whether wee should continue this effort. what was one that was soad that i refused to write it down. that's it ffr us tonight. ♪ >> children. >> you sav john: in 198 has come to america. >> this big brother has done a lot greedier than george orwell thought it would never get. >> when you all grandma in braska the nsa knows. john: the president says you have nothing to worry about. > nobody is listening to your telephone calls. john: government officials do like. >> does the nsa collect any type of data at all? >> no. john: my fellow lertarians are mad at me. they say, i am not angry enough. >> you know, i don't think this is john stossel. i thinit is an impostor. john: i'm angrier than she is >> i don't mind. it's not like it will be on tmz.

john: big brother and privacy. that's our show tonight. -7♪ >> and now john stossel. ♪ john: 65ears ago, that novel struck a chord. ople feared the future would bring government spying on us through telescreens that were erywhere, even in our bedrooms. big brother was watching. when computers became popular people feared that the internet would become government's way of controlling s. we libertarians said, no, the opposite is true. the internet and personal computer revolution is have freed us from all kinds of governnt contro. it did, but lately we learn about several orwellian like intrusions on our privacy. most recently that the national security agency tracks our phone calls and some e-mails. this is a terrible threat to american liberties, says congressman justin amash.

congressman, why? they are just minding t debt. they're not lisning to our phone calls. >> well, it violates the constitution. the fourth amendment protections against unreasonable searches and seizures, and is clearly violates the fourth amendment. the problem we have is that the government is gathering information using what is essentiay a general warrant, which was outlawed by the constitution. they're going after people, not -n the basis of any suspicion, not on the basis of any probable cause, but just because they're people, just because the information is useful to the government. that is what our founders expressly prohibited with the constitution. john: it is useful to need to if it keeps me fromeing blown up by a terrorist. the fact that they are just standing everybody in some ways makes it seem like less of an invasion of privacy. >> well, the reason the fnders believed it was wrong is because we did not want the government collecting this kind affirmation. that put the constitution in place to prevent the government from injecting itself into our

personal affairs. and you c't do away with a lot of the constitution and argue thataybehat makes usafer. you could also do away with the first amendment, second amendment, third amendment, fifth, sixth, seventh. john: i don't want to do that. >> well, someone could argue and say, look, now the government can control everything, preventing crime. doubt it would work very well, but that is what they could argue. of course we would have a police state which is expressly prohibited by the constitution. @%e reason we have a constitution is to prohibit the government from doing this. john: believing the constitutional argument for a moment, can you make is live from the more? i don't see how my privacy is being invaded by these massive scans? >> well, that's fine if you completely trust the government. john: ion't >> the government can use t information, for example, to blackmail corporate executives. they could use the information

to persuade mbers of congress to vote a certain light, and they can u the information against the plic. we do not wt a cture in our country of distrust, of year. my parents ce from the mide east. they came from regimes that were tyrannical. and in those countries people were afrd to talk on the phone, they're free to talk to their neighbors because they're afraid everyone is a spy. we don't want that kind of culture. it has a damaging effect on our culture. john: you can i see it here. i made up this list of 100 things i hate more than the -- or as much as the nsa spine. and where do we write this? coming, you beeve in liberty. is it worse that ty do this data mining and the fact that they employ 22 million people? where our kids must go to school, a $17 trillion deficit, that they passed dddd-frank, that there a bailouts.

how much can we be angry about? >> i think it is all bad, but when you have direct violations of the constitution, when you have someone trying to infringe upon t fourth amendmt or the first amendment of the second amendment, those are serious threats against liberty, and more serious in many ways than the kind of financial exoitation that the government is involved in. it is true that the government is bloated. there has been no better advocate for balancing t budget and getting our debt under control than me, but at the same time, we have to look at this, o civil liberties. that is why we had a revolution back i the 1700's, because of civil liberties violations he. john in the 1700's we get the fourth amendment partly because british soldiers were going in people's homes and taking stuff and searching your most private space. hal is looking for patterns in a billion phone calls anywhere like that? >>ell, the problem is the legal theory they're using.

