good evening, everybody. thank you for being with us. confessed nsa leak ser edward snowden after a brief vanishing act is once again speaking and complicating the global image of the man who remains in hong kong, he says, and today he raised the stakes in his campaign against u.s. agencies and their surveillance. snowden telling the south china morning post that the united states is engaged in more than 60,000 hacking operations worldwide. snowden also said that china is one of the primary targets an of u.s. intelligence, hacking the mainframes of chinese universities, businesses, and public officials. snowden said "i am neither a

traitor nor hero. i'm an american." that was before he said he would be putting his fate in the hands of the courts and the people of hong kong instead of americans. and today's statements may explain who snowden is actually working for. and why this spectacle overwhelmed president obama's two-day summit with chinese president xi jinping and what insight do his words suggest as to why the white house still refuses to characterize the status of the man who many in connress are now calling a traitor. has the white house not noticed that general keith alexander the head of the nsa testified on capitol hill as to what edward snowden has done and the damage that he has caused. has the administration not noticed its own department of justice is drawing up charges against the leaker who has

publicly confessed his acts? some might ask, who is leading this country and in what direction. the new fox poll just released an hour ago, when asked about the current state of leadership in washington, americans said by a margin of 71%, is this best we can do? the same fox poll shows the president's job performance now underwater. only 44% of those surveyed approve of his performance. 50% disapprove. my first guest tonight resigned from the nsa after a career spanning more thannen three decades. protesting growing domestic surveillance. bening. us now is william you left the nsa in protest really over the decision by the government to the conduct surveillance seeking out terrorrsts after september 11th, 2001. you have seen, well, the history

since. what are your thoughts now about these allegations and the extent, the sweep, if you will, of the surveillance that is taking place by the u.s. government? >> well, okay. from where i sit and what i've seen and what i've read so far and what i know, they're really attacking two communication system like the public switch telephone network that includes land lines, mobile phones, satellite phones. that's a worldwide system and also they're looking at the internet and the world wide web which again is a worldwide system that is ipd addresses, 4 and 6. so those are ike phone numbers, if you will. or you can draw the analogy. and what they're doing is pulling in all the metadata to reconstruct the communities of interest or, if you will, the social networks of every individual in the world and in

particular, one of the reasons i couldn't stay there for sure was the fact that they were doing it to every u.s. citizen. i mean, my knowledge was that they were taking in about 320 million records oo long distance calls of u.s. citizens to other u.s. citizens every day. that started in october of 2001. and that's why i could not be a part of that. >> and the patriot act, which followed the authorization for the government to begin much of that surveillance, did that in any way allay your concerns? >> no, because again, you see the issue, lou, is that what they can do, the capability with that metadata is to build the entire communities like for example the tea party. would you liking to reconstruct the tea party or the occupy groups and who is central to the tea party and peripheral. and you can have the data about them, including getting their

names and if they apply for tax exempt status and you can checkk that list and see if they're on it and then target them if you want to. that's the problem with it. that's the problem with the government having so much knowledge about the citizens of the country. >> the knowledge about the citizens of the country versus the records of their communications, be whether we go to operation prism and include e-mails, video, along with the phhne calls and those voice communications, it is what you do with them. the storage in and of itself obviously deeply troubles you. others say when it is in metadata form, if you will, you don't drill down unless you have probable cause and reason and great specificity. i hear you saying that that's an illusion. >> there are two ways to prove

intelligence about any target in the world. one is to read what they're saying and pay attention to it. that gives you intelligence. the other is to build the metadata and see how they interact with one another. when you do that and time line that over a period of time, you can see who's doing what with whom and infer from just the interactions some of the activities that they're intending to do. for example, if you had a drug smuggler in colombia that wanted to smuggle drugs into the united states, he would have to communicate with someone in the united states in some form to arrange the sell and buy relationship. then you'd have to arrange with somebody to transport it. then he'd have to transfer the money. and transfer the drugs. so those things have to happen. they show up as interactions in the metadata and once you see them, you can infer that that's in fact what they're doing. so there's a lot of things you can do. you can look and see if you're having medical problems. you can see the medical doctors that you're visiting and making appointments with.

