lou: all of the rat trapthat we just end up making for smarterr rats. welcome, everybody, i am neil cavu. after alof the scandal revevelations in these elabate systems to go after bad guys, the bad guys get smarter and avoid them. congressman mike rogers isn't giving any specifics but he is saying that they are changing their behavioy apparently nt using the technologies on which we are spying. whetherhat means we are not

sending text messages, i frankly have no idea, buit is petty clear that the bad guys are findin other ways. soe are very much on the line. all of these phone call breeches and e-mail breeche ndtext brges and all of it for or nothing. the guy who leaked them, far from her. edwards noted in asking for protection frothe chinese government. i think 's it is safe to say that the chinese willcomply and it is probably not to his liking to t military experts who say@ that that is what happens when stuff like this gets out, the formerssistant seccetary of defee is that once it is out, we always have another way to move around. wayne simmons is with us.

he has a hard handshake and he can crush you with that. [applae] >> let's get to it. onceethis gts rleased, any smart bad guysoing t find a way around this, right? >> absolutely. not on a way around it, but in the past were either criminal organizatis wereterrorists found out, sometimes thyfind a way to track our communities but dismantled organization with what they believed to be what we know about. not only do we have to find them again, but we have to figure out who to find a what networks and groups to find aain. lou: you are saying that he was a heo.

but no, he is not. how do you feel? >> i am confident that my position has only beenen strengthened sine we ound out that he's being debriefed by the inlligence apparatus. this is absolutely spot on whn she sayshat it's very damaginn. because what is out there in the united states or around the world, the first thing that they do are using human capabilities which are mesages being used and sent by runners as opposed to getti on the phone or getting on the internet. it is going to make our job much more difficult, especially since we no lnger ave the human intelligence cpabilities that we once had.

neil: worthieststrategies or methods, the iphone records, were they crucialin tracking down bad guys?s? >> i guess we ha this with the boston bombings and th did not stop the two brothers. >> do t have inside informatioin this partular program. but being able to trk the communications not only those within and passing to the united states, but is not a data is crital not only to dentif and track and have insight into what these organizations are doing, but in the cse of the bombings and other activities that we did not get ahead of. to go back and see what did we miss and how o we reestablis and get insight in possible

future activity? nnil: i know you're talng about those who were harming us and wted to do this to kill us. but i think that it is a good thing that thicame to light. in the ne of prtecting us, my immediate reaction was what is this all about. so'm going to ask you that. what the heck is this all aut. y what you will about the ba guys and now we will find ways arnd it. why was this happening in the first place and to what end. how could it possibly be good. >> happily i will do so. >> i will saythat the concerns are jutied. i have no reason to think that

those americans feelhe way you do, but hey are not justified. i will tell you this. this goes back directly com,-com ma in my opinion, directly tnot only bruce allen, but the ca and at th nsa. because we have programs called counterintelligencerisk incators. those are progams that are being consistently d constantly run against our own people. only to continue to monitor them with a top-secret clarance espeally those that have acce to intelligence and they need to continue to monitor. so they can find out if our standards have changed. that is where i have the biggest problem is weant to unter th, we have too many people talking about th. we have 1.4 million america

have the ability to do what snow today. but there are a lot of people who have a lot of good. >> most people understand that they are compartmented. which means that they are segregated. neil: you dn't think they're more there a more li him? >> i hope that there ae not a lot more like him. >> okay. well, ybe you ca kick butt here. >> be careful. >> i could imagine. thank you both very uc the congressman is trying to doesn't go overboard. we have a ill in the congressman is expaining what

is bill s about. >> thank you for having me o again. it is a bill that i'm working on with john conyers, he is the ranking democrats. we have aot ofosponsors and what we are trying to do is narrow the scope of the ptriot t so that itis only targeting the people that we want to target, foreign agen. neil: w would you know? >> you may not kno that the innocent party is the culprit. >> uer the way it is being interpreted, they are treating all mericans this way. that is why wh youou hear this, it is being done underthe patriot act. whether that is being figured as relevant information, even thgh all of those people and most ofthe people, most of them

have no ties to terrorism. neil: s you know, i play an expert on tv. [laughter] il: i think i quaify. >> i think by trying to hold back on this sweepin spying of everyone, you end up missing a lotf folks by bringing it back to just the folks who you think are potentialpeople. >> we ha a fourth amendment and we have to follow it. you can also elinate all terrorism within the united states by having this. they can watch everyone's fami all day. neil: i had joeieberman on th phone and he was with me last night. you knowi can't get into specifics, but i can tell you that this very pgram has led to trouble.

you know, you never know. but now you rein it i i am with you on his. heaven knows wt will ce our way. >> you cannot use anecdotes to justify this. the reason the founders put in place is to rotecc our rights. there is a balance between security and liberty. it is prentein the constitution and the fourth amendment.@ that is what we want toprotect. it is important to note that a lot members of ongress aren't even given access to the law because the secret court opinions -- wedo not know unless y are on this commtee. we do not know how the law is actually wrking. neil: will be part of the powwow of the idividuals?

