should let most of them in. that is our show. thank you for watching. ♪ e'e'e'e'e'e'e'e'e'e'e'e'e'e'e'. they say they're snooping to protect us. but as the lawsuits pile up, will this nsa mess end up hurting one of the strongest parts of our struggling economy? hi, eryone, i'm brenda butner. the bulls and bears this week. gary b. ith, toeben smith, jonas, john layfield along with susan ox. welcome to everybody. okay, gary b., you say all this snooping could shock the one part of the economy that's actually growing? how so? >> absolutely, brenda. look, i'm going to call this the nsa tax, if you will. you know, we have the e-commerce segment o our gdp is about $269

billion. it's growing the faest of any retail segment that we have out there. in fact, it's probably,if you look back over the last few year really supplied the bulk of the job and growth and innovation in the retail sector. if people now are afraid to go online, and they ar i mean, they've been aaid in the past. you know, credit cards and stuff like that. this is only going to exacerbate it. if that industry starts to shrink,oh, boy, the economy is really going to suffer. >> jonas, you say consumers are going to get used to it afte a little while. >> i don't think it's going to change shopping behavior. the other day, you can save 3% on someth and gohrough an unsecured internet coection versus going t a store, you're going to take that deal. that said, there are other parts of the internethich could be burdened by overreach of the government looking out for o security. you know, the whole e-mail, if you stop sending e-mails or do less because you think you're being watched and you start making phone calls, using faxes -- a lot of companies i have to unfortunately faxes in many cases because of

security issues with e-mai and sending applications. it slows down productivity. there's errors, it's blurry. it creates needless use of labor. so you can slow down the effiiency that we get from the internet by leadg to a state of paranoia where you think everything is insecure because some nsa agent is redirecting traffic into their supercomputer somewhere. >> it's not really american consers you're woied about. you think it may be globally ere's going to be this paranoia. >> well, as gary says, absolutely, brenda. the big issue here is that 90% of all the clients, all the customers of facebook or aoor any of these sites, google, are outside the united states. you know, particularly in europe, they have a whole different idea about what personal privacy is. and their idea is a lot more privacy than our united states. if you look at t business growth of those companies, and remember, every dollar that they crte over i you know, let's say germany creates $2 or $3 of income over re beuse of

management, because of,ou know, data centers, et ceter so ihink the biggest issue here is that we've totally disregarded the fact that the internet businesses which to ary's point are one of the faste growing and hi-paying jobs in the country are really a threat outside the united states, much more than inside the united stes. >> well, susan, you actually think this could be a benefit to the economy. >> i do. you know, i think we have lost a lot of the priva around purchasing data already. and people are comfortable with that. you know, you buy something on the internet. jonas buys a dog toy the internet, and then all of a sudden he's saying ads for kibbles pop up. thas because they're coming through your purchasing data and they're suggesting ads to you. wee alread gotten comfortable with some level of losing that privacy there. when you think about encryption, i think there could be a really strong boom in the crytion rvices. there are a lot of companies already starting to do this. this is wt american inguity looks ke. we see a probm, we find a way

to fix it. >> hn, do yothink this will impact theconomy for the od or bad? >> i don't think it's going to be negligible either way. facebook had a lot of problem that was sharing users' data with advertisers so they could target certain users. that really hurt them for a time bei. they got over that. look, cloud-based computing in thited states, you're going to have a fallback. you're already having some of that from corporations overseas and governments overseas. but facebook wasn't going to get into china anyway. and the consumer here -- look, this is like saying the phone companies are going to die because there was wiretapping in watergate. it didn't happen then. and people now realize, look, our governmt's been snooping since they first had horses and tin with a string tied between it. this is nin new. i think people reize that. >> we're not talkin about your college education, john. come on. >> leave that out of thi >> i want to know how they did that snooping when thereas two

cans on either end. was there a third can we didn't see in the middle of that le? but in a event, you know, jonas made a good point about the productivity. but you know, what he didn't mention is thathopping ov the intnet -- i want to come back to this e-comrce point -- is a way of impving our productivity. 1 of the people out there said you know what? i'm sick of the spying stuff. i dotrust the internet any longer. i'm no going to buy something on ebay or on amazon. i'm going to have to get in my car and drive to the mall. oh, my gosh. how many peopl aravoiding the hours you spend doing that, avoid spending the gasoline? significant impact.ve a >> but gary, what is somebody doing online when they're buying something that has anything to do with spying or anything to do with terrorism? if you're afraid of that, i'd be much more afraid of going to a restaurant with my credit card and having the wait or waitress swipe my cret card. it's only happened about ten times >> agree wih, toby, but do

you think the common man or woman is able to make that distinction? >> yes, i do, as a matter of fact. >> come on. americans are smarter than that. >> i'll be honest with you. i don't. i tnk that they're looking at all the data, all the transactions out there. >> okay. jonas. >> i think you're confusing the other risk of, like, credit card security when you're shopping with wholesale storage of our data by the government. now, for example, right now another thing going on is this cloud computing which means you're trying to put all these files and documents d transactions onto the internet. that's a huge wave goin on in busiss. and it could get slowed down. if you think, well, if i put everybody's files nline and then the government has access to it whenever they want, they ally can't do that on your own hard drive without wrants as easily. whether that's true or not, it could lead to that kind of behavior where you slow down the movement of paperwork. talking about the health industry, moving documents online, getting health records online out of paper files. you uld get in the way where consumers wouldn't want that necessarily because they perceive the govement is creating a honey pot of data

