show.com. have we'll have another great tv show next week and in the meantime, i hope to hear you on the radio. good evening, everybody. ank you for bng with us. nfessed nsa leak ser edward snowden after a brief vanishi act is once again speakinand mplicating the global image of the man who remains in hong kong, he says, and today h raised the stakes in his campaign aainst u.s. agencies and their surveillance. snowden telling the south china morning po that the united states is engaged in more than 60,000 hacking opations worldwide. snowden also said that china is one of therimary targets an of u.s. intellince, hacking the mainframes of chinese universiti, businesses, d public officials.

snowden said "i neher a traitor nor ho. i'an america" that was before he saidhe would be putting his fate in the hands of the courts and t people of hong kong instead of americans. and today's statements may explain who snoen is actlly working for. and why this spectacle erwhelmed president obama's two-day summit with chinese prident jinping and wha insight do his words suggest as tohy the white house still refuses to characterize the status of the man who ma in connress are now calling a traitor. has the white house not noticed th general keith alexander e head of the nsa testified on capitol hill as to what edward own haone and the damage that he hascaused. has the administration not noticed its own department of juste is drawing up carges against the leaker who has

publicly confessed his acts? some might as who is leading this cotry and in what direion. the new fox poll just released an hour a, when asd about the current state of leadership in washington, amecans said by a margin of 71%, is this bst can do? the same fox pl shows the president's job performance now underwater. only 44% of those surveyed approve of his performance. 50% disapprove. my first guest tonight resigned from thensa after a career spanni more thanne three decades. otesting growing domestic surveillan. bening. us nowis willia you left the nsa in protest really over the decision by the government to the conduc rveillance seeking out terrorrsts after september 11th, 20.

you have seen, well, the history since. what are your thoughts w about these allegations and the extent, the sweep, if you will, of the surveillance that is taki place by the u.s. government? >> well,okay. from where i t and what i've seen and what i've read so far and wt i know, they're really attacking two communation system like the public switch telephone network that includes land linesmobile phones, satellite phones. that's a rldwide system and also they' loong at the internet and the wor wide web which again is a worldwide system that is ipd addresses, 4 and 6. sohose are ike phone numbers, if you will. or you can draw the analogy. and wt they're doing is pulling in all the metadata to reconstruct the commities of interestor, if you will, the social networks of every individual in the world and in

partular, one of the reans i couldn'ttay there for sure was theact that th wereoingt to every u.s. citizen. i mean, m knowledge was that they were taking in about 320 million records oo long distance calls of u.s. citizens to other u.s. citizens every day. that started in october of 2001. d that's why i could not be a part of that. >> and the patriot act, which followed the authorization for the government to gin muc of that surveillance, did that in any way allay your concerns? no, because again, you see the issue, lou, is tt what they can do, the cpability with that metada is t buildthe entire communities like for exame the tea party. would you liking to reconstruct the tea par or theoccupy groups and whos central to the tea pay and peripheral. and you can havethe data about

them, including getng their names and if they apply for tax exempt status and yu can checkk that list and see if they're on it and then tget them if you wanto. that'she problem with it. that's the problem witthe govement having so mh knowdge about the citizens of th country. >> the knowledgebout the citins of the country versus the records of eir communications, be whether we go to operation prismnd include e-mails, video, along with the phhne calls and those voice counications, it is what you do with them. the storage in and of it others say when it is in you. metadata form, i you will,ou don't drill down unless you have probable cse and reason and grgreat specificity. i hear you saying tat that's an illusion. >> there are two ways to prove

intelligence about any target in the world. one isto read what they're saying and pay attention to it. that gives you ielligence. the otheris build the metadata and see how they interact wite another. when you do that a time line that over a perio of time, you can see who's doing what with whom and inr from just the interactions some of the activities that they're intending to do. for example, if you had a dru smuggler in colombia that wanted to smuggle drugs into the united stat, he wouldhave to communicate with someone in the united states in some form to arrange the sell a buy relationship. then you'd have to arrange with somebody to transport it. then he'd have to transf the money. and transfer the drugs. so those things have to happen. theyhow up as interactions in the metadata and once you see them, you can infer that that's in fact what they're doing. so the's lot of things you can do. you can look and se if you're having medic problems. you can see the medical doctors that you'resiting and ming appointments with.

