great to have you here. we'll talk more, longer. that is it for tonight. you think they could have broken earlier, tomorrow. john: wre at war against terror. >> this warlike all wars must end. john: so that american is wage war on apple? apple keeping massive profits overseas, a war on hate crime. >> what turns a normal fat little 8-year-old boy into vicious hate crime committing rapist? john: to connue the war on drugs. >> this is your brain on drugs. john: start one on food. amica'a's wars on food, terror, business, drugs, and hate. >> if you want to hurt another human being, you better make sure they are the same color as you are. john: that is our show, tonight.

>> now john sssel john: we start show about america's wars with our biggest war, the w on terror, a strange question, what is the right way to kil homosexuals? now that we have your atttntion, i learned about the proper way to kill gays from former cia director james wou -- so ambassador woolsly explain. >> john, wn i was chairman of board of freed house we had a group of american muslims come in to us when were disturbed because the saudis sent imams with diplomatic passports to go to a number of mosques in the u.s., including theirs, they

took away the perfectly reason able instruct material for young people to who were muslim to learn islam. and they left instead a set of material they th the imam printd up, i remember a second of those, it was three ways that it was propero kill a homosexual from the rah habes -- wahhabis in saudi arabia point of view. yoview. it had to be high enough to feel pain coming down? >> right, andld die because it had to be hig enough. the stoning, is supposed to be with small stones, so i takes a long time. and big stone does not knock anybody out. then other third way that wahhabis say you could burn them alive. saudi embassy g upset at this,

said it was a mistake, and old material we shod not pay attention. t next year of it the same. so, we -- look, it is not exclusively a muslimrobl, 400 years ago, my fellow call calvinist protestants were burning witches in salem, massachusets. john: what is your point on war on terror. >> at least in part really important to realize that there is an idealogical side. it is not just random violence, we need to get it straight, not get bged down on a nonsensible ible notion of buying politically correct. john: what do you want to do? killhem all ?

>> of course not, you nee to start out by not being politically correct, understandin where some of the movements come from. and some of is some parts of islam, we need to beandid about that. john: saudis have a b education campaign, wahhabi schools they teach stuff like that to kill homosexuals. these people are our partners supposedly. >> about 1 to 2% of muslims saudis control, and where the rah habes are doing -- rah habe wahhabis are doing writing and teaches is hostile to other religions, in forms of advocating violence in the form of jihad and so for. john: we'reot going to bomb all these people. we can't convinchem to be more openinded.

what do you want to d >> i want us toe able to drive on something other than oil products. we need to be able to tell opec, that we do not have to keep shipping them money in order to drive our cars and our trucks. so you say we can't kill them b we can bankrupt them? >> i suggest we need to do is to take away the power of mopoly, that lets oil dominate -- transportation t to opportunity about 97% that would indirectly encourage people likehe saudis and others to actually work for a living, rather than lifting oil for $2 a barrel, and selling it to us for $102. john: what about what president said about bringing drone war down. and should we be spending what we're pending now on thear

against terror? >> well, a drone is a weapon. and think of it as a flyg sniper in a way. you have i think aot less collateral damage if you attack al qaeda leader with a drone than if you attack him with a bomb. john: do we need to spend what we're spending? >> i think that we may need to spend more, we may be able it get by with less, point is to figure out what it takes to win. and spend that. john: thank you ambassador wosey. >> thank you. john: i want america to have a strong military that protects us from fanatics who want to kill us. ut how big a military is tha we now spend almost $800 billion on defense. abt a fifth of our budget. chris prebbl e . at cato institute,aid, that is

way too much? >> it i more than we spend at peak of cold war, when ronald reagan was fighting the soviet union. john: cato, your think tan made this video that compares our military spending that that of our allies. >> every year u.s. spends -- our alli spend a quarter or less to defend tmselves. we agree to pay big bucks to defend our friends, and they let us. that allows our friends to spend far more on everything els we pick up the tab for global security spending, and our allies free re. >> they are freeloading off of us, we're skers? >> we are suckers. i don't blame them, if i was in their situation, ii someone else