>> it has no changed my mind. if anything, it has emboldened me. we have classiied briefings. the are documents that we would want access to. though that i'm wking on with representative conyers, it wld provide us critical information so that we can represent our constituents. >> thank you, sir. >> thank you, nei into the latest news this week. as we have reported, the very me law that we are comg to find that low-wage workers, they can't afford this. wasn't that the popoint we went out and asked people a simple question:

hoold is the oldest person you've known? we ge people a sticker and had them show us. we learned a lot of us have known someone who's led well into their 90s. and that's a great thing. who's ledbut even thoueir 90s. we're living longer, one thing that hasn't changed much is t official retirement age. ♪ the question is how do you make sure you have the money you need to enjoy all of these years. ♪

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>> there is nowhere to go. i present this party. you saidthat the rent too gh. ne: i love that guy. where is this guy when you need him? now, apparently this health care law talks about the uninsured. and many were supposed to help cannot afford it. goi onto liz acdonald. scotty, that is incredible. >> it is incredible but expected. we knewthat like all escalating problems, affordable health care is just going to sit there. we are making sure tt those who cannot afford it could.

neil: the other guys who don't wa it, they were going to be part of this, they can't afford it. we turned everything upside down >> it is so gh and afforble that it may out of reach. we have bth sides to wok out the kinks and now we have the irs it is gng to dictate what is affordable and what is adequate cerage as the wave of the futue. neil: adam? >> i find this an amusing idea. >> what we have instead is that this care is unaffordable for some of the workers involved. because there was an exception

put in for some of the employers. this was an effort to make this easier.3 this is a piece of legslation that needs work. one among many things that nneds work. >> okay, augment o removedut and make the insurance afrdable. >> we are excusing a lot law that everyone work it out. when it comes loaded with 20 plus taxes. >> you could stop this train wreck even though it is the lalw of the land. you could stop it no and start start from scratch. >> getng it on track, it's already a train wreck never should have gotten out of the nation itself. health insurance is being

governed by the department of health and human services and the irs is policing it. why are we allowing this? nothinde sense about this bill. this is a political stand to try to sit here and take over. including the orders of barack obama continuing to say that he has health care. @% wl literally put us in grave. >> okay, it kind of reminds me of this. the fact of the mattis that it has gaping wous everywhere. >> and feel like that becse it seems like there's a ot of band-aidon it. i get it but that is part of the problem the way that they rammed it through. it is very costly to do that, it puts a lot of this on the irs.

it makes a lot of mistakes that we know analso medicare and a host of other things that the government asks us to do. >> i mean, are you going to have the irs do this to the degree th planned to do ior are you going to fd a way to makethis momore affordable so mor icipat because you make an exemption for a lot of them. you take that away,part-me, full-time. you see what i'm getting at. you have to undo lot o this. >> why not look back and sa that it's not worth it. try it from scratch. >>ell, i'm thinking of a comppron part of the public works project. you cannot un- dig theditch. i'm not sayi this is a perfect

piece of legislation. if we had a number of people who aregeing health insurance, which is one of the achievements of the legislation, or killer on the other hand, understd that you all would like to kill it. i think let's make it better. >> i would jussaythis. these are the basic points that we h have diupted and upended our entire health caresystem. we are pretty satisfied wih that coverage. for the 10%%who did not, we are not always so keen on this. some are not interested on tang it on. others cannot afford it. all of that for what? >> well,hat the thing that we have to look at. we did this to help our economm. but we haveseen is th people are not hing full-time

employees because people are having two or three part-time jobs because their bosses cannot afford obamacare. we are seeing the unemployment lines growing because of obamacare and we are going to se even more. neil: you would ink that adam would feel guilty,ut he does not. >> we did it to give more pple acss to health cae. il: all of those 10%, hey generally weren't alwa into . but the bott line isfor what? >> i would just say that we are not done. >> but we should never ha let it start. neil: in the meantime, quit neil: in the meantime, quit complaining about the ns. ma annncer ] t's y you pay your guy arou 2to manage yo money. that's not ch, you think. except it's 2% every year. go to e-trade and find out

