lou: all of the rat traps that we just end up making for smarter rats. welcom everybody, neil cavuto. after all of the scandal revelations inthese elaborate systems to go after bad guys, the bad guys get smarter and avoid them. congressman mike rogers isn't giving a specifics but he is saying that they are changing eir behavior by apparently not using the techlogies on which we are spying. whether that meanswe are not sending text messages, i frankly

have no idea, but it is prety clr at the bad guys are finding other ays. so we are very muchn the line. all of these pone call breeches and e-mail breeches and tex bridgesand all of it forfor nothing. the guy who leaked them, far from here. edwards noted in asking for protection from the chinese government. i think it's it is safe to say that the chinese will comply and it i probably not to his liking. to the military exrts who say@ that that iswhat happens when stuff like this gets out, the former assistant seccetary of defense is that once it is out, we always have another way to move around. wayne simmons is with us.

he has a ard handndshake and he can crush you with that. [applause] >> let's get to it onceethis gets rleased, any smart bad guys going t find a way around ts, right? >> absolutely. t only aay around it, but in the past were either criminal orgazaons were terrorists found out, somemes they find a way to trk our communities but dismantled organization with what they believ to be what we know about. not only do we have to find them again, but we have to figure out who to find and what networks and groups to fin again. lou: you are sang that he was ahero.

but no, he is not. how do you feel? >> i a confident that my position has only en strengthened snce we ound out that he's being debriefed by the intelligence apparatus. this is absolutely spot on when she says that it's very damaginn. because what is outhere in the united states or around the world, the first thing that they do are using human capabilits which are messages being used and sent by runners as opposed to getting on the phone or getting on the iternet. is gointo make our job much more difficult, especially since we no longer ave the human intelligence capabilities that we once had.

neil: worthiest straegies or methods, the iphone records were they crucial in tracking down bad guys? >> i guess we had his wih the boston bombings and that did not stop the wo brothers. >> i do not have inside information in this particular program. but being able to track the communications not only hose wiin and passing to the uted states, but is not a data is critical not only to identify and track and have insight into wh the organizations are doing, but in the case of the bombings and other activities that we did not get ahead of. to go back and see what did we mi and how do we reetablish d get insight into possible future ac

nnil: i know you're alking about those who w were harming s and wanted to do thisto kill us but i think that itis a god thing that this came to light. in the name of potecting u, my immediate retion was what is this all about. so i'm going to ask you that. what the heck is this all about. say what you will about the bd guys and now we will find ways around it. why was this happening in the first place and to what end. how could it possibly be ood. >> happily i will do so. >> i wl say that the concerns are justified. i ve no reason to think that

those americans feel the way you do, butthey are not justified. i will tell you this. this goes back directly ,-com,-com ma in my opinion, directly to not nly bruce allen, but the cia nd at the nsa. because we have progra called coterintelligence risk indicators. the are programs that are cotantly run against our own people. only to continue tomonitor them with a top-secret clearance. especially thosehat have access to intelligencend they need to continue to monitor. so they can find out if ou stdards have changed. that is where i have the biggest problem is we want to counte that, we have too many people talking about that. we hve 1.4 million americans

have the ability to o what snow today. but there are a lotof people whhave a lotof good. >> mt people understand that they are compartmented. which means that they are segregated. neil: you don't thinkhey're more there are more like him >> i hope that there are not a lot more like him. >> okay. well, maybe you can ki butt here. >> be careful. >> i could imagine. thank you both very much. the congressman is trying to doesn't go overboard. have a bll in the congressman is explaining what

this bill is about. >> thank you for having me on again. it is a bill that i'm working on with john conyers, he is the ranking democrats. weave a lot of cosponsors d what we are trying to do is narrow the scope of the patriot act so that it only targeting the peophat we want target, foeign agents. neil: how would you know? >> you may not know that the innocent party is the culprit. >> under the way it is eing interpreted, they are treating lamericans this way. that is why when you hear this, it is being de under the patriot ac. whether that is being figured as relevant information, even thoughll of those people and most of the people, most of em

have no tie to terrism. il: as you know, iplay an expe on tv. [laughter] neil: think i qualify. >> i think by trying to hold back on thi sweeping spying of eryone, you end up missinga lot of folks by bringing it back to just the folks who you think are potential people. >> we have a fourth amendment and have to follow it. you can also eliminate all rrorism within the united states by having this. they can watch everyone's family all day. neil: i ha joe lieberman on te phone and he was with me last night. you know, i can't get int specifics, but i can tell you thathis very program has led to trouble.