so you know, madata is really pretty dangerous. >> pretty dangerous. it is also ubiquitous, ii is accessible. >> yes. >> and not only by certainly govement, whiche're talking about that balance between surveillance and civil rights. and certain the importance of our w, but we're also talking about corporations whether they be internet companies, internet provider whether they be large vast technology and telemmunications comny, all of themharing the very information that you've descbed in addition to. >> yes. >>- the agency of the government that we rely upon t provide that survllance and st possible knowledge and understanding of whats happening, at least ithe world of the internet as you said in switch communicationsas well. it becomes a very difficult, if you will, bramable and thicket

to navigate. >> tre's another real danger. you ha to be -- talks abou trust. you ha to trust the governnt. but you also have to trust all the people in the government because they can get on a terminal to gonto the systems anlolook at any data base and anne they want to. then you he to trust all the contractors mataining the database and the query routines and suring that the whole system works. you have to trust all them not to go into that database to look for ththings from other compani or something, our competitors or to look, if you wanted to see if your wife is cheating on you, you could go and d that. it's in that datas u could see relionships your wife may he and you cld fer a relationship there. so you know, there's so many pitfls and dangers at assembling all this information about individuals. >> inferring relationships also eking out with great specificity connections om which to draw. yep.

>> -- intelligent analysis and conclusions which is what we want the nsa to do, which is what we wa our intelligence agencies to do. and i'm lef then with the trust, as you talked about famously, ronald reagan trust but verif and my god, i think the nsa to very, verify, verify irrespective of who the employ might be or th posiiion he or she might hold. but at the other end of this, in government who do we trust? do we trust the president, the most recent rangs suggest not. do we trust congress? hardly. their rangs are so low, we can't right now in the midst of andal really say thathe state department, the internal revenue service, the justice department merit our trust cawe? >> no. no, you can't. and there's another myth that they're really circulating

around washington anthey're claiming that it's thetruth. and thats that you have to collect all this da to get the terrorists. that's absolutely false. >> how so? >> ther a sily two prinples ty have to use in collecon of data and analysis do that. one is, i call it the two-degree principle. if you have terrort call somebody in the unitedtes that's theirst degree. the se degree is o that person in the united states then calls. that forms zone of suspion, and u take that collectively along with a monitoring the jihadi advocating sites and those who advocate olence against the west and see who's accessing those. that aggregate then is your zone of suspicion. we would have gottenthe ft. hood shooter and the boston bombers. they were a part of that. in fact, i not know ofanyone that won't have fallen into that category. that was the principle i was using. ppus -- >> you bring up the boston

bombing. that seems to me to be clearly a failure of human telligence. that is, clearar communication between the cia and the russian encies, clear cmmunication between the russian agencies and the fbi. i presume th communication between the cia and fbi, perhap% even local. we're just speculating. but that's human intelligence that was an abject failure, don't you thi? >> well, i also called it the inlligence failure was also the sicken part of it. because all of those connections shed up in the call records and even. >> corroborating intelligence. >> the x fbi agent, tim clemente wh he was intervied on cnn aboua week and a half ago, he said no digital comnicatis were safe d that they will ha a way of getting back to the communications between one o the bombers a his wife. >> you knoww an is we have -- and it's been fascinating

listening toou take us through this. and try as best can t corehend part at least of what you're talking about in t architecture of the erations of the agcy and intelligence, signal intelligence. let me ask you this. do you not -- and you were talkg about these nodes that are created by a series of connections whether they be communication between a jihad dist and someone in this country, whether they be subsequent communicaon. of the you make of an event in united stes complaining might lit about cyber attacks es in the cap, the southern california desert with president xi jinpi for a twday summit, cyber attas against the united ates to be a large agenda item, tough talk from the president, his administration, and suddenly that two-day summit

is vaporized by someone by the name of eard snowden. and his revelations and h forthcoming details. in that -- tell me if you find a node, a coincidence or just random circumstance in intelligence terms. >> well, it could be simply random. i ouldn't be abable to s. but the entire government could have avoidedll of this if they'd have been lite more honest with everything that they're doing with the public and if they would have done a proper job, a legal job, constitutionally acceptable job. >> no question. i s asking really y for the intelligence conclion given your almt 40 years in the nsa. because find myselfou know as t host of this broadcast just scratching my head at the -- and marveling atthe cocidence. >> well, there is, in fact, a probability of association.

