greatest thing ever. thanks for joining us. we'll be back tomorrow. sound the alarm on jobs. the unemployment rate rising in 28 states last month. now, new signs it's about to get worse. 74% of small businesses say they are planning to either slash hour reduce hiring or actually fire workers because of the health care law. more proof the law delivers a negative prognosis for a jobs recovery. hi, eveone. i'm brenda buttner, this is "bulls and bears." gary bsmith, tracy burns, tracy and welcome to everybody. okay, john, is the health care law making thjob market sick? >> yes, absolutely.

what the job market wants is certainty. we've got no certainty with this law. they are talking about trying to fix the law. you're talking about fixing something that hast even been implemented. why did you pass something broke to begin with? that's the problem we have. 34 of 50 states have opted out of the state exchanges, 24 of 50 states have said they don't want the medicaid expansion because they simply can't afford it, and small businesses around the country are saying if we get stuck with an extra $5,000 per employee, this eats into our profit margins bad enough we can't afford it, and that is the problem that you have in small businesses right now, america, which creates most of the jobs. >> that's right, that's the point. they are the job creators, the engine of job creation. what does it say that small businesses are not optimistic about their hiring plan or they are firing workers? >> well, first of all, small businesses in the u.s. chamber of commerce crowing about mor regulations and more cops, that's kind of like -- that's kind of like the rooster crowing about the sunrise. i mean, that's sort of a default

setting, but if you look at the study closely, what's fascinating to me is 50% of the businesses are saying, look, we're actually not going to make any changes due to obama care, and if you look particularly at small businesses that are right near that 50-employee mark where you actually have to -- you're mandated to offer the care, the health insurance, 76% of them said we're not actually changing our hiring plans at all. we're just going to go and ride right through that 50-employee mark and live with obama care, but the fact it's an uncomfortable fact and they are going to live with it. >> tracy, i don't think that's true at all. i talk to them every day. th are not changing their plans because they are not going to do anything. they are in like stagnant mode. you make the cost ofsomething more expensive, corporations don't use it, so what we're doing here is making the cost of employment more expensive. corporations are not going to do it. small businesses a not hiring, and what they are hiring we saw in the last jobs report part-timers, a ton of part-time employees out there, and they are not turning themselves into

full-time employees because that's not what businesses want. they don't want to deal with obama care. >> gary b., do you need a survey to tell you that hiring will go down with obama care? what tracy was basically talking about is a tax, isn't it? >> exactly. tracy makes a greatpoint. the logic of which that obama care tax, if you will, will not affect hiring is baffling to me. look, when the government wants you to drink less alcohol, what do they do? they put a tax on it. when thewant you to drive the highways slower, what do they do, put a tax on it via speeding tickets. when they want you to use less gasoline, what do they do? they put a tax on it, and all that works, and that's fine. so now they are putting a taxes on businesses and saying, oh, wait a seco, it's not going to affect behavior, it's baffling to me the logic there. has to affect bevior. in that sim survey 70% of those small businesses via the chamber of cmerce says it was going to negatively impact their hirinin. i think it's going to be 100%.

>> okay. jonas, i'll get to you in a minute but i wa to let stefan respond. >> gy b., love you this. think bigger. decades ago when the government said we nt workplaces to guarantee the safety of their workers i'm sure bosses and business people like us sat around tables like this and complained. they want us to guarantee the safety of our workers, what a pain in the butt. this is just reality. >> but that -- but that affects the company. >> it did affect companies. lots of factories complained when we said, look, you need to -- >> and it cost them jobs! >> and that's just the cost moving on and creating a society at's fair for everybody. >> okay. >> jump in. >> gary b. just brought up an interesting point. the government tax cigarettes, use less of it and everse tax health care. the company can give you a $20,000 heth care plan and

