lou: all of the rat traps that we just end up making for smarter rats. welcome, everybody, i am neil cavuto. after all of the scandal revelations in these elaborate systems to go after bad guys, the bad guys get smarter and avoid them. congressman mike rogers isn't giving any specifics but he is saying that they are changing their behavior by apparently not using the technologies on which we are spying. whether that means we are not sending text messages, i frankly

have no idea, but it is pretty clear that the bad guys are finding other ways. so we are very much on the line. all of these phone call breeches and e-mail breeches and text bridges and all of it for for nothing. the guy who leaked them, far from here. edwards noted in asking for protection from the chinese government. i think it's it is safe to say that the chinese will comply and it is probably not to his liking. to the military experts who say@ that that is what happens when stuff like this gets out, the former assistant seccetary of defense is that once it is out, we always have another way to move around. wayne simmons is with us.

he has a hard handshake and he can crush you with that. [applause] >> let's get to it. onceethis gets released, any smart bad guys going to find a way around this, right? >> absolutely. not only a way around it, but in the past were either criminal organizations were terrorists found out, sometimes they find a way to track our communities but dismantled organization with what they believed to be what we know about. not only do we have to find them again, but we have to figure out who to find and what networks and groups to find again. lou: you are saying that he was a hero.

but no, he is not. how do you feel? >> i am confident that my position has only been strengthened since we ound out that he's being debriefed by the intelligence apparatus. this is absolutely spot on when she says that it's very damaginn. because what is out there in the united states or around the world, the first thing that they do are using human capabilities which are messages being used and sent by runners as opposed to getting on the phone or getting on the internet. it is going to make our job much more difficult, especially since we no longer ave the human intelligence capabilities that we once had.

neil: worthiest strategies or methods, the iphone records, were they crucial in tracking down bad guys? >> i guess we had this with the boston bombings and that did not stop the two brothers. >> i do not have inside information in this particular program. but being able to track the communications not only those within and passing to the united states, but is not a data is critical not only to identify and track and have insight into what these organizations are doing, but in the case of the bombings and other activities that we did not get ahead of. to go back and see what did we miss and how do we reestablish and get insight into possible future activity?

nnil: i know you're talking about those who were harming us and wanted to do this to kill us. but i think that it is a good thing that this came to light. in the name of protecting us, my immediate reaction was what is this all about. so i'm going to ask you that. what the heck is this all about. say what you will about the bad guys and now we will find ways around it. why was this happening in the first place and to what end. how could it possibly be good. >> happily i will do so. >> i will say that the concerns are justified. i have no reason to think that

those americans feel the way you do, but they are not justified. i will tell you this. this goes back directly ,-com,-com ma in my opinion, directly to not only bruce allen, but the cia and at the nsa. because we have programs called counterintelligence risk indicators. those are programs that are being consistently and constantly run against our own people. only to continue to monitor them with a top-secret clearance. especially those that have access to intelligence and they need to continue to monitor. so they can find out if our standards have changed. that is where i have the biggest problem is we want to counter that, we have too many people talking about that. we have 1.4 million americans

have the ability to do what snow today. but there are a lot of people who have a lot of good. >> most people understand that they are compartmented. which means that they are segregated. neil: you don't think they're more there are more like him? >> i hope that there are not a lot more like him. >> okay. well, maybe you can kick butt here. >> be careful. >> i could imagine. thank you both very much. the congressman is trying to doesn't go overboard. we have a bill in the congressman is explaining what

this bill is about. >> thank you for having me on again. it is a bill that i'm working on with john conyers, he is the ranking democrats. we have a lot of cosponsors and what we are trying to do is narrow the scope of the patriot act so that it is only targeting the people that we want to target, foreign agents. neil: how would you know? >> you may not know that the innocent party is the culprit. >> under the way it is being interpreted, they are treating all americans this way. that is why when you hear this, it is being done under the patriot act. whether that is being figured as relevant information, even though all of those people and most of the people, most of them

have no ties to terrorism. neil: as you know, i play an expert on tv. [laughter] neil: i think i qualify. >> i think by trying to hold back on this sweeping spying of everyone, you end up missing a lot of folks by bringing it back to just the folks who you think are potential people. >> we have a fourth amendment and we have to follow it. you can also eliminate all terrorism within the united states by having this. they can watch everyone's family all day. neil: i had joe lieberman on the phone and he was with me last night. you know, i can't get into specifics, but i can tell you that this very program has led to trouble.

