lou: all of the rattraps that we just end up making for smarter rats. welcome, everybody, am neil cato. after all of the scandal revelation in these elaborate systems to go after bad gus, the badguyset smarter and avoidthem. congressman mike rogers isn't giving any specifics but he is saying that they are changing their behavior by apparely not using the technologies on which we are spying. whether that means we are not sending text messages, i frankly

have no idea, but it is retty clear that the bad guys are finding other ays. so we are very much on the line. all of tse phone call breeches and e-mail breeche nd text brges and all of it for for nothing. e guy who leaked them,ar from here. edwards noted in asking for protection from the chinese government. i think it's it is safto s at the chinese will comply and it is probably not to his liking. to the military experts who sa@ that thais what happens when stuff like this gets out, the form assistant seccetary of defense is that once it is out we alws have anoer wy to move around. wayne simmons is with us.

he has a hard handshake and he crh you wi that. [applause] >> let's get to it. onceethis gets released, any smart bad guys going to fid a way around this, right? >> absolutely. not only a way around it, but in the past were either criminal organizations were terrorists found out, sometimes they find a way to track our communities but dismantled organization with what they believed to what we know about. t only dowe have to find them again, but we have to figure out who to find and what networks and groups to find again. lou: y aresaying tt he was a hero.

but no, he is not. how do you feel? >> i am confident that my position has only been strengthened since we ound out that he's being debriefed by the inlligence apparatus. this iabsolutely spot on when she says that it's very damann because what is out there in the united states or around the world, the first thing tha they do are using human cabilities which are messages being used and sent by runners as opposed to getting on the phone or getting on the internet. it is going make our job much more difficult, especially since we no longe avehe human intelligence capabilities that we once had.

neil: worthiest strategies or methods, the iphone records, we they crucial in tracking down bad guys? >> i guess w had this with the boston bombings and that did not stop the two brothers. >> i do no have inside information in ts particular ogram. but g able to track the communications not only those within and passing to the united states, but is not a datais critical not only to identify and track and have insight into what these organizations are doing, but in the case of the bombings and oer activities at we did not get ahead of. to go back and see what did we miss and w do e reestablish and get insight into pose

future acivity? nnil: i now you' talking about those whoere harming us and wanted to do thisto kill us. but i think that it is a good thing that this came to light. in the name of protecting s, my immediate reaction was what is this a aut. so i'm gng to ask you that. what the heck is this all about. say what you will about the bad guys and now we will find ways around it. why was this happening in the first place and to what end. how could it possibl begood. >> happily i will do so. >> i wil ay that the conrns are justified. i have no rason to think that

those amicans feel the way you do, but they are not justified. i will tell you this. this goes back irectly ,-com,-com ma iny opinio direly to not only bruce alle but thecia and at the nsa. because we have programs called counterintelligence risk indicato. those are programs tha are being consistently and constantly run against our own people. only to coninue to monitor them with a top-secret clearance. especially those that have access to intelligence and they need to continue to monitor. so they can find out if our standards have hanged. that is where i ha the biggest problem is we want to counter that, we have too many people talking about that. we have 1. million amerins

have the ality to do what snow today. but the are a lot of people who have a lot of good. >> most people understand that they are compartmented which means that they are segregated. neil: yu dn't think they're more therere more like him? >> i hope that there are not a lot more like him. >> okay. well, maybe you can kick butt here. >> be careful. >> i could imagine. thanyou both verymuch. the congressman is trying to doesn't go oveboard. we have aa bill in the congressman is explaining what

this bill is about. >> thanyou for having me on again. it is a bill that i'm working on with john conyers, he is the ranking democrats. we have a lot of cosponsors and what we are trying to dois narrow the scope of the patriot act so that it is only targeting the people that we want to target, foreign agnts. neil: how would you know? >> you may no know that the innocent party is the culprit. under the way iti being interpreted, they are treating all americans this way. that is why when you hear this, it is being done under the paiot act. whether that is being figured as levant informaon, en though all of those people nd most of the people, most of them

have no tiesto terrorism. neil: as you know, i play an expert on tv. [laughter] ne: i think i qualify. >> i think by trying to hold back on this sweeping spying of everyone, you endup missing a t of flks by bringing it back to just the folks who you think e potential people. >> we ha a fourth amendment and we have to folloit. you can also eliminate all terrorism within the uted states by aving this. they canatch everyone's family all day. neil: i had joe lieberman on the phone and he was with me last night. you know, i can't get into specifics, but i can tell you that this very program has led to trouble.

