good evening, everybody. thk you for being with us. confessed nsa leak ser edward snowden after a brief vanishing act is once ainpeaking and complicating tlobal image of the man who remains in hong kong, he says, and today he raised the stakes in his campaign against u.gencies and their surveillance snowden telling the south china morning post that the united states is engaged in mo than 60,000 hacking operions rldwide. snowden also said that china is one therimary taets an of u.s. intelligence, hacking the mainframes of chinese universities, businesses, and public officls.

snowden said "i am neither trair nor hero. i'm an amecan." that was before he said he would be putting his fate in the hands of the courts and t people of hong kong instead of americans. and today's staments may expln who snowd is actually working for. and whyhis spectacle overelmed president obama's two-day summit with chinese president xi jinping and what insight do h words suggest as why the white house stl refuses to characterize the status of the man who many in connress are now calling a traitor. has the white house not noticed that general kth alexander e head of the nsa testified on capitol ll as toto what edward snowden has done and the damage at he has caused. has the administration not noticed its own department of justice is drawing up charges against the leaker who has

publicly confessed his acts? some might as who is leading this country and in what direction. the new fox poll just released an hour ago,n asked about the current state of leadership in whington, americans said by a margin of 71 is this be we can do? the same fox poll shows the president's job performance now underwater. only 44% of those surveyed approve of h performance. 50% disapprove. my first guest tonight resigned from the nsa after a career spanning more thnen three dedes. protesting gowing domestic surveillance. bening. us now is william you left the nsa in protest rely over the decision by the governnt to the conduct surveillance seeki out terrorts after september 11t,

2001. you have seen, well, the history nce. what are your thoughts now about these allegations andhe extent, the sweep, if you will, of the surveillance that is taking place by the u.s. govern? >> well, okay. from where i sit and what i've seen and what i've read s far and what i know, they're rely attackintwo communication system like theublic switch telephon network that includes land lines, mobile phones, satellite phones. that's a worldwide stem and so they're looking at t internet and the world wide web which again is a worldwide system that is ipd addresses, 4 and 6. so tho are ike phone numbers, you will. orou c draw the analogy. and what they're doi is pulling in all the metadata to recotruct the communities of interest or, if you will, the social networks of ery individual in the world and

paicular, one of the reasons couldn't stay therfor sure w was the fact that theyere doing i to every u.s. citizen. i mean, my knowledge was tha theyere taking in about 320 milln records oo long distce calls of u.s.itizens to other s. citizens every day. that stard in october of 2001. and that's why i could not b a pa of that. >> and the patriot act, whic llowed the authorization for e govement to begin much of that surveillance, did that in any way allay your concerns? >> no, because again, you see the issue, lou, is that what they can do, the capability wth that metada i to build the entire communities like for example the tea paty. would you liking to reconsuct the tea party o the occupy groups and who is cenal to the tea party and peripheral. and you can have the data about

them, cluding getting their names and if they apply for tax exempt status and you can checkk that list and s if they're on it and then target them if you wa to. that'she proem with it. that's the problem with the government having so much knowledge about the citizens of the contry. >> the knowledge about the citizens of the country versus e records of their mmunications, be whether we go to operation prism and include e-mails, video, along with the phhne calls and thos voice communications, it is what you do with them. the storage in and of itself obviously deeply troubles yo others say en it is in metadata form, if you will, you don't drill down unless you have probable cause and reason and great specificity. i hear yo saying that that's an illusion. >> there are two ways to prove

intelligence aboutny targetin the world. one is to read what there saying and pay attention to it. that givesou intelligence. the other is to buildhe metadata and seeow they intect with one another. when you do th and time line that over a piod of time, you can see who's doing what with whom annd infer from just the interactions some of the activities that they're intending to do. for example, if you had a drug smgler in colombia that wanted to smuggle drugs intohe united states, he would ha to communice with someone in the united states in some for to arrange the sell and buy relationship. th you'd have to arrange with somebody to tansport it. then he'd have toransfer the money. and transfer the drugs. so those things have to happen. th show up as interactions in the metadata and once you see them, you can inferhat that's in fact what they're doing. so there's aot of things you can do. you can ok and see if you'r having medical problems. you can see the mecal dtors that you'r visiting and making

