>> sure. >> okay. that's the kia optima. excited. no laws microphone was removed, thht is coming tomorrow. goodbyy. ♪ >> still coming across by the hundreds and thousands. john: iilegal immigration is down, but people still sneak and plexuses a pretty good-sized told. i am dissing this. >> it does not matter how high offenses. john: we need to seal our borders. >> god our borders, protecting the homeland. >> illegals steal american jobs. john: if immigrants are such up problem what is canada's immigration by billboards in america. >> we will take it. >> the fight of the american dream. that is our show tonight. ♪

>> and now john stossel. john: my parents were born in germany and could not find work in europe,,so ttey came here to america, people around the world america is the dream. as a libertarian i say, let people come, let the man. there should be free trade and labor as well as goods and services because that leaves everyooe more free a rich. except how can you let everyone and if some of them want to murder arrest? and since america is a welfare state, someone to come here. america's answer has been, well, we will let some people in legally, but we should seal the border to keep undesirables out. we recently spent billions to put up the giants' offense on the mexican border. how is that working out? special corporation -- special correspondent just went to the southern border with califoonia assemblyman.

a former member of the minutemen , one of the volunteer groups that started their own border patrol's to try to help stop illegal immigration. >> caught between two governments. so many politicians pontificate. john: the border fence to not cover the old border. >> as smart smuggler is not going to go to where the security is. he will take the weak spot. john: lots of weak spots like this and guarded tunnel that led him what to mexico. >> you are in mexico now. you're in violation. john: even where there was fans, people vetiver. they bring ladders like this one we found lying right next too te fans', they cut holes in the fence. this one has been passed, but it does not matter how high fences if you can cut holes in it.

john: many illegals are caught sneaking through, they are sent back to mexico, many media the sneak back to america. it is where the jobs are, this man says. >> ne, two, three, four, five times. john: four years later, fewer cross illegally because the mexican economy has done better. we build bigger, stronger fences. john: as the border patrol now we are here? >> oh, yes. john: an hour lat they showed up. >> filming a segment. i intend donald -- ten donnelly. john: after that the left them alone. once more fences. >> is this your ideal fans? >> this is good. it forces people who want to smuggle something to go to a high point where law-enforcement border patrol agents can easily see they have been interdicted. we ought to secure it. john: a problem with the current

fans. >> here is this biggeffective miti dance. impervious, scalable. then all the sudden it just hands. this right here is absurd. >> despite the billions we have spent, there are still lots of balls in the fence. especially the older part. >> this looks like a pretty good-sized already your. >> this is an area that we have voluntrs who came down with a welding track and well that up these holes. i mea it is patchwork. >> i'm touching mexico. john: not that hard to get over the fence. drug dealers build ramps. this car happens to get stuck. kennedy found it was pretty easy to climb the fence. >> you could totally get over this. john: in fact, there were >> pointy. >> easiir to cross from the other side.

jjhn: thank you for going there and clearly there are problems with both sounds. but proponents of the wall say, hey, this deters people. this keeps a lot of people out. >> not really because there are only 33 percent of the border that is actually protected by some kind of fencing. as you saw, -- john: suspect at downtown every 2,000 miles in the mexican border. >> just the southern border. john: the other part is harder to get to, mountainous. >> it is mountainous, boris. there were hes all over the part of the fence that we saw. arizona, texas, you're going to see the same thing. it is the -- chain is only as strong as its weakest lin the chain is only effective as pistol. john: this is the age of cool, amazing technology. i would think with drones, the cameras, president bush found it a virtual fans. >> he did promise a virtual

fans, but it was costly, still requires a lot of border patrol manpower. john: they give up on it. >> they did. it was costing billions of dollars. the gao, a general accounting office issd several skating reports about the virtual fans because it was a boondoggle, too expensive and it was enough time to work and still require just as much if not more manpower john: they could spend more, but most of the people who sneak in the country now, 40%. >> forty to 50%. forty to 50 percent of the people like him into this country and stayed illegally are here on student visas. john: illegal visas and then just she was there already in the country. >> they hang out and stay past their visa stamp date. john: all wall does not solve the problem. thank you. currently congress is working on an immigration reform bill. many people are optimistic that there will come up and it , but an agreement and an easier path to citizenship.