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neil: the next time you are asked whether you should agree to the terms and conditions coming you better read all of them. one of myfavorite lawyers says this whole ns rig to spy on to is pretty much a spelledants t there. a teenytiny black-and-white. >> on the one hand a it like you agree to this. on the other hand it is all in the name of ntional security. >> where did i agree to this? >> somewhere in th20 or 30 or 40 pages that you need a riple sized magnifying gss to read, it is in the. but it is so easy these days he

just click on a button. neil: nowhere did it say the nsa n spy on you. but to your point, there are a lot of vague references to the second and thir parties. >> we reserve the right. neil: yes, we reserve the right and that is a populaa line. they say th any timm we do this, it will be on this. >> well, there you go. i mean, itis amazing and we ta it for ganted. >> but if we don' si that are kept at. >> we don't say that. >> only until ere is a problem. once you he a problem in the attoey general's accent, but

consumer would actually be abl to read that it is part of an agreement and you have to agree to make it veryeasy for someoneo read it and understand itand conspicuous enoughhthat it is very important that we pay attention. neil: you know, it is actually spelled out that you signed up for this. but it doesn't say that you might havethis where you will have to deal with i. but it is such a broad overview such a warning heads up that almostnything can happen, including getting attacked by aliens. you should just deal with it. >> your liability, and we see %-go right to theeagreement. go to the ticket. the are and limitations of liability

>> tre are many people who are curious. >> so now what do you say to americans? >> someone should step up to the plate and say that i am going to create a new company where you don't have to agree to this. and if anyone makes m i'm going to say that thisis america and you betterave a court order signed by a judge. neili going to make them sign an agement for e. >> well, maybe two cups and a string will be your phones. [laughter] 's the one i hate lawyers, not likeyou, but i do hate them. [laughter ne: thank you so much well, we are trying to keep

track of these individuals at the irs. will our next guest will talk about this coming out next with the spark miles card from capital one, bjorn earns unlimited rewas for his small business take theseags to room 12 please. [ garth ] bjors small busiss earns double miles everyurchase every day. produce delivery. [ bjorn ] just put it on my spark card [ garth why settle for less? ahh, oh! [ garth ] great businesses deserve limited reward here's your wake up call. [ male announc ] get the spark business card from capital one d rnnlimited rewards. choose double miles or 2% ca back on every purchase every day. what's in your wallet? [ ows ] now where's the snooze button? [ ows ] if you've got it, you know how hard it can be to breathe and man,ou know how that feels. copd includes emphysema and chronic bronchitis. spiriva is a once-ily inhaled copd maintenance treatment that helps open my obstrucd airways for a full 24 hours.

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neil: we are fixing what you think is just a oil leak.

your bkes are gone. ur catalytic converter, maybe ditch the cr? between targeting personal health records and those refusi cdit cards, maybe just ditch the irs. we have melissa francis here. there is a lot of crazines. >> it is out of control and no one would like to get d of them more than i would. please do not bother me. neil: ook at y. [laughter] >> that is right. obviously it is not going to happ. but it seems lie every cabinet we open here, something els comes up. more tha a thousand cases in the past two years, ey have employees who misuse their corporate creditard for the

irs. they didn't have enough funds in the account to cover it, they did all the things and then they found that they weren't even punishing them for that ty were mor enit with their employers and their employees were with the taxpayer. neil: do you think any of this -- and we talk about a lot of conservative tea party actions the. >> i wish. >> i don't think we will see much of. >> people keep saying th we have all of these hearing we are going to have a big reform. i don't thinthat's going to ppen. this is the problem with government. thiss why we don't want government -- the person has to be sitting there for it to be spen properl they are invisible haners. that is why capitalism works.

so if the guy who owns the store isn't there vey ofen, more candy goes missing. the guwho was rking there -- neil: if you are charging $ fo a pack of gum, some ople would steal it. >> i don't think we get to the fundamental problem at times greaif we don't do that, none of this will change the. neil: yes >> it wathe same thing where we saw headlines of what was going on with our taxper money. you laugh and then you cried. neil: so this is kind of frittered awa? >> probly not even that. i don't thi a lot changes. i think that this i the fundamtal problem with gornment. you put people in chargemonitor otr people and corruption take over. >> we forget that right after

watergate, there were all of these, you knw, the laws and new rules that were put in. >> they are ar away in washington. you can see what these people are doing. otherwisit gets out of control and it is human nature. you cannot help it. neil: lissa francis, thank you so much. this just in, microsoft. excel isoming to the iphone. and th rest comes with it. vo: traveling you definitely end up meeting a lot more people but

a friend under wat is something complete diffent. i met a turtle friend today so, you don't get that very often. it seemed like it s more than happy to have us in his home. so beautiful.