the legal theory they're using is that any time you use of third-party provider to store any of your documents, and most papers to there are electronic, digital. some most of theapers that we have in modern times are digital papers. the government is using the false and flawed logic and argume that that is all available to the public. once you put it out on a third-party server, the %-obtain it because it is no longer priva. that is ridiculous. jo: what do you say to t claim that maybe 50 terrorist incidents were stopped? >> we dot even know if that number is accurate. most of the information is classified. we cannot get to the bottom of -t. frankly a lotf t court opinions that deal with these cases are classified in a way wher members of congress cannot get the opinions. part of a we are doing with our bill is trying to make sure that these cases are available to members of congress. right now i actually can not read the court opinions that are

intereting laws like the patriot act. john: it certainly is a problem when they say is secret, trust us. congressman justin amash, tnk you. >> thanks. john: the other side to what congssman mike pompeo supporting the nsa spine. congressman, why? you heard what your fellow republicans said >> thank you for having me on the show. the good news in this case is th we don't hav t give up any constitutional rights. we can keep america safe. these programs that the nsa are conducting despite what representative justin amash said , are wholly onstitutional and there is incredible oversight from all three branches of government, exactly how the foders intended it, article e oversight, folks ke me w sit on the house intelligence committee. the program that is run bb article to an article three courts. confirmed. bees are programs that have been

conducted lawfully and constitutionally. representative justin amash has kept a lot of americans say for a long time. john: you have up record of being skeptical of government. what you t trust them on this? >> i don't trust individuals. there is no one who brings a deeper distressed to the federal government to washington d.c then me, but i have seen this process. the conces that representative justin amash has about this data, he talks abo them listening to calls and data mining. that just isn't happening. even mr. snowden has not done a single thing that is unlawful. he is not uncovered a singge task that there has been an unlawful action. john: is it okay for them to just lie to us? %-intelligence says this when asked about government surveiance. >> does the nsa collect any type of da at all on millions or hundreds of millions of americans?

>> no, sir. john: what are the rules? >> the rules are you tell the truth. inhat case, i've heard his story. is totally unacceptable. that is not how he should have answered the question. he should have been mo careful or given probably the most appropriate answer. these are classified programs and cannot talk about it in this setting. i am happy to share that with you in anpproiate setting. john: down the bad guys already assumed that we're doing this? is this really a revolution? >> i'm sure they assume a lot of things. it is important to these programs remain secret and classified in many ces. i can tell you this, already after mr. edward snowden release of this information through the guardian national security agency information indicates that terrorists are behaving differently. they might well have suspected that some of this was going on, but they learned a couple of things. not only what was going on, but they also lrned the legal limits of the program. having shared that is very

dangerous and allows the enemy at insight and things reviewing. coquette's the really bad guys, the terrorists who still want to kill us. john: are rare time when you are in full agreement with our commander-in-chief. >> you cannot have 100 percent security and also then have 100 percent pvacy and its zero inconvenience. john: you agree, i take it? >> well, i sort of agree with the presint commanded would be a rare time when i agrd with this president. i don't view this issue as partisan in any fundamental way. john: it is not clear how crucial financial security data mining is. the senator points so we ready have so much stated that the fbi misses. >> we can't seem to keep up with e people we have been told about.