you know, you never know. but now you rein it in. i am with you on this. heaven knows what will come our way. >> you cannot use anecdotes to justify this. the reason the founders put in place is to protecc our rights. there is a balance between security and liberty. it is presented in the constitution and the fourth amendment.@ that is what we want to protect. it is important to note that a lot of members of congress aren't even given access to the law because the secret court opinions -- we do not know unless you are on this committee. we do not know how the law is actually working. neil: will be part of the powwow of the individuals? >> it has not changed my mind.

if anything, it has emboldened me. we have classified briefings. there are documents that we would want access to. though that i'm working on with representative conyers, it would provide us critical information so that we can represent our constituents. >> thank you, sir. >> thank you, neil. neil: i have not even gotten into the latest news this week. as we have reported, the very same law that we are coming to find that low-wage workers, they can't afford this. wasn't that the point of was it all just an act? we learned a lot of us hanown someone

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>> there is nowhere to go. i represent this party. you said that the rent is too high. neil: i love that guy. where is this guy when you need him? now, apparently this health care law talks about the uninsured. and many were supposed to help cannot afford it. going onto liz macdonald. scotty, that is incredible. >> it is incredible but expected. we knew that like all escalating problems, affordable health care is just going to sit there. we are making sure that those who cannot afford it could.

neil: the other guys who don't want it, they were going to be part of this, they can't afford it. we turned everything upside down >> it is so high and affordable that it may be out of reach. we have both sides to work out the kinks and now we have the irs it is going to dictate what is affordable and what is adequate coverage as the wave of the future. neil: adam? >> i find this an amusing idea. >> what we have instead is that this care is unaffordable for some of the workers involved. because there was an exception

put in for some of the employers. this was an effort to make this easier.3 this is a piece of legislation that needs work. one among many things that nneds work. >> okay, augment or remove dust and make the insurance affordable. >> we are excusing a lot law that everyone work it out. when it comes loaded with 20 plus taxes. >> you could stop this train wreck even though it is the law of the land. you could stop it now and start start from scratch. >> getting it on track, it's already a train wreck. it never should have gotten out of the nation itself. health insurance is being

governed by the department of health and human services and the irs is policing it. why are we allowing this? nothing made sense about this bill. this is a political stand to try to sit here and take over. including the orders of barack obama continuing to say that he has health care. @% will literally put us in grave. >> okay, it kind of reminds me of this. the fact of the matter is that it has gaping wounds everywhere. >> and feels like that because it seems like there's a ot of band-aids on it. i get it. but that is part of the problem the way that they rammed it through. it is very costly to do that, it puts a lot of this on the irs.

it makes a lot of mistakes that we know and also medicare and a host of other things that the government asks us to do. >> i mean, are you going to have the irs do this to the degree they planned to do it or are you going to find a way to make this more affordable so more participate because you make an exemption for a lot of them. you take that away, part-time, full-time. you see what i'm getting at. you have to undo a lot of this. >> why not look back and say that it's not worth it. try it from scratch. >> well, i'm thinking of a compprison part of the public works project. you cannot un- dig the ditches. i'm not saying this is a perfect piece of legislation.

if we had a number of people who are getting health insurance, which is one of the achievements of the legislation, or killer on the other hand, i understand that you all would like to kill it. i think let's make it better. >> i would just say this. these are the basic points that we have disrupted and upended our entire health care system. we are pretty satisfied with that coverage. for the 10%%who did not, we are not always so keen on this. some are not interested on taking it on. others cannot afford it. all of that for what? >> well, that is the thing that we have to look at. we did this to help our economm. but we have seen is that people are not hiring full-time employees because people are

having two or three part-time jobs because their bosses cannot afford obamacare. we are seeing the unemployment lines growing because of obamacare and we are going to see it even more. neil: you would think that adam would feel guilty, but he does not. >> we did it to give more people access to health care. neil: all of those 10%, they generally weren't always into it. but the bottom line is for what? >> i would just say that we are not done. >> but we should never have let it start. neil: in the meantime, quit complaining about the nsa. we all day theoys used double miles from their cital one venture card