you know, you never know. but now you rein it in. i am with you o this. heaven knows what will come our way. >> you cannotse anecdes to sti this. the reasothe founders put in place is to protecc our rights. there is a balance between security and liberty. it is presented in the constitution and the fourth amendment.@ that is what we want to protect. it is important to note that a lot of membersof congress aren'teven givenaccss to the law because the secret court opinions-- we do not know unless you are on this committee. we do not know how the law is actually working. neil: will be part of the powow of the individuals? >> it has not chaged my mind.

if anything, it has emboldened me. we have clasified briefis. there are documents that we would want access to. though that'm working on with representative conyers, it would provide us crital formation so that we can represent our constituen. >> thank you, sir >> thank yo, neil. neil: i have not even otten into the latest news this week. as we have reported, the very sa law that we are coming to find tha loow-wage worke, they can'afrd this. wasn't tt the point of wasn't tt the point of affordable health i go ahead oyou?

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>> there is nowhere to go. i represent this party. you said tha the rent is too high. neil: i love that guy. where is this guy when you need him? w, apparently this health care law talks about the ninred. and many were supposed to hp cannot afford it. going onto liz macdonald. scotty, that is incredible. >> it is incredible but expected. we knew that like all scalatg problems, affordable health care is just going to sit there. we are making sure thathose who cannot afford it could.

neil:the other guys who don wantit, they were going to be part othis, they can't afford it. we turned everything upside down it is so high andffordable at it y be out of reach. we have both sides to worout the kinks and now we have the irs it is going to dictate what is affordable e and what is adequate coverage as the wave of the future. neil: adam? >> ifind this an amusing idea. >> what we have instead is that this care is unaffordable for some of the workers involved. because there was an exception

put in for some of the employers. this was an effort to make this easier.3 this is a piece of legislation that needs work. one amng many this that nneds work. >> ok, augment or remove dust and make the insurance affordable. >> we are excusing a lot law that everyone work it out. when it comes loadedith 20 plus taxes. >> you could stop this train wreck even though it is the law of the land. you coud stop it now and start start from scratch. >> getting it on track, it's already a train wreck. it never should have gotten out of the nation itself. health insurance is being

governed by the depament of heal and humanervices and the irs is policing it. why are we allowing this? nothing made sense about this bill. this is a plitical stand to try to sit here and take over. including the orders of barack obama continuing to say that he has health care. @% will literally put us in grave. >> okay, it kind of reminds me of this. the fact of the matter is that it has gaping wounds everywhere. >> and feelslike that because it seems like there's a ot of band-aids on i i get it. but that is part of the problem the way that they ramm it through. is very cosy to do that, it puts a lot of this on the irs.

it makes a lot istakes that host of other things that thea government asks us to o. >> imean, are you going to have the irs do this to the degree they planned to do it or are you going find a way to make his more affordable so more participate because you me an exemption for lot of tm. you take that away, part-time, full-tim you see what i'm getting at. you have to undo a lot of thi. >> why not look back and say th it's not worth it. try it from scratch. >> well, i'm thinking of a compprison part of the public works project. you cannot un- dig the ditches i'notsaying this is a perfect piece of legislation.

if we had a number ofeople who are getting health insrance, which is one of the achievents of the legislation, r killer on the other hand, i understand thatat you all would like to kil . i think let's make it better. >> i would just say this. e are th basic points that we have disrupted and upended our entire health cresystem. we are pretty satisfied with that coverage. fothe 10%%who did not, we are not always so keen on this. some are not interested on taki it on. others cannot afford it. all of that for hat? >> well, that is the thing that we have toook at. we did this to help our economm. but we have seen is that people are not hiring full-time employees because people are

having two or three part-me jobs because their bosses cannot afford obamacare. we are seeing the unemployment lines growing because of obamare and we are going to see it even more. neil: you would think that adam would feel guiy, but he does not. >> we didt to give more people access to heath care. il: all of those 10%, hey nerally weren't always into it. t the bottom line is or what? >> i wld just say that we are not dne. >> but we should never have let it start. neil: in the meantime, quit mplaining about the nsa.o÷ó]çs

neil: the next time you are asked whether youshould agree to the terms and conditions coming you better read all of them. one of my favore lawyers says this whle nsa right to spy on to is pretty much all spelledts out there. a teeny tiny black-anwhite. >> on the one hand at it like yoagree to thi on the other hand it is all in the name of national secuity. >> where did i agr to this? >> somewre in the 20 or 30 or 40 paes that you need a triple sized magnifying gss to read, it is in there. but it is so easy these days he just click on a button.