you know, you never know. but now you rein it in. i am with you on this. heaven knows what wi come our way. >> you cannot use anecdotes to justify this. the reason the founders put in place isto proteccur rights. there is a alance between security and liberty. it is presented in the constitution andt fourth amendment.@ that is what we wnt to otect. it is important to note that a lot of members of cogress aren't even given access to the law because the secret crt opinions -- we do not know unless you are on this committee. we do not know how theaw is actually working. neil: will bpart of the powwow of the individuals? >> it has not changed mind.

if anything, it has emboldened me. we have classified briefings. there are documents th we would want access o. though that i'm working on with represtive conyers, it would provide us critical information so that we can represent our constituents. >> thank you, sir. >> thank you, neil. neil: i have not even gtten into the latest news this week. as we have rported, the very same law that we areoming to find that ow-wage worrs, they can't afford this. wasn't that the point of affordable health

i represent this party.go. you said that the rent is oo high. neil: i love that guy. where e is this guy when you ned him? now, apparently this health care la talks about he uninsured. and many were supposed to help cannot afford it. going ontliz macdonald. scotty, thats incredible. >> it is incredible but expected. we knew that like all escalating problems, fordable health care is just going to sit there. we are making sure that those who cannot afford it could.

neil: the other uys who on't want it, they were going to be part of this, they can't afford it. we turned everything upsie down >> it is so high and affordable that it may be out of reach. we have both sides to work out the kinks and now we have the irs it is going to dictate what is affordable d what is adequate coverage as the wave of the fture. neil: adam? >> i find this an amusing idea. >>hat we have instead i that this care isunaffordable for some of the workers involved. because there was an exception

put in for some ofhe employers. this was an effort to make this easier.3 this is a piece of legslation that nee work. one among many things that nneds work. >> ok, augment or remove dust and make the insurance affordable. >> we are excusing a lot law that everyone work it out. when it comes loaded with 20 plustaxes. >> you could stop this train wreck even though it is thelaw ofhe ld. you could stop it now and stt start from scratch. getting it on track, it's already aainwreck. it never should have gotten out of the nation itself. health insurance being

governed by the department of health and human services and the irs is policin it why are we allowing this? nothing made sense about this bill. this is a political stand to try to sit here and take over. including the orders of barack obama continuing to say that he has health car. @% will literally put us in gre. >> okay, it kind of reminds me of this. the fact of the matter is that it has gaping wounds everywhere. >> and feelslike that because it see like there's a ot of ba-aids on it. i get . but that is part of the problem the way th they rammed it through. it is very costly to do that, t puts a lot of tis on th irs.

it makes a lot of mistakes that we kw and also medicare and a host of other things that the government asks us to do. >> i mean, are you going tohave the irs do this to the degree they planned to do it or are you going to find a way to make this more affordable so more participate bcause you make an exemption foa lot of them. you takethat away, part-time, full-time. yosee what i'm getting at. you have to undo a lot of this. >> why no loo back and say it's not worth it. trit from scratch. >> well,i'm thinking of a compprison part of the public works project. you cannot un- dig thees. i'm ot saying this is a perfect piece of legislation.

if we d a number of people who are getting health insrance, whh is one of the achievements of the legislation, or killer on the other ha, i undeand that you all would like to kill it. i think let's ma it better. >> i would just say his. these are thebasic points that we have disrupted ndupended our entire health care system. were pretty satisfied with that coverage. for the 10%%who did not, we are not always so keen on this. some are not interted on taking it on. others cannot afford i. all of that for what? >> well, that is the thing that we have to look at. did this to help our economm. but we ave seen is that peopl are not hiri full-time

employees because ople are having two or three part-time jobs becau their bosses cannot afford obamacare. were seeing the unemployment lines growing becae of obamacare and we are going to see it even more. il: you would think that adam would feel guilty, but he does t. >> we didt to give more people access to health are. neil: all of those 10%, ty generally weren't always into . but the bottom line is fr what? >> i would just say that we are not done. >> but wshould never have let it start. neil: in the meantime, quit colaining about the nsa.