and the question would be, did snowdennow about the visit from the chinese premier and he did, then- and he coul have connected it with that so yeah. >>ell, and lots of poibilities remain for us. and will until we actually ow. williambinny, we thank you for ing here toxpand our knowledge. i assure you the fault lies with me, not you. weppreciate it so much. >> thank you. >> up next, the senate passes the first vote on the gang of 8's immigration reform legislation. but will weak border security requirements doom e legislation? with the spark miles card from capital one,

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the national immigration forum, kris kobach, the co-thor of numerous anti-immigration laws, the secretary state of kansas and both men have been eegaged in these battles over lo these many years. gentlemen, good to have you both with us. ali, let me turn to you first. we heard the president imploring passage and at the same time there is no amendment on brder security, even marco rubio says it won't happen without -- if the left continues to game the issue. >> well, i mean, up to this point, lou, we've had an open transparent process. you look back at the judiciary committee process. i mean, 13-5 bipartisan vote. a number of amendments supported both republicans and democrats. that's the best part where we are right now.

we're about to start a thoutful intentional debate on the senate floor how to fix our nation's immigration system and republicans will put amendments on the table and democrats are, too. all of us will able to see exactly how this bill is going to come togeer. i i do thin we're going to see addional enforcing measures, additional measureto make sure people are protected, as well. but that's what want congress to do. there's no other issue right now,lou, that has this kind o bipartisan momenm like immigration. i think it's going to be a reallyreally intesting and greasummer. >> kris, this may shock you, but i'm going to agree withhali noorani and i tell you i think right now they've had the best shot they've ever had, that is those seeking a new immigration law if they have the sense and theudgmentnd the humility to actually secure the border. if they talk nsense about numbers and metrics rather than an actual border that is secured by u.s. law enforcement, border

patrol especially, you know, if theyame that, i think your side wins. if they don't, i think they prevail. what do you think? >> well, i think that's a big if, lou. the bill as written as virtually nothing th will help bodder enforceme enforcement. this bill willut the forcement we havin the status quo. it does all kinds of tngs to weaken border forcem what will they do when the amendments come up and the amendments in the committee that were serious amenents to increase border enforcement were rejected. for example, there was an amendment offered to finish the 700 miles of fence on the southern border th was promised way back in october of 20. that was rejected..o cf1 o there was an amendmt to stop the newly legalized illegal aliens from getting earned income tax credits. that andment was rejecd. if the same pattern occurs in the senate and all of these -preasonable amendments are rejected, you're going to see the vast majority of republicans vote against this bill. we'll have to see what happens.

>> and senator sessions is posing the questioi posed to youbefore. why won't someby he will us how ma illegal immigrants will be given legal status projected with this legislation or with the course of th next decade >> why won't sebody give us a number? as he put it, is it because they don't know the or thon't say? >>. >> this is why thisis such a good piece of legislation is because whatill happen for the undocumented, they'll go through a criminal background cck. >> i know the process. i'm asking for a number, ali. come on. >> after you meethe criteria, o en you get to a number. giving au estimate now is speculation. that's why this process has been set up so thateople are going through it. >> so any umber is fine? is there a limit? >> in a asonableway. at this point --at this point we have -- >> kris, go ahead. >> evenally bringing in teir latives. we could bealking about 30 million over time.

