there's doughnuts in the conference room. automatic discounts e moment you sign up. geefrng everybody. thank you for being with us. attorney general eric holder has had a 24-hour political metamorphos metamorphosis. changing his public focus on the events that led to the acquittal of george zimmerman. his thought journey has led the attorney jenna way from his original accusations of racism aimed at the jury and the entire judicial system. the nation's top law enforcement official this afternoon decided instead to target the so-called stand-your-ground laws and those who exercise their rights under those laws. here's the attorney general just moments ago at the naacp conference in orlando.

just miles from sanford, florida, where zimmerman was acquitted of second-degree murder and manslaughter saturday night. >> separate and apart from the -- it's time to talk about laws that senselessly talk about self-defense and dangerous conflict in our neighborhoods. these laws tried to fix something that was never broken. there has always been a legal defense for using deadly force if and the if is important. if no safe retreat is available. but we must examine laws that take this further by eliminating the common sense and age old requirement that people who feel threatened have a duty to retreat outside their home if they can do so safely. we must confront the underlying attitudes, the mistaken beliefs and the unfortunate stereotypes that serve too often as the

basis for police action and private judgments. >> stereotypes. would the attorney general include stereotypes such as a jury should be deemed racist because they are simply white or a police department, can it be considered racist because they don't bring charges when their investigation determines there's insufficient evidence to do so? stereotypes, mr. attorney general, self-anointed civil rights leader al sharpton again toud vowed to hold a 100-city protest tour. the state of florida will become a battleground of a new -- we stopped at the department of justice to see whether they would be funding and assisting mr. sharpton again as they did last year in funding and organizing demonstrations. the justice department still has not answered our questions. sharpton, for his part, has been surely disappointed by the low turnout for the

demonstrations he called for. cities nationwide reporting gatherings and protests that number in the hundreds, not the thousands or tens of thousands. with small pockets of break away groups in places like los angeles and baltimore, unfortunately resorting to vandalism and in some few cases assault. the attorney general behaving rather badly, the justice department inciting demonstrations and protests while decrying the zimmerman trial result. mr. holder ignored throughout that four children were gunned down and murdered in the president's hometown of chicago during the course of the 20-day zimmerman trial. president obama and his attorney general offered no comment on those also unnecessary deaths. deaths that are every bit as tragic and painful as the death of trayvon martin. in fact, perhaps more so because the president of the united states and his attorney general

chose not to speak of those victims and their families. for more on the obama administration reaction to the zimmerman acquittal, i'm joined now by columnist for the hill and fox news political analyst juan williams and senior writer for the weekly standard, fox news contributor, steven hayes. gentlemen, the attorney general has moved from accusing a jury an the judicial system of racism without reservation yesterday to today focusing on tan your ground laws which may mean he decided self-defense is no longer applicable under the constitution. juan, your thoughts? >> i think stand your ground is really not at issue here, lou. because it was not used by the defense in the zimmerman case. they said it was simply a matter of self-defense. and i can tell you that, i spoke to governor jeb bush who was the governor of florida at the time that stand your ground was put in place.

he said it did not apply to this case. he thought the law was being maligned in in regard. obviously, you have a sense here that he, eric holder now is looking for something that will give him some traction that he can offer up to people who are so upset as evidence that he is taking action in the aftermath of the zimmerman/martin verdict. >> is that really the job of the attorney general to touch the wounds and emotions, no matter how traumatized of a select group of people within our society. is he not the attorney general of all people? should he not in -- should he not be instead of holding the integrity of the judicial system and the integrity of that verdict? >> well, i think -- >> go ahead, steve, sorry. >> no. i hate to say it. but i actually agree with juan. think what happened here in the speech today was eric holder

trying to change the subject. he was trying to take this from a debate that was largely about race. something that he, fueled with his recent comments and make it a debate about stand your ground. he wants to talk about that. the administration is much more comfortable having that debate than they are trying to bring additional charges against george zimmerman, which i think virtually everybody agrees would be almost impossible to win on. to win a case on. i think what he's doing is changing the subject, trying to get people to debate something else and avoiding the difficult decision about whether to bring those charges to push it down the road. >> let me -- the national rifle association has just handed us -- well, actually one of my producers has just handed me the nra statement. they've just put it out. the attorney general says the nra fails to understand that self-defense is not a concept. it's a fundamental human right. to send a message that legitimate self-defense is to