so you know, metadata is really pretty dangerous. >> pretty dangerous. it is also ubiquitous, ii is accessible. >> yes. >> and not only by certainly government, which we're talking about that balance between surveillance and civil rights. and certainly the importance of our law, but we're also talking about corporations whether they be internet companies, internet providers, whether they be large vast technology and telecommunications company, all of them sharing the very information that you've described in addition to. >> yes. >> -- the agency of the government that we rely upon top provide that surveillance and best possible knowledge and understanding of what is happening, at least in the world of the internet as you said in switch communications, as well. it becomes a very difficult, if you will, bramable and thicket

to navigate. >> there's another real danger. you have to be -- talks about trust. you have to trust the government. but you also have to trust all the people in the government because they can get on a terminal to go into the systems and look at any data base and anyone they want to. then you have to trust all the contractors maintaining the database and the query routines and insuring that the whole system works. you have to trust all them not to go into that database to look for things from other companies or something, our competitors or to look, if you wanted to see if your wife is cheating on you, you could go and do that. it's in that database. you could see relationships your wife may have and you could infer a relationship there. so you know, there's so many pitfalls and dangers at assembling all this information about individuals. >> inferring relationships also seeking out with great specificity connections from which to draw. >> yep. >> -- intelligent analysis and

conclusions which is what we want the nsa to do, which is what we want our intelligence agencies to do. and i'm left then with the trust, as you talked about famously, ronald reagan trust but verify, and my god, i think the nsa to verify, verify, verify irrespective of who the employee might be or the posiiion he or she might hold. but at the other end of this, in government who do we trust? do we trust the president, the most recent ratings suggest not. do we trust congress? hardly. their ratings are so low, we can't right now in the midst of scandal really say that the state department, the internal revenue service, the justice department merit our trust. can we? >> no. no, you can't. and there's another myth that they're really circulating around washington and they're

claiming that it's the truth. and that is that you have to collect all this data to get the terrorists. that's absolutely false. >> how so? >> there are simply two principles they have to use in collection of data and analysis to do that. one is, i call it the two-degree principle. if you have a terrorist call somebody in the united states that's the first degree. the second degree is who that person in the united states then calls. that forms a zone of suspicion, and you take that collectively along with a monitoring the jihadi advocating sites and those who advocate violence against the west and see who's accessing those. that aggregate then is your zone of suspicion. we would have gotten the ft. hood shooter and the boston bombers. they were a part of that. in fact, i do not know of anyone that won't have fallen into that category. that was the principle i was using. ppus -- >> you bring up the boston

bombing. that seems to me to be clearly a failure of human intelligence. that is, clear communication between the cia and the russian agencies, clear communication between the russian agencies an. i presume then communication between the cia and fbi, perhap% even local. we're just speculating. but that's human intelligence that was an abject failure, don't you think? >> well, i also called it the intelligence failure was also the sicken part of it. because all of those connections showed up in the call records and even. >> corroborating intelligence. >> the x fbi agent, tim clemente when he was interviewed on cnn about a week and a half ago, he said no digital communications were safe and that they will had a way of getting back to the communications between one of the bombers and his wife. >> you knoww an is we have -- and it's been fascinating

listening to you take us through this. and try as best we can to comprehend part at least of what you're talking about in the architecture of the operations of the agency and intelligence, signal intelligence. let me ask you this. do you not -- and you were talking about these nodes that are created by a series of connections whether they be communication between a jihad dist and someone in this country, whether they be subsequent communication. what do you make of an event in which the president of the united states complaining might lit about cyber attacks ends up in the cap, the southern california desert with president xi jinping for a two-day summit, cyber attacks against the united states to be a large agenda item, tough talk from the president, his administration, and suddenly that two-day summit is vaporized by someone by the

name of edward snowden. and his revelations and his forthcoming details. in that -- tell me if you find a node, a coincidence or just random circumstance in intelligence terms. >> well, it could be simply random. i ouldn't be able to say. but the entire government could have avoided all of this if they'd have been a little more honest with everything that they're doing with the public and if they would have done a proper job, a legal job, a constitutionally acceptable job. >> no question. i was asking really for the intelligence conclusion given your almost 40 years in the nsa. because i find myself you know as the host of this broadcast just scratching my head at the -- and marveling at the coincidence. >> well, there is, in fact, a probability of association.