this is a hug number. e thing we als heard finally from rubio, he admitted yeah the amsty comes first. there's no triggert the beginning that says you have to enforce anything. th gegal status on day one virtually on day one as soon as is the department of homeld security submits some paper o congress. that means this is an amney first and e promise enforcement later but we have seen this administration shatt its promises and basically unilaterally disarm in terms of enforcement. i don't thinke can trust this government and we certain can't trust this bill. we can't tst this administtion i should say. >> let me ask u. >> anyone who thinks is bill is a good idea hasn't read it. the last word very qukly if you will, ali. does your side in this believe ththey can game it and get away with it this time? our side, the side that includes fah, laenforcemt business as well as the immigrant community across the political spectrum wants a

anarent process that creates a 21st century immigration system. the status quo is unsustainable. only t crooked employers are winning. we are wasting billions of dollars in tax money. >> i think you will win if you choose not to game it. i'm asking youu can you sit here and say you'reoing to be honest and straighorward and t try to game it? >> we do not want games. we want a law. >> so you will. >> we'll see what happens. >> you will not in any way try to game this system? >> lou, i feel like you're seing me up for something here. >> you what? >> i fee like you're leading me >> i not.. i'm just asking the question seeking astraightforward answer. >> we want a transparent process that results in smart legislation. >> okay. i got . >> reasonable amendments, watch his reasonable amendments are voted down one after another and you'll see wat going to happen. >> kris kobach, al noorani thank you. much more on the prospectsoff

the gang of 8 immigration bill roughout tonight's badst. stay with us. edward snowden, the nsa leaker, hero or traitor? a lot of people are making up their minds earlyy and it depens upon whom you sk. some strange political

you know, we really don't know vermuchat all about 29-yr-old edward snowd, the leaker of the national security agency's surveillance programs. but over the past few ys, we've heard him described as a hero, a traitor, a whistleblower, a public servant, a fugititive, a criminal, even some mht call h a bad boyfriend. nominally you can tell whe someone stands on an issue by th "r" or "d" following their name in washington, d.c. but that certainlyasn't been the case with snowden. and we wanted to go through it here very quickly. first the case forlabeling him %

a traitor. let's lead off first by the speaker of the house, john boehner. boehner came out today sayin flat out snowden is a traitor for showing our enemies what our capabilities are in rveillance. boehner by the way is a publican, but senator dianne feinstein, i mean, she has, well, she shar his view. she's the chair of the senate intelligence committee. she says swden cmittedn act treason. the same goes for house homeland security committee member and former chairman, republican congressman peter king who says snowden is a danger to the nation. and president obama, here he is, 2013, president obama hasn't weighed in on snowden. but his justice department is preparing criminal charges against snowden. and friday, the president defend the nsa's surveillance prram saying they me a difference in preventing terrorist attacks on this country and americans. and now the casefor labeling

snown and his actns heroic if you can imagine that has happen. and none otherhan glenn beck and michael moore. these men couldn't be more opposite in their political views. pically. but beck tweeted out that snowden has th as he put it, the earmks of aeal hero and moore, moore called him the hero of the year. i mean, i have to sit here and just kind of look. by the way, we want to say thanks again as always to glenn for leaving me my chalk board. that was very nice. we want to y thank you no matter some of his ew setors mike lee a al franken. i'm going to say that again. senators mike lee and a franke they've come together to say, well, that they're ki o behindhis thing. legal a tea party favorite, franken a prominentlefty. they haven't attached a lel to snowden but are backing legislation that would require our government to be more

ansparent in it surveillance. now, think about this. they want to force the justice department to the declassify court opinions in this instan, court opinions operating under the foreign intelligence act or fisa the fei intelligence surveillance court, well, that meure probably won't pass but it was worth draf just to see this odd pairing of senators lee ann franken. don't you think? president obama, well, here he is. lookie there. look here. the difference between senator obama in 2007 and present oba, 2003. do you think this job doesn't carry with it a little weight and burd? setor, well, then senate candidate barack obama accused th then of putting forward a "false choice" betwn national security and our civil liberties. he was very fired up about it. but i think it's a pretty safe

bet that the president obama now would not make the me argument because he isscaht as are we all in a very r real choce between national security and civil liberties. and snowden, well, snowden right now is still very much a question mark. house speer john boehner says he's confident the house will pake up immigration reform this year. house judiciary committee house judiciary committee airman bob good law an gis there is a pursuit we all share. a tter le for your family, a better opportunity for your business, a better legacy to leave the world. we have e always believed in this pursuit, striving to brg insight to every investment, and integrity to ery plan.