blame is uncon shanable and demonstrates that this administration will exploit tragedies to push their political agenda. chris cox, the executive director of the nra institute for legislative action. your reaction, juan? >> well, i don't know. sometimes we get into these political debates, this mudslinging and you just have to laugh, lou. come on, the nra says somebody else has a political agenda. stand your ground is an extension of self-defense. i think everybody will acknowledge it. it is not the case that anybody is attacking self-defense. in the zimmerman case, there are logical steps that zimmerman could have taken to avoid that confrontati confrontation. everybody acknowledged that. it becomes a matter did he feel threatened and the jury said he did. the prosecution failed to make the case that he was acting with any malice. that's the verdict. and you accept it. for the nra, which is dead set on pursuing its guns in every

corner concealed weapons everywhere agenda, to say somebody else has an agenda, laughable. >> steve, your reaction to the nra statement? >> in a sense, eric holder seems to preempt it in his speech today when he talked about stand your ground and said it was a law that didn't need to be passed basically. we didn't need to have this anyway because you already have the right to self-defense. i think that would be his response to the nra's statement. i'm more sympathetic to the stand your ground laws because i think they've proven effective over the years. >> the idea that the attorney general would stand up and say he wants americans to retreat in the face of threat is bizarre. it is, to me, i can't even begin to understand why this attorney general and this president did not do the gracious, smart and dutiful thing and that is support our judicial system and this verdict. there is also -- there's a

scalding hypocrisy about all this administration has done in the past 48 hours it seems to me. they have -- they know full well that they cannot bring a civil rights action against this young man. they know full well that, as they sought a petition, they and the naacp seeking a petition on bringing civil rights, and is the cynicism of reverend al sharpton to talk about 100-city demonstration. this is the stuff of -- i mean, to me, it is reprehensible conduct. i said that the attorney general is behaving badly. i think it's worse thannthat on the part of this administration. your thoughts, juan? >> i'm saying a men. to me, there's so many of these race hustlersi out there. i think they lead people down the garden path. they ignore the constant carnage in the black community. the constant shootings you referred to the number of

children killed in chicago during the course of this trial. i think that you look at someone like sharpton. i think he's pumping those numbers for his ratings or whatever. yes, there is legitimate concern about injustice. why is it the case that there's a dead child and no acknowledgment of that in terms of the jury's action. fine, i agree. but there's a larger issue here. when you see the hustlers out there, you have to stop and just -- if you say, i think you used the word just a burning scorn that you have, lou, for this kind of behavior. i share it. >> thank you, juan. >> stephen, you're going to get the last word in this. i want to point out one thing. those four murder victims during the course of that zimmerman trial, 20-day period, children, they didn't have a gun in their hand. they weren't standing their ground. and they were defenseless against violence and evil and i hope that the attorney general at least and perhaps the president will acknowledge that reality for the sake of the

people of chicago and those families who lost loved ones. stephen, you get the last word here. >> i wouldn't hold your breath for that. i mean, it's an interesting discussion why i agree with juan much more than i disagree with juan. >> it's a nice moment here tonight to watch. >> it is a nice moment. this is what al sharpton does. he's done this in the past. he's doing it now. he'll do it in the future. he wants attention. he'll get some attention. but ultimately, i don't think what he's doing is -- not only is it not helpful, but it's harmful. >> thank you very much, stephen hayes. juan williams, we appreciate you being with us. much more on the aftermath of the zimmerman not guilty verdict coming up in dobbs law. leading attorneys ashley merchant and arthur adelle a join us. >> edward snowden is still stranded but he holds what he thinks is an insurance policy. fox news national security expert kt mcfarland joins us next.