the underwear bomber. his dad turd demand. we cannot keep up with them. he got on a plane. they think somehow there will go through billions of bits of information every dayy. john: was you answer to that? >> here is a glorious thing. we're not going tou these billions o things every day. th collection of phone records that edward snowden has talked about is not being used for data mining. there being used whe they're is a specific terrorist case that we can intify and say, we think we have information that leads us t to want to get checkd these phon records. it is not the case that we're constantly data mining. very specific uses of information with approval by the fisa court. i guess my last thought is this, no program is going to catch them all. there is no way you can ever create a perfect system and cash everyingle incidents of terrorism, but thess programs have been important and effective andre absolutely critical to rounding out our tion intelligence collection

apparatus. john: thank you, congressman mike pompeo. >> thank you, john. john: comi up, as said before, libertarians are mad at me. some call me disgusting. a libertarian in name only. our response to that later. next, a governmt intrusion i really am angry about. the irs abuse of people who have the wrong ideaa it. >> why are they in my kitchen? why are they looking to buy alec, f this mission i upgraded your smart phone ♪ right. but the most important feature of all is... the capital one purchaseraser. i can deem the double miles i earned with my venture card to erase recent travel purchases. d with a few clicks, this mission never happened. uh, what's this button do? [ electricity zaps ]

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♪ >> conservatives have private confidential tax informati leaked and conservative groups were systematically tgeted by the irs. john: that is a scandal that is clearly worth getting angry about. congress in its wisdom has decided that if you are running to and advocacy groups you don't get that tax deduction if they spend more than 50 percent of the money on political activity. we learn that the irs selected 500 conservative and tea party groups for extra scrutiny. agents were told to be on the okout for words like liberty compatriot, constitution. irs bureaucrats denied tax deductions to t party groups for

more than a year and oups.sed them with question that is despicable. this is just a raw political abuse. brooke rollins rs one of business that was abused, the texas public policy foundation. >> what happened to us in the spring of last year, 2012, our donor list a as a charitable organization, which is why we are, we have to f with the irs the list of our of larger donors. t, as you know, that list is suppos to remain anonymous and the irs in return promises to blackout every name before it releases that information about the organization. john: why should it be anonymous? people see if you give to a political cause it ought to be known >> this goes back to the founding of our country in my opinion. the right to associate and to engage is inherent in a democracy. john: you have a right to associate. you just he to be publi. >> let's go back to the civil

rights movement. alabama versus naacp, the state of alabama tried to force the naacp duringhe civil rights era to disclose their donors. as we all know, why would they? itould because they think that they could threaten those people not to give money anymore or %-to back down.rs of the naacp they knew that the current state of affairs in alabama would change unless they we able to undercut or dilute the naacp power and what they were trying to do. the u.s. supreme court said absolutely not. we have rights as americans to main anonymous when we support this is ideas believe in. john: likewise your donors know that if my name is publicized media will be harassed the way that others have been. >> that is exaly right. not surprisingly, on our list as well as many of the great americans and entreeneurs. when the left seize control of this list and wrote about it in their magazines, blocks, websites, that harassment

arted to come about absolutely. john: then there is that targeting. this did not happen to you. you already have a tax exempt status. this happens to others. at first the irs commissioner later the truth wasgeting. revealed in response to a question that was planted. an irs commissioner said mistakes were made by people trying to be more efficie. if you say tea partier patriot that's an advocacy gro. >> what is amazing and the news stories today or yesterday, wait, wait. we have progressive and art list. john: this just happened. >> we weren't really tgeting conservative spirit retarding everybody. but have you seen e progressive group step forward? wait a minute, you delayed us for two years, made us put in

23,000 pages of documents. there quest to become isc4. we have not seen any of that. that begins ur country. that is the crossroads where we ar john: and when government is so big and you want a tax deduction , you have to give them of disinformation. andt does not end until you mentioned the 23 pages of documents. >> 23,000 pages. that's right. john the coalition for life was asked to explain inetail the activity at praye meetings. provide the percentage of time your group spends on prayer groups compared to other activities. one group, the american patriots against government excess -- i like that name -- was required

to provide a synopsis of every book read. the president of the group said i don't havime to provide a book report. you can read them for it yourself. john: -- >> augusta the bigger point it was happening must top. this ishy we have to stand up and say no. john: some on the left don't see any problem with what the irs did. the former head of the tax division. >> iould not find anything that suggeed the irs had acted inpropriately. perhaps ineffectively, but not inappropriately. >> i have not seen what they did wrong. they are supposed to evaluate how much political activity a lot 501(c)3 wants to engage in. john: no problem. >> no problem. it is all just fine. the fact that those guys can