offered to pay fory secity i would let them too, that is what our allies have done. after world war ii they were shattered by war, but somewhere alon the line, they got rich, weidn'tevisit why we continue to defend them, when they can defend themselves. john: all right they probably will not do all thing that we want our military to do. and that list is long. we want to kill terrorists, and trainoreign military to kill terrorists. >> some couries are very good at that, some better than us. many of the successful operations against al qaeda have been y other organizations other militaries and hor countries -- other countries in cooperation with us, it is in the fair to think they are not incled to defend themselves if we were not helng them. john: people want the military to do more protect other countries from aggressio t toontain china an and -- to conn

china and iran. >> i think that china is the big ogeyman out there, chinese military spendg is second to the world, but we're discouraging china's neighbors from doing more to defend themselves. i think that is short-sighted. john: iran, threatens nuclear bomb and do who bes what. >> they don't have a nucar bomb, china does. a few others have them, ran does not iran ii tiny relative to the threat sposedly posed by china, we node to put them in persctive. john: we want navy to protect - >> they defend the sea lanes from interception or disrupted. but, free seas are a benefit to many people, few people would benefit from closing them, thecally that would like to ose them like al qaeda can't. john if we d that, we would spend what? >> quite a bit less, i think a good rule of thumb, what we were

spending around time of 9/11 attacks today is about $450 billion. that is a od start. back then we were stillg other t could defend themselveses, if we stopped that we could spend less. john: we wou be safe? >> absolutely. >> thank you, up next more wars like that war over what you will eat. >> we don't just want them labele we' them gone. john: and the war on hate, itself. >> we should be treated the same with the same laws andame punishment for the same crimes.

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john: did you see headlines senars blast apple. congress went to wargain that evil technology company. >> apple is one of the biggest tax avoiders in america. >> most of your profits worldwide are sitting this three irish companies that you control that don't pay taxes. john: so on. but wait. apple created maybe 600,000 jobs in america. moreover seas. a huge a of new wealth. apple tries to avoidaying

taxes,heir account anes tell them to because american taxes are crazy, they and i avoid legally, won't any politician stand up for a business that makes anpatrol yeah, the appropriate response to big intrusive government, one senator spoke up. >> i am offended by tone and tenor of this hearing, by spec able else was dragging in executives from an american company that is not doing anything illegal, i say instead of applicatives -- executivese should have brought in a giant mirror to look at the reflect of congress, this is created by awful tax code. >> way to go. senator rand paul joins us now. did you take drive for saying that rom your colleagues like mccain? >> they may not have been too happyith me, i was not happy

with the proceeding. it is an insul to make corporation officers come in raise their right-hand, and read them the riot act for doing wt everybod ee does, who wants to come forward and say you want a chief financial officer who maximized your tax bill, i asked a professor, do you take deducts on your taxes do you minimize your tax bill legally, they all answered yes, it was insults to apple, they are largest corporate taxpayer in our country, we should give them an work war foraying so many -- award for paying so many taxes and creating s many jobs. john: i am glad you complained about this attitude of bringing in the ceo to kneel before congress, apple popular, but if you have a company that makes pespesticide and an oil company,

they try to destroy you. >> they say we didn't subpoena them. but quietly they say, if you don't come in we will. that committee, is one of few committees in congress that has power to subpoena,o one the say no. but i thought it was insulting they are great innovors that have created jobs and pay a lot in taxes if you want them to bridge home worldwide profits from sales overseas let's make the tode fair. there are examples that are working. john: and when your colleagues chew out compapanies and compln about their profit with aer. ear . >> i told them they need to bring a mirror, i imagined how funny it would be to have a 12 by 12 mirror, and have them look