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neil: the next time you are asked whether you should agree to the terms and conditions coming you better read all of them. one of my favorite lawyers says this whole nsa right to spy on to is pretty much all spelledts out there. a teeny tiny black-and-white. >> on the one hand at it like you agree to this. on the other hand it is all in the name of national security. >> where did i agree to this? >> somewhere in the 20 or 30 or 40 pages that you need a triple sized magnifying glass to read, it is in there. but it is so easy these days he

just click on a button. neil: nowhere did it say the nsa can spy on you. but to your point, there are a lot of vague references to the second and third parties. >> we reserve the right. neil: yes, we reserve the right and that is a populaa line. they say that any timm we do this, it will be on this. >> well, there you go. i mean, it is amazing and we take it for granted. >> but if we don't sign that are kept at. >> we don't say that. >> only until there is a problem. once you have a problem in the attorney general's accent, but

consumer would actually be able to read that. it is part of an agreement and you have to agree to make it very easy for someone to read it and understand it and conspicuous enoughhthat it is very important that we pay attention. neil: you know, it is actually spelled out that you signed up for this. but it doesn't say that you might have this where you will have to deal with it. but it is such a broad overview such a warning heads up that almost anything can happen, including getting attacked by aliens. you should just deal with it. >> your liability, and we see %-go right to theeagreement. go to the ticket. there are and limitations of liability.

>> there are many people who are curious. >> so now what do you say to americans? >> someone should step up to the plate and say that i am going to create a new company where you don't have to agree to this. and if anyone makes me, i'm going to say that this is america and you better have a court order signed by a judge. neil: i'm going to make them sign an agreement for me. >> well, maybe two cups and a string will be your phones. [laughter] 's the one i hate lawyers, not like you, but i do hate them. [laughter] neil: thank you so much. well, we are trying to keep

track of these individuals at the irs. will our next guest will talk about this coming out next you hurt my feelings, todd. did? when visa signature asked everybody whatpgded perices really mtered... you suggested luxurcar service instd of "strength training with patck willis." come on todd! flathem chicken wings. [ grunts ] well, i travel a lot and umm... [ male announcer ] at visa signature, every upgredxperience comes frolistening to r cardholders. visa signature. your idea of what a card should be.

neil: we are fixing what you think is just an oil leak.

your brakes are gone. your catalytic converter, maybe ditch the car? between targeting personal health records and thofusing cre just ditch the irs. we have melissa francis here. there is a lot of craziness. >> it is out of control and no one would like to get rid of them more than i would. please do not bother me. neil: look at you. [laughter] >> that is right. obviously it is not going to happen. but it seems like every cabinet we open here, something else comes up. more than a thousand cases in the past two years, they have employees who misuse their corporate credit card for the

irs. they didn't have enough funds in the account to cover it, they did all these things. and then they found that they weren't even punishing them for that they were more lenient with their employers and their employees were with the taxpayer. neil: do you think any of this -- and we talk about a lot of conservative tea party actions the. >> i wish. >> i don't think we will see much of this. >> people keep saying that we have all of these hearings. we are going to have a big reform. i don't think that's going to happen. this is the problem with government. this is why we don't want government -- the person has to be sitting there for it to be spent properly. they are invisible handlers. that is why capitalism works.

so if the guy who owns the store isn't there very often, more candy goes missing. the guy who was working there -- neil: if you are charging $5 for a pack of gum, some people would steal it. >> i don't think we get to the fundamental problem at times great if we don't do that, none of this will change the. neil: yes. >> it was the same thing where we saw headlines of what was going on with our taxpayer money. you laugh and then you cried. neil: so this is kind of frittered away? >> probably not even that. i don't think a lot changes. i think that this is the fundamental problem with government. you put people in charge monitor other people and corruption takes over. >> we forget that right after

watergate, there were all of these, you know, the laws and new rules that were put in. >> they are far away in washington. you can see what these people are doing. otherwise it gets out of control and it is human nature. you cannot help it. neil: lissa francis, thank you so much. this just in, microsoft. excel is coming to the iphone. and the rest comes with it. actually the heat may have only just hit it

neil: this just in. apple is not dead yet. that has not stopped it from hooking up with microsoft in what could be a very big