i, for one, up they do. many conservatives are nervous. for years they wanted more done about thht stream of people crossing the border. >> we cannot shut that off unless we build a fence and a wall. i want to put all wall in. i designed one. >> a little bit of wire on top to provide. put a letter there. @% can also electrify this wire. the kind of current that would not kill somebody the simply be a discouraging for them to be fooling around. livestock all the time. john: immigration problem should improve, he says. >> you can take it back now. if somehow they got their economy working and got their laws working and in mexico we could pull this back and just as easily as reported in. john: former presidential candidate in colorado congressman, more security and wants other measures to deter illegal immigration. congressman, thank you for joining espirito would you do?

we showed the holes in the wall3 that does not look like the answer to me. >> it isn't. and the reporter is absolutely correct when she says it is only as good as its weakest link. there are some places where there are not at all. it is almlmost a joke. for the most part it is done for the purpose offand coming tohh congress and the american people and saying, we spent hundreds of millions of dollars on the border. it is now secure. the fact is, you can spend hundreds of millions of dolla on the border and is still not will be secure. here is what can be done. all you have to do his mandate and then enforce e-rarefy. the mandated for eveey single employee. they have to simply take social security. adelle oline and it takes two minutes of the most. d.c. the person wanting a job, let they're social security number and put it and bse bat-to-bat.

i don't know what's wrong with it. the number is bad. if you do that, if you mandate and un force to important things , e-verify. most of this problem goes away. you say enforce. john: meaning that somebody would punish the business that hires someone without using e-verify. >> correct. or if they use it, even if they use it and still hire a person who is coming back with the wrong social security number, that could be a violation and after enforce it. john: this sounds very appealing. just one computer database where you can check. but you are a conservative. you don't trust the government. why would you trust them to run e-verify correctly? >> well, right n about50,000 businesses use it. they u it on a voluntary basis. it is a relatively easy thing to

do. we require businesses to do all kinds of things in terms of hiring practices. this is probably the easiest step in the process. a simple entry into a database. right now is like 98 percent accurate or better. john: think about that, 98 percent. 98 percent accurate sounds pretty good. and it a gao audit into dozen 11 found it was even better. 99 percent accuracy. but that means about 450,000 people who are legit get flagged as illegal. that is awful. >> first of all, they don't get the job is the issue. you know what, this is not 100 percent. it is not 100 percent.

@%t it just depends. you want an answer? that is my question. you actually want to do something about it all would you rather have, as you said, labor foe that is affected only by markets? demand. people come. the wwge rates and lowered because they're ia lot of demand. so be it. john: what's wrong with that? >> well, what is wrong with it? okay. how about the millions of americans whose wage rates are depressed and/or the people who are displaced. the employer like that and a lot of consumers would like it, but the workers are oing to be negatively affected. john: what about the americans to do have just because their work for gloria who were tse businesses created by emigrants.

>> let them keep working. immigrants, we are not trying to stop every immigrant from coming into the country. why not take in that we need desperately, people coming in wi capital to actually do exactly what you said, invest in business. people coming in with skills3 that we need. right now we don't need a lot of pele with low skills and low wage rates. they are jus not necessary. john: i'm going to tallater in the show about age one be visas which is for skilled workers. you called them fraudulent. >> theyre. john: h1 be vas were originally designed for the person that has unique underlying -- unique qualifications nowhere else in the world can we find that person. that it -- that is what it was designed for. john: nowhere else in the world? >> yes. i'm sorry. no one in the united state defined person with that

qualification. what it has turned into unfortunately, again, a lot of the oddest that you referred to earlier have identified the problem. they're now being used to bring people in who have skills but will work for les than people who are presently employed in the united states. john: people in america are just as skilled and could take the people from india, the computer engineers are not better. >> in the of the institutions of higher education. are you really not turning out anybody that has these particular skills? it will tell you all the time thre, but they are in direct up -- competition. john: a lot of the graauate students are from china and india. they are skilled, but they're not americans. we bring them over and give them a college education and then put them out. >> that's right.

if we need a particular skill immigration policy should reflect that. >> of demand. let them work. john: the outside of the economy. thank you. coming up, the debate on whether immigration is given a bad for america. more on that. and re on social networking.