neil: nowhere did it say the nsa caspy on you. but to your pnt, there are a lot of vue references to e send and third parti. we reserve the ight. neil: yes, we reserve the ght and that is a populaa line. they say that any timm we do this, itill be onths. >> wl, there you go. i mean, it is aazing and we take it for graed. >> but if we don't sign that are kept at. >> we don't say that. >> only until the is a problem. once you have a problem in the attorney general's accent, ut

consumer would actually be able to read that. it is part of an agreement and you ve to agree to make it very easy for someone to read it and undetand it and conspicuous enoughhthat it s very important that we pay atteion. neil: you know, it is actually spelled ot that you signeup for this. t it doesn't say that you might have this where you wl have to deal with it. but it is such a broad overview such a warning heads that almost anything can happe including geing attacked by aliens. you shou just deal with it. >> your liility, and we see %-go righ to theeagreement. go to the ticket. there are and limitations of liability.

>> tre are many peop who are curious. >> so no what doouou say to americans? >> someone should step up to the plate and say that i am going to create a new company where you don't have to agree to this and if anyone makes me, i'm going to say that this is america and you better have a cot order signed by a juge. neil: i'm going to make them sign an agreement r me. >> well, maybe t cups and a string will be your phones. [laughter] 's the one i hate lawyers, not like you, but i do hate hem. [laughter] neil: thank you much. well, we arerying ep

track of these indiduals at the irs. willur next gue will talk about this comg out next [ male announcer ] ah... retirement. sit ba, lax, pull out the per and what? another article that says investors could lose tens of thousands of dollars in hidden fees on their 401(k)s?! you don't believe it? search it. "401(k) hidden fees." then go to e-trade and roll over your old 401(k)s to a new e-trade retirement account we have every type of retirement account. ne of them charge annual fees and all of them offer low cost investments why? because we're not your typical wall stet firm that's why. so you keep more of your mon. e-tre. less for us. you will lose 3 sets of ks cell phones 7 socks and 6eeks osleep but one thing you don't want to lo is any more teeth. ifou wear a partial, you are almost twice as likely to lo your supporting teeth. new poligrip and polident for partials

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your brakes are gone. your catalytic converter, maybe ditch the car? beeen rgeting personal health recordsnd those refusing credit cards, mabe just dch the irs. wehave melissa francis here. there is a lot of craziness. >> it is out of control and no one would like to get rid of them more than i would. please do not both me. neil: look at you. [laughter] >>hat is right. obviously it is nogoing to happen. but it seems lie every cabinet we open here, sometng else cos up. more than a thousand cases in the past two years, they have employees who misuse their corporate credit card for he

irs. theyidn't have enough funds in the account cover i, they did all ese things. and then they found that they weren't even punishing them for that they were more lenient wh their employers and their employees were with the taxpayer. neil: do you think any of this -- and we talk about a lot of coconservative tea pparty actios the. >> i wish. >> i don't think we will see much of this. >> people keep saying that we have all of the harings. we are gin to have a big form. i don't think that's going to happen. this is the problem with government. this is why we don't want government -- the person has to be sitting there for it to be spent properly. they are invisible handlers. that is why capitalism wrk.

if the guy who owns the store isn't there very oten, me candy goes missing. the guy who was working there -- neil: if you are chaing $5 for a pack of gum, some people would steal it. >> i don't think we get to the fufundamtal problem at times great we don't do that, none of this will change the. il: yes. >> it s the same thing where we saw headlines of what was going on with our taxpay money. you laugh and then you cried. neil: so this is kind of fritted away? >> probablnot even that. i don't think a lot changes i think that this is the fundamtal problem with government. u put people in chage monitor other people and corption s ver. >> we forgetthat right aer watergate, there were all of

thesou know, the lawsand new rules that were put in. >> they are far away in washington. you can see wha these people are doin otherwise it gets ouof control and it is human nature. you cannotelp it. ne: lissa francis, thank you so much. this just in, icroft excel is coming to the iphone. and the rest comes withit. and the rest comes withit. actuly the heat may have copd makes it hard to breathe... but with advair, i'm breathing better. soow i c help make this a great block party. ♪ [ male announce ] advair is clinically proven to help significantly improroe lung function. uike mostopd medications, advair contains oth an anti-inflammatory and a long-acting bronchodilator working together

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and we're readyto work . otherworldly things. but there are some things i've never seen before. this ge jet engine cannderstand 5,000 data samples per second. which is good for business. bause planenes use less fuel, spend less time on the ground and more time in the air. suddenly, faraway places don't seem so...far away. ♪ neil: this just in. apple is not dead yet. that has not stopped it from hooking up wh microsoft in what could be a very big development.

