lou: good evening, everybody. they do for being with us.e one nation prevail in asserting its interest at the annual iranr summit in northern ireland, and it was not the united states.das two days of talks at the ga in belfast and a one-hour discussion between president obama and prudent turned out to be an embarrassment for the president. russian president and syrian ally of vladimir successfully blocked the final statement fron including a call for the syrian president assad to step down. and the putin vetoed a ntion condemnation of fox business after insistingsad after there is still no proof that

syrian regime used chemical weaponsun against his own people as theed obama white house claims.obam president obama's foreign policy looks increasingly modeled andly confused, particularly and most urgently on the issue of syria. on the eve of that summit thehe obama administration made theat hawkish announcement that it would be sending small arms to the rebels, some of whom haveul dangerous ties to al qaeda. in the interview president obama denied his policy had changed all. sy and with a peculiar pension forl the inconsistent, he warned about the deeper involvement ine the syrian civil war. >> it is very easy to slip sliding away into deeper and a deeper commitments because if it is not working immediately thent what ends up happening is sixix months from now people say, well, you give them artillery. a

now what we really need is x ane now what we really need is why.i and tell assad is defeated in this view it is never going to b enouegh.>> seu: so for now the president seems content to offer aid, and that is beginning to add up. president obama is pledging an another $300 million in humanitarian assistance, half of which will be sent to the peopla inside syria and half of which will be divided among refugees d in neighboring countries which brings total u.s. aid given since the conflict began to more than $800 million with most of0 the money committed over the two two months. any resolution in syria willsyri have to wait until peace talks n which have been scheduled for next month in geneva scheduled for xt month in geneva are to be held before august. the president still hasn given a cleardefense of the nsa and

surveillance programs and for that matter neither has congress my fst guest, geral alexander said -- andrew mccarthy is the author of the best sellers, jihad and the grand fever. nice to have you with us. general alexander was forth right it seemed. he made a compelling case and even since in that committee with the hearing room the committee was growing up a little. i didn't hear what congressman ship started giving thh geral valuable advice i'm sure but it seemed more mature than it's been. >> you have a real adult who was complete command of the facts and i think made the most compplling defense of this program. now, i don't think it will be enough because there's nothing

like the bully pulpit and as effective as general alexander is, he's not th preside. these programs really need the defee of the oval office and specifically president obama. >> the pdent's defense of his ainistration, this agency, rose to this level. he thought it was pretty transparent, the prism program. what does he need to be effective in the defense of n and his own administration? >> anything but transparent but i think after five years with the oh, passty of this ministration transparent is the butt of a joke that will be effective inhe discourse. he needs to explain much like general alexander did why we need these programs and what the structuralivil liberties protections are them because the run away freight train here is that people who are opposed to the program andsaw the issue

as a way relitigate everything they losthen the patriot act was authorized, have stolen the narrative here and basically have people thinking that the intellen comnity isctively spying on americans. >> i think today -- if i'm correct in sensing some higher level of maturity on the part o the committee. perhaps it's about to ebb. they of cose always have the reinforcing value of the national media given the politics of the matter. but hopefully we'll see more attentiopaid to the chinese cyber attacks in this country than on trying to take uphe time of those who are leading the effort to protect the country and its infrastructure let me turn to the g 8 summit in bellfast. the president talke away basically slapped around by putin. it was an abysmal performance

for the united states. >> how could it be anything but thou. you have ideological progress sifs who think that the way to conduct the foreign policy is not to be guided by the compass of our own vital interests but to be part of a community in which we recruit countries that are hostile to the united states,ery much included russia and give us a veto and that is largely because we're living in barack obama' world and which is the resultf it. >> and we will be doing so for some time and in the matter of days we'll be taking up direct talks, the united states will, with the taliban, on a resolution in afghanistan. i mean, this turns our history, our foreign plicy for decades

on its ad and leads where? >> it leads to where common sense takes you which is that a war has a winner and a loser and if you don't stay in it to win it, you lose. a lot of what has gone on from the president's speech abt how he's's basically declaring that the war isver without having to dohe hard work to end in a positive way, they're trying to dress this up into something other than a humiliating defeat for the united states. >>ndrew mccarthy, good to have you with us. >> thank you. >> what should edward snowden with treated with? our analyst judge andrew