ne: the next time y are asked whether you should agree to the terms and conditions coming you better read all of them. one of my favorite lawyers says this whole nsa right to spy o to is pretty much apelled wants out there. a teeny tiny black-and-white. >> on the one hand at it like you agree to this. on the other hand it is all in the name of national security. >> where did i agree to this? >> somewhere in the 20 or 30 or 40 pages that ou need a triple sizemagnifyi glass to read, it is in there. but it is so easy these days he

just click on a button. neil: nowhere did it say the nsa can spyn you. but o your point, there are a lot of vague references to the second and third parties. >> we reserve the right. neil: yes, we reserve the right and that is a populaa line. they say that any timm we do this, it will be on this. >> well, there you go. i mean, it iss amazng and take it fo graed. >> but if we don't sign at are kept at. >> we don't say that. >>nly until there is a problem. once you have a problem in the attorney general'saccent, but

consumer would actually be able to read that. it is part of an agreement and you have tagree to make t very easy for someone tread it and understand it and conspicuous enoughhat it is very important that we ay attention. neil: you now, it is tually spelled out that you signed up for this. but doesn't say that you might have this where you w have to deal with t. but it is such a broad overview such a warning headsup that almost anything canhapen, including getting attacked by aliens. you shld just dea with it. >> your liability, and we see %-go right to theeagreement. go to he ticket. there are and mitations of liability.

>> tre are many people who are curious. >> so nowhat do you say to americans? >> someone should step up to the plate and say that i am going to create a new company where you don't have to agree t this. and if anyone makes me, i'm going to say that this is america and u better have a court order signedy a judge. neil: i'm going to ke them sign an agreement for me. >> well, maybe two cups and a stringill be your phones. [laughter] 's the one i hate lawyers, n like you, but i do hate them. [laughter] neil: thank you so much. well, wea trying to keep

track of these individuals at the irs. will our next est will talk about is coming out next

neil: we are fixing what you think is just an oil leak.

your brakes are gone. your catalytic converter, maybe ditch the car? between targeting persol health records and those refusing credit cards, maybe just ditch the irs. we have melissa francis ere. there is a lot of crainess. >> it is out of control and no one would like to t rid of them more than i would. please do not therme. neil: look at you. [laughter] >> that is right. obviously it is not going to happen. but it seems likevery cabinet we open here, something else comes up. more than a thousand cases in thpast two years, they have employees who misuse their corporate credit card for the

irs. they didn't ha enough funds in the account to cover it they did all these things. and then they found that they weren't even punishing them for that they we more lenient with their employers antheir ployees were with the taxpayer. neil: do you think any of this -- and we talk about a lot nservative tea party actions the. >> i wish. >> i don't think we will see much of this. >> people keep saying that we have all of these hearings. we are going to have a big reform. i don't think that's goi to happen. this is the problem with government. this is why we don't want government - the person has to be sitting there for it to be spent prperly. theyre invisible handlers. that is why capitalism works.

so if the guy who owns te store isn't there very often, more ndy goes missing. the guy who was rking there -- neil: if you are charging $5 for a pack of gum, some people would steal it. >> i don't think we et to the fundamental problem at times great if we don't do that, none of this will change the. neil: yes. >>t was the same thing wre we saw headlines of what was going on with outaxpayer money. you laugh and then you cried. neil: so this is kind of frittered away >> probably not even that. i don't tnk a lot changes. i think that this is the fundamental problewith government. you put people in harge monitor other people and corruption takes over. >> we foget that ght after watergate, there were all of

these,ou know, the laws and new rules that were put in. >> they are fa away in washington. you can seee what these people are doing. otherwise it gets out of control and it is humanature. you cannot help it. neil: lissa francis, thank you so much. this just in, icosoft. excel is coming to t iphone. and the res comes wit it. actually the heat may ve

neil: this just in. apple is not dead yet. that has not stopped it from hooking with microsoft in what could be a vey g development.