that's open to hackers or whatever by taking it all essentially. >> t horse has left the barn there. corporations already have the honey pot data. they' already collecting all of this information on us anyway. i don't think consumers will really see an impact. >> to your point, that'sike co doing local police work and there's going to be a boom in burglar detector business. that's probably not a good way to run the country either. >> i'm trying to make lemonade out of lemons here. >> remember also they're getting the data right out of the pipe. it doesn't matter whether you storore it on your hard drive o anybody else's. they're getting it right out of the intern. so jonas, i'm sorry. it's been happening. the internet has not slowed down here. over in europe -- >> wait, wait. just to be clear, if i store files on my hard drive on a computer in my office, for example, that's different tan on the cloud because now you're talking about sending it somewhere where it can be interjected by the consumer's p.r.i.s.m. >> i understand. your phone call and your e-mail is the only thing the government

cares about. they don't care about that weird stuff on your hard drive. >> we'll see where this goes. >> all right, john. >> look, there's a reason that tobyoses his credit cd in restaurant. he drinks a lot of wine and flat leavest on the table. >> that's another problem, though. how ds that build on your point sf >> we don't have to get personal here. okay. >> they spy on their people. appareny we spy on ours, too. that's not going to affect whether we buy e-books or not, not in my opinion. >> thanks, guys. ecret meetings over nsa's secret snooping. neil's gang knocking on closed doors and dending answers. th that's at the bottom of the hour. first, unions blitzing to airwas and storming d.c. in a ajor push for immigration reform. >> every da that we wait is a day wasted and a day that we've lost, a day that the economy won't grow. >> growing the economy or a ploy

to grow unionmembership? we debate it. you decide. gon to foxnews.com.

you're watching the most porful name in news. fox news channel. we need immiatio reform now to help the economy. unions launching an ad blitz calling forit. and labor bosses at the white house danding it. >> it will be good for not only newcomers or immigrants, but it will be good for every worker here. it will be good for business.

it will be good for the economy. and that's why all of us have come together to try t push and get this thing done this year because every day that we wait a dayasted and a day that we've lost, a day that the economy won't grow. >> but tom, you say the economy has nothing to do with this. >> that clip was an absolute crock. that was one of the most disingenuous things i have ever heardin my life. unions are dying. and at's the reason for this. they were at 40% of the public work force about 30 years ago. they're now at 6.6%. there's 7.3 million people according to bls in 2012, end of to 1 2012n unions. you're t talking about people comingrom countries where unions are prevalent. th is 100% political. there's no other way to spin this. this is a matter of survival for these unions. >>usan, you agree with that? is that about growing the economy or growing the union

base in >> this is absolutely about growing the onomy. if you look at who else was there at that press conference and at that white house event, it was the head of the u.s. chamber of commerce, tom donahue. if you look at who's been supporting immigration reform, it's all the high-tech companies. busesses are crying out for this reform. they want it because they roh it's going to help them and the economy. >> ere is a big difference in reform for the rig reasons and what the unions are doing. immigration reform should be done. a lot of political leaders do it. to associate them with unions i think is wrong. >> how can you say your organization whose sole purpose is to prect the rights of workers and not immigration reform? >> jimmy hoffa. how about that? >> ok, toby. we have some video of unions protesting at may day. they've beenoing this for a while. this is a big deal for them. >> well, absolutely. and with all due respec to my dear susan, the high-tech industry is talking about hh-tech job qualified immigration where poples have

high levels of skil, and we need them desperately for our ecnomy. that'not what the union's talking about. thunion has a product to sell. and that produc is the promise, the illusion that they're going to help woinclass people get higher ges and more jobs. so they now have a whole new group to sell that product to. unfortunately, as mr. layfield alludes to, the product doesn't work. you know, yeah, they're looking at a chanceo have, you know, new opportunity, new market. but the fact of the matter is, it's not going to work any better for them than the 2 millioneople who dropped out of unions in the last 30 years. >> jonas, what do you think of that? >> the economylso need unskilled tech workers that are imgrants. if you saw what happened if they could magically remove all immigrants who were here i wil leely, you would see how important they are to the econy, too. unions are dying, and they need to grow. mo importantly, they need to grow it with people in jobs that are not outsourceabto other states like mechanics who -- and

people that can move to another state where there's no uons. that's why they're so going after fast food worker because fast food jobs and farm pickers, they can't move the avocados to alaska or some cheaper place. it has toe where it is. it's the perfect growth area for unions. they canove wages back above minimum wage and get thhem in te union. the boss can't locate into a no-union area, be it china or the south. ithas a huge growth potential for union membership. >> gary b.? >> well, i think, john, basically summed it up when he said the speech is a crock. how we know it's a crock? because just a short while ago, unions were against this immigration law. th didn't want the immigrants coming in and taking the jobs until, as a few people have poted out, they said, huh. wait asecon weave 11 million undocumented immigrants that would be subject to u.s. labor laws including t