appointments with. so you know, metadata is really pret dangerous. >> pretty dangerous. it is also ubiquitous,ii is accessle. >> yes. >> and not only by certainly government, which we're talng about that balanceetween surveillance and civil rits. and ctainly the importance of our law, but wre also talking about corporations whether they be internet companies, internet providers, whether they be large vast technology and telecommunicatns company, all of the sharing the very information that you've described iaddition to. >> yes. >> -- t ageyof the government that we rely upon top provide that srveillance and best psible knowdge and understanding of what is happening, at least in the world of tnternet as you said in switch communications, as well. it becomes a very difficult, if you will,ramable andthicket

to navigate. >> there's another real danger. you have to be -- talks about ust. you haveo trusthe government. t you also have to trust all the people in the government cause they can get on a terminal to go into the systems and look at yata base a anyone they want to. then you have trust all the contractors maintaining the database and the query routines and insuring that thwhole system works. you have to trust all them not to go into that dabase to look for things from other mpanies or something, our competitors or tolook, if you wanted to see if yo we is cheating on you, u could go and do that. it's in thatdatabase. yocould see relationships your wife may have and you could infer a relationship there. so you know, there's so many pitfal and dangers at assembling all this information about inviduals. >> inferring relationships also seeking out with great specificity connections from which to draw. >> ye.

>> -- telligent analysis and concsions which is what we want the nsa to do, which is what we want our intelligence agencies to do. and i'm left then withhe ust, as you talk about famoly, ronald reagan trust but verify, and my god, i think e nsa to verify, verify, verify irrespective of who the employee might be or the posiiion he she might hold. but at the other end of this, in government who do we trust? do we trus the president, the most recent ratings suggest not. do we trust congress? hardly. their ratings are so low, we can't right now in the midst of andal really say that the state department, the ternal revenue service, the jtice department merit our trust. can we? >>o. no, you can't. and there's another myth that they're really circulating

ou washington and they're claiming that it's the truth. and that is that you havto collect all this data to get the terrorists. that's absolutelfalse. >> how so? >> there are simply two principles they have to use in collection of data and analysis to do that. one is, i call it the two-degree principle. if you have a terrorist call somebody in the unit states th's the first degre the second degree is who that person in thunited states then calls. that fms a zone of suspicion, and you take that collectively alg with a monitoring e jihadi advocating stes and thoswho advocate violence against the west and see who's accessing those. that aggrete then isour zone of spicion. we would have gotten th ft. hood shooter and the boston bombers. they were a part of that. in fac i do not know of anyone that won't have fallen in that catego. that was the principle i was using. ppus -- >> you bring up the boston

bombing. that seems to me to be clearly a failure of human intelligence. that is, clear communication between the cia and the russian encies, clear communication between the russian agencies and the fbi. i presume then communication between the cia and fbi, perps% even local. we're just spulating. but that's human intelligen that was an abject failure, don't you thi? >> well, i also called it the intelligence failu was also the sicken part of it. because all of those connections shed up in the ca records and even. >> corroborating intelligce. >> the x fbi agent, ti clemente when he was interviewed onn abt a week and a half ago, he said no digitalommunications reafe and that they will had a way of getting back to the communications between one of the bombers and his wife. >> you knoww is we have --

an it's been fascinating listening to you take us through th. and try as bestwe can to comprend part at least of wat you're talking about in the architecture of the operations of the agency and intelligence, signal intelligence. let mesk you this. do youot -- and you were talking about these nodes that are created by a series of connections whether they be communication between a jihad dist and someone in this country, whether they be subsequent communication what do you make of an eve in which the president of the united states complaining might lit abt cyber attacks ends up in t cap, the southern calirniaesert with president xi jinping for a two-day summit, cyberttacks again the united states to be a larg agenda item, tough talk from the president, his administration, and suddenly that two-day summit

is vaporized by someone by the name of edward snowden. and his revelions and his rthcomin details. in tt -- tell me if you find a node, a coincidencer just random circumstance in intelligence terms. >> well, it could be simply random. i ouldn't be able to say. but the entire governme could have avoided all of this if they'd have been a little more honest with everything that they're doing with the public and if ty would have done a proper job, a legal job, a constitutionally acceptable job. >> no question. i was asking really for the intelligence conclusn given your almost 40 years in the nsa. because i find myself you know as t host of this broadst just scratching my head at the -- and marveling at the coincidence. >> well, there is,n fact, a probability of association.

