thanks to both a fewncncncncncnu tomorrow, thank you. >> why? political lder grab power that power turns many into try rants. they raise taxes to pay for war. and increase regulation

john: we had to free our minds to get these concepts. but ono tonight's topic. is the united states abouto fall as rome did? it is a barbarian city. is this our future? first we hear from a conservative, a historian,nd a libertarian. we have some libertarians leading. this historian, carl richard, and matt kibbe fights the government. matt, are we becoming rome? >> i think that we are. i think that the parallels are quite ominous. the expansionf foreign policy, the arrogance of executive power

taking over our country. but i do think we have a chance to stop it. >> i believe that their similarities with the fall of rome and the republic they are in engagement of political leaders and so on. i see somef that. john: corruption, etc.? >> it is sort of under the table corruption. but it dsn't bother me as ch as the over things. for instance, the roman constitution had a to permit limited to one year and people just kept voting for tis unconstitutional leader. john: now we have congress passing laws that haven't read. >> that's right, we had presidents of both parties saying that i am not for certain

about these aws. taking property, selling it to someone else, and yet you can always find parallels. but the fact that we are meeting come i think it shows the antidote is coming about. we, the people, we have not gone the way that the romans did and they were not passive. and they may try to feed the us to the lions, but we believe in free enterprise. we are going to face the lions. [cheers] [applause] [cheer [applause] johnthat is a hapy thought. i wish that i were as optimistic

as you are. but i fear that we are rome. how ny of you think that we are going down the tube how many think that we are in deep trouble? and h many think that we will turn it arou? they can't both be true. but again, y are not in the audience. because your libertarians, right? [laughr] john: so walking arund here people investing in gold, as a this and hat patronizing dead austrian communists.

[laughter] john: you have to understand why we get a reputation as wrong and different. is this unfair? is this fair? >> no. john: come on, isn't is mostly badly dressed men? [laughter] john: it's people who care about numbers, less about how they look the epitome of it. is this unfair? that they look like geeks? >> well, you're sounding like my opponents. >> you could describe our forefathers in the sme way and

you of all people should kw which should look at the substance. [cheers] [applause] john: this is the optimism that makes america possible. when i look at your sideburns, and i think people would say that this is not a normal guy. [laughter] >> definitely guilty as charged. we are different because we have the looks. [laughter] [cheers] [alause] [laughter] [applause]

>> that but social awkwardness is not a sin in defense of liberty. john: i am socially awkward as well. i overcome it if i have to. but what is it about many of the people who like to analyze the opposite? is a personality type? >> economists would argue that everything we do when we fight for freedom and show up at rallies, when we care about the futu of our country, economists will say that is irrational. the we happen to think t is the best thing to do because we care not only about our country, but her future, our kids future, that is not normal in this country. that is what we have to face. >> it is part of our culturend part of our etrepreneurs.

that is what freedom is about. hope to do it better next time. john: well, we should talk about the pepective of the comparing america to rome. what do you think? >> they ve i dbt and high valuation of currency. >> the so-alled silver coin is only 2% silver. that is how they devalued it.

charles: john: coming up, gladiators devued currency. otherwise, america is just too much like rome. [cheers] [applause] [cheers]

john: welcome back to freedom fest. now, the welfare state. i didn't know that, but i came to this and the two people who educated me include chales murray, an author about the destructiveness of welfa. and there he i reread from the foundation for economic education. larry, i learned from you that this begin about halfway through the roman epire. >> the government gave away the subsidized treatment half-price. but the problem is they couldn't stop it there and later there was a man who ran for the offi of the tribunal for the masses.

and it was downhill from there. they gradually give stuff away with a steady increase. >> including with other staples of the roman diet. john: people wod show up in this way? >> yes, they had a tt and they got away with it so that anyone could fill up and get thisfree stuff. >> and they decided that you had to be edited by the state. >> well, not verybody, but they started public schools? >> well, it was much later. largely with homeschooling. in the first public had was about 250 bc and they were not funded by the government. john: and the geeks actually

mocked him for being backwards about that? >> yes, of course they did last anywhere near as long. >> you have educated us about welfare and the handouts. do you see parallels with rom >> yes, if you take a look at roman society that started to dictate, it is not just because of theewelfare state and the people on the bottom, it is also cause the people on the top who isolated lives from the rest. i find parallels in the united stes versus rome very interesting. >> 's. john: we have a lot of unintended consequences. we just get rid of it? you're pretty hard-core, i assume. should america get rid of all handouts? [cheers]