and the question would be, did snowden know about the visit from the chinese premier and if he did, then -- and he could have connected it with that so yeah. >> well, and lots of possibilities remain for us. and will until we actually know. william binny, we thank you for being here to expand our knowledge. i assure you the fault lies with me, not you. we appreciate it so much. >> thank you. >> up next, the senate passes the first vote on the gang of 8's immigration reform legislation. but will weak border security requirements doom the legislation? immigration expert chris cobok and alinodrani join us next. noo

the national immigration forum, kris kobach, the co-author of numerous anti-immigration laws, the secretary of state of kansas and both men have been eegaged in these battles over lo these many years. gentlemen, good to have you both with us. ali, let me turn to you first. we heard the president imploring passage and at the same time there is no amendment on border security, even marco rubio says it won't happen without -- if the left continues to game the issue. >> well, i mean, up to this point, lou, we've had an open transparent process. you look back at the judiciary committee process. i mean, 13-5 bipartisan vote. a number of amendments supported by both republicans and democrats. that's the best part where we are right now. we're about to start a

thoughtful intentional debate on the senate floor how to fix our nation's immigration system and republicans will put amendments on the table and democrats are, too. all of us will be able to see exactly how this bill is going to come together. i do think we're going to see additional enforcing measures, additional measures to make sure people are protected, as well. but that's what we want congress to do. there's no other issue right now, lou, that has this kind of bipartisan momentum like immigration. i think it's going to be a really, really interesting and great summer. >> kris, this may shock you, but i'm going to agree withhali noorani and i tell you i think right now they've had the best shot they've ever had, that is those seeking a new immigration law if they have the sense and the judgment and the humility to actually secure the border. if they talk nonsense about numbers and metrics rather than an actual border that is secured by u.s. law enforcement, border

patrol especially, you know, if they game that, i think your side wins. if they don't, i think they prevail. what do you think? >> well, i think that's a big if, lou. the bill as written as virtually nothing that will help bodder enforceme enforcement. this bill will gut the enforcement we have in the status quo. it does all kinds of things to weaken border enforcement. what will they do when the amendments come up and the amendments in the committee that were serious amendments to increase border enforcement were rejected. for example, there was an amendment offered to finish the 700 miles of fence on the southern border that was promised way back in october of 2006. that was rejected..o cf1 o there was an amendment to stop the newly legalized illegal aliens from getting earned income tax credits. that amendment was rejected. if the same pattern occurs in the senate and all of these -preasonable amendments are rejected, you're going to see the vast majority of republicans vote against this bill. we'll have to see what happens.

>> and senator sessions is posing the question i posed to you before. why won't somebody he will us how many illegal immigrants will be given legal status projected with this legislation or with the course of the next decade? >> why won't somebody give us a number? as he put it, is it because they don't know the or they won't say? >>. >> this is why this is such a good piece of legislation is because what will happen for the undocumented, they'll go through a criminal background check. >> i know the process. i'm asking for a number, ali. come on. >> after you meet the criteria,o then you get to a number. giving au estimate now is speculation. that's why this process has been set up so that people are going through it. >> so any umber is fine? is there a limit? >> in a reasonable way. at this point -- at this point we have -- >> kris, go ahead. >> eventually bringing in their relatives. we could be talking about 30 million over time.