ssecifically, microsoft site of programs includingord and excel e coming to an iphone near you. maybe that comes later with the ipad. we he a guest on whether this opening item confirms that this is that of a copycat. what do you think? >> i think apple is a opycat. >> y are taking a product that everybody doesn't like, you are share.g about losing market i don't understand why it is a bi del. >> why don't you just play along >> let me show you how it is done. it is henous because they have to choose this. they are in a position where google is the one who is kiling

them. they are killing microsoft and apple at the same time. so apple has to make their hardwar more exciting. that's gave up on other things >> crrtical revews. what do you think. are you buying this? >> n im not. how many are you going gi away? the businesses that are signing up, they have to wait a long ti. they have to wait a whe to get eir moy. it's a difficult situation. another competitor as well. that doesn't make sense, don't buyit. >> we think it will be the leader? >> yes, it wilbe because of mobile. when you c have global positioning with all of the smart phones, you're walking by

them down the street. and ttey give you n offer. it is a 50% offeron something that you like and you get this, that model works because it's in the present. so this modelel will work. they do haveethis. and do think that it is worth the $9. >> that is true. >> we have majornews controversy this week. finally, if group on his back upon, is this back on? it is hard pressed. you know, i look at it and would we make of what this is telling us? >> the nikkei is saying that

obviously when the japanese federal reserve started in september, they said look me in the eye, read my lips. it is going u and the yen is going up very high. so everybody went into that trade. i think that a three bladed blind dog could do that. when the music stops, everybody went out the same door. the power f hat includes that we will not have one more run because of the money that we made. >> that's an interesting point. thousands of miles from our own sure, i don't buy it. >> exaly. there part time every year. the thing is that the&p500

has been directly correlated for a lo time.@ what that means for people thinng abouten bernanke and how we are doing things here, w3 may nt like to admit it, but it is critical to what is happening. neil: how many central banks are basis? so you're you are free to what is going to happen? >> well, finish up. >> okay. >> if they back ff, you will have to step up to a rogram that is three tim the size of a proportional basis of what it is doing here. >> it is a suicide mission for econics. they want to have iflation. if they are successful in getting this, the interest ates are going to have to go up and they will lose value and then the whole thg crumbles.

so it is a mission and yet they have 500 baby boomers are thee retiring and withdwing money aad it is goingo end bad the. neil: okay. we wl see how it goes. thank you both so much. this guy can be a free speech revolutionary. i want y to meet a former i want y to meet a former speech wistleblower. if you've got it, you know how hard it can be to breathe and man, you know how that feels. copd includes emphysema and chronic bronchitis. spiriva is a once-daily inhaled copd maintenance treatment that helps open my obstructed airways for a full 24 hours. you know, spiriva helps me breathe easie spiriva handihaler tiotropium bromide inhation powder

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neil: brookline isnot sure what to make of edwards noted that he does know what could come of all the buzz created.

because before, there as a certain unassuming technician. mark had discovered that t compy was allowing the gornment to steal a t of customer data and further do s without a pont. thcompany just did it again and aain. that was seven years ago. it is pretty sobering stuff whe i look back at whatou went through and what you dealt with and what you warned us about. it got eveyone involved and it continues. >> it with a legal background. i still thi ii is illeal. it depends on how much outrage there is in he country.

congss is nning scared. both parties are. neil: it can e short-lived. it was in your case seven years ago. i do remember quite well this outrage. but it did not last. i would hink that this may have been enough for this stuff. >> it is because congress in both parties, republican and democratic put a lid onmass by including the immunity bill that gave immunity to the phone companies. and then they made it look like ings were fixed. neil: so they essentially lked abouthis. the environment at the time was we wereknee-deep in iraq. this ws a primary concern.

but we had reminders the summer before. maybe that was dominating the coersation. >> i think it is created b the mistration to make people scared. you know, but this did not happen in boston, didn't? >> no, it did not. do you see him as a misguided case? >> i thi this man as a hroic figure who akes a principl stands for the constitution. that is perfectly clear. and here it is a great danger. d great while doin was

exposed. the. neil: at there was a process for that. >> i don't know what itwas in yourase. but there isn inspector general. have you noticed that we have over 100 million americans phone records and we are doing this willy-nilly and we are increasing it. >> he learned fm the experience of previous whistlebwers. he quit right after/11. heound out that there was apparatus only on foreigners but domestically as well. they raided his house. there was an individual who went through channels, he wwent through the inspector general. he wento congressional

mittees. he was basically not listened to. they were watching all this happen over the years and they realize thathis ts you nowhere. you have to get out there and at is the only reason and the on way we are having this conversation now. >> whais going to happen t him? >> i do not know. i suspect that they wold like to capture him physically and bring him back to th country to have a good tal. >> i do not think the chiese will release him. >> o oh, i think that they will. they want o maintain good trade relations. >> and not butot before they get everything out of it can? >> that is theorically possible. i don' think it i part of this for trade reasons. >> okay. thank you ery much