avo: more travel. more optio. mo persona whatever you're looking for expedia has moreays to help you find yours. you wl se 3 sets ofeys 4 cell phones 7 soc and 6 weeks of sleep but one thing you don't want to lose is any more teeth. if you wear a partial, you are almost twice as like to lose your supporting teeth. new poligrip and polident for partials 'seal and protect' hes minimize stres, which may damage supporting teeth, by stabilizing your partial. and 'cleaand protect' ills odor-causing baeria. care for your partial. help otect your tural teeth. : thisust in. applis not dead yet that has not oppedit rom hoing up with microsoft in what could be a very big

development. ssecifically, microsoft suiteof programs includg word and excel are coming to an ipone near you. maybybe that comesater wh the ipad. we have a guest on whether this opening tem confirms that this is that of a pyca what dyou think? >> i think apple is acopycat. >> you are taking a product that everybody doesn't like, you are talking aboutlosing market share. i don't understand why it is a big deal. >> why don't you just play along >>et me show you how it is done. it is heinous cause they have to choose this. they are in a positn where

google is the one who s killing them. they are killing microsoft and apple at the same me. so apple has to make their hdware more exciting. that's i gave up on other things >> crrtical reviews. what do you think. are you buying this? >> no, i am not. how many are y going to give away? the sinesses that are signing up, they hav wait a long time. they have to wait a while to get their money. it's a difficult stuation. anotherompetitor as well. that doesn't make sense, don't buyit. >> we think it will be the leader? >> yes, it will bebecause of mobile. when you can have the global positioning with all of the smart phones, y'rwalking by

them down the street. and ttey give you an offer. is a 50 offer on something that you like d you get this, that model works because it's in the present. so this model will work. they do haveethis. and i do think that i is worth the $9. >> that is true. >> we have major ne controversy is week. filly, igroup on his back upon, is this bck on? it is hard pressed. you know, i look t it and would we make of what this is telling us? >>he nikkei is sayingtat

obviously when t japane federal reserve started in september, they said look me in the eye, read my lips. it is going up and the yen is going up very high. so everybody went into that trade. i think that a three bladed blind dog could do that. when the music stops, everybody went out the same door. the power of thaat includeshat we will not have one more run beuse of the money that we made. that's an nteresting point. thousands of miles from our own sure, i don't buy it. >> exactly. i know the because they are there part time every yar. the thing is that the s&p 500

has been directly correlated for a long time.@ what tatmeans for people thinking about ben bnankand how we are doing things here, w3 may not like to admit it,ut it critical to wt is happing. neil: how many central banks are basis? so youe you are free to what is going to happen? >> well, finish up. >> okay. if ey back off, yo will have to step up to a program that is three times the size of a proportional basis owhat it is doing here. >> it is a suicide mission for economics. they want to have inflation if they are successful in getting this, e interest rates are going to have to go up and they will lose value and then the whole thing rumbles.

so it is a mission and yet they have 5000 baby boors are ee retiring and withdrawing money aad i is going to e badly the. il: okay. we will see how it goes. thank you both so much. this guy c be a freespeech revolutionar i want y to meet a former we went out and asked people a simpleuestion: how old is the oldest person you've known? we gave people a sticker and had them show us. learned a lot of us have known someone ho'sived well into their 90s. and that's a great thing. but even though we're living longer, one thing that hasn't changed much is the official retirement age. ♪ the question is how do you make sure you have the money you ne to enjoy all of these years.

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neil: brokline is not sure what to make of edwards noted that he does know what couome of all the buzz created.

because before,there was a certain unassuming technician. mark had discovered thathe company was allowing t government to steal a lot of customer data and further do so without a point. the company just did it again and again. that was seven years ago. it is pretty sobering stuff when i look back at whatou went through and what you dealt with and what you warned us about. itgot everyone involved and it continues. >> it with a lel background. i still think ii illeg. it depends on how mucoutrage there is in t country.

congss is running scared. both parties are. neil: it can be short-lived. it wasn your case seven years ago. i do remember quite well this outrage. but it d not last. i would tink that thismay have been enough for this stuff. >> it is because congress in bo parties, republic and democratic put a lid on mass by cluding the immunity bill that gavemmunity to the phone companie and then they made it look like ings were ixed. neil: so they essentially talked about this. the environment at the time as we were kneeeep in iaq.