development. ssecifically, microsoft suite of programs including word and excel are coming to an iphone near you. maybe that comes later with the ipad. we have a guest on whether this opening item confirms that this is that of a copycat. what do you think? >> i think apple is a copycat. >> you are taking a product that everybody doesn't like, you are talking about losing market share. i don't understand why it is a big deal. >> why don't you just play along >> let me show you how it is done. it is heinous because they have to choose this. they are in a position where google is the one who is killing

them. they are killing microsoft and apple at the same time. so apple has to make their hardware more exciting. that's i gave up on other things >> crrtical reviews. what do you think. are you buying this? >> no, i am not. how many are you going to give away? the businesses that are signing up, they have to wait a long time. they have to wait a while to get their money. it's a difficult situation. another competitor as well. that doesn't make sense, don't buy it. >> we think it will be the leader? >> yes, it will be because of mobile. when you can have the global positioning with all of the smart phones, you're walking by

them down the street. and ttey give you an offer. it is a 50% offer on something that you like and you get this, that model works because it's in the present. so this model will work. they do haveethis. and i do think that it is worth the $9. >> that is true. >> we have major news controversy this week. finally, if group on his back upon, is this back on? it is hard pressed. you know, i look at it and would we make of what this is telling us? >> the nikkei is saying that

obviously when the japanese federal reserve started in september, they said look me in the eye, read my lips. it is going up and the yen is going up very high. so everybody went into that trade. i think that a three bladed blind dog could do that. when the music stops, everybody went out the same door. the power of that includes that we will not have one more run because of the money that we made. >> that's an interesting point. thousands of miles from our own sure, i don't buy it. >> exactly. i know the because they are there part time every year. the thing is that the s&p 500

has been directly correlated for a long time.@ what that means for people thinking about ben bernanke and how we are doing things here, w3 may not like to admit it, but it is critical to what is happening. neil: how many central banks are basis? so you're you are free to what is going to happen? >> well, finish up. >> okay. >> if they back off, you will have to step up to a program that is three times the size of a proportional basis of what it is doing here. >> it is a suicide mission for economics. they want to have inflation. if they are successful in getting this, the interest rates are going to have to go up and they will lose value and then the whole thing crumbles.

so it is a mission and yet they have 5000 baby boomers are thee retiring and withdrawing money aad it is going to end badly the. neil: okay. we will see how it goes. thank you both so much. this guy can be a free speech revolutionary. i want you to meet a former speech whistleblower. that is coming up next. i t a turtle friend today so, you don't get thatery often. it seemed like it was mo than ppy to have usn his home. so beautiful. avo: more avel. options. more personal.

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neil: brookline is not sure what to make of edwards noted that he does know what could come of all the buzz created.

because before, there was a certain unassuming technician. mark had discovered that the company was allowing the government to steal a lot of customer data and further do so without a point. the company just did it again and again. that was seven years ago. it is pretty sobering stuff when i look back at what you went through and what you dealt with and what you warned us about. it got everyone involved and it continues. >> it with a legal background. i still think ii is illegal. it depends on how much outrage there is in the country.

congress is running scared. both parties are. neil: it can be short-lived. it was in your case seven years ago. i do remember quite well this outrage. but it did not last. i would think that this may have been enough for this stuff. >> it is because congress in both parties, republican and democratic put a lid on mass by including the immunity bill that gave immunity to the phone companies. and then they made it look like things were fixed. neil: so they essentially talked about this. the environment at the time was we were knee-deep in iraq.

this was a primary concern. but we had reminders the summer before. maybe that was dominating the conversation. >> i think it is created by the administration to make people scared. you know, but this did not happen in boston, didn't? >> no, it did not. do you see him as a misguided case? >> i think this man as a heroic figure who makes a principle stands for the constitution. that is perfectly clear. and here it is a great danger. and great while doing was

exposed. the. neil: that there was a process for that. >> i don't know what it was in your case. but there is an inspector general. have you noticed that we have over 100 million americans phone records and we are doing this willy-nilly and we are increasing it. >> he learned from the experience of previous whistleblowers. he quit right after 9/11. he found out that there was apparatus only on foreigners, but domestically as well. they raided his house. there was an individual who went through channels, he went through the inspector general.

he went to congressional committees. he was basically not listened to. they were watching all this happen over the years and they realize that this gets you nowhere. you have to get out there and that is the only reason and the only way we are having this conversation now. >> what is going to happen to him? >> i do not know. i suspect that they would like to capture him physically and bring him back to this country to have a good trial. >> i do not think the chinese will release him. >> oh, i think that they will. they want o maintain good trade relations. >> and not but not before they get everything out of it can? >> that is theoretically possible. i don't think it is part of this for trade reasons. >> okay. we thank you very much.