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♪ john: feeling one of these? cleaning our studio floor. the company that made it was started by an immigrant, one of thousands. we allowed some skilled entrepreneurs in. and that is why we need to let more foreigners into the u.s. the consumer electronics sociation. so, your group runs this massive @%ow in las vegas were all of these tech entrepreneurs show off this stuff. you can really see the emigrant? >> absolutely. 3,000 companies that are extending to 150,000 people from around the world. many are pursuing the american

dream. they havan idea and now they can get funding to partnerships, retail and media coverage. john: they come here because they want to network in silicon valley and stuff happens. >> absolutely. i go around the world and every one step the like america because we're the best in the world. detracted best and brightest. every country should have a strategy nd immigration. we lost ours. we set up our borders, and it's hurting as. john: what do you mean we shot of our borders? >> we are discouraging people from coming here. very difficult. when they become students they get their pcs and we keep them out. is a crime. john: kicking them out as the weird part. we pay for their education. help them pay for it. and then i know we have these h1b visas where we let high-skilled people and, 85,000 year. >> we need more because that

allocation buildup in a few days. john: a few days. >>f you days. in the long run is a specialized jobs that cannot be filled by americans which is why companies are looking for thousands of people which is why they go invest overseas between the tax laws and the immigration laws. forcing our best companies higher overseas. john: we have american engineers to could do these jobs. >> we have some, but not all engineers and software people of the same. this is like the deficit in the nba and high-school basketball. america is a land where exhibitionism stands out. we want the best and brightest. we want top from around the world. the rest of the world use to come here. australia, canada, new zealand, europe, they're all saying we will go after the best and brightest. $7 billion per year to research and amerin universities. a lot of that is done by foreign students in science, technology, engineering, math.

jimmy kick them out when ty get a ph.d. john: on that note, give us some of these. these quotas limit the number. so compl, so much so that canada is paying for billboards like this one. have a h1b problems? pivot to canada. the immigration, even went to california jury chris meyer workers. >> they need immigration lawyers to figure out how to keep their status will they're trying to start a business and create jobs we give you a green card to take a few months to process that. john: something called the start of the sow with the applint, 200,000 from a canadian venture-capital list. 75,000 from a canadian angel investor group. if he can speak french or english you can go to canada. >> these are immigrants better job creators. that is an immortant thing to remember. we are the most heterogeneous company in the boroughs, our diversity, different points of

view that give us that edge. compared to asian countries were everyone agrees. they lack innovation. the chinese have a goal. but they are not -- that is part of their plan. that is what they're trying to do, and it is something which does not make any sense because what it really takes is a culture which is why there are over 200. john: an argument? >> i tell you, 200,000 chinese students increasingly tender ages because they don't know how to teach kids. we as their kids, they start. john: in america. right. in chinese they dour culture is right and no laws are wrong. john: 200,000 from venture-capital is, 75 from an angel. >> easier to get venture-capital probably a policy where you don't want people coming year. it requires a significant investment. john: and it is harder now than they used to be for an immigrant to start a business.

>> charter because so many people want to. we made it much more difficult. we don't treat people as well as they used to. we have competition and we have higher corporate taxes. a lot of things are working against this in the long term and we have to cnge as a country of one to succeed because other countries now are doing will we're doing. we are not getting the best and brightest. i have seen harvard ph.d. to tears in their eyes being kicked out of the country. they want to stay here and hire people and get jobs and start. john: thank you. gary shapiro. you can learn more about what he says from this book, the come back, how innovation will restore the american dam. i sure hope the american dream is still the and does not need total restoring, what wall might to avoid america's bureaucracy and immigration restrictions might be to start eat your own country right off of america's

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♪ john: my last guest complains it is too hard for skilled immigrants to illegally work here. so if politicians won't allow engineers and physicists the here is another approach, start your own business. 12 miles off the coast of california outside the reach of american immigration control. that is actually the plan of a group called bluesy, founders are max marty and dario. so what are you going to do? >> we are creating a community 12 miles off the coast of the san francisco bay area to allow entrepreneurs from all around the world to come there, live and work on their start-ups, brand new rly stage companies. john: on a cruise ship.