this was a primary cocern. but we had reminders the summer before. maybthat was dominating the conversation. >> i think it is created by the administration to make people scared. you knw, but this did not ppen in boston, didn't? >> no, idid nt. do you see him as a misguided case? >> i think this man as a heoic figure o makes a principle stands for the constitution. that is erfectly cear. and here it is a great danger. and reat while doing was

exposed. the. neil: that there was a process for that. >> i don't know what it was in your case. but there isn inspect general. have you noticed that we have over 100 million americans phone records and we are doing tis willy-niy and we are increasing it. >> he learned from the exrience of previous whistleblowers. he quit right after 9/11. he found out tt there as apparatus only on foreigners, but domestically as well. they raided is house. there was an indidual who wen through channel, he went

through the inspector general. he went to congression committees. he basically not lisistened to. they were watching all this happen over the years and they alize that this gets you nowhere. you have to get out there nd that is the only reas and the only w we are having this conversation now. >> what is going to hpen to him? >> i do not know. i suspect that they would like to capture him physically d bring him back to this country to have a good trial. >> i do not think the chinese will release him. >> oh, i think that th will. they want o maintain good trade relations. >> and not but not before they get everything out o it can? >> that theetically possible. i don't think it is part of this for trade reasons. >> okay. we thank you very much.

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we do whatever it takes to make yo biness our busine. od. helping the world keep promises. [inaudible] >> he was convicted that the world wasn't ready. neil: biggest movie opening of all time. it is hard to y. i am betting that notonly does this latest perm lok good, but comes at a time scandal weary americans are looking fo anne oranything.

>> the american people really are looking for heroes a now we have the gallup poll that shows that congress has its worst showing since 197. even some in the media rank higher. >> surprisingly, sall businesses are the second most trusted institution. sot's ally interesting. peopleewant to go to the movie and we don't have those superheroes in washiton just yet. >> members of congress do n get to th on that same thing. they remind you more were they are basicallyasily manipulated and bendable and they make a real big mess k a long time to clean up. i believe that we will see things like obamacare.

>> someone did a little analogy. i always wondered about some movies that cme hits at different times. the last superman incarnation. i'm wondering whether t environment actually helped a character likethis. >> i do not dbt it. the history of the oppression, we had all of these rch people ling a happy life. people wanted to b uplifted by the stories. we have a lot of problems in our society and in our economy right now. i do not doubt that people do want to hear this. i think it is unrealistic of them to one cngressr individual congresspeople to be their heroes. the syst just isn't set up for this collective body to produce a hero. i don't think there e any easy answers to the problem might not. neil: no one was expecting this.

no one wasxpecting it at all. so maybe we stumbled upon i when we least expect t. >> i agree wit adam i think that they're oureroes outthere. and they do sh up in the campaign tailand they are wrote. when they get into he system, something turn some away from what they intended tt do when ey first set out the. neil: what do you think? >> i thinkthat the system is set up for them not to emrge as heroes. that is not a bathing. we elect tem to go t washington and fight for us. i agree tt things e not working as well as we wish that they would. ut it is going to be confrontational. it is going to be messy. its not set up for one person to rise up and say, i will sve all of this for you.

>> we have had a lot of people do this. >>t the ment you do not realize this. >> we are blami the politicians an we elected a rockstar presint. let's honestly look at it and say if w had more lois lanes in the media, doing investigative journalism, holding these elected officials to their standard we would be living in another pace. neil: i on't think that in th latest superman movie, clark kent isn't the reporter. >> that is very odd.

>> i think it was by degn. don't think they have any attachmento this. get that out o there. neil: i always wonder how this works. >>ow long does it te them? >> you know, that is interesting >> you know, you twoare very owledgeable about the film. i haven't seen it yet. but would ally take great issuwith this. neil: i have turned o the part madame. >> i get that. >> and even though our industry is having such a hard time making money, i think we have a

vibrant media that investigating everything. we have od journalists. have bad journalists. >> exaly. the. neil: hey are backing away. even as this has xploited, it's acti of whatit was. neil: scotty, bottom line. >> i think that they will be okay. honestly, i am really not happy at they switched it around too much. superman is a classic. when y take them out for being a journalist and you make him to be a fisherman, i thk there is something wrong. neil: at adam? >> i would likto see it.

you have mexcitedbout his movie. ne: everyone have a onderfu weekend. the great father's day. >> l ladies and gentlememen, "i in the morning". don: i am watcng local newsn new w mexico let me tell you what it isit not fractionsirst. i i have a job on television may i wan take off a few pounds. oh man. some real -oh