>> thank you. >> not a moment too soon. never mind whether superman will be a hit. what is going on with all of these scandals. i think that it will happen thek coming up for s small business take tseags to room 12 please. garth ] bjorsml busi earns double miles on every purchase every da producdelivery. [ bjorn ] just put it on my spark ca. garth why settle for less? ahh, oh! [ garth ] great businesses deserve limited reward here's your wake up call. [ le announcer ] get the spark business card from capital one and ea uimited rewards. [ le announcer ] get choose double milescard 2% cash bk on every pururchase every da. what's in your wallet? crows ] now where's the snoo button? my mantra? always go the extra mile. to treat my low testosterone, i did research.

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[inaudible] >> he was convicted that the world wasn't ready. neil: biggest movie opening of all time. it is hard to say. i am betting that not only does this latest superman look good, but it comes at a time scandal weary americans are looking for anyone or anything. >> the american people really

are looking for heroes and now we have the gallup poll that shows that congress has its worst showing since 1973. even some in the media rank higher. >> surprisingly, small businesses are the second most trusted institution. so it's really interesting. peopleewant to go to the movie and we don't have those superheroes in washington just yet. >> members of congress do not get to the on that same thing. they remind you more were they are basically easily manipulated and bendable and they make a really big mess ask a long time to clean up. i believe that we will see things like obamacare. >> someone did a little analogy.

i always wondered about some movies that come hits at different times. the last superman incarnation. i'm wondering whether the environment actually helped a character like this. >> i do not doubt it. the history of the oppression, we had all of these rich people living a happy life. people wanted to be uplifted by those stories. we have a lot of problems in our society and in our economy right now. i do not doubt that people do want to hear this. i think it is unrealistic of them to one congress or individual congresspeople to be their heroes. the system just isn't set up for this collective body to produce a hero. i don't think there are any easy answers to the problem might not. neil: no one was expecting this.

no one was expecting it at all. so maybe we stumbled upon it when we least expect it. >> i agree with adam. i think that they're our heroes out there. and they do show up in the campaign trail and they are wrote. when they get into the system, something turn some away from what they intended tt do when they first set out the. neil: what do you think? >> i think that the system is set up for them not to emerge as heroes. that is not a bad thing. we elect them to go to washington and fight for us. i agree that things are not working as well as we wish that they would. but it is going to be confrontational. it is going to be messy. it is not set up for one person to rise up and say, i will solve all of this for you.

>> we have had a lot of people do this. >> at the moment you do not realize this. >> we are blaming the politicians and we elected a rockstar president. let's honestly look at it and say if we had more lois lanes in the media, doing investigative journalism, holding these elected officials to their standards, we would be living in another place. neil: i don't think that in this latest superman movie, clark kent isn't the reporter. >> that is very odd.

>> i think it was by design. i don't think they have any attachment to this. get that out of there. neil: i always wonder how this works. >> how long does it take them? >> you know, that is interesting >> you know, you two are very knowledgeable about the film. i haven't seen it yet. but i would really take great issue with this. neil: i have turned on the part of madame. >> i get that. >> and even though our industry is having such a hard time making money, i think we have a

vibrant media that is investigating everything. we have good journalists. we have bad journalists. >> exactly. the. neil: they are backing away. even as this has exploited, it's a fraction of what it was. neil: scotty, bottom line. >> i think that they will be okay. honestly, i am really not happy that they switched it around too much. superman is a classic. when you take them out for being a journalist and you make him to be a fisherman, i think there is something wrong. neil: at adam? >> i would like to see it.

you have me excited about this movie. neil: everyone have a wonderful weekend. the great father's day. we will see you later. gerri: thank you for joinng us. tonight on "the willis repor" %-verans waiting for benef one of our heroes hee tonight to share his story. and young americans ying no credit ds. and new concernssfor young athleteses. we are watching out or ou tonight on "the willis eport." gerri: we will have the latest on our