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♪ joining us now foxews senior judicial analyst judge andrew napolitano. judge, edward snowden has brought the world down arnold his head by stepping outn this. some people describe him as a hero, others as a traitor. where are you? >> i have described him as an american hero when i first learned of this and i continue to stand that position. if he did what he said he did, if he is the person who revealed l the government's unconstittonal avior, he's confronted with the following. oath to keep secret the informatn he was given, on oath to uphold the constitution and a clash between t two. so what do you do? which is higher? his oath to keep secret or his oath to follow the constituti.

the constitutio is the supreme law of the and. he has a moral and constitutional obligatioto reveal it. >> you used the hypothetical, if. there are a lot of hypotheticals in this. right now i don't know specifically what he's charged. i haven't heard itrom him. >> i don't think any -- what he's charged or been charged with? >> what he is charging. represents a violation of the constitution olaw. it's unear. as you step forward and others have to call him a hero, does i timing because we are in a speculative era, the timing of his revelations which wiped away a two day summit btween the president of the uted states and the president of china. his presce in hong kong and s charges that the united states was hacking chinese locations and facilities, does

that all give you any dis iet? >> it doesn't trouble me at all. thetiming of the revelation was set by the reporters to whom he spoke. he's been speaking to them for a long time. secondly, i reject the idea that we should dwell on him, his background or his motivation. we should dwell on what the government has done to us in our name. you used an interesting phrase, whether this is legal or constitutional. they're different. >> i used both of them. >> you did. i'd like to dwell on that for a moment. the congress thinks it can ite any law and regulate any behavior and tax any event. in congress's mind whatever it says is legal is legal. but because the constitution restraints them, prohibitits a arch warrant for 113 milln american whethey are looking for two or three, it's unconstitutional. when the governme has done is legal because the patriotct authorizes it but unconstitutional because the congress has attempted to

disregard the constitution. >> it will be interesting to see where you come down when all the facts are known. >> we learn more facts every day. >> we do and i can't imagine why one wouldn't be dis quieted but you're a man of courage an intellect. >>ou mean it tes courage to hit here? >> not at all. >> i'd like to come back when we learn morr about it. >> you've got a deal and we will make it frequently. the white house overloaded with scandals. scandals. we'll ow you why the she knows you like no one else.

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and integritto every pla we are morgan stanley. and wee ready to work for you. >> there's a while during the president's first term it seemed he could do no wrong in the eyes of his supporters, at least the national media as well. now the obama white house scandals are coming at such a furious pace nearly everyone seems toave a problem with at ast one of those controrsies and scandals. ta a look at just some of these. one, the internal revenue service, if you pay taxes you miiht be a little upset with them whether it's because they

targetedconservative groups or spd millions of dollars on conferences. the liberal national media is over this scandal by the way. the big three networks have gone from hing 96 stories about the irs in the first two weeks when the scandal broke to one story this week. we have a little proem with th way they approach things as you might gues if you happen to believe congress has the right indeed the obllgation to know what our government is doing at home and abro abroad, you may be offended by the administration's mine month stone walon benghazi and roger ails put it ell when he said, quote, i've come to the colusion that i don't even care what the president of the united states was doing at night but i would li to know what the commander in cief was doing that night. if you believe in the first amendment, the freedom of the

pres the white hou's sweeping record seizure of documents, should cause your blood to boil over along with the associated press intrusion. fourth, if you are one of those crazy constitutionalists and actually believe in the second amendment and your rights, you might beupset to learn vice-president biden is rebooting his push for gun control next week so you can look forward to at. if you believe in the national interest and plain spokenness from the president's administration, you may be curious as to why thi whit house won't characterize swden as an outright traitor. perhaps at the hang on to the idea thatt's just a coincidence that nsa leaks came at the same time the president waholding summit with the chinese counter part on chinese cyber attacking. you haven't seen a story about it at all in the wake of these