>> is on a cruise ship that will be essentially stationery 12 miles off the coast. john: off the coast of san francisco because that is where the yacht to printers want to be >> this is the pla where silicon valley is, san francisco bay. this is one o the best locations anywhere in the world to start and grow businesses in the high-te sector especially. so this is the mecca for entrepreneurs, and many have hard time coming to this awesome ace that silicon valley is because of the restrictions that the place -- face. they're entrepreneurs of one to create jobs and paradoxically they have hard time coming in. john: 12 miles off the coast you're free to do what you want independent of the government? >> you are outside -- legal the outside of the u.s. regulatory regi to mouse out of the federal government, things like the sec, regulations, things like that. john: lots of companies have

expressed interest. >> more than 414 companies expressed -- expect interest. so the demand is clearly not a problem because so many companies are frustrated with their current regulatory regime that they're faced with the. john: and people are already giving you money? what would cost? >> you have to rent thcruise ship, paper things that the crew on board, moving provisions back-and-forth. it's a pretty big operation that will cost about 27 million to be dealt and certain operatis. so far we have raised a small seed fd and a silicon valley, of 400,000 have another 9 million reserved for investors in silicon valley, looking for the remaining 18. and we are looking for the remaining 18 sets get this is a fox news special

report. >> good afternoon from the fox news world headquarters in new york. hello, everyone, i am rick leventhal. breaking news out of egypt where the constitution has been suspended, the military has taken over the government. dramatic pictures from tahrir square in cairo where millions of people have taken to the streets. a deadline set for a.m. today for the president morsi to step aside. since then we have seen millions in the streets over t past couple of days protesting the egyptiapresident. morsi's backers in the muslim brotherhood say they will not give in even if the president is forced out by the litary. at least killed in violent clashes in egypt,t least 39 killed since sunday. so far at least seven cabinet ministers have reed down n wash state department continues to say it is not taken sides. as you can see people celebrating in the streets of

cairo. secretary of defense chuck hagel we're fiing out today did call the egyptian army chief yesterday and spoke with his last week as well. we're told secretary hagel urged the military to respect the democratic process and avoid violence what we are hearing so far from the scene, it is not violent, but instead a celebratory mood and spokesman geoe little says i think you can understand the sensitivity of this situation and that's in essence the bottom line. this is the second time in the past couple years the army appears to be positioned to remove the country's leader and this time ousting a democratically elected president, the first in egypt's history making this move potentially more explosive. we're now seeing large crowds in the streets of tahrir square and in the streets of cairo in egypt where president morsi has reportedly been removed from

power by the military, the military now saying it will in fact hold more elections in the future and it says it is spending the constitution and appointing the head of the constitutional court as an interim, head of state, th military leader says that he is calling for presidential and parliamentary elections and a panel to review the constitution and a national reconciliation committee that would include youth movements. of course the youth have in many ways driven this latest puush t remove morsi from power. again what, we have now is a very dramatic situation in egypt, the president has been removed from power, the military is now in control. i am rick leventhal in new york. follow this story live on fox news channel and of course updates on your local fox.

♪ john: before we return to the debate over immigration, let's celebrate the success story. 40 percent of america's biggest companies were founded by immigrants or their children.

apple, budweiser, colgate, ibm, mcdonald's. in the high-tech field it is 60%. well, a new cpany may be the next monster success. i don't know, but she is already earning millions commanding a magazine called one of america's coolest young entrepreneurs. >> i don't know why one caught but i believe that i work hard and. i like making things happen. john: your company is this and marketing group. you advise companies. >> the marketing, full-service marketing firm. john: and you went to school. you came here when you were a years old. >> nine years old. john: nine years old. your father drove a cab and your mom or to attract any shop. >> my parents left very -- a very successful family business beckham.

it worked very hard. i went from having lots of family surrounding me and being gutted on to being a latchkey kid. i was responsible for my and your sister. i had to make sure she was fed, save, got off from school locate . my parents worked full-time. so whenever, as long as she was okay. that's it. john: issue alive? >> successful, driving, so i did something right. -ohn: and were you aware of your parents wook ethic as a kid? there were may be different from the pents and the other kids in the school. >> definitely. my parents worked much harder than some of the parents. there would wake up early, come on leaded night. they were grateful to be here that they were willing to work hard, and i never saw them complain. my dad worked ridiculously long hours, but i never saw him say

this is too tough. he just kind of embrace of that was the meaning of life. john: how are you different from our american beers? @% the general sense of enttilement that my generation often gets blamed goods. a little different than that because i saw what i didn't ve. compared to what i do have. a much more grateful thing that some of my peers in that it not expect anything to be handed to me. errant when the recession hit riyadh graduated and there were no jobs in the market. certainly my industry did not exist. it took me sometime, but i went out there and started my own thing. i ave a lot of peers who graduated with me here still don't have jobs who are living with their parents. john: theyent to companies in return down. you, instead, started your own thing. you tried. went to companies and said, expand this thing called twitter. they said --