right to unionize. and that's even before they seek permanent citizenship. so trumka is saying, wait a second. this is reallyctually good for us because it inflateour dying role. that's why we know it's a crock. >> okay, susan. >> look, you know, as i said before, this is an organization who is supposed to be on the side of workers. we have a 11 million undocumented workers in this country. because, youknow, historically, there have been two sides in the labor movement, and there have beensome who have been against it, and there have been some for it. the afl before they merged with the cio had been pro-immigration for a long time. >> that's g to be the last word. when a car, a bike, an ipad, even a concert all for just showing up at school? it's happening. and guess @í0x;ñt

how much for a certificate? schools are now handing t cars for perfect tendance. the los angeles unified school district which happens to get money based on attendance is rewarding kids with everything from ipads to chevy sonics just for showing up and toby, you think it's a smart idea? >> yes, it's a smart idea. y the way, all schools get paid on attendance, bu that's not the issue. the issue is the kids with the best attendance, they have the best graduation rate. if it works, wehould do it. a btter idea, in many regions,

they say thi if your child does not have a veryood attendance record, 9 or higher, then we're going to take your welfare away. it's aazing how well kids attend school when mom and dad's welfare check is on the hook. i say let's do it all. >> gary b., they'reeing rewarded fo butts in the classroom, not for performance. >> exactly, brenda. look, toby's riht. there is a reward, you know, system here going on. and i suppose it does work. here's he problem with it. it's coming out of the taxpayers' pocket. i'd rather see a private system where the schools have to fail or succeed on their own. why not a voher system? do you think the kids attending dll friends get paid b the stateor kids' attendance? no. they have a -- exactly. they have a great attendance record, though, because the parents kick their butto go there because they have to pay

to go there. and they give the kids a quality education. if the los angeles school district doesn't give quality education, they shouldn't have to pay for that to get the kids to show up. >> gary b., this is actually coming fr private money. this is not taxpayer money. >> is is from private money, s. never mind. >> it might at some point. john, take this on. >> look, i help run a kids program here in bermuda. we have problems with a huge dropout rat i would love to have an iphone or ipad to reward the ung m or women based upo their performance. i gree on attendance, buttist also got toe measured to graduation race and so you're not getting in trouble, you're passing. 's got to be some kd of te of metric. not just attendance. what happened in los angeles, they get about $32 per kid per day. and they were losing funding because of it. that's a b reason behind this. >> that money. and where's that mey coming from, though?

the $32 a day? that's not private money. that comes fr the taxpayer. >> okay. susan. >> we should be taking th extra money and improving the actl experience of education. we're losingprogrart programs, c programs. absolutely. there's so much deteriorating in our public school system. we should be putting more money into improving education, not giving them ipads. >> more money? sun -- >> first of all, i went to one of those priva schools with taxpayer money and i had the worst attendance record at the school. because the reason why this is a good idea is because in what i ca the gameificati of school, which is incentivize, we're already spendinghe money on the school. that's a sunk cost at this point for taxpayers. as woody allen said, 80% is just showing up. then you've got to use other gamelike tricks. >> all right. gary b., you've got the last word. >> we're fixing something that's broken.

public edation has not moved the needle one ch in the last 50 years. let's move on to a neww model. how about a voucher system and private education? >> okay. that's got to be the last word. thanks, guys. and thanks tosan for joining us. he says he's a hero for revealing nsaoopin he may have just revealed the one stock you may need to own now.

predictions.

gary b., you're up >> brenda, booz aen has been getting bashed lately becse of all this snooping stuff. i like the stock. i think it's going to be up 20% by the end of the year. >> jonas? >>too early in th scandal. >> we have to wait a while. john, your prediction. >> aol is being forced to get in the buyout game by yahoo! and ggle. i think the stock's up 30% in a year. >> gary? >> seriously, john, aol? come on. >> okay. toby. what do you like? >>orget about aol. we've got newgame consoles. that means ge stop will sell a bunch more games. i think it's up 30% by the end of e year. >> toby knows all about at. john, what do you think? >> tobyhould be a video game character. until he is, i'm a br. >> i think he is out there. you're sti o aol. come on. >> jonas, your prediction. >> detrt is now so broke, they're missing debt payments.

lend your money to states that have theax pay. california muni bonds. >> toby. >> i'm a total bear. if you read meredith whitney's great book, you wouldn't put a penny into california muni bonds. cavuto is next. >> well, they mighbe watching you. is it ti to start watchi them? hi, eone. glad to have you. i'm neil cavuto. and watch out because apparently washington does not want you finding out much at all abo this nsa snooping. senators closing the door on another secure briefing this week. let me say that is what's pretty weak. doesn'tthe public deserve better? who's going to save them? not this man of steel who might be smashing box office rords is weekend. yeah, this man of steel wants to smash down those doors of taxpayers erywhere. why are they lghing?