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in cairo tonight, security forces firing gas into crowds following clashes between pro and anti-morsi forces. this is deputy secretary williams burns. he met with egypt's interim government earlier. he emphasized at that meeting that the united states will not be taking sides in egypt. joining us fox news national security analyst, kt mcfarland. kt, great to have you with us. the egyptian -- the muslim brotherhood, no part of the egyptian meetings with the secretary. >> no. >> is that it for the muslim brotherhood and barack obama? >> well, the muslim brotherhood has waited 80 years for their

moment to take charge in a middle east country. they have a year ago and they totally blew it. they got greedy, started grabbing all aspects of power. they started snuffing out the opposition. most importantly, they ran the economy into the ditch. >> which, by the way x e should point out was already weak. >> was already weak. but now it is in complete free fall to the point where half the people in egypt don't have food. >> are you surprised that arab states, saudi arabia, kuwait, the united arab emirates moved money into egypt to support them? >> here's what's fascinating about the interim government. morsi, the muslim brotherhood guy, the first thing he did in office is he went to tehran, he went to see president ahmadinejad. mortal enemy of them. at that time, we're not sending you more relief aid. the two top guys were close to saudi arabia. general al si si spent time

there as a defense attache. i was fascinated to say the first country that recognized the new interim government was the saudis and the first one to really show up with big money were the saudis. united arab emirates and kuwait. they're trying to get them enough time, buy time for them to get their act together. i don't know that egypt ever can. but at least they now have a chance. >> sky news arabia affiliated with fox reporting that there's an emergency session of the leading muslim brotherhood figures from across the region, including europe. >> right. >> hamas as well. to find out what they can do to reverse the egyptian political direction. what do you make of it, what's the likelihood? >> i think it's an act of desperation. you're always somebody who talks about is the economy stupid, look at the economic statistics. >> i have a vested interest in that viewpoint, i have to admit.

>> too bad you're not running things in the middle east. because the muslim brotherhood failed every time they've taken power. whether in gaza, in egypt. they've driven those economies into the ditch. so their opportunity costs are going to be very high. nobody is going to trust them. it's not to say that the muslim brotherhood, some factions of them will break off and i think could marry up with al qaeda in the sinai peninsula. that's the place i'm watching. whether they -- the violence it could have happen. >> the news just keeps getting better. let's turn to russia and edward snowden and whatever point that he may be headed toward. putin is saying that he is not -- he's ready for mr. snowden to just move on. it sound like they picked the chicken clean and now have better things to do. what do you make of it? >> absolutely. when snowden went to china, they got everything he had. they didn't want him.

they said you can leave. then he gets to russia. they picked him clean as you said. they got everything off the laptop, the thumb drives and probably in his head. it's not just the intelligence information that he was -- snowden was able to give these countries. it's the method by which we gather intelligence. that's often more important. they now know how we go and do our intelligence. finally, what does snowden give putin the opportunity to do, thoroughly humiliate the united states. you have obama saying there are going to be strong repercussions and a few days later, when it was clear we weren't getting him back, oh, well, he's a 28-year-old hacker, he doesn't count. he does count. the facts that the russians have him, they've gotten what they want, he's like used kleenex at this point. >> we just don't know where he's going. but we also don't understand quite what his state is. the u.s. intelligence agencies haven't been able to bring him

to ground. the government itself, the state department, the power of the executive has not been able to bring him through negotiation or any other known action back to the united states. the united states, do you have a sense that we're actually doing something vigorously to bring this person back to capture and to bring this person back? >> i think what we're doing phone calls to countries saying don't you take him and it seems to be having a little effect. i would take a step back and talk about the things you talked about. what's happening in the middle east, russia. we look like a helpless giant and that's the bigger problem. >> kt mcfarland. thank you very much. nothing helpless about kt. up next, more i had ossie. the chalk talk, we'll highlight some of the most, well, annoying, i think we'll be gentle. most annoying.

here next.