>> they said you're crazy. this is social media is a fad. it did not get. very early. so we decided you really ddn't have much to lose. and as some of parents in skynyrd facile nothing and built something substantial. i knew it could be done. john: 30 people working for you. americans. >> yes. john: a book, the zen of social media marketing. >> that's right. hn: zen about the constant tweeting. >> is out to work with social media. so the essences people want have conversations. they're looking r quality formation. they're looking for customer service. looking to connect. if you wor with that rather than against it with -- which is the traditional way to market. draw message out there. instead, if you really work with sociallmedia, kind of look at why these tools are created and go with the flow, it's a much more is in like experience. john: good luck.

have you become a billion dollar company. >> thank you. john: thank you. next, people like curt, emigrants, steal our jobs. several ad campaign say that they do. >> mass emigration

♪ john: polls show most americans aren't -- thankrrogance take away american jobs and then some cases they do. and we see ads like this. >> and other american has lost his job. another breadwinner going home with the bad news. last year to a half milli erica's lost jobs. high-tech construction and auto workers. with millions of jobless, our government is still bringing in a million have borne workers a year to take american jobs. john: that sounds terrible, and it is just intuitive. that means there are fewer jobs left for americans. and it really bothers these people who did found standing in line and an unemployment office >> is going to make it worse than it already is. >> i'm about making it over your

first before we take care of someone else. john: interviewing as people for a documentary he has made called they come to america. dennis says too much immigration harms american. studying immigration at the cato institute and said that prevailing wisdom is crazy. the more immigration the better. why? it is logical that they're take on america's jobs. >> not a fixed number of jobs in the economy. the more people that we have come to an area, attracted to an area for job opportunities. was there are they create jobs by being consumerist among being entrepreneurs, having different skills than americans. they work together for aricans and the job market. what we see an alarmingly, and minister of american history, they come when there are jobs, don'tt there aren't . john: they create jobs. shaking your head and leaning

ay from them. you will see. those people are not actors. and there are 20, maybe 30 million more people like them to grab my hand and say please tossup what you are doing because i cannot judge job because they're being given to people with temporary visas. not once did you mention the unemployment rate in this country. americans are hurting, john. they're hurting. people re taking their jobs. >> but are they hurting because of immigration? we into the people waiting in the unemployment line. there are no jobs of there. john: we even -- hear me out. we went around and found within two hours, within a few blocks of this on a point of this 40 jobs, 28 for beginners. i think the emigrants try harder >> try harder at what?

wrote the hideout think he crossed the rio grande. you watch my films and see hundreds of guy standing in the corn waiting to get picked up to build their roofs or t put in windows were to paint the home. meanwhile, good for them. well, the last time i checked a lot of americans, construction workers, who want to do those jobs. >> the last line of argument only makes sense if you think people are a liability in an asset. every single point he made could be made against having more americans. this man, and i don't begrudge him, but he is part of the think tank. we have enough thinkers. if i had it taken away call it do tank. i am out there doing. i am meeting with these people. i am going down to the border. if you saw what i saw coming acrosshe border, little segment the you had the frrnt was nice. it was cute, but that is our people are coming. i have seen men with machine

guns crossing over into the united states o america with 60 people at a clip. @% and see a guy from the middle east. i find science. i could give you the pictures off. signs written in chinese. >> every argument he is making an argument for increasing legal immigration in allooin people to come in through the legal system so they can get back projects and get on welfare. >> that's not true. >> itudied. >> you can study all you want. there's a difference. >> you don't know what you're talking about? oh, i don't? okay. i have had businesses, many of them. don't want to here about americans will work hard. >> first of all, let me finish this point. very important. jo: finish your point. >> and not against immigration. i love immigration. i hire people through vises. but they're is a difference.