this is a huge number. one thing we also heard finally from rubio, he admitted yeah the amnesty comes first. there's no trigger at the beginning that says you have to enforce anything. they get legal status on day one virtually on day one as soon as is the department of homeland security submits some paper o congress. that means this is an amnesty first and the promise of enforcement later. but we have seen this administration shatter its promises and basically unilaterally disarm in terms of enforcement. i don't think we can trust this government and we certainly can't trust this bill. we can't trust this administration i should say. >> let me ask you. >> anyone who thinks this bill is a good idea hasn't read it. >> the last word very quickly if you will, ali. does your side in this believe they can game it and get away with it this time? >> our side, the side that includes faith, law enforcement business as well as the immigrant community across the political spectrum wants a transparent process that creates

a 21st century immigration system. the status quo is unsustainable. only the crooked employers are winning. we are wasting billions of dollars in tax money. >> i think you will win if you choose not to game it. i'm asking youu can you sit here and say you're going to be honest and straightforward and not try to game it? >> we do not want games. we want a law. >> so you will. >> we'll see what happens. >> you will not in any way try to game this system? >> lou, i feel like you're setting me up for something here. >> you what? >> i feel like you're leading me >> i'm not. i'm just asking the question seeking a straightforward answer. >> we want a transparent process that results in smart legislation. >> okay. i got it. transparent and smart. >> reasonable amendments, watch his reasonable amendments are voted down one after another and you'll see what's going to happen. >> kris kobach, ali noorani. thank you. much more on the prospectsoff the gang of 8 immigration bill

throughout tonight's broadcast. stay with us. edward snowden, the nsa leaker, hero or traitor? a lot of people are making up their minds early and it depends upon whom you ask. some strange political bedfellows in tonight's chalk % talk. ♪ rit. but the most important feature of all is... the catal one purchase eraser. i can redeem the double miles i earned with my venture card to ase recent travel puhases. d with a few clicks, this mission never happed. uh, wh's this buttono? [ electricity zaps ] ♪ you requested backup? yes. yes i did. wh's in your wallet?

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you know, we really don't know very much at all about 29-year-old edward snowden, the leaker of the national security agency's surveillance programs. but over the past few days, we've heard him described as a hero, a traitor, a whistleblower, a public servant, a fugitive, a criminal, even by some might call him a bad boyfriend. nominally you can tell where someone stands on an issue by the "r" or "d" following their name in washington, d.c. but that certainly hasn't been the case with snowden. and we wanted to go through it here very quickly. first the case for labeling him%

a traitor. let's lead off first by the speaker of the house, john boehner. boehner came out today saying flat out snowden is a traitor for showing our enemies what our capabilities are in surveillance. boehner by the way is a republican, but senator dianne feinstein, i mean, she has, well, she shares his view. she's the chair of the senate intelligence committee. she says snowden committed an act of treason. the same goes for house homeland security committee member and former chairman, republican congressman peter king who says snowden is a danger to the nation. and president obama, here he is, 2013, president obama hasn't weighed in on snowden. but his justice department is preparing criminal charges against snowden. and friday, the president defended the nsa's surveillance program saying they make a difference in preventing terrorist attacks on this country and americans. and now the case for labeling snowden and his actions heroic

if you can imagine that has happened. and none other than glenn beck and michael moore. these men couldn't be more opposite in their political views. typically. but beck tweeted out that snowden has the, as he put it, the earmarks of a real hero and moore, moore called him the hero of the year. i mean, i have to sit here and just kind of look. by the way, we want to say than as always to glenn for leaving me my chalk board. that was very nice. we want to say thank you no matter some of his views. senators mike lee and al franken. i'm going to say that again. senators mike lee and al franken. they've come together to say, well, that they're kind of behind this thing. legal a tea party favorite, franken a prominent lefty. they haven't attached a label to snowden but are backing legislation that would require our government to be more

transparent in its surveillance. now, think about this. they want to force the justice department to the declassify court opinions in this instance, court opinions operating under the foreign intelligence act or fisa the foreign intelligence surveillance court, well, that measure probably won't pass but it was worth drafting just to see this odd pairing of senators lee ann franken. don't you think? president obama, well, here he is. lookie there. look there. the difference between senator obama in 2007 and president obama, 2003. do you think this job doesn't carry with it a little weight and burd? senator, well, then senate candidate barack obama accused the bush administration back then of putting forward a "false choice" between national security and our civil liberties. he was very fired up about it. but i think it's a pretty safe