we are morgan stanley. and we're ready to work for you.

of immigratiin reform, the latestn the sa leaking scandal, we're joined by the house judicry committee chairman congressman bob goodlatte of virginia. good to have you with us.

let me first ask you f your evaluation. you are -- you've already moved forward fo ements stand alone bill phe act which is the agricultural guest worker progra the legal workforce act, which is e verify employer verification of ose hired, the skills act for high skilled immigration which isn't being discussed the other side of th hill, and the safe a. how confidt are yout we're going to see sensible reform emerge from the house and the senate this year? >> i feel very good about the safe act that you menti last deals with something thais t being dealt with in the sate in any significant way, and tha is interior enforcement. 35 to 40% of the people whore unlawfully present in the country entered legally. soixing the border is certainly part of our agenda in the use, bu that doesn't

cover the prlem because once you're in on a student visa, visito vsa, bsiness visa, visa waiver and youon't have the interior enforcement involving state and local government, inlving other measures that prohibit the preeident from basically ipping a stch not even enforcing aspects of our immigration loss as happens today, you're not addressing the problem. so senator cr made some good points in the remarks you just broadcast. and we are attempting to goin a very different direction in the house where we fix all of these problems as we address the overall immigration situation. your incremental approach and i should point out that you and congressman troy gowdy are leading the way on the s.a.f.e act is taking on the issues that matter the most they are the elemental, the fodation issues if you will of illegal immigration into this country anat this point, how confident are u that you're

going to have the leadership support and the support of the house? >> we think thate have gotten a very go response from o rank and file members in the step by step approach th we're tang. and i feel very good about producing good, solid legislatio that addresses these problems before we jump to the conclusions abouthat kinof legal status should be given to people who are not gally present in the united states. 're going to start that of process in tms ofmarkups. we'll have an announcementon that very soon, and we're gog to pursueit aggressively but don't feel we're bound by a timetable but by getting it right. >> one of the conundrums that surely faces you and all of those leading investigations and seekg to understand and to govern this massive organizati we call the federal government,

there ha to be an understanding that we -- t agencies we trust most in this country are the united states mitary and those who e, if you will, at the point the spear in intelligence and covert operations. and then there's the ress of the government right now. and it's a strange time. we don't trust congress. every pollhows so. we trust our troops. we trust their leaders. we don't trust the president, the polls say so. we'realking about a president who's underwater with his approval ratings now. we don't trust our leadership. 71% according to the latest fox news poll, 71% says this is the best we can do? and in the midst of this, w have these folks, whether it's the ate department, whher it is the jtice department whom we rely on for so much and you'll be talking one of the principal leaders of the justice department, the had of the fbi.

i mean we're caught in a difficult conundrum right noo, and it seemso me a treacheus time, and it's not a play on words, i assure you. a treacherous time for all of you who are in charge of governing this grea countryy. >> that's absolutely true. when you look at the benghazi scandal, you look at the ir subpoena investigation of various conservative groups, tea parties d we find far, far more array of groups that were targeted for special investigation by t irs,hen you look at the use of, i would argue, era attention for repoers who are reporting the news, a.p., the fox news reporter who is the chief washington correspondent and yet treated like a common criminal in the warrant that was sought to get his e-mails. >> w should point out he's

treated that way an fbi agent. remember theustice department and a federal judge. >> approv b the attney >> absolutely. >> the federal judge actually apologized a few weeks ago right after the attorneyeneral testified because he realize that what he had approv and sealed, he had kept sealed for an additiona1 months longer thane had agreed to, and i think he probay realized when all of these scandals broke that he had forgotten to do that. so thatctually helped us to advance our investigation considerly. it's the job of the congress and the jiciary committee to take the necessary steps to look into this newestatter and the others, ofourse, but this newest matte to find out what we need to do to increase t trt of the american people in their military, in their intelligce gathering, in the fbbecause they do have to do their jobs but they have to do them right. if the rules need to be changed and the oversight needs to be changed, we should be prepared