ssecifically, micoft suite of programs including word and excel are coming to an iphone maybe that comes later with the ipad. we have a guest on whether this opening item confir that this is that of a cocat. what do you think? >> i think apple is a copycat. >> y you are taking a product tt everybody doesn't like, you are talking aout osing market share. i don't understand why it is a big deal. >> why don't you just play along >> let me show you how it is done. it is henous because they have to choose this. they are in a osition where google ithe one who is klling

th. they are killingicrosoft and apple at the same time. sopplele has to mke their hdware more citing. that's i gave up on other things >> crrtical reviews. what do you hink. are you buying this? >> no, i am not. how many are you going to give away? the businesses that are signing up, they have to wait a long me. they have to wait a while to get their money. it's a dficult sitution. another competitor well. that doesn't make sense, don't buy it. >> we tnk it will be te lead? >> y, it will be because of mobile. when you can have the global positioning with all of the smart phos, y're walking by

them down t street. and tt give you noffer. it is a50% offer on something that you like and you get this, that model works because it's in the present. so this model will work. they do haveethis. and i do think that it is worth th $9. >> thais tue. >> we have major news controversy this week. filly, if group on his back upon, is this back on? it is hard pressed. you know, i lok at it and would we make f what this is telling us? >> the nikkei is saying that

obviously when the japanese federal reserve stard in september, they saidook in the ey, reamy lips. it is going up and the yen is going up very high. so everydy went into that trade. i think that a three laded blind dog could do that. when the music stops, erybody went out the same door. the power of that includes that we will not have one more run because of the money that we made. >> that's an interting point. thousds of miles from our own sure, i don't buy it. >> exaly. i know he because theyre there part time every yar. the thing is that the&p 500

has been directly correlat for a long time.@ what that means for people thinking about ben bernanke and how we are doing things here, w3 may no like to admitit, but it is critical to what is happening. neil: how many central banks are basis? so y're yoare freeo what going to happen? >> well, finish up. >> okay. >> if they back off, you will have t step up to a program that is three times the size of a proporonal basisf what it is doing here. >> it is a suicission for economics. they want to ave inflation. if they are successful i getting this, the interest rtes are going to have to go up and they will lose value and then the whole thing crumbles.

so it is a mssion and yet they have 5000 baby boors are thee retiring and withdrawing money aad it is going to endadly the. neil: okay. we will see how it goes. thank you both so much. this guy can be a free speech revolutionary. i want youo meet a former speech whistleblower.

neil: brookline is not sure what to make edwards noted that he does know what could come all the buzz created.

because before, there was a certain unassuming technician. mark had discoverethathe company was allowing the government to steal a lot of customer data and further do so without a point. the company just did it again and agai. that was seven years ago. it is pretty sobering stuff when i look back at what you went through and what you dealt with and what you warned us about. it got everyone involvednd it continues. >> it with a legal backgrund. i still think ii is ilegal. it depends on how much otrage there is in the country.

congress is running scared. both parties are neil: it can be short-lived. it was in your case seven years o. i do remember quite well this outrage. buit did not last. i would think tat this may have been enough for is stuff. >> it is because congress in both parties, republican and democratic put a lid on mass by including the iunity bill that gave immunity to the phone companies. and then they made it ok like things were fixed. neil: so they essentially talked about this. the environment at te time was we were knee-deep in iraq.

this was a primary concern. but we had reminders the summer before. maybe thatas dominating the conversation. >> i think it is created by e administration to make eople you know, but this di not happen in boston, didn't? >> no, it did not. do you see him as a misguided case? >> i think this man as a heroic figure who makes a principle stands for the constitution. that is perfectly lar. anhere it is a great danger. and great while doing was

exposed. neil: that there was a pcess for that. >> i don't know what it was in your case. but there an inspector neral. have you noticed that we have over 100 million americans on records and we are doing this willy-nilllly and we are increasi it. >> he learned fm the experience of previous whistleblowers. he quit right after 9/11. he found out that there was apparatus only on foigners, but domestically as ell. they raided his huse. there was an dividual who wt throughhannels, he went through the inspector general.

he went to congressional committs he was basically no listened to. they were watching all this happen over the yeas and they realizthat this gets you nowhere. you have to get out thereand that is the only reason a e only way we are having this conversation now. >> wt is going to hapn to him? >> i do not know. i suspect that they would like to capture him physically d bring him back to this country to have a good trial. >> i do not think e chinese ll release him. >> oh, i think that they will. they wt o maintain good trade relations. >> and not but not before they get evything out of it can? >> that is theoretically possible. i don't think it is pa f this for trade reasons. >> okay. we thank you very much.