stand up and say that to me is astonishing. it also, in my opinion, gives such a great opportunity for the people ofhis country to stand up and say no more lahood. john: we hope that will happen. coming up, more ways your privacy is invaded. back to the nsa data mining. i don't mind it that much. we will try to get educated. a libertarian i am not. >> i don't think this is john >> i don't think this is john stossel. there is a pursuit we all share.

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♪ john: i'm curious that my government all the time. on my web page i posted this list of 100 things that enrage me about governments over reached. the irs bias against tea party groups is disgusting. farm subsidies, benghazi, corporate welfare, minimum-wage. it is all disgusting. i cld go on 100 times. in fact, i could probably get to

200. government computers scanning everybody's phone records to see patterns that might lead to terrorists? i'm conflicted about that. judge andrew napolitano says i should not be. should be furious. educate . >> i think you should be furious because you believe that we have natural rights that come from our humanity, among which is the right to be left alone, to preserve the rig to be left alone, the right to privacy. john: left alone by terroris. >> youlso want to be left alone by the government because of the government does n leave youlone you will have no privacy. people do not behave normally, naturally, or to their full exte when they're being watched by the government and then made it -- be the government's permission. when the gernment knows every phone call we make from where we make the call, to limit the ca, how long the call was, where they were, and can plug that into there out rhythms they can predict all kinds of behavior about us and they are not eitled to any of it und

the constitution without a search warrant. john: i still just don't personal fee the threat. i give up all of this private information and much more to facebook. >> but you do so willingly and decide not to. john: government is force. now you're coming around. you cant avoid the government. john: and facebook cannot lock me up or assassinate me. but my information is out there. so you say that they can look at all f this intercepting it in the air. >> your information is not out there. john: it is flying through the air. these electronic waves. don't you assume they are hacking your information. >> they dootrotect me from the government. the fourth amendnt does. media matters, just lik fox news, just like facebook, are free to d things that the government is not. that is whwe have this fourth amendment to mike -- to keep the government out o our bankbk

and bedrooms and frankly off of our back. which is worse? a renegade former spy divulged the truth about government lawbreaking, or that government officials lie about what he exposed? john: and picking up on your which is worse theme for something else, i have anger fatigue. is this worse than our $17 trillion debt, the drug war, what we have done to the american indians and so one? >> i don't know if it is worse than that, but it could lead to something that is. john: could lead? >> yes, of course. the sliery slope. i mean, a single phone call in the computer of a single spine is innocuous. all of our phone calls revealing everything about ourselves, exposing our innerst thoughts and behavior to the government will

don't know what is. think of it thi way. the government powers derive from the connt of the government. john: did you connt to this? the terrorism fears overblown people were frightened consent to this. they can consents. >> not for the rest of us. thank you.

john: here is what the predent said in response to criticism. >> and the people cannot trust not only the executive branch, but also don't trust congress and don't trust federal judges to make sure that we are abiding by the constitution and to processnblo then we will have some problems here >> absutcanard after benghazi, the assiate press, the rose an affair in the irs, nobody trusts this administration. who would trust congress when they, like the senator whose heart is in the right place, were told what the nsa was doing but to an oath not to reveal it. who would trust these federal judges to granted 99. 5 percent of every application sought before. john: who else do we have for oversight but congress and fel judges? john: transrency. when the gernment kno was governed -- going on they will be afraid to trample our rights. they have created a bizarre system of secret courts, secret information to the congress..3

congressman cannot tell anybody or vote. john: it is basedn secrecy. >> they can spy on foreigners all they want. i did not authorize the government to spy on the command you did not authorize the government to spy on you. john: know, i did not. i wonder if there is not some justificationn nsa spine. thank you, judge. i will keep trying to learn from you and others. up next, often big brother onne more than our records. it wants our pictures. more and more surveillance cameras watch us. i have gotten used to that too. am i a complacent dope? we debate that next. ♪ we went out and asked peopl a simple question: how old is the oldest person you've known? we gave people a sticker and had them show us. we learned a lot of us havenown someone who's led well into their 90s. and that a great thing. but even though we're ling longer, one thing that hasn't changed much is the official retirement age. ♪ the question is how do you make sure you have the money you need