[applause] john: what would happen the first time somebody did this? they say charity. charles murray, wha is your answer? >> well, i think in fact if we got rid of the entire welfare state, that the ability of the wealthy society to deal with the problems would work. i don't think it is within the realm of possibility for an advanced society with as much wealth to ever do that politically. i think that libertarians will have to rike a grand compromise. in affecting the we will give you a big spending if you will

give us freedom from interference. i would say use of guaranteed basiincome for everyone under 21 yars old and known bank aount, and let people take their lives back into theiown hands. they will have the wherewithal that they can deal with this and if they do not do it, they will have to talk with friends and area neighbors and churches and in the community and they want to make their case. i think that is the better way to go. john: you wrote a book about this. it is alled "in our hands." his better book is "in pursuit

of happiness and better government." so you're telling me that the social workers, "the new york times" reporter will go on nd say that you're going to let is woman's children starve? it's not their fault and we have a whole new program. >> here's what you're going to have. you're going to have someone who spends it up in the first two weeks and then they'd are going to say that gee, we don't have any money. you know he has to go to the people the people and say tat i really need help a then saying that there and let you down. we willntroduce once again the kinds of human connections that are theonly way to this. >> united's defense never let people die on the streets.

now we have bureaucrats that cannot make the distinction between someone who needs a kick in the pants and someone who needs a pat n the back. we will put these in the back of human relationships, whereby you can apply this stigma come all the rest which can make the problems solvable. john: there were these mutual aid societies everywhere. >> it is not the business of the government.

>> this was the case in most of roman history, everybody could line up to tese things which contributed to the ultimate bankruptcy. john: look at how the poverty line drops but then the wine was just as sharp. people were lifting themselves out of poverty. government kept improving and then stopped. >> the great untold stories ttat there was a miracle at the end of world war ii in the early 1960s. it has kept them about 40% below the poverty line to about 20%. it continues to go down for a couple of years and it flatens

out. >> we change the rules of the game that made i profitable for low income people, and the it seed like you know, it rked for a while and then we reazed it didn't. the politicians pay the fare and th is exactly what has happened. >> those who did not

john: welcome back to this special edition of stossel. we are in las vegas for "freedom fest." most people here are libertarians and we wa to shrink goverent. we don't ke taxes. we need national defense and pollution control rules. there are some things that most of us say government must do. i see why. it is tough. our taxes always seem to go up. grover norquist, who is head of americans for tax reform persuaded politicians never raise taxes.

and steve moore is with us from "the wall street journal." so rome had high tax rates? not always. efforts were about 400 years they had no real direct internal taxes. because they looted their neighbors. john: we are not advocating that. [ughter] >> even that wasn't enough. so hey had dramatically higher taxes. taxes started with tariffs. constantine had the first one. property taxes, people wee actually abanding their property.

things got towardshe end, very rough and it's a part of why things did not work. >> one penaltyof being sold ad slavery. >> or killed. >> that is what they do and the modern-day irs. the only way they would get it was to sell into slavery to get currency. john: by 1% was e highest income tax. >> over is exactly ight. they kept collecting more and more money in the outlying areas and there wassa massive revolt. >> that is happening in america today. people are sick and tired of seeing their tax dollars in

washington. that is one of the reasons that is the great thing about america. the federal government did not create this with the state. >> reaction that they had to collecting the taxes was tax farmers. it was so bad that in one revolt -- john: we do not advocate this on the show. >> it was a 40 year war. but it was clearly a srious tax revolt. >> to your point, when you asked me what 1% was, when we created the federal income tax bak in 1915, the top income tax rate

went to 7%. within 10 years they went from 7% to 70% that is why i have always believed that steve forbes had it right. we ought to go back with all the deductions and loopholes and make it as simple as possible. but don't create all of these special interest groups. >> the people most opposed to the flat tax, it is people who are against it d probably from washington. the bricks inloon were paying 20%. it is expensive. i like to percent rather than 18%. [applause] john: to be clear, we are at 40%

for state and local. >> that is right, we function fairly well beyond that. the reason the british attacks in 20% is because they are running an empire the one coming up, when government can't raise taxes anymore. they find other ways, like devaluing the curency. but it didn't work out so well for rome. that is coming up next

john: welcome back to the freedom fest conference. the world's biggest gathering of people even many politicians

are made mad by libertarians. politicians have found sneaky ways to do spending. roman emperors molests over and coins, and that cost money. a shel of wheat that cost the roman dollars cost $120,000. then powell and jeffrey tucker join the currency debate thing that we better be ccreful that the american dollar is already going down. what do youthink? >> i fear th inflation ii low. >> are you kidding me? grandmothers are rolling over in their graves right now. any young person has heard someone say i remember when not cost a nickel.

the currency has lost its value. it takes $23 to buy today what 1 dollar could back in 1913. john: and had to go all the way back, paul krugman would tell you that inflation is 2%. but this isn't a big mystery. they started paying interest on the extra reserves. if that actually gets went out, then wwill see higher prices. >> it is a serious issue. you can get a return on your money anymore for savings. that is precisely what we are discouraging. john: let's go back to the rome parallel. they traded and they prosped

and they did what most politicians do. >> he empire kept expanding and eventuay run 180 day ahead the maximum extent of the empire so over time this was the downfall of rome. a bigovernment destroying rome. the barbarians came as the government was collapsing over its own weight. joh with the next emperor, this is 85% and all the way down >> it ended up being 15 thousands.

