds. neil: all right, maybe they put that model in the aforemantioned vehicles. another story. a good jobs report, but will

best economy news shift american's attention from the spying on them news? >> there is no doubt, at the end of the day, we care about our tum mortummy more than the pres. president clinton put theory on test, open care more about the economy than scandal, he used the it's the economy stupid to get reelected. and it has proven to us we care about the economy more than about the scandal. neil: and woman. >> you know, white house is full of scandals these days, irs, and ap, and verizon, but i till you so-called jobs recovery is more of a scandal from 1948 to 2008, country 11 presidents had 39 months of unemployment above 8%, obama 64 months in his presidency alone. no matter the number tomorrow it

is a scandal how anemic job recovery has been under president obama. >> no doubt about that it will take 15 more years to get back to normal employment of 4% it is ridiculous. neil: understood. i want to thank you guys, and thank you to my control room and staff for keeping -- keeping abreast of these developments. this was just childish, i am a ground man, why do i do this? because it is cable. remember, any of you mrs. crabtree? she loved to spy on samantha in "bewitched." if only she had a drone. if you got the dough, no need to pity you, have dollars have drone. go on? no, you go on. a simple questn: hoold is the oldest person you've known? we gave people a sticker and had them show us.

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neil: you know, binoculars are so rear window, may i interest you to state of the art, high-tech wonder to defy all high-tech wonders. drone. you want to spy with class? this is a good that's would knock the late jimmy stewart in the rear window off his hiney, if only he had his number back then, colin quinn could into sole him a drone with all of the bells and whistles, that is what he does right now. i take it that is one of your model drones right there? >> yes, neil, our first consumer uav . neil: okay. the industry's first.

neil: okay so what is uav? >> unmanned aerial vehicle. neil: they are that size? >> they are this size. they are gps satellite guided, married to carry a go pro camera or similar action sport camera, comes in the box all that you need, they are ready to go, it takes about 5 minutes to put together. neil: what is in them? >> this does not come with a camera, it comes with a bracket for a go pro. >> i got it. >> we're getting ready to release a stabilized camera head for go pros, if youment nice looking aerials, camera stays stable. neil: if i want to spy onny neighbor, not that -- on my neighbor, not that i would, what would i do? >> you use a different

transmitter, i see the image from the camera, we don't -- we're not proponents of using any tools whether a zoom lens or a drone for invading privacy. neil: do i have to control the remote? can it hover like the actual drones? >> sure, well, you know, faa for hobby use wants people to be controlling the drone at all-times, we don't allow it to do fully autonomous missions. only time if you lose signal from your transmitter, or the battery runs out it remembers where it took off it will fly itself home satellite guided and land where it took off. neil: there is a control on that, to let it hover? >> well, you just center all of the sticks, telling it don't go

anywhere. it the fight a 20-mile an hour wind. neil: i like the way you don't say hover over your neighbor's house. now, this is -- >> well you know there are about 15 things that would work better for spying on your neighbor you can buy at apple store. >> what would -- i understand that. what would i buy this for and. >> to take aerial photos, and video of -- >> what? >> anything. of your property, of a range, a beach, near in hawaii look at dji phantom of youtube, you see hundreds of people having fun with these. neil: who are your customers, this is fascinating. >> photographers, presumer and consumer. neil: has the irs called you? or anyone in justice to borrow these. >> no they have not yet. we're selling them at amazon,

and photo and video, a lot of camera shops, we have hundreds of dealers but it is camera enthusiasts. neil: i am kidding with you on a couple things, but in this environment of privacy invasions, wow imagine that would help. people would like to spy back? >> you know, like i said we have worked with the legislation here in texas on putting in laws in place that would prevent you from use using these types of devices for invading privacy or with intent to surveil. we wrap our arms around the 4 amendment. neil: and you should. i could park this over the irs? >> for about 8 minutes at a time, with a camera payload you

have 8 to 10 minute flight time per battery. neil: that is all i need, thank you very much. a very novel concept, thank you. >> thank you, very were. neil: what is difference between these inmates at gitmo, and these american citizens right here, well. administration seems to be doing everything to protect the rights to the guys on the left, and stomping on the rights on the guys on the right, not right.

neil: when the government demands in from, visit individual, instead of hanging' they force over millions of customer records. but when they want info from irs, they can hold them off for who knows how long. gretchen, you say not just.

>> it seems that the government has no definition of privacy, they took our records, they have our records, have to just wonder, where is then candidate obama, then senator obama who had a passion for making sure that government was transparent, and not getting in our way, and out of our life. we see every day it seems like government is doing more and more in our lives, and our privacy is less and less, really privacy. >> you know. republican president came up with patriot act, and pushed in name of protecting us, a policy that would call for now and then well, spying on us. >> and a democratic president that began spying on the american people. neil: i don't think it began with this president. >> no -- let's be clear. this is not a republican democrat issue. >> what happened was, one can

argue, a lot of republicans were out spoken against the patriot act. neil: for this very reason. i want to know whether it is officially out of control. to gretchen's point there is enough blame to go around here. >> i am gratified to see across political spectrum concern about this stuff. actually believe it or not, my opinion is, slightly better than it was a few years ago. we had warrant list wiretapping and seizing of records. >> i love you, but we have an irs going after groups and individuals, a justice department going after reporters, you say things are getting better. >> in tere perms -- terms of

privacy. neil: that is a difference? >> i'm not saying i love it. it is better. neil: that is better? that is showing up at pearl harbor on december 8, saying it could have been worse. >> actually it could have been worse. >> this is an indefensible situation we have here. neil: if you dial it back, alternative to compromise our security. >> let's talk anywhere the irs fits into our security. i am for you know targeting what we think would be bad guys, but what irs did, and the verizon phone records. i would be hard pressed to argue all those phone records come from people who pose imminent national security threats. neil: over a hundred million americans, but part of a big ter bigger picture to me is risk you have a

government that means well, and runs amuck and out of control, one common theme this spills over with agencies leveraging off their power, that is that, too big, too powerful. >> yeah, look at holder signing an affidavit he does not remember signing? neil: he might have forgotten, oh, i will spy on james rosen. >> but that is a big step. neil: james rosen is a common name. >> you know, do something that government has never done before, you just forget you signed it? but think about this, they will have our healthcare records, you think about privacy and who we are calliig, think about our health care recorrs. neil: you think this is be aneurysms thank you to go -- impetus to go slow and stop. you steve you say we're mixing

signals. >> in holder's defense this means something to prosecutors, he was investigates not prosecuting. >> please, he has no defense. there is no -- >> that is a big difference. >> such a liabilitiy for dodge. obama administration. neil: do you think that james rosen is better off now, had this not come to light, i think his fannie would be fried. >> i don't think it is better or worse for him. i think -- but i think -- >> you sound like this is what the meaning of the word is, is. >> this is a indefensible act that eric holder did. neil: we don't know. >> we don't know. neil: we don't know. we don't know! i wish we had more time, i know tomorrow, i know i will ask mitt romney about this on friday, tomorrow. only guy you can find on fox,

and only fox. we want to get to the bottom of what is going on. would have, should have, could have. do you think he is looking at these scandals and saying, don't you think they could have broken earlier, tomorrow. john: we're at war against terror. >> this warlike all wars must end. john: so that american is wage war on apple? apple keeping massive profits overseas, a war on hate crime. >> what turns a normal fat little 8-year-old boy into a vicious hate crime committing rapist? john: to continue the war on drugs. >> this is your brain on drugs. john: start one on food. america's wars on food, terror, business, drugs, and hate. >> if you want to hurt another human being, you better make sure they are the same color as you are. john: that is our show,