♪ ebony and ivory, live together in perfect harmony ♪ >> stevie wonder's 1982 hit

ebony and ivory, a great song, a great message, a great entertainer. but now he's issuing threats regarding the zimmerman verdict and stand your ground. stevie wonder performing in canada on sunday when he said he would never again perform in the state of florida or any state where he finds that a stand-your-ground law exists. i don't get it, stevie. what are you thinking? so we've got no choice but to include him in what teams like a parade of fools on this issue. folks who have come out insisting they know better than the florida jury that spent three weeks listening to the evidence, examining it carefully and deciding in a narrow and reasonable verdict that there was reasonable doubt on the two charges against zimmerman. second degree murder and manslaughter. they acquitted, exonerated him. stevie wonder's free, of course, to boycott anything he wants. but there are a few problems with the singer's reasoning. first, zimmerman's attorneys

didn't mount a stand your ground defense in the case. it had nothing to do with it. by the way, he's in good company. the attorney general himself is confused about the stand-your-ground law and decided today to shift his focus to that law rather than further trying to demonize and vilify the jury and the judicial system that reached a not guilty verdict. secondly, wonder's boycott leaves him with drastically fewer travel choices. we hate to point this out, but florida is only one of 23 states that currently have versions of stand-your-ground laws. so good luck with that. next up in the parade of fools list is singer wyclef jean who said "this to me feels like a new form of modern day lynching if you can shoot a kid and walk away and nothing happens. what kind of signal are you

sending?" first of all referring to lynching is abhorrent and disgusting. it's one of the cheapest of the reflexes available to critics of that verdict. it's hard to discern which is more outrageous. wyclef's latest comments or his failed haiti charity. which allegedly mishandled and misspent some $16 million that should have gone to the victims in haiti. lastly, we've got a rapper that you may not be familiar with and you shouldn't get upset. it's not really a bad thing. a rapper akon born in the united states but raised in senegal. he posted online this statement. "every african-american in the united states needs to move their money, family, knowledge, back to africa where you'll be treated like a royalty you are. you don't deserve this treatment. this is not your country." we know it's a lot to expect intellectual capacity and integrity from celebrities and

entertainers, but when you use your notoriety to incite racial tension, we have to point out what a fool you are. and yes, it is our country. and so maybe you can tell me, why do we have to put up with fools who make comments like that? oh, that's right, because it's our country and it is america. you get to do that sort of thing. but we also get to point out just how annoying those fools can be. we continue in just one moment. big sis calling it quits. janet napolitano leaving an important cabinet post vacant. former homeland security secretary tom ridge reacts here next. my name is mike and i quit sking. chantix... it's non-nicotine pill. i didn't want nicotine to give up nicotine. [ male annouer ] along with support,

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janet napolitano's decision to step down as homeland

security secretary exposing a troubling leadership vacuum at that department, there are now 15 empty slots in 45 of the leadership positions at homeland security. senator john micah says "now is a good time for congress to consider dismantling the monstrous department of homeland security and replacing it with a smaller security focused entity that is realistically capable of connecting the dots of threats posed to our national security." joining us now, the former head of homeland security, former secretary and former governor of the great state of pennsylvania. tom ridge. >> thanks for being here. >> you're the fellow presiding. micah referred to it as a monstrous entity was assembled. what are your reactions first to his statement? >> while i respect the

congressman's public service and he's done great deal of very, very good work, i think he's flat wrong when it comes to the department. it was admittedly a bold aggregation of over 20 different departments, but the real challenge with the department, i believe, has more to do with congress than it does with the department. the secretaries continue to report to almost 100 committees -pand subcommittees. so at the end of the day, lou, there is no smaller group of men and women in either the house or the senate that can continue to work with, communicate with and collaborate to make it the most efficient and effective organization possible. they got to run here, there and everywhere and frankly, nobody wants to give up jurisdictional responsibility. you have everybody running to the hill to protect their own interests and not a look at the entire enterprise. not a good situation. >> he knows where of he speaks when talking about congressional motivation. dhs, as big as it is, a third of

its leadership positions will be vacant by september when she leaves. as secretary, how can a department that large, that vast, that important function? >> i don't think it can possibly function with anything close to what you and i and the rest ofa necessary organization. i disagree with dismantling it. at the end of the day, that does not fall on the secretary's responsibility. that is exclusively the white house. they know that there are have been many vacancies for months. to my knowledge, in talking to people on the hill and elsewhere, very little effort to fill those vacancies. so it's kind of -- it's not even the nonneglect. it's an unconscionable neglect in an agency of government which needs leadership in aal levels. you're spot on. i think it's 14 or 15 you referred to.