>> congressman, we appreciate it so much. the woun of war inspired a ucla surgeon to hp america's wounded heroes. we'll introduce you to the doctor who started operationn mee. anthe frmer marine who became patient zero after talking on television with me. the most free research reports, customizable charts, powerful screening tools, and guaranteed 1-second trades. and at the center of iall is aurprisingly low price -- just $7.95. in fact, fidelity gives you lower trade commisons than schwab, td ameritrade, and etrade. i'm monica santio of fidelity investments, and low fees and commissions are another reason serious investors now get 0 free trades when you open an account. from the united states poal service a small design firm n ship like a bigusiness. just go online to pay, print and have your packages picked up for free. we'll do the rest. ♪

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lou: turning noto our wounded warriors an aaazing program that provides reconstructive surgery to severely injured service members inired in part by a conversation between marine corporal and i talking on the air some seven years ago. it's calledperation mend. and the program has treated more than 80 of our wound warriors sinc2007. joining us now is marine corporal aon mankin, iraq war veteran, wounded in 200505, the first operation mend patient. it is eat to see you, aaron.

good thave you with us on the broadcast. >> good evening, mr. dobbs. thanks for having me back the sh. >> and ronald katz, t founder of operation mend, a member the ucla medical center board. this is great toaveou with us, ronald. i've got to say that the when we heard that you had gotten th idea for this watching aaron and me talking, you know, i just sat here and sort of scratched my head and thought what a -- he was such areat spokesman f the brooke army medical center in san aon where we met for all of our wounded veterans. i couldn't be more delighted thatou found so inspiring. >> well, really di he was exceptional and seeing him on your program. >> what is the program, operation mend, aaron, meant to you? you have traveled so far. i said you were wound in an

attack. we can -- as i sit here loong at you across the way, you know, you look amazing. you know you're back to that rugged marine look that you represented roughout your life. it's been a hell of a journey though, hasn't it? >> you know, half of what we learn is from the journey gettinggfrom here to there. that was just one day in my life in iraq. severely wounded as i was. coming from that point now having endur nearly 60 surgeries in the past eight years and having a program like operation mend be there me as a resource just having s serd my coury and come home and have my country want to serve me such a unique way to provide such specialized care is to give me back a sense of my humanity, to give me normal back to who

i was. it's invaluable. i can' thk ron or ucla medical systems or brooke army medical center, everyone who is touched my life along thway, i can't thank them enough, including you, sir. >> i did nothing. you know, i had the honor of reporting your story and getng to know you and it's a treasured honor, i assure you. ronald, let me ask you this. you've been seeing money, various fundin government the work, i've got to believe that people when they heard me say 80 ptits they thought, well, that isn't very many people but until they meet the folks who need the help and the -- you know, that's a huge number tell us at we can do to help you. >> well, as yourecognize,we deal with very severely injured patients, and it's not a single

surgery that takes placeebut basically in aaron's case, it's a large number of surgeries. and you have to really pay attention to these folks. the services that we provide are completely free. everyone that pticipates gets to come to ucla, and we bring their family too beuse we think the famy component is critical. and toe able to ceor people like aaron and the families and ve them this experience along with all of the people in los angeles that have kind of gravitated to these young men and women, it's a very exciting community experience ally. >> well, we want to put up on the scen where our viewers can help out if they are so -- if they so want. i hope that you do. operation mend.ucla.edu. aaron, partner, it's great to see you. i'm delighted that you're doing

so well, a i know those kids of yours, your daughters mean the world to you. i wish you all the very besand look fward to seeing you soon. >> thank you. >> aaron, tha you very much. ronald, thank you for all you've done. we wilhelp. you continueour go work. >> thank you. >> up next,n his new sbook american gun," we'll be talking with william doyle and abo, well, a fascinating study with chris kye, the allen marine sn. william doyle next. the bs used double miles from their capital one venture card to fly home for the big family reunion.

