biggest, one of the biggest companies in the world. let's be his partner. >> neil: and never invest in anything charles says. that will do it here. cost of freedom continues now. ♪ fighting back afr being singled out by the i.r.s. >> what is intolerable is one set of rule for one side of the political fight and another set of rules for the other. >> since may of 2011, i have been dormant not only out of the inability to raise money but abject fear government had a target on my back. >> i want to protect and preserve the america i grew up in. the america that people cross oceans and riskheir lives to become a part of. i'm terrified it's slipping away. leader conservative groups testifying how the i.r.s. went afr them. the agency is supposed to follow the money. and the rule of law. but did the victims just prove the tax man was playing politics? hi, everybody.

good to be with you. i'm liz macdonald in for david asman. welcome to "forbes on fox." go in fous with -- steve, what doou think? >> obviously, it politics. they went after the organizations to make sur they didn't rticipate in the 2012 elections. they went far beyond just doing routine audit. they did not target liberal groups. this is going to end up in washington, elizabeth and it will have a special prosecut and be as big as w watergate. it was bad stuff. not a handful of enemies but anyone put their head above the parapit. >> so there is politics in play? >> there may be but i take exception saying it will end up in w fashioned about this. i actually think there needs to bevidence before you can evict somebody. so far there is no evidence that even pu at a lower level of washingn. let alone the pele that y might want to seeet tagged with this. >> sabrina, today on --

yesterday, friday. there is a report out that actlly there is evidence that i.r. was dictating what was going on in cincinnati. reuters is rorting that. the two cincinnati workers saying that yes, the i.r.s. was telling them in d.c. what to do. what do you think? >> think that we will see more evidence coming out. this is not about the rule of law. th is about the obama administration trying to control the flow of information. i am sensing a pattern here between the i.r.s. scandal, the media tracking scandal, the n.s.a. now, you know, spying on the average americans. this is, this is an administration that wan to control the flow of informaon. it's suddenly coming to head here with the i.r.s. scandal. i couldn't agree with steve more about this. >> you know, morgan, here is the deal. conservative groups, of course they have to be questio like everybody else. but they were in question like everybody else. they were basically asked about their book they were reading. meetings, donors. ten democrats had pressurethe

i.r.s. to do more. senators levin said basically why is the i.r.s. being so passive? al franken and schumer threatened the i.r.s. with legislation if they didn't act. go ahead. >> yeah, this is a politil issue. how can it not be a political issue. or no other reason than you talk about the tax except status for the organizations that identify themselve politically. whether this is a one-sided witch hunt, how far back to washington this goes. a lot of that remains to be seen. ill's rather unformnate. the bigger issue for me is 501 is an area of murky super secretive area for campaign funding which is what they are not supposed to be. the primary purpose is not supposed to be. all of that is clouded over. pty democratic liberal conservative. all of that is crowded over by the scandal. >> but you didn't see -- you didn't see words like progressive moveon.org, the key words. you didn't see the key words

the i.r.s. was using to target groups. no liberal witnesses were presented. progressive group prented the house ways and means hea aring. >> this is political. >> the government unaccountable and not liked by outside groups are going to investigate those groups. so i think the i.r.s. action arere scandalous but the true scdal here to me is that t i.r.s. exists to begin with. >> that is interesting what you said. i want to turn back to the witnesses. who testified. let's take it again. >> maybe they were coming do hard on you because so many of you were plying for statu at the same time. that is their argument. what do you say in response?

>> there were progressive groups. they weren't looked at, as closely as we were. >> t complainers could have savedded themselves grief they took "tea party "out of the occupation and put innocuous name and called themselves coition for healthcare outreach or called themselves americans for big government. they could ve done whatever they want to do. the big scand is c-3 to get tax deduction for giving them money. the scandal is overtly partisan groups set up semi-awsemi-autonomous to getax deductib donations >> but the problem is -- here is the thing. sierra club does this. >> but it's both sides of the political aisle. we have have to go to 2010. the context, the president was basically claiming that

foreign operatives were pouring in the noprofit sector and getting themselves involved in the u.s. election system. what do you make of that? >> i think the "wall street journal" pointed out this wasn'ter is ra tissue "se"rapticious. this was political and one-sided. ink blot it goes wider and wider and wider like waterga wateate. >> what do you make of carl levin saying to the i.r.s., you're being pssive. senator franken and others say we'll pass legislation if you don't respond the way you want. >> what i make is if that what they did -- >> there is evidence. they have letters.