it's a tax-free bonus and we consume more health care that's one of the problems we had in health care before obama care. unfortunately, it's not totally going away so it's not like it's a great system. we overconsume your health care, by the same logic with the negative taxation of the plan. as far as hiring, there could be a benefit here where we goo part-time workers. what's so wrong about a flexible workforce with everyone without a full-time job with hours and benefits? >> what? >> if we had more part-time workers won't we have a lower unemployment rate if they kick people off full-time so they can avoid obama care, they will have to make up for those hours by hiring more temps. >> a battle beten tracy and gary b. i'm ing to let tracy take this one. >> oh, my god. clearly you don't have kids at home. if i didn't have a full-time job with benefits i don't think i can sleep at night. this is not what we want. we want people with full-time work. want people to have job security and go out and spend money in the economy. what if i'm going to do if a

part-timer? i don't know what's next. you might lay me off. >> are you a union boss? >> look, i obama care was working, they wouldn't have pushed off the employer mandate. they wouldn't be talking about pushing off the individual mandate. they even realize that it's a mess. >> jonas, you asked her if she were a union boss. basically the argument is they can't have that many benefits. >> what you want in a workforce is not having to burden an employer with health care pensions, 401(k)s, job security and amount of hours a week. you want a flexible workforce that can you fire at will, the opposite of europe and that's how you get your unemployment down. >> john, jump in here. >> look, i've heard a couple of things that are affling. comparing this to henry frk and the carnegie steel mills and workg guys to 12 hours a day, comparing that to offering free pizza from this administration that's completely apples and oranges and saying it's good you cut people from 40 hours back to 28 because it gives a flexible workforce, no, it increases

poverty in the united states is what it does. this thing is broken. was passed broken and t only way they are selling it right now is saying we'll force these companies,hey make too much money apparently, to give rebates to individual americans. look, it's more free pizza. i guess we're going after apple and google next and forcing them to give back their profits, too. this is insane. >> gary b., what's this going to do to the economy? >> think it has to hurt the economy, just like every other -- you know, stefan talked about environmental regulations and osha and that was a tax. look, it might have made our world better. i'm not going to argue that, but did it hurt the economy? yes, it hurt the economy. those are costs absorbed by companies, by industries, by individuals that they otherwise would not have to occur. we're not talking jonas' pnt where health care was better or worse. we're talking about the marginal cost to the employers. the marginal cost to the employers in most cases goes up.

thats a tax, plain and simple, and that has to affect the company's hiring. >> what if the company pays the fine which is less than they were paying for the health insurance in the first place and kick them on to a state exchange? couldn't that lower the cost. >> that's why i said in most cases, yes. >> if there were state exchanges which is part of the problem, isn't it, john? >> yeah, 34 of 50 states have opted out of the state exchanges. aetna, united health are getting out of places like california because they simply can't make any money and this lie about the fact that you'll keep your insurance, not going to happen. >> brenda. >> go ahead. >> i think we have to point out we just had news this week that new york and a lot of other states are discovering health care premiums will go down thanks to these exchanges. >> new york is a complete anomaly in that. new york is a complete anomaly in that. look at california, it's up 150%. >> that's got to be the last word, guys. thank you. coming up, first it was phone records and e-mails. now worries the government is watching every financial transaction you make.

that's at the bottom of the hour, but up here first, remember this? >> we refuse to throw in the towel and do nhing. we refused to let detroit go bankrupt. >> the white house refused to let detroit go bankrupt then. is it about to do the same now? my mher made the best toffee in the world. it's delicious. so now we've turned her toffee into a biness. my goal was to take an idea and make it happen. i'm janet long and i formed my toffee company through legalzoom.

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keep it right here on the fox channel for all your news, fair and balanced. detroit is busd. motown now the largest u.s. city ever to file for bankruptcy, and already some are calling for a

federal bailout instead. gary b. says no way, no how, huh? >> exactly, brenda. i'm not anti-detroit. i us to live right outside detroit. i think it's a great city which still has great potential, but you have to remember, brenda, this is a city that in the '60s had the highest per capita income in the country. it was living high on the hog, and it deserved it. it was powering the country's industry for the better part of our -- the last 100 years or so, but they lived high on the hog, and they -- and they are paying the ice now. they increased the pensions. they hired this, you know, public workforcethat they found incapable of firing, so now they are paying their due. it's like the child that eats just too much candy. you don't reward it. that's what the government would be doing. saying, okay, you know, your bad behavior, it's okay, we'll give you money, which by the way the united states does not he. >> we've bailed out lots of people, right? bailed out private companies that didt turn out so bad.