leaks. six, if you get fired up over women's rights and abuse of power, this administration in general will bet you're revoeltd by accusation that the state department covered up accusations into sexual consult and prostitution. 7, if you believe the obama's administration's claims that they would be the most transparent in history, it probably ticks you off that political appointees and head of agencies have been using secret e-mail accounts to conduct official government buness. we'll find out more surely. so the president has all these scandals going on and he doesn even have nickname like tricky dick nixon or slick willie clinton. this president does it seems need a nickname given all this. we thoughtht it would be teresting to invite you to share eas as towhat that

nickname would be. e-mail me at lou at loudobbs.com. by the way, just to get you started, our executive producer came up with the first idea, we've already discounted it. his offering was the bamboozler. pretty good, right. let's hear your ideas. president obama and puti agreeing to sagree on syria. agreeing to sagree on syria. whdry mouth definitely affected my self confidence.

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>> for mor now on the different perspectives on syria from the president's putin and obama, we welcome now fox news middle east drwaleed and fox ne military contributor. thank you for being with us.

this meeting amounted to what as they declared they had different perspectives and basically agreed to disagree? >> well, that's what they've done in northern ireland. the reaty on the ground is different. on the ground you hhve aery aggressive syrian regime as we heard in the introduction the irans across syria. on the other hand an unstoppable al qaeda penetrati o the opposition. so the only group with om we can partner is w being weakened. that's the free syrian army and the secular people of the free syri army and we don't have a syria plan. we have a syria step after step buwe don't have a comprehensive strategic plan so far. >> geral, we're listening t senator mccain, senator graham and a handful of others but primarily from the republican party saying that we've got to get involved, there has to be a

no fly zone. we have to start arming these rebels. it is a peculiar thing in washington that is erupting for support for anoth cflict in the middle east. your thouts? >> i don't think they know what they're talking about. ey're talking about supporting genera e dress and ease not the one that we just talked about. dr. paul, a former fox military analyst has met on two occasions and they are secular. th are the ones we need to help but we're talking about arming the wrong people. as far as a no fly zone goes, lou, the only no fly zones are in the united states oer our air basis where we've grounded one third of our tactical air and now they want tocrank it up. weren't readiness-wise prepared to do this. could we do it, sure but it

would be a gat cost to us. it's not going to happen with this administration because they do not have a serious strate on what to do with syria and what our goals are. that's the veryworrisome thing. >> it's all about unconceivable at the united ates with the very same leadership that has led us to the result in iraq and afghanistan that the american people and even a would think of those strategies in command. >> we d't have a stomach for it, the public doesn't have a stomach for it. >> let me be clear. i wasn't talng about having the stomach for it but e good judgments and the intelligence, i'm referring to the american

people, to tell failed leaders n't both. >> you have a point. we are not yet talking to the right people. if we want to do anying about it, the administration maximum goal at this point in time i to bring back some sort of balance of power between the opposition in general without defining what is the opposition and the assad regime in the hope to take everybody to geneva where the russians are waiting there not to help us and give us a veto. that road is not going to be a solution. the other critiq coming fm inside washington, from some members of congress is that we're ing to do an all outno fl zone over syria. the general was right when they said there are commanders of the fsa who are secular. they should be invited to

washington, not istanbul, but to congress and clarify what syria ww're going to see after assad if at all. >> talking with the chief of staff in theunited states air force some years ago he pointed out to me that we have had our air power eaged, at that time it was some years ago, but now it's 22 years that we have had our air power engaged and no fly zones, in combat whether it's now in fghanistan. this has been an unprecedented persistent use of ar power and an air force that h been tak to its limits. has it not? >> absolutely. in those 22 years we've worn a lot of the equipment out. we have not modernized the f 22 which would be absolutely required in syria if the russiansut in the 300 service missile. you have to be steth if you are