and the question would be, did snowden knowbt the vit from the chinese prier a if he did, then -- and he could have connected it with tat so yeah >> well, and lots of possilies remain for . and will until we actually know. william binny, we thank you for knowledge. i asre y the fault lies with me, not you. we appreciate it so much. >> tank you. >> up next, the senate pass the fit vote on the gang of 8's immigration reform legislatn. but will wk border security requiremts doom the legislation? legislation? immigration expt

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the national immigration forum, is kobach, the co-author of numerous anti-imgration laws, the secretary of state of kansas and both menave been eegaged in the battles over lo these many years. gelen, good to have you both wi us. ali, let me turn to you firs we hea the president imploring passage and at the same time there n amendment on border security, even marco rubio says it won't happen without -- if thet continues to game the issue. >> well, i mean, up to this int, lou, we've had an open transparent process. you look back at the judiciary committee process. i mean, 13-5 bipartisan vote. a number of amendments suprted by both republicans a democrats. that's the best parthere we are right now.

we're about to start a thoughtful intentional debate on the senate floor how to fix our nation's iigration syste and republicans will put amendments onhe table and democrats are, too. all of us will be able to see exactly how this bill is going to come together. i do think we're going to see additional enrcing measures, additional measures to make sure people are protected, as well. but that's what we want congress to do. there's no other issue right now, lou,hat has this kind of partisan momenm like immigration. i think it's going to be a real, really interesting and great summer. >> kriris, this may shock you, t i'going to agree withhali noorani and i tell you i think ght now they've had the best shot they've ever had, th is the seg a new immigration law if they have the sense and the judgment and the humility to actually secure the border. if they talk nonsense about numbers and meics rather than anactu border that is secured by u.s. law enforcement, border

paol pecially, you know, if they game tht, i think your side wins. if they don't, i think they prevail. what do you thk? >> well, i think that's a big if, lo the bill as written as virtually nothing that will he bder enforceme enforcement. this bill wi gut the enforcement we have in the status quo. it does all kinds of things to weaken border enforcement. whatill they do when the amendments come up andhe amendments in the committee tt were serious amendments to increase border enforcement were rejected. for example, thereas an amdment ofred to finish the 700 miles of fence on the southe border that was promised way back october of 2006. that was rejected..o cf1 o there was an amdment to stop e wly legalized illegal aliens from getti earned income tax credits that amendment was rejected. if the same pattern occurs in the senate and all of these -preasonable amendments ar rejected, you're going to see the vast majority of rublicans vote against this bill. we'l have to see what happens.

>> a senator sessions is posing the question posed to you befe. why won't somebody he will us how many illegal immigrants will be given gal atus projected with this legislation or with the course of the next decade? >> w won't somebody give us a number? as he put t, is it because they don't know the or they won't say? . >> ts is why this isis such good piece of legislations because what will happen for the undocumented, they'll go throu a criminal background check. >> i know the process. i'm asking for a number, ali. come on. >> after you meet the criteria,o then youet to a number. giving au estimate now is speculation. that's why this process has been set up so that people are going through it. >> so any umber is fine? is there a limit? >> in a reasonable way. at this point -- at this pint we hav -- >> is, go ead. >> evallyringing in their relatives. we could be talking about 30 million over time.