in this mirror to find the problem. two leaders of that committee, republican and democrat, they have been up here for 30 years, they preside over the tax code it their baby, if it forces money to go overss, john: am i being unfairhen i against business.ave a war >>here is an attitude, like a hearing on apple. we should do, if we had a president whoas a great leader, he should fly out to apple headquarter, congratulate themor being a great american company and company, say what can you do to help you, to allow you to bri more money home, what tax rate would help that. we should do that to every successful american company stead of dgging them into washington. and excoriating them, saying they are not paying their fair share, the same with wealthy

people in the country, instead saying howo weunish you. john: thank you, senator rand paul. >> thank you, john. john: coming up, another kind of war, a war on certain kinds of speech. even thought up meeting a lot more people but a friend under water is something completely different. i met a turtle friend today so, you don't get that very often. it seemed like it was more than happy to have us in his home. so beautiful. avo: more travel. more options. morere personal. whatev you're looking for expedia s more ways to help you find yours.

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>> whenever i hear about a hate crime, i am shocked and saddened. >> i give a damn, do you? john: i give a damn, i am horrified wn people are victimized. on the surface i should belad that america wages a war on hate. andhat is how is it should be says paul, who runs fighting discrimination program at a drop called human rights first, but jimmy,ofounder of go proud, a republican gay advocacy group,

says that hate cme laws are not useful. how can you s that? you have been a victim? hav >> absolutely, i was on a bike a year ago, a guy came out in to street, in a pack of kids he punched me and called me a anti-gay name. i was reaching for my phone, and one of the other kids, asked him, is he going for gun, i let them think that. it w that thought that i might have a weapon that turned the tide. and prevented me from bei a victim of a horrible crime. jo: why not more protect with hate cme laws? >> well, i just tony think there is -- don't think there is evidence they are preventing crimes before they happen. we need to focus on that, we can't ignore fact that certain

segments of the populatn are targets of violent crime simply for who they are. we need to come up with ways to help prevent people from becoming vicms of crime, ther than giving them a false nse ofsecurity that there is a law. >> i would like to jump i i don't believe tha hate crime laws are the sold answer to hate cre, i think we're inrime, first main -- in agreement that violent attacks that target people because of their idtity, runs family contrary to -- fundamentally contrary to american values, hate crime as a concept is under tonderstan john: why? hate is in so manyrimes. >> hate crime is perhaps a misnomer, there are biassed crimes where people are targed because of their identity, hate crimes embed in criminal justice system notion of a hate crime,

it requiresaw enforcement to document them, understand them, to identify them. ando release -- prosecute them includin in some cases with enhanced penalties, it requires them to release data on annual bases on level of hate crime that creates a broader understandin in society about what needs to be done. john: but we're drowning in-laws already inmerica. we have civil rightsablable, ane -- civil rights act, and violent crimes act. >> stable at a high level. a report -- >> does the law make a difference >> it does. >> does the person think oh, that is a hate crime law. >> i had a conversationith a

transgender woman in cifornia, she said, it does not matter what theaw says, no law will change the fact, that some people look at me, they see a man in a dress, that will change with time and understanding that is the difference we're having, we're not disagreeing over fact there is a problem, we're disagreeing over the fact that the government the solution on this. john: the example reminds me of th contoargs police go through to be politically correct about this, fbi now has a hate crime manual, say avoid offense of terms. what a they supposed to say. >> i think people feel when they are a v victim of a crime, we wt assess to in which -- we want a soety where they are comfortable going to law enforcement. if they don't trust law enforcement to understand their

victimization. >> i am for being sensitive to victims it ismportant. but i don't think it matters what you call somebody, let's focus on picies and things we can do to prevent from calling them a victim. john: this antihate crime commercial, actress wanda sykes said >> imagine walking down the street, wondering if this the killed?ill get beaten up or because of who you are. >> i would say to wanda, is passing a law goingo change fact that some people walk down the street and wonder they will be attacked because of who the are? i don't think that law has anything to do with it, it is raising awareness not penalties. >> and again, it may not be that every potential victimf a hate crime walks down the street in fear, but religious people may not go to mass or synagogue as