doing to survive in that. so fundamentally we have 100 f 22s that are capable of operatinin this regime er this time frame we've continued to draw down the number o squadrons that we have. we've put tm in the bone yard thugh sequestration and other budget cuts. lou, you are spot on. we have over the last 22 years, we're not the same air force that we were 22 years ago. >> and we're deploying f16s to rdan. i'mnot entirely sure what wi be the result of that. we a looking at continued incremental steps toward ratcheting up at least the potential for conflict. what would be e if we do engage in russia and are we prepared for such a conflict? is this commander in chief preped for such a conflict? >> i don't have an answer t

that. what i can say is there is no strategic plan. there are three conditions for our success insyria. number one t partner with the right people. we want to see them in washington. number two, we need to tell quarter and the other arab stops stop funding and three, we need to be preparedor conontation with he's bull land iran. >> general, you get the last word as we watch pesidents putin and obama come to no conclusion i their meeting.g. >> presidentnt putin wants to humiliate preside obama and if president obama doesn't understand that he's going to be humiliate humiliated. radical are being unded in this particular venture so the moderates are not geing the

funding they need. we've exposesed rselves to a combination of challenges that if we do somethihing w have to o in big time and the american people have not been explained about why we should go do this and we do not have a strategy that would support that structure to go in and try to resolve this proble it is not a very good decision that we've left the american people. perhaps the israelis are going to have to pull it out themselves. >> gentlemen, thank you very much. the irs scandal targeting conservative groups, delaying applications, , playing politic and maybe, maybe committing felonies. we went out and asked people a simple question:

how old is the oldest person u've known? we gave people a sticker and had them shous. we learned a lot of us have known someone who's lived well into the 90s. and that's a great thing. but even though 're living longer, one tng that hasn't changed much is the official retirement age. ♪ the question isow do you make sure you have the money you need enjoy all of these years. ♪

>> my next guest is representing 25 conservative organizations

that are suing the irs claiming their constitutional rights were violated. joining us now is jay sekulo chief counl for the american center for law and justice. good to have you here. >> thanks for having me. >> this is a monumental if i may say, monumental legal action to go after the internal revenue service. you' going to have jacob lou, steven miller, holly as and other unknown irs officials. how did you determine them? >> the reason we listed those indiduals, we based on the information that we had during the process of examination hen these groups were trying to get tax exempt we knew who were dealing with. steve miller said he had no idea, he couldn't remember anybody's names. i had the agent's names, the

letters from lois lerner. we named the complaint. those who had knowledge of or actual engagement in the unlawful acts of the irs. we have listed ten or more unknowns. until we do the discovery we're not going to know how deep or high up it went. we're going to be amendinghat complaint in the next week or ten days, adding another 25 organizations and additial cocounts in the complaints, som areas that we have's since learned that we're concerned about. it is a monumental undertaking. filed a complaint that says you ulawfully targeted. normally they would say denied. how are we going to deny it because we attached the statements where we admitted it.

>> the response from lois lerner in particula not only an acknowledgment and admission of guilt but then an apology which compounds i would thinkhe evidence on your behalf. >> it does. i mean, the fact that she made the admission and we got the inspector general's reporwhere they acknowledge and uncover the targeting. they keep calling it targeting but targeting is a violation of the constitution. you cannot target someone based onheir viewpoint. i have doneemultiple cases on that. i said this the other day on your broadcast. i think the irs is institutionally incapable of self-correcting. this aernoon the irs placed on administrative leave two more officials, one in charge of the obama ce, affordable care act enforcement. the agency in complete melt down in my view. what needs to happen, i think

they should scrap th whole internal revenue cord but short of tha we need justice for our clients that these unconstitutional acts stop. >> you talked about changes, dages tolaims that have to be satisfied here by an agency of the federal government that under our constitution is supposed to be serving the american people, not targeting them. it's clear that they were doing precisely that through their own admission. what mages will you likely succeed or do you want to succeed in recovering from the until revenueervice forour clients. >> they need their exemptions. a numbe of these groups before we got involved incurred substantial legal fees trying to comply with these questionnaires that were coming from the irs. they need reimbursemt and we

