mario, we'll miss you. thanks for being here. >> thankou, mario. >> thank you for being here. see you tomorrow. ♪ raise your wages pushing the minimum to the max. it's going national. more wage protests planned in more cities this week and democratic leaders in d.c. are showing their suprt. >> we have put forth legislation to raise the minimum wage. >> it's time for the mimum wage to go up! >> but some jo creators warning super sizing the minimum wage will downze our already shaky job market. are they right? hi, everyone. i'm brendabuttner. this is bulls & bears. here they are, gary b. smith

tracy burns, jonasax ferris, hn layfield along with david mercer. welcome, everybody. gary b., will maximizing the minimum wage minimize or maximize our jobgrowth? >> well, brenda, it's going to kill job growth, especially when you get right down to it what the minimum wage does, it discriminates against less-skilled workers. it's plain and simple. new york in 2006 raised their minimum wage from about 5.15o 6.75. they saw a 20% increase in unemployment against younge lesser skilled workers. in 2007 before the recession started, unemploymt amongst young black teenagers -- i want to get the figure right -- was about 29%. now, after all the stimulus and what we've done, it's 40%. so clearly it works against these worker and, you know, the argument that the left makes

is, well, these businesses can't afford it. first of all, most small businesses,renda, canan't afford to pay more. but even if they can, even if you're walmart, they say, they can afford it. i'd like to know from the left what happens with those earnings that go out as extra wages. those earnings are tained as profits so walmart, sears, whoever, can build businesses and hire more people. they have less profits to do that. ey can't expand their business. it also rts unemployment. it's horrible. >> david, i think he'salking right to you. what do you have to say back? >> well, i'll say that, with all-time profits now being exrienced by corporations, it's about time, after four years, that workers get a fair share of that. and i think in it doing so you help the economy by giving them more affordabl wages to have more economic security. that puts in more buying power and increases demandhat overall increases growth in the economy, leading to other

hiring. so in that instance, i think it's about time that we raise the minimum wage. >> john does this just ignore supply and demand. >> completely. i love the argument here that these companies are making so much money, how dare they make so much money. and i love the jobs plan. you have companies withlot of cashn balance sheets so the jobs plan of the administration is, we want you to take that cash and hire people you don't need. look, the minimum wage affects only about 2.9% of workers, and understand the average family that has a minimum wage worker makes $53,000 per ye. people are in poverty because they don't have jobs. people are not ipoverty because they're making minimum wage. >> and talking about jobs, tracy, the job creators, small business, gary mentionethis, are they the ones who wl get hit hardest by this? >> absolutely. you raise the minimu wage, they can't afford the extra dishwasher in the kitchen. and why should they when they can have family members do it? it hurt hads entry level jobs. it will hurt our teenagers.

brenda, the goal in life is not to be on minimum wage forever. people forget this. that's your entry. your goal is to do a great job and get promoted and move. this notiowe'll keep raising it just to share the wealth because we're almost at this point is ridiculous. >> jonas, unions are really pushing this. why do you think tha is? >> because they're losing members that are way above the minimum wage and they need to get a whole new group of people, who are minimum wage workers who work at fast food restaurants. that's a side story. there should be a correlation between raising the minimum wage and higher unemployment because it makes sense you're raisg the cost of labor, demand less. believe me there's none. people look for it. some stas have higher minimum wage, shington state has a much higher minimum wage tha the federal level and they're in the top half of states with low unemployment. georgia has got a really -- they've got -- their own state wage is lower than the minimum wage and they have high unemployment. it's hard to say it blatantably

causes unemployment. there's definite a level you could set it at that would cause massive unemployment but we had a higher level in the past adjusting for inflation. we're not there t. i don't know why democrats when they were in power didn't set index but they used it as a political tool to win elections because it looks like they're doing something for the working man because they have solved this problem,ike social security, a long time ago by indexing this to inflation. gary b., you've been shaking your head. >> i just gave anexample. you have to look state b state. it's difficult to compare minimum wage across the states or across the country bause as jonas alludes to, every cale is different. but as i said, you can look at new york state. to david's point, again, he want to ce back to a point, if it's awalmart, for example, you think, walmart has enoh money to pay their employees more. look, maybe they do, but the fact is walmart takes those earnings they have and they open more stores! i don't know what an average walmart storee employs, maybe a

thousand workers. if they have less earnings because they're paying all their people more, they can't open that store and then they can't employ another,000 wo thousand . >> then cut the ceo pay. >> cut the ceo pay will pay for all the minimum wage for the 200,000 walmart people? >> starbucks is opening up stores and they're in far of raising the minimum wage. >> david, it's none of your business what walmart does with its moy. >> i'm not saying it's my business. but we're talking the news here t. is my business. >> walmart has the choice to do what it want with its money. >> and they can. and competitively -- look, if the minimum wage is raised, that's for everybody. that means it's equal playing field. >> no, it's not. >> mcdonald's has to pay a minimum wage just like any other hamburr maker and so -- >> no. >> that is the case. >> john? >> with the federal minimum wage. >> no, it's not an equal payin field. this is a pulous message. this is nothing but political