this is a huge number. one thing we also heard finally from rubio, he admitted yeah the amsty comes first. there's no trigger at the beginning thatayyou have to enforce anything. they get legal status on day one virtually on day one as soon as is the dartment of homeland security submits some paper o congress. that means this is an amnesty first and the promise of enforcement later. but we have seen tis administration shatt its promises and basically unilaterally disarm in terms of enforcement. i don't thk we can trust this governmentnd we certainly can't trus thi bill. we c't trust this administration i should say. >> let me ask you. >> anyone who thinks this bill is good idea hasn't readit. >> the last word very quickly if u will, ali. does your side in this belie they can game it andet away with ithis time? >> our side, the side th includes fah, law enforcement business as well as the imgrant community across the political spectrum wants a

transparent process thatreates a 21st centu immigrion system. the status quo is sustainable. only the crooked employers are winning. we are was billions of dollars in tax money. >> i think you ll w if you chooseot to game it. i'm asking youu can you sit here and say you're going to be honest and strghtforward and not try to game it? >> we do not wnt gas. we wana law. >> so yo will. >> we'll see what happens. >> you will not in any way try to game this system? >> lou, i feel like you're settinme up for something here. >> you what? >> i fee like you're leading me >> i'm not. i'm just asking the question seeking straightfoard answer. >> we want a transparent process thatesults in smart legislation. >> oka i got it. transparent and smart. >> reasonable amendments, watch his reasonab amendment are voted down one after another and you'll see what's going to happ. >> ks bach, ali noorani thk you. much more on the prospectsoff

the gang of 8 immigration bill throughout tonight's broadcast. stay with us. edwa snowden, the nsa leaker, hero or traitor? a lot of people are making up their minds early andt depends on whom you ask. on whom you ask. some strange political the pursuit of a tter tomrow is something we all . but who can help you findour own path? who can build you a plan, not just a pie chart who can help keep your investments on cours whev lies ahead? thatand we're readyorgan stanley to work for you.r.

you know, we real don't know very muchat all about 29-year-old edward snowden, the aker of the national security agency surveillance ograms. but over the past few days, we've heard him described as a hero, a traitor, a whistleblower, a public rvant, a fugiti, a criminal, even by some might call him a bad yfriend. nominally you can tell where someone standsn an issue by the "r" or "d" following their name in washington, d.c. but that certainly hasn't been the case with snowden. and we wanted to go through it here very quickly. first the case for labeling him%

a traitor. let's lead off first by the speaker of the house, jn boehner. boehner came out today saying flat out snowden is a traitor for showing our enemi what our capabilities are in surveillance. bor by the way is a republican, but senatorianne feinstein, i mean, she has, well, she sares his view. she's the cir of the sete intelligence commite. she says snowden committed an act of treason. the me goes for house homeland security committee member and former chairman, repubca congressn peter king whoays snowden is aanger to the nation. and president obama,ere he is, 2013, president obama hasn't weighed in on snowden. but his justice department is preparing criminal charges against snowden. and friday, the president defended the nsa's surveillce program sayinghey make a difference in preventing terrorist attacks on this country and americans. and now the case for labeling

snowden and s actions heroic if you can imagine that has happened. and none other than glenn beck and micel moore. these men couldn't beore opposi in their political views. typilly. but beck tweed out that snowden has the, as he put it, the earmarks of a real hero and moore, moore called him the hero of the year. i mean, i havto sit here and just kind of look. by t way, we want to say thanks again as always to gnn for leaving me my calk ard. that was very nice. we want to say thank you no matter some of his views. senators mike lee and al franken. i'm going to say thatagain. senators me lee and al frken. they've come together to say, well, that they're kind of behind this thing. gal a tea pty favorite, franken a prominent lefty. th haven't attached a label to snowden but are backing legislation th would require our government to be more

transparent in its surveillance. now, think about this. they want to force the justice department to the classify court opinion in this instance, court opions operating under the foreign inteigence act or fisa the foreign intelligence surveillance court, well, that measure probably won't passbut it was worth drafting just to see this odd pairing of senators lee ann franken. don't you think? president obama, well, here he is. lookie there. look there. the fference between senator obama in 2007 andresident obama, 2003. do you tnk this jobob doesn't carry with it a little ight and burd? senator, well, then senate candidate barack obama accused the bush administration bac en of putting forward a "false choice" between national security a ourivil liberties. he was very fired up about it. but i think it's a pretty saf