we are taking into many people right now, towing americans under the bus. john: the same as saying i'm against the people being born. it is an anti person argument. >> it is not an antierson argument. >> having peoole come. he's making it an anti welfare argument. it's great if he made an anti-immigrant argument, but every argument he is using his one is the welfare state, ani am in favor. we like reality in data. agassi's 42% less. >> then make the same arguments you did. [inaudible conversations] >> you need to know mor about your history. john:oo much at the same time.

in the 20's people said the irish were drunks. the italians were stupid. jews were obnoxious. we have old ads, no irish need apply. >> what's the point? >> people have always said these immigrants are going to take welfare. >> pointed out irish and italian. i have not pointed out and that the city since i have been sitting here. john: there has always been an anti-immigrant attitudes. >> she works for an organization where people donate money, lots and lots of money. a very rich peoe. but i and a stand that americans right now are hurting. they are hurting because they caot find jobs. i'm not saying stop all immigration. and sank in a slowdown. catch our breath, get americans baak to work. let's make sure that george kane does not have to save you from a building.

>> one of the main arguments made by the founders against king george is that he and the illegal immigration to the country. americans founders sought emigration as a promise that anyone could come here. john: holding the declaration of independence. you n get them freed. thank you. with that in mind i should say that i would not be here today. today's immigration laws are in effect when my parents came here. that is next. ♪ with the spark miles card from capital one, bjorn earns unlimid rewas for his small business take theseags to room 12 please. [ garth ] bjors small busiss earns double miles on every purchase every day. produce delivery. [ bjorn ] just put it on my spark card. [ garth why settle for less? ahh, oh! [ garth ] great businesses deserve limited reward here's your wake up call. [ male announcer ] get the spark business card from capital one and earn unlimited rewards. choose double miles or 2% cash back on every purchase every day. what's in your wallet?

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♪ john: i sure hope that congress is new emigration proposal will do some good because whenever you think the rules should be, it is not good for america when millions of people live here ii secret. thateans they don't report crimes to police, often don't pay taxes. the neighborhoods where lots of people have no papers, it's easier for criminals to hide their let's bring the illegals out of the shadows. in saying that, though, i contradict one of my heroes, the eat economist, milton friedman who once said of mexican immigration, it is better if it is illegal because as long as it is illlgal for people to come, they don't qualify for welfare and social security. they migrate to jobs which raises a contradiction that we libertarians face. i believe in open borders when products and ideas and people are free to move every where.

the whole world benefits. during america's first hundred years open immigration helped make america rich. now american is a welfare state. some people do come here just a free love which is a big problem 7 billion people on earth and most of very poor. in some emigrants want to kill us which is a bigger problem. we need rules, and border control. but policing illegal immigration would be much easier if we did not have so many laws and such restrictive laws. if ten or 12 million people are here illegally, how could authorities possibly focus on the ones we should worry about? let's lighten up on the rules, he's the immigration quotas. my father was an immigrant to came here from germann because he anted to work and did work. he eventually built a tell-all factory that employs 100 people making tells like these. he was good for america.

odds are he would not be able to come here today. the rules are much more complex and difficult. people say foreigners should just get in line and come here legally, but that line is brutal reason magazine cartoon tries to illustrated. my father only had to pass a literacy ttst. now a computer programmer from india will have to wait an average 11 years to get a visa. for others the rules are even more complex and the wait longer. this website asks you questions to determine if your answers would be allowed to america today. i answer them from my father and learned there is no pass for people like him, except the lottery whe the odds are really bad. no wonder so many people sneak into america. but creating a blackkmarket in people makes problems worse. people want to come here to work. we ought to let them.3 immigrants are people with the ambition to my guts to leave their homes, to pursue the

american dream. there are special people, and we should let most of them in. that is our show. thank u for watching. ♪ >> we are a nation at risk. and the threat may not be what you expect. thanks for joining us. i'm connell mcshane. reporting from new york. the head of national intelligence said earlier this year that cyber attacks are the leading threat to national security. >> it is importance and reach as a global threat can not be overstated. >> few understand t sheer capability hackers have in disrupting our nation impact a major attack would have on as we go in our daily lives. in the next hour we'll look at some of those threats and we'll look forward to come up with solutions. here to helps do that is mike baker,