malarkey. hey, look, we're trying to help the small guy. you're not -- >> not to the person receiving minimum wage, it's not political it's income. >> let mfinish, david. take walmart and gary b.'s hometown of washington, d.c. they pssed the walmart rule. 75,000 square feet or more. that only affects walmart, you have to pay your employees 5 higher than competitors. what did walmart do? they did the smart thing, we're not opening stores. walmart has lowered food inflation by one percentage point. that helps the poor. they don't get this in washington, d.c., because of this political bs. >> david? >> i just say walmart can find its market somewhere else because -- >> but that takesobs away. >> that takes jobs from d.c. >> the job they're offering at the wage they're offering means you have to have two jobs when you work for walma. >> david, thehave people lining up for those jobs! al at every walmart they open, people line up for the jobs. >> if the jobs were so horrible, people would say, , i'm going t go elsewhere and look for a job. >> and let walmart do it. as we all said, it's walmart's

business. let them do wh the want. d.c.'s not having it. >> this isn't about walmart. they're paying people higher than their competitors as it is. >> but they're cutting their nose to spite their face. they're saying rs walmart, if you don't pay, then walmart doesn't provide 1,000 or 2,000 new jobs. is that what you want? >> there will be others that come in that see it as -- >> there hasn't been. >> brenda thshgs is a small business story, too. these are the creators of the jobs in our country. we're looking to these people to give opportunity out there. and you know what? if you're going to rai the minimum wage to $10, that's almost not worth it for me to hire the dishwasher in the back. >> that's a living wage instead of a poverty wage. >> it's not worth it for me. you have to remember that. so there goes another job. it just makes n sense. >> and, jonas, does itlso stifle other start-up businesses from getting into theusiness and hiring other workers? >> i just don't think a lot of start-up businesses are hiring

minimum wage workers in this economy. again, there's a level that would hu the economy, but there's something going on also which is that the govement already redistributes wealth to lower income people. and this is sort of mandating that a coany does it wth their especially excess profits. however, if we did that and al lowered the earned income credit, it could actually balance out. >> i'morry, jonas. we've got to pay our bills but u all earned your salary wth that one. thanks, guys. unions chiming in on detroit's bankruptcy. the afl-cio calling on president obama and congresso pass an immediate federal bailout of detroit. but the cashing in creways not so fast. they have a free market solution that won't cost taxpayers one cent. that's coming up at 11:30 a.m. eastern. but up next, want to overhaul our massive tax code? our massive tax code? then a top democrat any last requests mr. baldwin?

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politics. take reid, pelosi and boehner on extended vacation, then when they come back, tell themnot to. that would help the country. reid says he doesn't see it, hasn't read it but is against it. we have a tax code that's ridiculous, gives favors to big business and people with power. it's happened for decades. that's why we have 72,000 pages of an irs man you'll. that's why we'll pay the highest tax rate because i can't buy off the crooksn d. because i don't have money, influence. that's why google, amazon, all are paying 16% to 18% corpore tax. overhaul the entire system. that fixes it. >>jonas, you say we need spending cuts and tax hikes. >> yes. this revenue neutral thing, it doesn't work. the bottom line,we're never going toet out of the budget deficit with anythg revenue neutral. we have to cut spending and raise revenues. there's no way around that. can it be put togetherh something like that? yeah, we couldemove the

deductions chshgs is why americans most pay a single digit federal tax rate. it's hard to say -- who cares if this their rate goes up a litt because some of the deductions are taken away. however, we can't go -- the biggest tax deduction is all the levels of housing deductions for mortgages and depreciation levels for those who rent, if you remove that to remove deductions, home prices will fa 30% in a year and cause a foreclosure mess. you have to phase out over ten years. >> gary b., we're tlking about a illion dollars in tax hike snz. >> brenda, it's astronomical. i don't see just to talk to jonas for a second, why we can't cut spending and cut revenues. that's another way to get around this arrhythmia -- this equat n equation. i zrach my scratch my said. is there some evidence that giving more money to the government is eective?

do we have some evidencehat the government is somehow efficient? we just spent a trillion dollars with the stimulus. has that helpe at all? i don't see it has. is there evidence anywhere in the world that bigger government is somehow better? no. is there evidence that government spending just the bottom line is someho efficient? no. i mean, we haven't even ofcially started obamacare and, what, it already three times over-budget, giving more money to the government is exactly e wrong way to go. >> david, what do you think of this? >> i'll go back to jonas' point in approaching the budget both with revenue and spending ts, and i though what the real debate is with the finance committee chairman -- with chairman baucus and senator hatch along with reid, look, don't give me reform if it's revenue neutral. give me reform that's revenue gerating so we can, as weave inhe last two months, brought down our budget deficits by generating additional revenue to the tune of closing loopholes of