t that the presint obama now would not make the same argument becaushe isscaughtas are we all in a very rea choice between national security and civil liberties and snowden, well, snowden right now is still very much question mark. house speaker john boehner says he's confident the house will pake up immigration reform this year. house judiciary committee chairman bob good law an gis alec, for this missn i upgraded your smart phone. ♪ right. but the most important feature of all is... the capital one purchase eraser. i can n redeem the double mils i earned with my venture card to erase recent travel purchases. d with a few clicks, this mission never happened. uh, what's this button do? [ electricity zaps ] ♪

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of immigratiin rerm, the test on the nsa leaking scandal, we're joined by the hous judiciary committee chairman congrsman bob goodlatte of virginia. good to have you with us

t me first ask you for your evaluation. you are -- you've already move forward four elemes stand ale bills. phe ag act which is the agricultural guest worker program, the legal workforce act, which is e verify employer verificaon of the hired, the skills act for high skilled immiation whic isn't being discussed on t other side of the l, andhe safe act. how confident are u that we're going to see sensible reform emerge from the house and the sena ts year? >> i feel very good about the safe act that you mentioned last deals with something thais not being dealt with in the senate in any significa way, d that isnterior enforcement. 35 to 40% of the people w are lawfully present ithe country entere legally. so fixing the border is certainlpart oour agenda in the house, but that doesn't

cover the problem becse once you're in on a student visa, visitor visa, business visa, visa waiver and you don't have the interior enforcement involvg state and local government, involvingher measures that probit the preeident from basically flipping a switch and not even enforcing aspects of our immigration losshappens today, you're not addressing the problem. so senator cruz made some good poinn the remarks you just broadcast. and we are attempting to go in a very different direction in the house where we fix allf tse problems as we address the overall immigration situation. >> your incremental approach and i should point out tat you and congressman troy gowdy are leading the way on e s.a.f.e. act is takinon the issues that matter the most. they are the elemental, the foundation issues if you will of illegal immigration into this country and at this point, how confident are you that you're

going to have the leadership support and the suppt of the house? >> we think that we have gotten a very good response from our rank and file members in the ep by step approach that we're tang and i feel very good about producing good, solid legislationhat addresses these problems before we jump to the concluons abouthat kind of legal status should be given to people who are not legally present in the united states. we're going to start that of process in terms of markups. we'll have an announcement on that very soon, and we'reoing to pursue it aggressivelybut don't feel we're bound by a timetable but by getting it right. >> one of the conundrums th surely fac you and all of those leading investigations and seeking to understand and to govern this massive organization we call the federal government,

there s to be an understanding that we -- thegencies we trust most in this coury are the united states military and those who are, if you will, at the point of t spear in intelligence and covert operations. and then there's the ress of the government right now. and it's a strange time. we don't trust congress. every ll shows s we trust our troops. we trust their aders. we don't trust the prident, we're talking about a president who's underwater with his approval ratings now. we don't trust our leadership. 71% according to e latest fox news poll, 71% says this is the best we can do? and in the mst of this, we have these folks, whethert's the state department, whether it is the justice department whom we rely on for so much and u'll be talking one of the principal leaders of the justice partme, the head of the fbi.

i mean we're caught in a difficult conundrum right noo, and it see to me a treacherous time, and it's not a play on words, i assure you. a treacherous time for all of yowho are in chge of governing this great countryy. >> tt's absolutely true. when you lookt the benghazi scandal, you look at the ir subpoena investigation of various coertive groups, tea parties and we find far, far more array of groups at were targeted for special investigion by the irs, when you look at the use of, i would argue, extra attention for reporters who are repoing the news, a.p., the fox news reporter who is the chief washington correspdent and yet eated like a comommon criminal in the warrant that was sought to get his e-mails. >> we should point outhe's

tread that w an fbi ent. remember the justice department and a federal judge. >> approv byhe attorney general. >> absoluly. >> the federal judge actlly apologized a few weeks ago right after the attorney geral testified because he realized that what he had approved and sealed, he had kept sealed for andditional 1 months longer than hhad agreed to, d i think he probably realized when all of these scdals broke that he had forgotten to do that. so that actually helpedus to advance our investigation considerably. it's the job of the congress and the judiciary committee to take the necessary spso look into this newestatter and the others, ofourse, but this newest matter to find out what we need to do t increase the trust of the american people in their military, in their intelligence gathering, in e fbi becae they do have do their jobs but they have to do them right. if the rules need to be changed and the oversight needs to be changed, we should be prepared