they might like imarat kavkaz >> it runs contrary to our freedom of movement, that is a fundamental principle here in the u.s. >> we need to focus to what will help prevent those. john: do you think we have too many laws. >> i don't think we don't have enough hate crime laws. >> on that, paul and jimmy tha you. i am ending this segment with my point of view, expressed by america's greatest philosophers, the kids from "south park." >> cartmanhrows a rack at te an a black student. e school plan its give cartman two weeks detention. but then fbi came, to say. >> i'm afraid it is more camp kateed complicated since the victim is african-american this is considered a hate crime. >> what turns a normal fat 8-year-old until a vicious hate

ime racist? >> you want to hurt another human being, y better make sure they are the same color as you are. >> kids complaint to the government nir. >> if someone -- governor. >> if someone kills someone it is a crime, but if they kill somebody of a different color it is a hate crime. >> that is hypocrisy. >> right on kids. i wonder what they wld say about war on drugs. >> this is your brain on drugs, any questions. john: that war, and on certain food. >> nt. the boys used double les from the capital one venture card to fly home for the big family reunn. you must be garth's father? hello. mother. mother! traveling is easy with the venture card because you can fly airline anytime. two words. double miles! this guy can act. wanna play dodge ck? oh, you gu! and with double miles you can actuay use,

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john: the war on food. food? , what war? i can eat what i want? exceptaw milk and 15 stes, in my town, tran fatsre illega the bigger fight is war on something that sounds scary,

gmo foods. >> we don't want them labeled we want them gone, people are getting sick. john: people are getting very sick? gmo stands for jeenetically modified. most corn is. you eat is already, this is a product of years of selective breeding, corn was muc smaller than this, and less juicy, but, it means that scientists figured out a way to changeood by manipulates individual genes. th have a gene that makes it taste bad to insects. here is an example of a genetic modification that may not be sold in america, these fish are 18-month-old salmon. but the big one was modified to

grow twi as fast. allowing this would mean cheaper salmon we don't he that, company that engineers fish is waiting for approval are regulators, they have been waiting 20 years keep it away said jeff smith. who runs instead for responsible technology. >> and let it in said jason lusk author of the food police. >> there is the version of natural food is a mystery, we've be modifying food sinceumans have been on the plat. the ear of corn, ancnt ancestor is no bigger than your hem. only selecting andlanting -- >> but gmo is monkeying with the gene?

>> all selection is playing with genes whether you pick this one and put it together, that traditional plant beding involves many thousands of genes we don't know what is gng to happen. mode biotechnology is picking one or two genes, to put to an ear of corn, i is more precise. >> it should make it safer? jeffy? >> well, fda scientists were clear in memos made public from a lawsuit, they said process of genetic engineering is different, and leads to new and defense risks new smyrns newalld toxins, but person in crge of policy at fda was michael taylor, mont monsanto former attorney, and now president. >> monsanto captured the f . this agency, and they are just in the tank with big business? >> month stan to has capture --

monsanto has done the same to many countries they have their people -- >> that makes me sense cal skepf you not them. you look the every scientific authority on subject, whether u.s. national academy of sciences, and world health organization, food and these a all independent bies of independent scientists, every one of those has confirmed that basic safety of biotech food, there has not been a single scientisticly confirmed case of illness or a annaller join. >> since gmos have been introduced a whole news s of

diseases and disorders on the rise, these are the what pents and doctors say, they take them themselves or family off of gmo they get better, but when they take livestock off of the soy or corn, and shift it over, livestock get better, that corn in yourand for example, does not taste bad to insects it pokes holes in their cells and killing them, new a study, finds that same toxic inte insecticide pokes homes in human cells and causes leakage. >> you are dng is throwing in a lot of corporational analysis -- justin bieber songs are correlated with a risen