should we bail out detroi >> well, ry's analysis is really sharp actually. he's right. the big player here is not -- not the bondholders who should not be bailed out. it's the pensioners, the city detroit hasomething like $12 billion unfunded pensions. they shouldn't be bailed out unless the federal government could come in and say, guess what? we're going to give you a little bit of a bailo, paral bailout, but in exchange we really want you guys to come to the negotiating table. we can't force you guys to give up your pensions but we can make this easy, partily fund that $12 billion and in exchange shift this over to a 401(k) and take a haircut. it has to happen because it would be unconstitutional to bankrupt them and get the pensioners off the hook. that will nowork in michigan. it's against the constitution. >> tracy, what do you think of that idea? >> i think, you know what, we blame 10, 20 years of unions controlling labor, politicians

making just rotten decisions basically ever since the '60s and '70s. it's unfair to even think we should give them a dime. there should be no backstop here. they did this, and we knew this was coming. i mean, this is just honestly a long as i have been reporting, i've been hearing that detroit was going down. it was time. >> jonas, should taxpayers foot the bill here? >> yes, but not in the way that you're tnking. first of all, iused to live on the outskirts of detroit. that's the problem. everybody lives on the outskirts and no tax base in it, and that's where the bailout is called for, not the bondholders, i wouldn't say the pensions or all the creditors. they will have to take a haircup. however, the federal government let this city collapse and does not provide security. people don't live there becae it's dangerous. they have the highest murder rate for like 20 years in america. we provide money to the mexican border to make it safer from the drug world violence, to many countries abroad. this is our own city, an the federal government needs to make it safe so you can live in the cheap houses that are there now and start a business there. you can'to that if it's -- if

it's a borderline militarized zone, and that's the bailout that they have always needed for a long time, not make the bondholders better. that's not going to fi this problem where gary b. and myself won't live there. >> john layfield, he makes a good point. we bail out lots of countries, lots of foreign aid. what about our own city? >> yeah, we do. look, we're giving up $1.5 billion to egypt after they had a military overthrow a democratically elected leader. our president was down in africa promising $7 billion for some type of communication infrastructure. these are our fellow americans. we spend tens of billions of dollars building cntries in the middle east that hate us. look, i'm not for federal bailouts, but thin thing stephane makes that's right is these guys went to work every day and was promised something and won't get it. the auto bailout was a pension of unions and pensions and i'm not for a bailout on that. why are we spending so much

money bailing out our own ken try and not considering bailing out detroit? it's hypsy. >> gary b., last word. >> jonas makes a very good point but the question is, a, do we have the number and, b, what prevents another city from raising its hand? cleveland has parts of city that's unlivable, so does pittsburgh and every metropolitan area. boy, we'd be better off and safer if we could develop that part of our city if we had, you know, the national guard in there patrling, because we don't have the money. think that's the proverbial slippery slope. >> okay. alright. that's the last word. thanks, guys. >> so, from matrimony to watch your money. more peoplar whipping out that checkbook without checking in with their spouse first. is that right or wrong? the boys used double miles from their capital one venture card

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if you don't like them, take them back. >> okay. i don't like them. >> don't get used to it. >> do you ask your spouse before making a purchase? if not, you're not alone. a recent survey showing more than half of all married couples do not ask their spouse before buying something and stephane, you say that a bad financial decision. th doesn't happen in your house. >> it's a terrible financial decision. one of the best ways to get your finances under control is clear these purchases with your spouse. for example, this weekend i was supposed to go to leavenworth, washington for a really cool rock climbing ass, it was going to cost $300.