bet that the president obama now would not make the same argument because he isscaught as are we all in a very real choice between national security and civil liberties. and snowden, well, snowden right now is still very much a question mark. house speaker john boehner says he's confident the house will pake up immigration reform this year. house judiciary committee chairman bob good law an gives us an update on its status here next. y will lose 3 sets of keys 4 cell phone socks and 6 weeks of sleep but one thg you don't want to lose is any reeeth. if you wear a partial, you are almost twiwice as liky to lose your supporting teeth. new poligrip nd polident for partials 'seal and protect helps minimizetress, which may damage supportg teeth, by stabilizing your rtial.

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of immigratiin reform, the latest on the nsa leaking scandal, we're joined by the house judiciary committee chairman congressman bob goodlatte of virginia. good to have you with us.

let me first ask you for your evaluation. you are -- you've already moved forward four elements stand alone bills. phe ag act which is the agricultural guest worker program, the legal workforce act, which is e verify employer verification of those hired, the skills act for high skilled immigration which isn't being discussed on the other side of the hill, and the safe act. how confident are you that we're going to see sensible reform emerge from the house and the senate this year? >> i feel very good about the safe act that you mentioned last deals with something that is not being dealt with in the senate in any significant way, and that is interior enforcement. 35 to 40% of the people who are unlawfully present in the country entered legally. so fixing the border is certainly part of our agenda in the house, but that doesn't

cover the problem because once you're in on a student visa, visitor visa, business visa, visa waiver and you don't have the interior enforcement involving state and local government, involving other measures that prohibit the preeident from basically flipping a switch and not even enforcing aspects of our immigration loss as happens today, you're not addressing the problem. so senator cruz made some good points in the remarks you just broadcast. and we are attempting to go in a very different direction in the house where we fix all of these problems as we address the overall immigration situation. >> your incremental approach and i should point out that you and congressman troy gowdy are leading the way on the s.a.f.e. act is taking on the issues that matter the most. they are the elemental, the foundation issues if you will of illegal immigration into this country and at this point, how confident are you that you're going to have the leadership

support and the support of the house? >> we think that we have gotten a very good response from our rank and file members in the step by step approach that we're taking. and i feel very good about producing good, solid legislation that addresses these problems before we jump to the conclusions about what kind of legal status should be given to people who are not legally present in the united states. we're going to start that of process in terms of markups. we'll have an announcement on that very soon, and we're going to pursue it aggressively but don't feel we're bound by a timetable but by getting it right. >> one of the conundrums that surely faces you and all of those leading investigations and seeking to understand and to govern this massive organization we call the federal government,

there has to be an understanding that we -- the agencies we trust most in this country are the united states military and those who are, if you will, at the point of the spear in intelligence and covert operations. and then there's the ress of the government right now. and it's a strange time. we don't trust congress. every poll shows so. we trust our troops. we trust their leaders. we don't trust the president, the polls say so. we're talking about a president who's underwater with his approval ratings now. we don't trust our leadership. 71% according to the latest fox news poll, 71% says this is the best we can do? and in the midst of this, we have these folks, whether it's the state department, whether it is the justice department whom we rely on for so much and you'll be talking one of the principal leaders of the justice department, the head of the fbi.

i mean we're caught in a difficult conundrum right noo, and it seems to me a treacherous time, and it's not a play on words, i assure you. a treacherous time for all of you who are in charge of governing this great countryy. >> that's absolutely true. when you look at the benghazi scandal, you look at the ir subpoena investigation of various conservative groups, tea parties and we find far, far more array of groups that were targeted for special investigation by the irs, when you look at the use of, i would argue, extra attention for reporters who are reporting the news, a.p., the fox news reporter who is the chief washington correspondent and yet treated like a common criminal in the warrant that was sought to get his e-mails. >> we should point out he's treated that way by an fbi