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7,000igh school students drop out every schoolday. that's a line of desks more than 4 milesong. we can keep students in school. visit boostup.org and take the first step. ♪ >> new colors to put more security cameras all across america to save us from another attack. >> to you as okay with more surveillance? >> i want to get bombed. john: i don't want to get on

either. and if ceras might discourage that or catch bombers, help stop other crime, too, murders and robbies, i would say that's good. but the camerasre also a form of big brother watching all the time. sheriff russ martin says the loss of privacy is worth it. we are safer because of cameras. no, we are not says ginger mccall. cameras do not even work. she ictronic privacy of permission center. so what do you mean they don't work? i assume that they catch bad guys. >> well, historically we have seen that caras areeither effective at preventing crime, nor solving crime, particularly. john: what yo mean? they are. this is how we found the boston marathon bombers. >> actually, it is not necessarily a we found them. there were a lotf things going on. eyewitness identification, surveillance cameras that were privately owned, not governntal surveillance

cameras. eventually there were the fingerprints of the older brother. and we're in boston, there are government on surveillance cameras, it did nothing to prevt the bombing and we have seen two attempted bombings in britain which is one of the most heavy surveiled in london, which is one of the most heavily surveiled cities in the world. john: yet london is remarkable theory of 500,000 government cameras in london. they cled it the ring of steel, the closest comparison in the united states is chicago. 10,000 cameras versus 500. but, and london they had a they had an attempted bombing that didot work. and from that pictures are what caught the bombers before they could do the third time. i would call that a success. >> not necessarily. again, if the cameras are reay successful there woulde no crime in london, no bombings in london. there it certainly not successful at preventing. john: that is a high standard. what is the heart? >> these camas real very

private inrmation. aeveal very private information about where you go, who you go there with, associational information, you're spending your time with. if a record audio, they can record your conversions. theyust record video, it can record you going in to a gay the number of places that you would probably not want other people to know you're going. john: shares martin, what about that? >> well, i think she is missing the point here, john. as a matter of fact, i think the boston bombers were prevented from committing other offenses in their own city. so that video of surveillance helped identify the suspects. and although peaps it did not prevent that initial offense, your preventing offenses down the road. i think it is an effective tool for law enforcement. >> i want to point out here that in the instance of boston, it was not govnment-round cameras that ended up helping to identify the suspect pulled.

private indiduals and companies. >> law enforcement, we are less concerned whether the arab public or privately held. the fact that there are capturing an image in helping law enforcement, it is an effective piece of technology in 2013. john: share of martin, i should disclose, i have a nepotism connection here. he is the father of might assistant to is herin the studio. but that should not affect the content. we just thought you would be a good spokesman. what do you say about the examples ofbuse, the san francisco pice officer use surveillance cameras to a women. nnw york cops were caught loomingt couples embracing and fondling on rooftops. in alabama the cameras zoomed in on breasts anduttocks of several young women. >> of a police officer is involved in an automobile crash, we take all the police cars and light? absolutely not. those are individual incidents, and those officers need to be disciplined through the administrative process.

so you don't take away the technology because of a single incident of abuse. john: tha you, sheriff and gingee. coming up to now when it comes to government spying, some people say you have nothing to hi wt you worry about? there is plenty. government, like everyone, makes mistakes. government mistakes are more serious because government can take away your freedom. this oregon man and his daughter will tells the terrible thing in today's markets, a lot can happen in a second. with fidelity's guaranteed one-second trade execution, we route your order to uto 75 market centers to look for the best possible price -- maybe even better than you expected. it's all part of our goal to execute your trade in one second. i'm derrick chan of fidelity investments. our one-second trade execution is one more innovative reason