they should be filled immediately. i don't think it has to be being tied up with the nuclear option over in the senate. >> governor tom ridge. we thank you or being with us. we appreciate your time and perspective. >> always a pleasure, lou. we're shifting our focus to cyber security. what america is doing to protect our critical assets in cyberspa cyberspace. nina easton joins us. >> george zimmerman, will the obama administration really go after him with civil rights charges? joining us next in don's law, attorneys arthur aidala and ashlee merchant. i ha copd. if you've got it, you know how hard it can be to breathe and man, you kw how that feels. copdncludes emphysema and chronic bronchitis. spiriva is a once-daily inhaled copd maintenance treatment that helps open my obstrted airways for a full 24 hours. you know, spiriva helps me breathe easier.

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returning to the zimmerman case is attorney general holder wades deeper into the controversy, our next guests are here to sort it out from their perspective. for example, is there a foundation for civil rights

charges against an individual, in this case, george zimmerman, a wrongful death suit that can prevail? the criticism of the stand-your-ground laws which had nothing to do with the case. joining us is criminal defense attorney, fox news legal analyst, arthur aidala. ashleigh merchant, a criminal defense attorney. good to have you both here. ashleigh -- >> good to be here. >> civil rights, a civil rights action against an individual. have you ever heard of a proceeding ever happened? >> oh, i've definitely heard of it happening. it's a new law. obama essentially signed into law back in 2009 a change to the civil rights statute, to the federal civil rights statue, pretty much creating his own class of crimes called hate crimes where it used to be the only way you could file a civil rights action when it was a law official, a law enforcement official violating the person's civil rights. but the laws changed in 2009 and now the actions can be brought against any individual essentially. >> but there is a very famous case here in new york, excuse

me, lou, you know well, the crown heights case. the crown heights riots in brooklyn, new york, when all the jewish man hit and killed the young black black boy. only because he was jewish, a black man killed a jewish man and for retaliation. there was evidence that there were words at the scene. kill the jew, kill the jew. that individual who committed homicide, lem rick nelson was found not guilty in the local court and the feds prosecuted him and he did go to jail. that is not the case with george zimmerman. i told geraldo rivera, i'll shave his mustache if the feds bring a charge. >> tell me geraldo took the bet. >> you have to wrestle him to get his mustache off. >> ashleigh, the fbi over the course of the past year conducted interviews, 36 people. there are incidences as you look

at the results of the interviews. it looks like the fbi is actually trying to get a different kind of answer than they got. but the answer they got was there's no hatred, there was no racial bias whatsoever on the part of george zimmerman. why is the attorney general act being like this -- he's referred to it as an ongoing investigation because it's been going on since last year. what is he even talking like that? why isn't he talking about the evidence that his people have accumulated and is now the record? >> well, i think it's political pressure. the unfortunate thing is he's not following their own guidelines. the federal government has guidelines that the u.s. attorney's office is supposed to follow when deciding whether or not to prosecute an individual under this statute. he's not following those. because they specifically say, you cannot prosecute someone if the decision is based on their race. and i can't help but think that this has something to do with the fact that zimmerman's race is different from trayvon martin's race. >> she's right on.

i mean, you hit the nail on the head. there should be more personal responsibility. excuse me. this 99-degree weather is in my throat. there should be. the attorney general should step up and say, listen, i know emotionally we want an answer. when young people get killed in a car accident, that's an accident. we want an answer. that's human nature. we want an answer as to why trayvon martin -- we want somebody held responsible. sometimes nobody is held legally criminally responsible. >> we're going to continue -- go ahead, ashleigh and then we'll take a quick break and come right back with don's law with our attorneys tonight to continue the discussion. go ahead, ashleigh? >> sometimes an accident is just an accident is what i was going to say. >> yes. it is a shame. as you were shaaying, arthur, people want resolution. that verdict is supposed to be the resolution and the chief law enforcement officer in the

country is to support the jury trial, judicial system. it's a shame what we're witnessing i believe right now. we're going to continue the examination of this case and the politics of it, the legal politics of it talking with ashleigh merchant and arthur aidala in just a moment. fortune magazine, nina easton joins us with a revealing look at the man responsible for exposing china's hacking of u.s. companies and our government facilities. stay with us. the bs used double les from tir capital one venture card