>>than you. >> not a moment too soon never mindhether superman will be a hit. what is going on with all of these scandals. i think that it

[inaudible] >> he was convicted that the world wasn'tready. neil: biggest movie opening of all time. it is hard tsay. i am betting that not only does this latest superman look good, but it comes at a time scandal weary americans are looking for anyone or anything. >> the american people really

are lookinfor heroes and now we have the gallup poll that shows that congress has its worst showing since 1973. even some in the media rank higher. >> surprisingly, small sinesses are the secd most trusted instition. so it'really interesting. peopleewant to go to the movie and we don't have those superheroes in shington just yet. >> members of congress do not get tothe on that samthing. they remind you more were they are basally easily manipulated and bendable and they make a really big mess ask a long time to clean up. i believe thawe will see thingsike obamacare. >>omeone did a little analogy.

i always wondered about some movies that come hits at different times. the last superman incarnation. i'm wondering whether the environment actually helped a character like this. >> i do not doubt it. the history of the oppression, we had all of these rih people living a hay life. people wanted to be uplifte by those stors. we have a lot of problems inur society and in our economy right now. i do not doubt tht people do want to he this. i thin it is unrealistic of them to one congress or individual congresspeople to be their heroes. the system just isn't set up for this collective body o produce a hero. i don't think there are y easy answers to the probl might not. neil: no one was expcting this.

no one was expecting it at al. so maybewe stumbled upon it when we least expect it. >> i agree with adam. i tnk that they're our heroes out there. d they do show up in the campaign trail and they are wrote. when they get into the system, something turn some away from what they intended ttdo when they first set out the. neil: what do you think? >> i think that the system is set up for tem not to emee as hero. that is not a bathing. we elect them to goto washington and fighfor us. i agree that things are no working as well as we wish that they would. but it is going to be confrontational. it is going to be messy. it is not set up for ne person to rise up and say, i will solve all of this for you.

>> we have had a lot of people do this. >> at the moment you do not realiz this. >> we are blaming the politicians and we elect a rockstar president. let's honestly look at itand say if we had more lois lanes in the media, doing investigative jourlism, holding these elected officials to their standards, we would be living in anher place. neil: i don't think that in this latest superman movie, clark nt isn't the reporter. >> that is very odd.

>> i think it was by design. i don't think they havany attachment to this. get that o of there. neil: i always wonder how this works. >> h long does it take them? >> you know, that is interesting >> you know, you two are ve knowdgeable about the film. i haven't seen it yet. but i would really take great issue with this. neil: i have urned on the part of madame. >> i get that. >> and even thouur industry is having such a hard time making money, think we have a

vibrant media that is investigating everything. we have good jrnalists. we have bad journalists. >> exactly. th neil: they are backing away. even as this has exploited, it's a fraction of what it was. neil: scotty, bottom lie.e. >> i think that they will b okay. honestly, i am really not happy that theswitched it around too much. superman is a classic. when you take them out for being a journalist andyou make him to be a fisherman, i k there is something wrong. neil: at adam? >> i would like to see it.

you have me excited about this movie. neil: eeveryone have a wonderfl weekd. the great father's day. lou: good evening, everybody. thank you for being with us. president obama has decided that now is the time provide arms to syria and rebels lookg to al president assad. we have not heard about ts decision dectl from the president, however. rather from national security staff and e white house, nor have we heard from the defense secretary or the secretary of state. apparently the president has deded to send small arms, ammunition, and, perhaps antiank weaponry t the level of -- rebebels. the white house issued a statement declaring the syria has used chemical weapons of the past year and claimed 100 to 150 syrian rebels were k