agent. remember the justice department and a federal judge. >> approved by the attorney general. >> absolutely. >> the federal judge actually apologized a few weeks ago right after the attorney general testified because he realized that what he had approved and sealed, he had kept sealed for an additional 1 months longer than he had agreed to, and i think he probably realized when all of these scandals broke that he had forgotten to do that. so that actually helped us to advance our investigation considerably. it's the job of the congress and the judiciary committee to take the necessary steps to look into this newest matter and the others, of course, but this newest matter to find out what we need to do to increase the trust of the american people in their military, in their intelligence gathering, in the fbi because they do have to do their jobs but they have to do them right. if the rules need to be changed and the oversight needs to be changed, we should be prepared >> congressman, we appreciate it

so much. the wounds of war inspired a ucla surgeon to help america's wounded heroes. we'll introduce you to the doctor who started operationn mee. and the former marine who became patient zero after talking on television with me. with a machine. what? customers didn't like it. so why do banks it? hello? hello?! if your bank doesn't let you talk to a real person 24/7, you need an ally. hello? ly bank. your money needs an ally. you will lose 3 sets of keyss 4 cell phones socks and 6 wks of sleep but onthing yodon't want to lose is any more teeth. if yowear a partial, you are almost twice as kely to lo your suorting teeth.

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lou: turning now to our wounded warriors an aaazing program that provides reconstructive surgery to severely injured service members inspired in part by a conversation between a marine corporal and i talking on the air some seven years ago. it's called operation mend. and the program has treated more than 80 of our wounded warriors since 2007. joining us now is marine corporal aaron mankin, iraq war veteran, wounded in 2005, the first operation mend patient. it is great to see you, aaron.

good to have you with us on the broadcast. >> good evening, mr. dobbs. thanks for having me back on the show. >> and ronald katz, the founder of operation mend, a member of the ucla medical center board. this is great to have you with us, ronald. i've got to say that the when we heard that you had gotten the idea for this watching aaron and me talking, you know, i just sat here and sort of scratched my head and thought what a -- he was such a great spokesman for the brooke army medical center in san antonio where we met for all of our wounded veterans. i couldn't be more delighted that you found him so inspiring. >> well, i really did. he was exceptional and seeing him on your program. >> what is the program, operation mend, aaron, meant to you? you have traveled so far. i said you were wounded in an

attack. we can -- as i sit here looking at you across the way, you know, you look amazing. you know you're back to that rugged marine look that you represented throughout your life. it's been a hell of a journey though, hasn't it? >> you know, half of what we learn is from the journey gettinggfrom here to there. that was just one day in my life in iraq. severely wounded as i was. coming from that point now having endured nearly 60 surgeries in the past eight years and having a program like operation mend be there for me as a resource just having served my country and come home and have my country want to serve me in such a unique way to provide such specialized care is to give me back a sense of my humanity, to give me my normal back to who

i was. it's invaluable. i can't thank ron or ucla medical systems or brooke army medical center, everyone who is touched my life along the way, i can't thank them enough, including you, sir. >> i did nothing. you know, i had the honor of reporting your story and getting to know you and it's a treasured honor, i assure you. ronald, let me ask you this. you've been seeing money, various funding, government the work, i've got to believe that people when they heard me say 80 patients they thought, wellny people but until they meet the folks who need the help and the -- you know, that's a huge number. tell us what we can do to help you. >> well, as you recognize, we deal with very severely injured patients, and it's not a single

surgery that takes placeebut basically in aaron's case, it's a large number of surgeries. and you have to really pay attention to these folks. the services that we provide are completely free. everyone that participates gets to come to ucla, and we bring their family too because we think the family component is critical. and to be able to care for people like aaron and their families and give them this experience along with all of the people in los angeles that have kind of gravitated to these young men and women, it's a very exciting community experience really. >> well, we want to put up on the screen where our viewers can help out if they are so -- if they so want. i hope that you do. operation mend.ucla.edu. aaron, partner, it's great to see you. i'm delighted that you're doing

so well, and i know those kids of yours, your daughters mean the world to you. i wish you all the very best and look forward to seeing you soon. >> thank you. >> aaron, thank you very much. ronald, thank you for all you've done. we will help. you continue your good work. >> thank you. >> up next, in his new sbook american gun," we'll be talking with william doyle and about, well, a fascinating study with chris kyle, the allen marine sniper. william doyle next. we nt out and asked people a simp question:

how old is the oldest pson you've known? we gave people a stick and had them show us. we learned a lot of us have known someone who's lived well into their 90s. and that's a great thing but even though we're ling longer, one thing that hasn't changed much is the official retirement age. ♪ the qstion is how do you make sure you have the money you need to enjoy all of these years. ♪

at the time of chris kyle's tragic death in february of this year, he was finishing up a book that defined his passion with

guns. american sniper, a runaway best seller. "american gun" tells the tory of how ten unique american firearms shaped the history of this country. kyle reveals how firearms innovation, creativity and industrial genius pushed our history and power. here on behalf of chris kyle and co-author of "american gun," is william doyle. >> great to be here, lou, on behalf of chris kyle. % >> i always love authors. you guys never trust me to have a copy of the book. it's a terrific book. we recommend it to you. it is fascinating me that you took this idea, ten guns or weapons, are if you prefer, that are remarkable. you're talking about the long rifle, the repeater, the spencer repeater, the colt .45, the peaccmaker, the stuff that we grew up on as kids. the winchester rifle, the 73,

the 94, any number of these lever action rifles that are just terrific parts of american western history and history. tell us about the relationship between guns and america, if you will, broadly. >> chris kyle thought that there was an amazing series of stories to be told about how guns have shaped american history and they have. whether -- no matter where you are in the political spectrum and this is a book not about politics but about great american history. krauttthought, it's important for us to know, for example, abraham lincoln was a gun buff. and a technology geek. abraham lincoln had a shooting range of his own behind the white house. and he would go back there and fire off rounds at targets to test new gun technologies. in fact, one day he was crouched down shooting, and the police came by because there was a rule against that in washington at the time. and they started hollering and cursing at him and ran over to grab the gun from him, and abe lincoln, the witness described,

uncoiled himself higher, higher, and higher. and presented himself and then they realized the police realized, my god, that's old abe himself. and they ran away. and lincoln said whoa, they might have stuck around to see the shooting. so presidential gun buffs are intereeting or the involvement of presidents and guns. teddy roosevelt helped create the springfield 1903 rifle that our troops are still using a version of around the world today. and john kennedy was intimately involved in designing the m-16 which we use today. it's a fascinating connection, isn't it. >>. >> absolutely. the m-16 which supplanted the m-14 and the old m-1 garand rifle, the 30 aught 6, such a magnificent part of our history. many gun buffs still consider to be one of the finest weapons ever designed. >> the m-1 saved the world because my father and so many members of the greatest generation had that gun by their

side in combat zones in world war ii. that gun was better than the japanese version, and it was better than the german standard shoulder rifle. now that counts for history and it counts for saving american % lives. that's the interesting interplay between technology and move offing our history forward and back, with putting food on the table, expanding the country. you know, we know about the crimes quite well, but i think what we've forgotten is the connection that guns have to our military history and to our freedom in many ways. >> absolutely. when we talk about guns that you know that won the west, we're talking about the peacemaker, we're talking about the spencer, we're talking about the winchester repeating arms. it is a terrific idea, brilliantly executed. you got another big winner on your hands, and i'm sure that chris kyle would be thrilled with the result. >> thanks a lot. >> thank you very much. good to have you with us. william doyle, the book is, as i

said "american gun." it's on sale. now online or at bookstores everywhere, go to lou dobbs.com for links, as well. we'll see you here tomorrow. thanks for being with us. good night from new york. share. a better life for your family, a bett opportunity for your business, a bter legacy to leave the world. we have always believed in thihis pursuit, striving to bring insight every investment, and integrity to every plan. we are morgan stanley. d we're ready to work for yo given way to sleing. tossg and tuing have where sleepless nights yield to restful sep, like it has for soone camany people before.e, do not take luneif you are allergic to anything in it. liwhen taking lunea,e camany people before.e, don't drive or o machinery unt.

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