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we're back with attorneys arthur aidala and ashleigh merchant. there's a civil lawsuit that -- a wrongful death lawsuit if it

proceeds. what are the odds -- i think we should point something out. i don't think many people realize that trayvon martin's family has already received a wrongful death suit settlement believed to be over $1 million, a claim against the homeowner's association as a result. where do we go from here, arthur? with a wrongful death? >> i actually think the likelihood might be higher than zimmerman -- than the martin family suing somebody. >> right. >> that's if these entities were in control of themselves. lou, as you can see, this case has taken on a life of its own. and everyone -- all these advisers, everyone whispering in their ear, everyone giving them advice. >> big money at stake. >> i'm sure the jurors have people whispering in their ear. we'll get you people magazine. that's unfortunate. the bottom line is trayvon martin is not here and nobody should be making money off of that in my opinion. >> one question, ashleigh.

does a wrongful death suit brought by the martin family against zimmerman, does it succeed? >> it doesn't make sense. whether or not it succeeds, it seems pointless. zimmerman doesn't have any money pr assets. to keep this litigation ongoing doesn't make a whole lot of sense when they've received a settlement from the hoa. it's a much lower standard of proof in civil court than in criminal court. just because there wasn't enough evidence to overcome reasonable doubt in criminal court doesn't mean they won't overcome the standard in civil right. which is essentially more likely than not. they have to show that it was more likely than not that he did actually -- >> the o.j. simpson case. he's acquitted, found liable. you're not guilty in civil court. you're liable in civil court. >> right. exactly. whether or not you can collect -- >> go ahead, ashleigh. >> whether or not you can collect on that judgment is a

whole another story. >> aside from that, there's a far more powerful, at least to me, inference from this verdict than george zimmerman is exonerated. that he's not guilty. in the o.j. simpson trial, there was -- it seemed to me not to be a -- i don't know. it didn't have the same kind of influence or power as this one did. >> the o.j. simpson trial, again, i was -- was i in law school? it was a long time ago. there was some overwhelming evidence -- i was in the d.a.'s office. there was some overwhelming evidence. i remember where i was. >> you've had such a long career. >> we all went into the chief assistant's office to watch that verdict. it was pretty heavv. there was a lot about finding him gaeltd and the fact -- this is what annoys me most about the o.j. simpson case. how fast that jury came back. like four hours. that much responsibility, take your time.

take a nap. think about it. say a prayer before you reach a verdict. >> right. which was what was nice about this jury. they really did take their time. so it's unfortunate they're getting such backlash now. >> the backlash is almost -- it is predictable. it is expected. and each one of those -- the jurors have, it seems to me as one juror in particular has revealed their thinking, their approach. i mean, she's a very bright woman, a conscientious person. it's clear. i think that the state of florida was well-served by the intelligence, the diligence of this jury. >> their concentration from the jury experts, from the producers of fox who were in the courtroom who observed them, they were taking notes, they were at the edge of their seats. there was no nodding off. they asked for the exhibit list. they did ask for some legal charges. even though they never got them, they reached a verdict beforehand.

lou, if you sit down, the facts you put them together with the law, this is a not guilty verdict. >> let me ask you thiss-- >> they did the right thing. >> the stand your ground approach by the attorney general, how far does that go? the attorney general can't do anything about state laws. he can sue, i guess. is he simply pandering to a base? is that all it's about, ashleigh? >> it's really political pressure. i think it's political pressure to put on the states that still have the stand-your-ground law to amend their law. they cannot force these states, individual states have the riggt to have these laws if they want them. florida wants this law. it doesn't look like it's going anywhere. he's trying to assert -- >> the nra made it clear, they're going to resist the attorney general's statements and -- his advocacy on removing