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♪ john: one reason i a not that upset yet about the nsa tracking phone calls is that i have already given up much of my privacy. facebook has access to all kinds of private informational tommy. but they'res a big difference between facebook, youtube, and the governmen facebook cannot tell me or assassinate me. the government might. if you're not doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about say some people, but brandon mayfield and his daughter did nothing wrong. they live in oregon and never been to spa. after terrorist's bomb trains in spain the fbi became convinced that brandon's fingerprint was on the bag o detonators down at

the scene. what flowed was a nightmare. >> i was in school on that day, may 6, 2004. qaeda picked up by my older brother, called into the office. he told me in a grim voice, let's go outside right now. i said, what's going on? he said, let's just go outside. i walked outsi and looked at me and said, dad was arrested by the fbi. i was in total shock. i thought it was a joke. i sai good one. he kept walking. whene reached the dinner my mother was, she w crying. john: and you stayed in jail f two weeks >> yes. i goa knock on the door and there was a big, burly individual, short hair, crewcut, minutive, female sang along the talk to me. originally at that mib

solicitors and said. and then the said they identified that they were from the fbi. they show their bads. and as they had holsters with guns i wasn't parcularly surprised at that point to be questioned by the fbi. i had just moved to the portland community, and i was hearing stories from other people that they were bng asked to talk to the fbi, beg questioned, even followed. john: even before that, you thought something weird was going on in your house. @% i had a creeping suspicion that people were watching as before this event occurred, potelly even a year or more before. and especially in the months after the attacks. john: why? >> one of the biggest giveaways for me was a hard drive that was taken out of my computer desktop

in my bedroom and not put back in properly. i don't know how computers work very well and did not know back then, but i was aware tt someone had been tampeng with my compute hard drive. the screws are not put back in properly on the desktop monitor. >> we learned later that they had almost 300 photographs of items in documents and our house. they had perris to our house when we were not there on more than one ocsion and at dawn and and looked through our hard drives, taken finger now clippings, dna samples. hn: how did ty get their fingerprint? your never been to spain. your passport had expired. why you? >> i eisted in the military in 1984. i went back in as an officer through the rotc scholarship program called the green to gold prprogram. invariably i was fingerprinted.

i was even -- i had secret clearance at one time. i word for military intelligence. had an application it is ironic. and apparently they had,ou know, allegedly found a latent fingerprint -- it was called latent print number 17 on a blue bag that contained detonat is in a white man outside of the train stationhere the madrid train bombing ourred. that played and was then photographed and was sent to various agencies around the world, including the fbi fingerprint examination unit. john: to fbi examiners agree that the fingerprint match yours >> i think it was actually three. john: anndendent expert also

agreed. so you must of been the bomber. points of comparison, which is a pretty strong match, but unbeknownst to us -- and we did not learn until later -- the spanish police were diligently doing their criminal investation and were looking at the print. they said it was not a match. john: my experience is when th police make a mistake they almost never even say sorry. in this case at least the fbi apologize to you. they wrote a letter. the fbi apologizes to . brandon mayfield and his family for the hardships that this matter cost and have paid you to milon dollars. >> that cous for something. irew up in the midwest. a handshake in someone's word goes a long way. i appreciate that, but one of the things that people forget is, we we not going to agree to anything. we discussed it. there are not going to agree