autism, ofourse, not, if its true they ar so bad for livestock or livestock producers must be stupid. john: they must be dumb but beyond bands there is an in between point, a commercial from aroup who said if it is je genetically mifies label it. >> put it on the label, made with gmos. >> jason that seems reasonable. >> right, i have no problem with companies voluntarily labeling food, greathing for consumer choice, you want to avoid a gmo you have opportunities,uy organics. but there are a lot of companies that make nongmo claims do we want to main -- mandate, require companies, trouble is that fda

mandates putting a label john: it would scare consumers. >> i is misleading consumers to believing something that is false. john: whole foods said they will do it voluntarily. jeff is this enough for you? >> no, i think we need to actuly ban gmos, evidence is ear from independent scientists, hever, when speaking about labeling, it is not responsible to force gmos on the population, right now for example, wic programam gives 2 million children, infant formulvery one of those is geneticallally engineered and parents do not know. >> one of most gmo activists, came outo at a conference in

oxford, and sid he dugnto the scientific literature and he was wrong. john: thank you, to you both. comingp, war on drugs. new scare isver meth. and the psa the kids keep watching television while their friend convulses on the floor. >> this isn't normal. an but but on meg, it is. -- but on meth it is. >> really? is that normal? what you thi you know. may not be so. [ male announcer ] with fe packagpiup

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>> this is your brain on drugs. any questionst was one of the ft commercial that warned people about drugs, they amped it up. >> wait. it's not overet. >> this is what your family goes through, and your friends and your mind. and your fute. any questions? john: i have some, i know, some

drug users put themselves and their families through hell. bu if illegal drugs are as horrible and addictive as we've been told how come government's own statistic said millions of americans have used those drugs butta small percentage still use them, author of high price, that challenges everything you know about drugs and society, says drugs are not as aictive or as dangerous as government, med va made thehave made them out t. carl hart, why should we believe you, you look like arug dealer. >> drug dealers must be attractive as hell these days, i have been studying drugs for 20 something years, and t effects of drugs in people. john: at colbia university, you briing people in for tests. >> like marijuana,

methamphetamin crack cocai. the data shows that the vast majority of people who use these drugs do not go on to become addicted. some of these people who have used these drugs go to to be president. current president. before the curb know president, george w. bush. bill clinton,ll of though guys have used illegal drugs at some point inheir life. john: all we know for sure, is that they used weed and maybe dabbled in cocaine, in a couple cases. the message now is that crack, and meth, it gets worse, and it is those are just, they automatically hook you. >> same thing was said about marijuana, in 1930s, people said, you go o to use this drug, you go to commit murder, and use heroine. reason that it was allowed to happen there were few people who used marijuana. the same is true when we think of drugs like crack coke, and

methamphetamine. not as many people use those drugs, so the rest are the stories, can be made up about these drugs. because, people do not know. but, i have given thousands of doses of these drugs in m study, and i am her here to telu that the public has been misled. john: in your laboratory? you get the drugs legally. they let have you them, and you advertise? and bring users in, you recreate absolutely. >> we jump through levels of approval, we recruit participants by craigslist or advertise in the village voice. john: crack user come on in? >> well we say people who have used cocaine before, yes, that is right. >> and i'm looking at government's statistics here, of number of people who tried drugs and used in last month. and it seems like 95% of the people, give itp, most

addictive seem to be marijuana and pain relievers, where 86% use it in last month. >> yes, so i guess when you say most people give it up, i don't know if that a way to really talk about this. you don't necessarily have to give it up to use the drug without problem, there is a -- there are the vast majority of people who use drugs like cocaine, use it on weekend, or, you -- a monthly basis or use it on every 6 months or something. they ho jobs, and pay taxes they do all those things. similar way we use drugs like alcohol, these - the body does not recognize tha psycho active drug is legal or illegal. john: crack and meth are no worse. >> the problem that makes crack cocaine could and methamphetamine so dangerous, is what they are cut with.