ve clients th have lost grants. we talked abouttthis before, thisarticular group that was picked up in this dragnet of the irs. they weren't a tea party grp but a conservative organization and they were picked up in this dragnet and ended up losing a grant of $30,000. that there's real damages her and then of course there's the getting the government to stop because despite ptests to the contrary, jay carney's statements to thecontrary, the reality is on may 26 of 2013 we received another letter from one of our clients with ridiculous questions. the process has not stopped and we need to get the goverent to correct itsf and wthout a co order tey're not capable of doing. >> jay thanks for joini us. the ranks need to follow the right orgization toward some satisfaction o jtice against the irs and the federal

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>> apple, yahoo! google and microsoft all now claimhat they kw nothing about the so called prism surveillance program, but our next guest says we've already given up control of data and platforms to the very companies under discussio joining us to discuss whether or not we have any control at all over our privacy and secury on the web, bruce mier. he's a security expert and author of liars and outliars.

bruce, it's great to have you with us. i think that as a security expert you probably have the best opportunity to explain to us why anyone should not start laughing outloud when google and apple and facebook start talking about they deserve mo respect from us because they have just a few thousand request is from nsa and other agencies whenhey are the ones taking our personal and private information and dis sem nating it across the web, aren't they? >> we are aef giving it to th. it's nothat they're taking it. the nsa has to do with them taking it. we're giving it to these companies. in some ways that's the way the web works. they need us to trust them with our data, our friends, o phot, bu their real business betraying that trust to advertisers.

that's their business model. they try to hide it somewhat. they're transparent somewhat but th really rely on us not noticing. the fact that they had a sideline betraying us the government as well is just one more thing >> i'm curious about this because -- by the way, i didn't say that the compani took the information. i said they dis sem nated it various ways acrosshe web. that is the busine model. facebook in particular doesn't care what your privacy preferences are. they're going to do what they will. i find that utterly maddening that people are buying that posture almost unquestioned. >> there's a conflict of interest here. these are the very same types of correlations that you see in pristhat facebook and google and others do to better serve

you ads. thdifferce is going to be the lssitives. if google makes a mistake, they and the way in which we are treated as consumers and users. i think your exact in that. do you think that it's going to

persist for some time. >> i think is still going to ber for a while. that's the way the world works. you have company at random, if you have and i found an apple cy computer, you're effectively i i justing that apple will protect you, giving them all of your ting. there's a lot of convenience. yr there's a reason you do it, but you hope that they have alignedo interest.lo in a lot of these cases,ampl facebook, you are not the customer. you're the product that they sell normal customer vender relaonship doesn't apply in the same way. it's the fact th we are increasingly the product, that our data is the product makes us really into search for these companies producing data that they use to sell to advertisers and to the government. >> i think you make as i sai a fascinating poi. t i think we have to persist in that point and extend it o a.

you talk about we make this tradeoff about our privacy, for convenience of the alignment of interest. what could be a greater alignment of interest than the nsa and aovernment that is acting in our interesto otect us from terrorist, or a greater convience than to still be alive at the end of a day thanks to this broad surveillance program. there's a certai political, if you will, group in this country identifiable, easily identified that really hates the nsa doing precisely what google and facebook are doing. but in each instance their acts are almost analogous in both the alnment as you say of interest and the convenience, the tradeoff that isot always conscious, not always understood

by conservatives. >> right. this is what we need to understand. the questn is what's being done and how effective is it? we are the taxpayers. were the ones who pay for this, who ke that tradeoff. so weeed to be told how effective these programs are. there's be a lotf wheezeling. they might have been effected in some things. examples given have turned out to be false. weon't know whether these programs do any good. we don't know how much they cost, is this a good use of our money? they're very unlikely to be effective. this is why secrecy is bad. we needo know what the government is doing, understand what they're doing. if they're doing a good job, great. if they're doing a lousy job we need to fix it. this is what snowden did that was so good. he gave us information about

what the government is doing in our name with our money. let's find out if it's effective. we have ner seen a case that's effective or ct effective. >> why aren't people challenging the business models in the aggregate a highly concentrated and powerf group of companies that could as easy be cled like facebook, microsoft and -- did i mentn facebook? let me do it again. these e disturbing inconsistencies and contradictions when we start to look at ose. we start to lay bare something else evebody shoululd be aware of and that is the politics of those who are most exercised about, say, the nsa and those beginning to get pretty exercised abouout corporates wh are rely driving the virtual world in which we find great expeence and val.