unssho were able to challenge provisions of the patrt act which amended the for intelligence surveillance act which made it possible for the government to do what they did. not only did they h a warrant for my arrest and search on the day was arrested, they also had secret warrants from a secret court that allowed them to go in and do all of the snooping and spying that they did, even though they did not have probable cause to arrest me. as you said earlier in your segment, facebook, you just as some people looking at your data, but you don't think it will come after you. the government does. john: you could say, given the happy ending, that people worried about the tea for spying, look, this is the worst case we could find. they apologized. and give you $2 million. maybe we should not fea the government. >> i would like to chime in ere. my biggest concern after my dad was released and continuing until today is that these

polies are continuinto exist it's not so much that my dad was a victim of the government's policies, but i would like to say that he was symptomatic of the sort of policies that we have now. if it can happen to him, it can ppen to others, and it may very well be it and we don't know about it. intel of fourth amendment right is restored and will be fully satisfied with just an apology. i have to see actions taken to show that this will never happen again to anyone. john: thank-you. we're out of time for ts. coming up, says i am being hammered by libertarians, i will try to better explain w i am less botheredy the nsa than i am about other things on this horrible list, my list of 100 nasty things government does. ♪ to fly home for the big family reunion. you must be garth's father? hello. mother. mother!

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oh! time! time out. i touched it. i touched the ll before it went out, coach. come on, alex, the ref did not call that! you gotta be kidding me, alex! it's the championship game talk to him, coach.

i tohed, it's their ball. don't foul them when they inbound. team on 'three.' one, two, three. nice going, alex. sorry coach. alex! good call. john: when the nsa data mining was revealed, i felt threatened. my government, whining and been secretly backing up data. i know what my government to know everythinn about me. something's got to be private. the government says that the data help them prevent 15 terrorist incidents from the 50? i don't believe it. bureaucrats always exaggerate the value of their work. it is the homeld security state.

people keepinn secrets are more prone to embellish. a spy says what they do is constitutional, federal judges approve everything. they will not abuse hisower. i don't trust them. they always abuse power. as one libertarian blogger put it, we will a suffer from the power of the nsa if we do not check in now. another libertarian weighed in defending the spying pointing out national security as an area where government is still desperately needed. in the wall street journal editorial at, data mining is less intrusive on individuals and routine airport security. that is certainly true. whenni started to think about other things my government does that i really hate or feel threatened by, i quickly had this list of 100 things. i encourage you to start your own list. it is revealing how easy it is to get to 100 well beyond. some of these of less invasive than data mining, but all are horrle

. these do did you worked up. the fact that government grew so much that it now employs 202 million americans. outrageous. i'm curious about our debt and continued deficit spending for things like $100 million presidential trips, and dubious pork, aad programs that don't work. the drug war causes crime and imprisons millions of americans diiproportionately minorities. that's horrible. so is corporate welfare and farm subsidies and the flood insurance that helps people like me. the government keeping american indians poor by smothering them withocial central planning. that is evil. so is too big to fail. and just having 170,000 pages of federalaw that we are all supposed to obey. i am infuriated by more than this list of 100 things that the government does. but data mining compared to all

of these other abuses. i need to learn more about that. and for saying that libertaris now call me disgusting and a libertarian in name only. some agree with my list, but they also agree with the blogger who wte, the existence of worse violations is not a reason to dismiss pretty damn bad ones. that's true. i do notismiss the danger in data mining. i don't. but keep in perspective. y is a newly discovered threat immediately declared much more outragus than all of these old ones? it is not. the n argument at least as two sides. terrorists want to kill us. if any terrorism is prevented by something as impersonal as data mining, the end may ustify the means. i say the jury is out. government has plenty of other thingsgs that free people are right to be furious about. we will keep reeorting on them. that's our show. thank you for watching.

♪ ♪ ger: hello, everybody, i'm gerri willis, right to the top story. the woman at te center ofhe irs scandal may be forced to come out and speak. lois lerner refused to answer question about the targeting of conservative groups declaring she did nothing wrong. the house oversight committee today ruling she waived the 5th amendment rights and can take her to federal court if she refuses to answer for her actions. joiningme, director for public notice. gretchen, welcome to theshow. great to have you here. did she