take it up with them. but this is not clear it went to the top. there isn't evidence tocanide it that. stop with t propaganda -- >> b wait. hold on. not propaganda. it is. >> the president removed the leader of the i.r.s. commission head. we have a d.o.j. criminal probe. if it's not an issue why doing that. >> how can you say he is involved? it's a high level you have to have the d.o.j. to act. go ahead, sabrina. >> if it weren't for the tea rty, the republicans wouldn't have had the landslide victory they did in the 2010 mid-term. there are operatives in the wte house looking to 2014 to think we need to mzzle conservatives now. if it's the case that the citins united increased the volume of c-3s, i am ahead of one. i hope the conversation doesn't tar all c-3s. but if we have increase in c-3

and c 4, we need transparent system to pull sun seth of applications. we have can't target specific groups. >> leigh it there. healthcare law prome to bring down cost. the very people meant to health proving costs on the way up? >> reduces most people's premiums. bring down the deficit by $1 trillio because we spend the healthcare dollars wisely. eter.

back to "forbes"n business.

♪ >> the healthcare law was all about lowering cost and getting the uninsured insure but a new survey says whopping two-third of those who don't have a health plan yet may not buy one at all. steve, you say this is going to cost us all. explain. >> well, if they don't get everyone in to this thing obously they will have more costs. what they designed in a way younger people with the subsidiaries pay more than they should in a normal free market. so younger people at least initially will say they catch me i'll pay the small fine, not pay $5,000 to $7,000. if you go on the exchanges to do the apples to apples comparison, california and oregon, kaiser permante plan you find out you will pay more in exchange than on the free market. the government puts in stuff most people don't think. >> rick, what do you think? >> i don't know where to begin. it's not true what steve said. the california exchange range come in better than expected

and pople under 25 with mean income is $25,000 qualifying a large percentage of them for subsidies will pay lesshan ey have to pay now. >> overall, what are they 30% more? >> no. here is the other part of this, though. this poll that came out that you refer to saying 65% don't know if they are going to sign up, you know what? i wish i had a nickel for every call i get, i'm turning 65 in a week. how does medicare work? people haven't focused on this yet because exchange don't open until october. talk about this when that comes and people think about it. >> it takes a long time get covered. >> costs are going up because this is not insurance. insurance is historically cheap you buy something for the unthinkable. politicians with obamacare want to us have insurance, to pay for every malady. they want it to be that we can show up and get insurance when

we are alrey sick. th is not insurance sot's expensive. >> didn't kathleen sebelius say premiums are going up? so did the cbo. what do you make of it? >> it's se to say that the premiums will go upor some people. how much and what it will look likend topeople it will go up, i think alot remains to beeen. going back to rick's point and the exchanges don't open up for enrollment in october, a lot -- i think there is a lot more miles per hours to focus on. they are focusing on before they start to look at this. we have the jobs numbers out. we still ha 20% of young adults without jobs. they are looking to get the jobs before they start to think about the enrolling on the exchanges. i think it's still premature. we have have the debt ceiling debate coming up before this takes place. >> right. premature to figure out -- i hear wha you are saying. >> here is the thing. the poll results show less than half of the people

responding. less that half thinkhey ll get better healthcar and about half think it will get more difficult to get tests. what do you ma of the results there? >> i think that costs are going to come in less than expected. nybody with a sense expect the cost to triple. they are going double. [ laughter ] >> we have a system that you take something that used to cost money and now it ll be "free. "it has to go up. >> sabrina go ahead. >> the big problem is the government mandateeop buy something they don't need. the my mum essential coverage is so gh that we are telling people they have to buy a five bedroom house when they need a one-bedroom apartment. >> what do you mean that they may not need? >> if you are a young man who just graduated college you don't need all the bells and whistles. you don't need all sort of coverage. they dot need to cover m to have a baby. he probably has college lns and other debt he may need to

pay off but instead he is subsidizing me. >> how could you possibly know if you are going to get a cancer diagnosis next week? number one. >> that is katz catti catastropc coverage. >> that is the point. >> everybody thinks what john just said. it is absolutely untrue you can get sick then get insurance. there is an open enrollment period. it will start in october. it will finish on marm 31 next year -- march 31 next year. if you don't buy insurance you can't buy it until the next enrollment period. >> it stinks. >> otherwise everybody would wait. >> john has it right, this is not insurance at all. it's prepaying next year's expense. for younger person that is true. you want kitkati catastrophic coverage. you should choose what you wa. >> we have the leave it there. next up, privacy concerns erupting over reports that the government is snooping. just about everything. phone calls, e-mail, credit cards, you name it. should you fear it?