>> thank you. >> not a moment o soon. never mind whether superman will be a hit. what is going on with all of these scandals. these scandals. i ththat it at a dry cleaner, these scandals. i ththat it replaced people with a machine. what? customerdidn't li it. so why do banks do it? hello? hello?! if your bank doe't let you talk to a real person 24/7, ... ... up meeting a lot more people but a friend under water is something completely dferent. i met a turtle friend today so, you don't get that very often. it seemed like it was more tha.

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th find out how to get lunesta for as low as $15 atunesta.com there's a land of restful sleep, we can help yogo there, on the wings of lunesta. [inaudible] >> he was convicted that the worlwasn't rey. neil: biggest movie opening of all time. it is rd to say. i am betting tt not only does this latest perman look good, but it comes at a tim scandal weary americans are looking for anyone or anything. >>he american people really

are looking for heroes and now we have the gallp poll that shows that cgress has its worst showing since 1973. even some in media rank higher. >> surisingly, small busesses are the second most trusted institution. so it'really iteresting. peopleant to go to the movi and we don't have those superheroes in washington just yet. >> members of congress do n geto the on that se thing. they remind you more ere they are basically easily manipulated and bendable and they make a really big mess ask a long time to clean u. i believe that we will see things like obaacare. >> someone did a little nalogy.

i always wondered about some movies that come hits at different times. the last superman incarnation. i'm wondering whether the environment actuay helped a character like thiss. >> i do not doubt it. the history of the oppression, we had all othese rich peple living a happy life. people wanted to be uplifted y those tories. we have a lot of problemsn our society and in our economy right now. i do not doubt that people do want to hear this. i think it is unrealistic of them to one congress or individual congresspeople to be their heroes. the system just isn't set up for this collective body to produce a hero. i don't thk there are any easy swers to the problem might not. neil: no one was expecting is.

no one wasxpecting it at all. so maybewe stuled upon it when we least expect t. >> i agree with adam. i think th they'reur heroes ou the. and they do show up in the campaign trail and they are wrote. when they get into the system, someththing turn some away from what they intendedtt do when they first set out the. neil: wat do you think? >> i think that the sytem is set up for them not to erge as heroes. that is not a bad thing. we elect them to go to washington and fight for us. i agree that things are not working well ase wish that they would. but it is goi to be confroational. it is going to e messy. it is not set up for one person to rise up and say, i will solve all of this for you.

>> we have had a lot of people do this. >> at the moment you doot realize this. >> we are blaming the politicians and we elected a rockstar president. let's honestly look at it and say ifwe hd more lois lanes in the media, doingnvestigative journalism, holding these elected officials to their standards, we would be living in anotherplace. neil: i n't think that in this latest superman movie, clark kent isn't the reporter. >>hat is very odd.

>> i think it was by design. i don't think they have any attachme to this. get that out of there. ne: ialways wonder how this works. >> how long does it take them? >> you know, that is interesting >> you know, you two are very knowledgeable about the film. i haven't se it t. but i would really take grea issue with this. neil: i hae urned on the part of madame. >> i get that. >> and even though our indtry is having such a hard ti making money, i think we have a

vibrant media that is investigating everything we have good journalists. we have ba journalists. >> exactly. the. neil: theyare backing away. even as ths as eloited, it's a fraction of what it was. il: scotty, bottom line. >> i think that they will be hostly, i ameally not ppy that they switched it around too much. surman is a classic. when you take them out for being a journalist and you make him t be aisrman, think there is something wrng. il: a adam? >> i would like to see it.

you have me eited about this movie. neil: eryone have a wondrful weekend. the great fath's day. ♪ ♪ >> tom: the scandals are flying. every day a new revelation in the name of our safety, has the government gone too far? let's begin talking about what to do with the leakers. edward snowden right here and right now. >> tom: thanks for joining us. here at the top of the stack. everyone by now has heard ed snowden. at first he was at any rater to i wanteding in washington but hero to many people across the country. his first revelation was simply that government is spying on us, its citizens. will that change s