called my wife and told me about the plan. guess who is spending the day with his buddies on fox news and going to the movies with his doubter? >> jbl, i bet you would have been at the rock climbing. do you ask meredith for specific purchases? >> absolutely none of her business if i want to buy a supercharger for my huge 4 byck 4 in texas and i don't know why women need 400 pairsof shoes or boots but she doesn't need to tell me when she's buying a new pair of shoes. ignorant is bliss, and i am dumb and very happy. >> jonas, it's no grantee if you do talk that you're going to make a good decision, the two of you. >> what's the presumption that one of the sides of the relationship is like the real thrifty smart person. peoplearry the same type -- they are going to make the same dumb decision. it's not like that's going to solve your financial problems because your spouse think it's a good ide to buy a snow beal with financing. the bottom line is you have a

budget, however you do that, doesn't really matter what you're buying asong as you stay within a financially feasible budget. you don't need permsion to stay within your budget. stay within your budget so this is a false sense, my wife id it's okay so it's got to be okay. >> gary b., do you ask your wife when you want to buy that tennis racket or -- >> i think it depends on a couple of things. i think it depends on not to go all dr. phil and everying, but i think it depends on the dynamics. i think it depends on the dynamics of the relationship, you know. there is some trust there. look, my wife and i have been together for over 25 years. she's earned the right to go and buy whatever she wants whenever she wants because i trust her, but i also trust her, if it was a big purchase, say a car or something or a very, very expensive piece of jewelry, she would come and ask me, so i think for the major things, you have to get to the point it's relationship first, you get to the period of trust and then you trust that the other person would say something.

>> and for a pickup truck would she have to ask you? okay. tracy, what do you think? >> so i sit here in a different spot because i don't have to answer to anyone, that is one of the perks of having to pay a divorce attorney lots of money but that being said there should be a conversation when you're going into it i think because, you know, maybe one side doesn't reize that's a dance recital bill is due and you're out spending money on new tires for the car, so there has to be some sort of communication, but if you both work and you're out there making money, i think you can do what you nt. >> like congress, uppending to meet what your wife spends. >> if you ask yo spouse and they want to add something to the mix so they can let you buy and you buy, it gets worse. stay within your budget. >> i'm with you, tracy. kind of nice not having to a anybody, that's one of the perks of divorce. all right. thanks, guys.

talk about a back-to-school bummer. more families planning on cutting back, and that may be a big bummer for you, even if you don't have kids in school. the pursuit of a better tomorrow is something we all share. but who can help you find your own path? who can build you a plan, not just a pie chart? who can help keep your investments on course, whatever lies ahead? that someone is a morgan stanley financial advisor. and we're ready to work for you.

predictions, and gary b., you're up. >> brenda, you know, we talked earlier, detroit is struggling but gm is not. they are doing great. i think the stock is up 40% over the next 12 months. >> jonas, bull or bear? >> bear. >> all right.

stephane, your prediction. >> i mentioned despicable me. i want to see a movie in 3-d on imax. i think that stock is extraordinary. the technology is very good. it's expensive stk but i see it up 45% in a year. >> john, bull or ear? >> love imax, i think the stock is teams pensive. bear. >> okay. and what do you like? >> the migration to mobile away from pcs hurt google and fabook, buy mobile. verizon up 20% in a year. >> stephane, bull or bear? >> it's a good preme. i don't li this stock very much. >> a bear. jonas, your prediction? >> operation prism is a go again. the government is re-tapping my phone for a few more weeks and months. therefore, smale nail is the safe way to go, especially if you use invisible ink, stamps.com, an oxymoron. >> gary, bull or bear? >> my jonas impression, bear. >> okay. >> tracy, your prediction. >> survey recently taken says that people plan to spend less on back-to-school shopping this

year. that's not a good sign for the economy. that is basically the bulk of retail sales. >> oh, my god, i just spent $400 for my kids' freshman yearbooks. >> no. >> "cavuto on business" next. forget about the nation's capital going after walmart, this fight could be going national. hello, everyone. i'm charles payne in for neal cavu and all eyes on the d.c. mayor who can kill the massive minimum wage hike on big box retailers, six others joining them to fight it as activists look to take this fight nationwide, but will that just have jobs taking a dive? to our guests, gary k.? >> let's hope this d.c. mayor gets it right and vetoes this stupidity. look, walmart, one of the great business models