th "cashin' in" crew on it at the bottom of the hour. up next, after three months of protestshe t.s.a. keeps fixing the plan to allow all knives back on plans. that's not good enough for some at "foes" who say we need to deep six the t.s.a. are they right or wrong?

♪ ♪ t.s.a. not okay.

the transportation security administration backtracking on its plan to let small knives, baseball bats d other banned items back on airplanes. an idea that many airline employees and travelersaid was very dangerous. sabrina, you say this is why airpo security should be privatized. explain. >> yeah, this i one more example. i don't think anyone on the panel here today thinkshat, you know, asking mom to take the little booties off the baby are making me carrying my manicu scissors keeping us safer. it's probably make us ls safe to make it systemized and sort of regularized that terrorists or people wanting to hurt the system knows exactly what we're doing. we should try out new screening technique. >> are airports privatizedded and it is working nicely? >>yeah. the problem is the logic fails here.

you privatize every airport you decide if you want knives on a plane. you can't say you can take them on in detroit but not in l angeles. i don't know let me why they won't let me take a golf cb. i'm mo dangerous if i was on an airplane. >> but it's scary for the flightttendants and passengers to think a lunatic could have a knife or y weapon on board. yes, the cockpit doors are strengthped but what about the st of the people on the plane? >> especially when you have a delay an tempers are rising up. you don't want anything in people's hands. or a drink. >> or golf club. >> right. >> the bottom line, privatized airports are mentally more efficient than those that aren't. san francisco versus l.a. san francisco is 50 to 70% more productive though they pay the same wages and go f the same training.

operate under the same ancy. this is privatize the t.s.a. set sndards as the f.a.a. does but let companies figure out how to do it more efficiently and come up with innovation. >> this peoples li fly the unfriendly skies. >> the america doe't protect passengers it goes out of business. if the t.s.a. doesn't protect it, it gets more taxpayer money to expand bureaucracy. the profitotive is pathto innovation. >> let the airlines compete. >> you tepe t.s.a. there to oversee and set regulations and you bring private sector workers in to operate at the airport. we are seeing more and more airports apply to have it at

their location. john micah, the granddaddy of t.s.a. is proposing this as well. >> i agree. ultimately weant the keep americans safe. so unless we have marketplace to try different things out we ar seing ourselves up for a disaster. >> john, tammy, do you think we are setting ourselves up for a disaster? >> always. because you are asking the least qualified people to protect us. that usually endsn disaster scenario. bring it back to market. >> least qualifieded. what do you think? >> itwould be the same people. they would work for private firm. >> be careful with the coparison. they run far fewer flights than we do in the united states. they can do things differently. >> a lot of people in washingn,.c. say that el a does it great. >> they do. >> we shoulattern our airlines. >> but we have it in our country. like san francco and los angeles. so again, s the standards on training and things like that. let othther companies figure out how to do it efficiently.

>> the time word. >> the t.s.a. carts in a lot of employees which is a reason it's much zo much more expensive. >> interesting. oming up, looking for a great gift for the high school grad? we have the stuff ready to help them. you are going to profit. that's next. @í0x;ñt

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a second reason is the ceo is embroiled in a scandal. >> all right. that is it for "forbes on fox." thank you for watching. keep it here, number onebusinesh eric bolling and "cashin' in." ♪ >> they finally got it. i'm so proud. they are ready for anaheim. [ applause ] >> yep, living it up amid the crackdown. i.r.s. employeeses dancing the night away. and showing silly star trek videos at a la victim junct, all the while tax officials target conservative group. we know how much it cost all taxpayers. you won't be dancing with joy. the government is dialing up more controversy. this time unclal sam getting info from major internet companies. microsoft, yahoo, goggle, facebook. apple. oh, and they are seizing your phone records, too. is your personal information at risk? "cashin'