>> there are two reasons. one i mentioned is ttat the harms are less great. being own a wrong ad because you're misclassified is different than being investigated because you're misclassified. >> whoa, wait a minute. it's almost ubiquitous privacy is being invaded by the corporates. theris a ver arw, small number who are being investigated by the government. they are not analogous on either size, scale or incident, but we're going to have to pick this up caus bruce, as you said, we could t talk for -- come on back and let's continue the convsation. i think it's a fascinating perspective you bring to it and we appreciate you sharing your insight. come on back. >> thank you. >> bruce nyer. up next we're going to be talking about the brand new book, the fnding

conservatives, troubles at the creation and how our founding fathers dealt with them and the fathers dealt with them and the people who brought

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♪ lou: a n >> a new bk sheds light on some lesser known conservatives who helped secure freedom during the revolutionary war. joining me now is did lefer, professor at nyu ae polytechnic institute. author of this book the founding conservatives, now a group of unsung heros saved the american revolution. congralations on the book. >> thank you. it's an honor to be here. >> we wish you the ery best of this book, be a massive sce. i lovehe subject and your thinking on it. let's start with you point out the three main arguments. i'd like to go through them qukly. the founding conservatives saved

the american revolution just as important as you said, bt who were these cservates first and why hasn't much until now been made of them? >> it's the remarkable story and the history of the american revolutions itself a fascinating subject that we go on and on about. they saved the american revolution in multiple ways. robert morris single handly financed the army. without him the army wod have grounded to a halt. you have james wilson and governor morris who wrote large parts of the uted states constitution. these foundi fathers are well known to historians but they have pretty much been totally left out of popular histors. >> i find fascinating you say we shouldn't be looking too much to briton, the united kingdom as the foundation for conservative thought and philosoy but rather, you say that the first

modern conservative was british statesman edmond burke. >> most histories trace the conservativism back to burke. i discovered that everything burke stood for and said was said a decade a a half earlr by the american founding 3 c1 consvaves. it struck me as strange and fascinating that conservative similar that is all about h heritage doesn't know its ownn har tank. >> the thinkers, the intellecs, thomas jefferson, a conservative? >> he was far more radical. one of the most surpring thin i discovered in the book is john adams was quite radical throughout the revolution. he changes his thinking toward the end of it. >> conservativism itself, give

us your view today of what statement its in. i have to tell you, i can't always recognize a conservave. >> i think these conservatives i write about offer tw lessons. the first is that they compromise, they fought tooth and nail for this country, let me emphasize that. they fght tooth and nail for this country. they compromised for the good of the nation. they put patriotismefore politics. they were facing a world of changing definite graphics. they were losing voters as free men from the lower classe and the middle classes, the right to vote these conservatives started losing their vote. they had to offer one thing to get their vote. that was prosperity. th said we will bring free rket capitalism to amera. it will make the people strong and rich. >> these modern conservatives as look around us, prosper us, brilliant, engaged?

>> conservatives face a similar tension today, how do you deal with the complaining lector at and stay relevant. >> we're going to see that answered. neil: well, who says the white house doesn't talk about stuff that's illegal. that's not so. the president's been talking 5 lot about illegal immigrants and finally making them legal and russia holding edward snowden still saying, well, that's illegal, but when it cooes to a certain irs scandal or justice department scandal or a pattern of health care department related scandals, not only does the word "illegal" come up, not a one scandal comes up, not ever. be careful about a president who picks and chooses what he finds illegal. history suggests the real events ultimately determines what is. welcome, everybody. i'm neil cavuto, and as we end this week, this just seems weak,