whereas alcohol we're pretty sure what you get is pure. john: most demonized drug today is meth, you see pictures of s meth users with no teeth this drug, @% just more in horrible, and a. we show me spell users who -- ms who watcher tv while their friend convulses on the floor. >> this isn't normal, but on meth, it is. john: propaganda? >> that is purexaggratn. that does so much harm. because, people actually think that they are getting drug ucation by watching those commercials, i can't say this strongly enough. there are few things that have done more harm to our drug public education than commercials like that. >> kidding tune the government

out. >> not only that they tune out peopleike me, anybody who has dr education. they think tha it is untrue. becausef the lack of credibility that we now have as a result of the government with these hist ter holcombmercials. john: what does more harm to america, drugsr drug war? >> now, one thing i one make clear, drugs whether alcohol or crack coke am they should be takenner russly. -- they should be taken seriously, they can produce harm, but the drug w is unquestion abily that drug war has condition m done more harm c community. reason why it is allowed to coinue, the harm it does, or that the major portions of harm, is happening in communities we don't care about as a country.

john: dr. carl hart thankou. next. my take on the government's wars, and the irs scandal. wars, and the irs scandal. symptoms of the same [old eovermany discounts to declarethine customers!brought [old engli accent] sa driver, multi-r, paid in full -- a most fulsome bounty indeed, lord jamie. thou cometh and we thy saveth! what are you doing? we doth offer so many discounts, we have some to spare. oh, you haveny of those homeowners discounts? here we go. thank you. he took my shield, my lady. these are troubling times in the kingdom. more discounts than we knoweth what to do with. now that's progressive.

♪ when you recognize something isn't right, make the call to the veterans crisis net 1-800-273-8255 and press 1. john: our last guest said that kids tune out the government's message about drugs, because government laws credibility, for years they told kids, if you do

drugs, you are going to die. they saw their friends tie drugs and they were okay, they were skeptical, the shoul like the oxiclean guy, it better be true or you will not listen next time. but gernment never goes out of business. it fails at nation building in vietnam but trying again in iraq, it wages a war against hate, a war on drugs, it wages war against certain food. goeso war against almost everng business. apple paysaxes but, as cartoonist, points out big government wants to take much more, the politicians demand more of our money, sayinge'll accomplish wonderful things with it. there has been so much fuss about eric holder, and just who

in the irs targeted tea party groups. will they be fired? will behere a special prosecutor? my apologies to my closing, but i d't care. who is fired or punished. it is not important, theirob will be given that another bureaucrat, some will be honest, some will be not, the bigger oblem is that government employees 22 million people, 21 million if you subtract military and post offi, that is millions and millions of people who are -- well, people. most are good but some are bad. and people in government, have a legal right to use force. big government, gives millions of people power over parts of ourives, most will not abuse it. but poker does corrupt. -- power does corrupted, small be bad pple. they will use their pow torii hunterture people they don't like. people who hold wrong belief or

talk back. some of you willot get building permits, maybe you will be audited or denied a tax exemption, firing an attorney general will not change, that on smaller government can, but we don't have smaller government. we have big government. because when there is a problem people say, yes, we can. that ishy i wrote, no, they can't. because government cannot. it should not tries. and more things it goes to war against the more is grows the worse off we are while government condition w come millions of americans give up drugs most without help, scientists experiment with food, and we live longer. companies try to minimizedheir taxes, and then use the money to produce wonderful things. individuals do, that we can.

but no, they can't. thats sour show -- this is our show, thanks for watching. >>. show, thanks for watching. >> tom: we have a lot to cover on this show. obamare is going to cost a t more than thought but i want to start with the econo. are cities and counties recovering financially are the promises they made going to raise youraxes? i'm going tosk a woman that called the wall street meltdown meredith whitney right here and right now. >> tom: thanks for joining us. here at the top of the stack. in october o 2007 meredith whitney was if the tiors point out the big banks were in troub. she was right.