>> congressman, we appreciate it so much. the wounds of war inspired a ucla surgeon to help america's wounded heroes. weintroduce you to the doctor who started operationn me and the formerarin who bece patient zero after talking on television with me. my mother made the best toffee in the world. it delicious. so now we've tned her toffee into a business. my goal was to take an idea and ma it happ. i'm janet long and i formed my toffee company through legalzoom. never really thoht i would make money doing what i love. [ robert ] we crted legalzoom toelp people start their business and launch their dreams. go to legalzoom.com today and make youbusiness dream a reality. at legzoom.com we put the law on your side.

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lou: turng now to o wounded warriors an aaazing program at provides reconstructive surry to severely injured service membersnspired in part by a conversation betwe a marine corporal a i talking on the air some seven years ago. it's called operati mend. and ththe program has treated me than 80 of our wounded warriors since 2007. joining us now is marine corporal aaron mankin, iraq war veteran, wounded in 2005, the first operation mend patient. it is great to see you, aaron.

good to have you withus on the oadcast. >> good evening, mr. dobbs. thanks for having me back on the show. >> and ronald katz, the founder of operaon mend, a member of the uc medical center bod. this is great to have you with us, ronald. i've got to say that the when we heard that you had gotten th idea for this watchin aaron an me talking, you know, i just sat re and sort ofscratchedy head and thought what a -- he was such a great spokesman for the brooke army medical center in san antonio where we met for all of our wounded veterans. i couldne more delighted that you found him so nspiring. >> well, i really did. he was exceptional and seeing him o your program. >> what is the program, operation mend, aaron, meant to you? you have traveled so far.

i said you were wounded in an attack. we can -- as i sit here looking at you acrossthe way, you know, you look amazing. yo know youe back to that rugged marine look that you represented throughout your life. it's been a hell o aourney though, hasn't it? >> you k half of what we learn is from the journey gettinggfrom herto there. that was just one day in my life in iraq. severely wode as i was. coming from that point now having endured nearly 60 surgeries in the pastight years and having a program like operation mend be there for me as a resource justaving served my country andome home and have my cntry want toerve me in such a unique way to provide su specialized care i to give me back a sen of my humanity,

to give me my normal ba to who i was. it's inaluable. i can't thank ron or ucla medical systems or brooke army medical ceter, everyone who is touched myife along the way, i can't thank them enough including you, sir. >> i did nothing. you know, i had the honor of reporting your story and gting to know you and it's a treasured honor, i assure you. ronald, let me ask you this. you've been seeing money, various funding, governmen the work, i've got to believe that people when t heard me say 80 patients they thought, well, that isn very many people but until they me the folks who need the help and the -- you know, that's a huge number. tell us what we can do to help you. >> well,s you recognize, we deal with very severely injured patients, anit's not a single

surgery that takes placeebut basically in aaron'scase, it's a large number of surgeries. and you have to reallyly y attentn to these lks. the services that we provide are completely free everyone thatarticipates gets to come to ucla, and we bring their family tooecause we think the family component is crital. d to beble to care for people like aaron and their families and give them this experience along with all of the people in los angeles that have kind of gravitated to these young men and women, it's a very exciting community experience really. >> well, we want to put u on the screen where our viewers can help out if they are so -- if they so want. i hope that you do. operation mend.ucla.edu. aaro partner, it's great to see you. i'm delighted that you're doing

so well, and i know those kids of yors, your daugers mean the world to you. i wish you all the very best and look forward to seeing you soon. >> thank you. >> aaron, thank you vy ch. ronald, ank you for all you've done. we will help. you continue your good work >>hank you. >> up next, in his new sbook american gun," we'll b talking with william doyle and about, well, a fascinating study with ris kyle, the allen marine sniper. william doyle next. man: ♪ all in together now