stand your ground. it looks like he's picked another loser. >> unfortunately, the zimmerman verdict is not the end of this. it may just be the beginning of the ball is just starting to roll. i hope it doesn't roll out of control with this knee jerk reactions. all these people making statements who didn't see one minute of one day of the trial and they're tweeting this nonsense. >> i think this pool, they will exhaust themselves over the next week or so. >> sure. >> arthur thank you. ashleigh, thank you very much. we appreciate you both being here. up next, the story of one of this country's top cyber sleuths. you better say thank you for this guy. an inside look at the man who exposed china's systematic hacking of our businesses. what faces in the way of political retaliation. nina easton with the story, next. my mother made the best toffee in the world.

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our next guest recently penned an article about the information security company mandia, it exposed cyber attacks on 141 businesses and organizations by hackers in china. we welcome the senior editor of "fortune" magazine. nina easton. i have to say the story on mandia and his company was terrific. great work. and great work on his part. >> yeah. >> you come away realizing how dependent we are still on great minds working in behalf of this great country. >> that's right. small entrepreneurial mind. i mean, this is a great air

force, former intel officer turned entrepreneur. what's been going on. here's sort of laying of groundwork with what's going on with china. they've been systematically stealing our trade secrets, particularly in the last five years. stealing technology blueprints, recipes, ingredients, stealing -- even when there's deals like m and a deals, they go into computer systems of major companies and law firms and get the memos on those deals so they've got the upper hand. this has been going on for some time. the administration, like administrations before it, has been trying to deal with this through quiet diplomacy. the chinese deny, deny and take offense. but -- and say well, where's the proof. kevin mandia, the ceo of a company, which is a relatively small, $100 million revenue cyber security firm said look, we're going to show you some proof. they showed proof that these

hackers, they're not just out of china. they are part of the chinese military. they are part of the people's liberation army. a unit in shanghai that has systematically attacked over 147 fortune 500 companies and stolen trade secrets and are undermining our economy. >> undermining our economy. the estimates are and they are -- i should stress, these are only estimates. we're talking about intellectual property theft by china, principally by china costing the united states $300 billion a year. 1.2 million jobs estimated to be lost as a result of those cyber attacks on the united states and our intellectual property, whether it be in the public sector or private. how can this be tolerated? >> i mean, china is basically building their economy. not solely but largely on

copycatting. they take our technology and you don't necessarily see the results of the copycat right away. it takes some time. but that's part of the culture and part of the economic culture. part of the really the economic game plan there is to steal technology, to steal trade secrets and to use that to build their industry. by the way, the pentagon since then has come out with a report saying they're stealing our national security secrets. our big weapons designs to build their military. it's not just an economic issue. it's a national security issue. >> and why, again -- first let me ask you this. mandia, is he okay in this? have there been repercussions, reprisals by the chinese? what is his status right now? >> it's inteeesting, the chinese unlike a lot of hackers from other countries, testify r they have a modus operandi or rules

of the road. they typically don't destroy anything. it's not as obvious as that. they have tried to hack into the computer system at mandiant. one investor worries about, down the line, not right now but a reputation al attack on this small company. they try to undermine the credibility oo the company. kevin mandia told me, he knew when he decided to release this report and take on the second biggest economy in the world that we'd had a gigantic target on our backs. i knew that. he believed, that because companies are getting so tired of this going on, the chinese won't do anything to stop it, won't engage in serious dialog with the u.s., he said it's time to do this. >> indeed it is time. thank goodness that he and others and our government are

doing something. obviously a great deal more need to be done. we'll take up that part of the story, nina, if you come back in the next few days. >> i'd love to. important issue. thank you so much. that's it for us tonight. good night from new york. a pa advertisement for starvista entertainment and ti life's music collection. ♪ chances are 'cause i wear a silly grin ♪ there e artists we'll always remember... ♪mona lisa, mona lisa ♪ men have named yo therare beautiful songs, words and memories that will always toh our hearts... ♪ it's impossible ♪ to tell the sun to leave the sky ♪ ♪ it's just impossible this is the music of your life. ♪ she wore blue velvet