>> the had this kind of cartel arrangement and we see the quality diminish over 100 years. john: a lot of people get worked up because ey say by and large america is doing pretty well. >> people thoght the real estate market are doing pretty well. especially with a government that refuses to fund itself. soas long as the fed is there with its unlimited credit card to always pay for everything, there is no default or.

when inflation comes, then what will the government do? roni issued wage and price controls. >> the united states government has ar redundant. a decade of high inflation in the 1970s and price control under nixon. nixon was kind of a softy compared to the roman emperors. he made it punishable by death. the products not coming together. john: and they would let you change jobs either. constantine said anyone who violates this may bebound with chains and reduced to eight servitude condition.

some people are eager to turn a profit even on blessings from the gods. it urges us to set a limit. >> i hate when peop use greed to explain something. it is constant and always there. it doesn't work like that. john: one solution some people say what the government playing with the currency. it didn't really work. the problem is for the libertarian audience, how many of you own gold? either actual gd investment. just about everybody.

>> we uldn't have the government involved at all. gold has fallen in some of the people lost a lot of money. maybe this is advice to. >> it is two sparate things here along with speculation. it doesn't mean that you are recommending this as an investment. >> it entirely depends on what the expectations of the future. everyone else as a standard. john: what about big coins? >> it was one in a long

succession. john: and equates the use those of you that don't know, an internet form of currency that is limiting protection against devaluing dollars. >> it is a currency for the digital age. >> the most plausible things will they allow me to extend of anyone in the world in central africa even if you don't have the ability to exchange the ney. no, , that won't hppen. joh: on that note, thank you th. coming up, roman emperors spent

big bucks on stadiums like the coliseum, sometimes fighting gladder aiders and sometimes fighting animals. there are amican equivalents to that as well.

john: welcome back to "freedom fest." the question are we rome? being on the edge of collapse. trying to keep people happy, it offers distractions and bribes. one fellow calld it cheerier races or gladiators fighting too the death. now, america doesn't allow that yet. but jc bradbury says that sometimes it takes the form of sports stadiums. >> well, it's like we need people to collect teams together to keep us happy.

but we are all going to be richer. john: and say that they pay for themselves, but they don't. >> time after time they said that they would get revenue and it didn't happen. >> i thnk the thing that it has been studied so much. john: economist like you have explained it. th he eight home games a year. >> that is not a positive comment. that is saying thathey are being placated. >> i think that sports are popular anything, why don't i go

ahead and suppo this. john: let's go back to the rome parallel. our stadiums paled to what romans did. were they keeping the people pacified because they were getting ticked off? >> it wasn't because they were ticked off, but some form of entertainment was used to distract us. i like football, really going to focus on that. i'm not going to focus on the schools are the other things that may be going on. but itis certainly something that individuals can relate to. it's a positive thing for our community and that is why it is so popular with politicians spew and most gladiators were slaves, prisoners of war. 90% of them suived the fight because it would be expensive to the owner of this wave if they

were killed. >> yes, but you have to pay the owner so it is somethin that people enjoy and want them to see. so it is sort of a difference in the way that we view this than they were once viewed. john: the arrogance of the emperors and priests. 169 bc. african lions and leopards, elephants were hunt down in a single today show. tigers and crocodiles and drafts and hippopotamuses. the emperor would sometimes kill them himself. only today we have club seats

luxury boxes and the rest. >> but it's definitely t same thing. this morning xtravagant. john: : thank you both so much.

toxic chemicals and carcinogens are leaching into the environment. it's happening right where we live, work and play. everywhere. cigarette butts are toxic waste. let's stop the toxic litter. learn more at rethinkbut.org

john: is america wrong? no, thankfully we are not as bad. in a hundred different ways. our taxes are actually higher than most, but we don't have slaves. we also don't kill people for sports. when we go to war, misguid or not, we do not conquer or plunder. when we win, we usually leave. poor people live better than the emperors there. we hve flush toilets, longer lives, painkillers, air-conditioning. our predents actually leave officevoluntarily. although our current president waste money on extravagant

travel, era was much worse. he never wore the same clothes twice. from all corners of the world, that number could to file them. elagabal said that he made his favorite senator a horse. as depicted here. >> you treat him as your peer. john: even president obama wouldn't do that.

[laughter] [applause] so arrogant as our politicians are, they were at least not emperors who like this tell ortiz and executed a senator's wife who didn't show up. but it matters because umpires do crumble. rome lasted the longest of all of tem. it lasted less than 600 years than the spnish andas did the british. we lasted less tan 300 years. we are doing better than alexander the great. his empire only lasted 300 years. but we have accoplished amazing things. amazg prosperity. we just can't take it for granted because free and prosperous is not the natural state of things and in human history it is rare. we are now starting to look a lot like rome and we ought to

wry about that. that is our show, thank you for coming. we will see you next week. [applause] ience, everyo have a great weekend, thanks. >> hello, everybody. tonight on "the willis report." a dna test to know your medical future also tracking teenagers when they are behind th wheel. how do you do that? and 95 years old, more fit than men have his age. he is here to tell us. we're watching out for you on "the willis report." that and more coming up, buthe top story, the battle is