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at the time of chris kyle's tragic death ifebruary of this year, he was finishing up a book that defined his psion with

guns. american sniper, a runaway best seller. "american gun" tells the tory ofow ten unique american firearms shaped the history of is country. kyle reveals how firearms innovation, creativity and instal genius pushed our history d power. here on behalf of chris kyle and co-author of "american gun," is william doyle. >> gat to be here, lou, on behalff chris kyle. % >> i alws le authors. youuys never trust me to have a copy of the book. it's a terrific book. we recommend it toyou. it is fascinating me that you took this idea, ten gu or weapon are if you prefer, that are remarkable. you're talking about the long rifle, the repeater, the spencer repeater, the colt .45, the peaccmaker, the stuff that we grew up on as kids. the winchester rif, the 73,

the 94, any number of these ver action rifles thatre just terfic parts of american weern historyand history. tell usbout the relationship between guns and america, if you will, broadly. >> chris kyle thought that there was an amazing sees of stories to btold about how guns have shaped american stor and th have. whether -- n matter where you are in the political spectrum d this is a boo not about politics but aut great erican history. krauttthought, it'smportant for us to kno for example, abraham lincoln was a n buff. and a technolo gek. abraham lincoln had a shooting range of his own behind the white house. andhe would go back there and fire off rounds at targets to test new gun technologies. in fact, one day he wascrouched down shooting, and the police camey because there was a rul against that in washington at the time. and they started hollering and cursing at him and ran over to grab the gun from him, and abe

lincoln, the witne describ, unilimself higher, higher, and higher. and presented himself and then they realized the police realized, my go that' old abe himself. and they ranaway. and lincolsaid whoa, they might have stuck around to see the shooting. so presidentl gun buffs are intereeting or the involvement of presidents and gu. teddy roosevelt helped create th springfield 1903 rifle that our troops are still using versioof around the world day. and john kennedy was intimately involved in designing the m-16 which use today. it's a fascinating connectio isn't it. >>. >> absoluty. the m-16 which supplanted the m-14 and e old m-1 garand rifle, the0 aught 6, su a magnificent part of our story. many gun buffs stillonsider t be one of the finest wpons ever designed. >> the m-1 saved the world because my father and so many members of the greatest generation had that gun by their

side in combat zones in world war ii. that gun was better than the japanese version, and it was better than the german standard shoulder rifle. now that counts for history and it counts for saving american% lives. that's the interesting interplay betweetechnology and move offing our history forward and back, with putting food on t table, expanding the country. you know, we know about the crimes quite well, but i think wh we've forgotten is the connection that guns have to our military history and t our freedom in many ways. >> absolutely. when we talk about guns that you know that won the west, we're taing about the peemaker, we'rtalking about the spencer, we're talking about the winchester repeating arms. it is a terrific idea, brilliantly executed. you got another big winner on your hands, and i' sure that chris kyle would be thrilled with the result. >> thanks a lot. >> thank you very muc good to have youwith us. williadoyle, the book is, as i

said "american gun." it's on sale. now online or at bookstores everywhere, go to lou dobbs.com for links, as well. 'll see you here tomorrow. thanks for bng with us. thanks for bng with us. good nightm new york. at a dry cleaner, thanks for bng with us. good nightm new york. we replaced pele with a machine. what? customers didn't like it. so why do banks do hello? if your bank doesn't let you tayou need an ally.on 24/7, hello? allyank.

thht is coming tomorrow. goodbyy. ♪ >> still coming acrosby the hundreds and thousands. john: iilegal immigrati is down, but people still sneak and plexuses a pretty good-sized told. i am dissing this. it does not matter how high offenses. john: we need to seal our borders. >>od our borders, protecting the homeland. >> illegals steal america jobs.. john: if immigrants are such up problem what icanada's immigrion by billboards in america. >> wwill take it. >> the fight of themerican dream. that isur show tonight. ♪