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at t time of chris kyle's tragic dea in february o this year, he was finishing up a book that defined his passion with

gu. americansniper, a runaway best seller. "american gun" tells the ty of how ten unique american firearms shaped the history of this country. kyle reveals how firrms innotion, creativity and industrialgenius pushed our history and power. here on behalf o chris kyle and co-author of "american gun," is william doyle. >> great to be here, lou, on behalf of chri kyle. % >> i always le authors. you guys never trust me to have a copy of the book. 's a teific book. we recommend it to you. it is fascinating m that you took this idea, ten guns or weapon are if youprefer, that are rerkable. you're talking about the long rifle, the repeater, the spencer repeat, the colt .45, the peaccmaker, the stuff that we grew up on as ds. the winchester rifle, the 73,

the 94, any number of these lever actionifles that are just terrific parts of american western historyand history. tell us about the relationship between guns and ameca, if y will, broadly. >> chris kyle thought that there was an amazing series of stories to be told about how gns have shaped american hiory and they have. whether -- n matter where you are in the political spectrum and this is a book not about politics but aut great american history. krauttthought, it's important for us to know, r example, abraham lincoln was a gun buff. and a chnology geek. abraham lincoln had a shooting range of his own behind the white hous and he would go back there and fire off roundsat targets to test new gun technologies. in fact, one day he w crouched down shooting, and the police came by because there was a rule against that in washington at the me. and they started hollering a cursing at him and r over to grab the gun from him, and abe

lincoln, the witness described uncoiled himself higher, higher, and higher. and presente himself andhen they realized t police reized, my god, that's old abe himself. and they ran away. and lincoln said whoa, they might have stuck around to see the hooting. so presidential n buffs are inteing or the involvent of presidents and guns. teddy roosevelt helped create the springfield 1903 rifle that our trps are still using a version of around the world today. and john kennedy was intimately involved in designg the 16 which we use today. it's a fascinating conction, isn't it. >>. >> absolutely. the m-16 which suppland the m-14 and the oldm-1 garand rifle, the 30 aught 6, such a gnificent part of r history. many gun buffs still consider to be one of the finest weapons ever designed. >> the m-1 saved the world because my father and so many mbers of e greatest generation had that gun by their

siden combat zones in world war ii. that gun was better than the japanese version, and it was better than the german standard shoulder rifle. now that counts for history and it counts for saving american % lis. that's the inresting interplay between technology and move ofoffing our history forward an back, with putting food on the table, expanding the country. you know, we know about the crimes quite well, but i think what we've forgotten is the connection thatguns have to our mitary history and to r frdom in many ways. >> solutely. when we talk about guns that you know that wo the wet, we're talking about the peacemaker, we're talking about the spencer, we're tking about the hester repeating arms. it is a terrific idea, brilantly executed. you got another big winner on your hands, and i'm sure that chris kyle would be thrilled with the result. >> thanks a lot. >> thank you very muh. good to have you with us. willm doyle, the book is, as i

said "american gun." it'sn sale. now online or at bookstores everywhere, go to lou dobbs.com for links, as well. we'll see you retomorrow. thanks for being with us. i'm phyllis and i have diabetic nerve pain. when i first felt the diabetic nerve pain, of course i had no idea what it was. i felt like my feet were gog to sleep. it progressed from there to burning like i w walking on hot coals... to like 1,000 bees that were just stinging my feet. i have a great relationship with my doctor... he und lyrica for me. [ female announr ] it's known that diabetes damages nerves. lyrica is fda approved to treat diabetic nerve pain. lyrica is not for everyone. it may cause serious alleic reactio or suicidal oughts or actio. tell your doctot away if you he these, new oworsening depron, or unusual chaes mood or behavior. or swelling, trouble breathing, rash, hives, blists, changes in esight including urry vision, muscle pn with fever, tired feeling, or skin sores from diabetes.

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