$975 billion, goes to reducing the defic. if we're going to have tax reform with closing loopholes, let's do it with >> it's not about the budget, bren. the segment is about tax reform. no one has the litil you know what to say, yes, let's junk the book like john said. this is a book of favors. you never can patch work fix it. you have to have someone willing to do politica suicide and say for the good of e country we have to start over. to gforward with this thing one more day, one more y year i going to keep this country in deplete deficicit because no on understas it enough. don't ll me for a second harry re does his own tax rurn. he doesn't evenw what he's talking about when it comes to taxes. we have to junk it and start over. >> all right. we've got to end on that. thanks, guys. and how about this for hypocrisy? one cash-strapped state is planning to force workers to start saving cash. the cavuto on business gang

saying this is a start of a new government creep we should all be worried about. that's at the bottom of the hour. but up here first, bailed out. now busted. the startling number of rescued homeowners back in default and why another bailout may be on why another bailout may be on its way. the rsuit of a better tomorrow is something we all share. but who can help you find your own path? who can build you a plan, not just a pie chart? who can help keep your investments on course, whatever lies ahead? that someone is a morgan stanley financiaadsor. and we're ready to work for you.

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so remember those taxpayer-backed bailouts for homeowners? what if i told you that nearly half of tse who had their loans rescued by uncle sam are defaulting again? antracy, you say this is just

more proof that bailouts don't work? >> brenda, they do not address the problem.m. the problem is people dn't have js to pay their mortgages. so you can change the interest rate six ways until tuesday, if you don't have a job, you still can't pay it. the people who end up paying it are the taxpayers. we're again on the hook for a bailout that went absolutely nowhere. the only people who benefitted are the banks. move e coffers are packed with cash. this is simply good for p votes >> david, another bailout make sense? >> listen, i think what has to be looked at is the process of the program itself and how some banks, namely bank of america, where employees have even testified that they were preventing foreclosures, they were delaying the paperwork, and so farther that led to the high rate of foreclosures we see in the loan modifications. and they weren't offering them any real decrease in their principal, maybe 10%. so i think the banks have to be

looked at and work with the federal government to review those processeso why -- >> well, the government has some problems here, too, didn't it, gary b.? >> i don't know how this became acorporations are a bad thing. we're talking about, back to tracy's point, changing behavior. that's what bailouts don't do. whether they didn't have a job, whether they thought they made more than they did, it doesn't -- when we bail out either the banks, which i think those troubled asset relief stuff is still on the books, or the homeowners, it doesn't change anything so it's just spending oer people's money. >>ohn, what does this tell you out bailouts and homeowners and the whole -- and foreclosures? >> it tells us that bailouts don't work, especially when you're bailing out homeowners. we're going to bail out car loans next, credit cards? this is insane. the problem here is not the banks. the banks have their eun fau. the problem her is the programs. none of these worked. one of the programs you have to be current on all your payments. if you're rrent, youdon't

need your mortgage modified. this w a disaster from the start. it's political. that's all it is. >> okay, jonas, weigh in. >> it did achieve the goal of slowing down a flood of foreclosures. at least now the real estate market can handle an additional homeowner in the mart. we couldn't have handled that two years ago, everybody under water got foreclosed on in a two-month period. this was not a bailout of the defaulter t. was a bailout of th bank. if you bought a $400,000 condo that went to 00,000, a bailout of the homeowner would haveeen a government loan to buy a new home for $200,000, a good investment, not keep making payments on your underwater property. this was for the banks inheriting worthless real estate. >> what do you think, tracy? >> i think they'll renew it and it will be circular r a long time. the only way to fix it is if the job market comes back. >> that's the last word. thanks, guys, thank you to david for joining us. >> pleasure to be here. well, talk about a buzz kill. beer sales down because that

payroll tax is up? but there's one name still tapping profits, and i just gave tapping profits, and i just gave you a hint what it is. this man is about to be the millionth customer. tapping profits, and i just gave you a hint what it is. would you mind if i go ahead of you? instead we had someone go ahead of him and win fiy thousand dollars. congratulations you are our e millioh customer. nobody likes to miss out. that's why ally treats all their customers the same. whether you're the first or the millionth. if your nk doesn't think you're special anymore, yoneed an ally. ally bank. your money needs aally.

the most recent southwest airlines crash at laguardia, it's one of many. the airlines have to improve the safety or the industry is going to get hurt. >> keep the government out of it. >> your prediction, gary b.?

>> taco bell is gting rid of kids' toys, good for mcdonald's think the stock is up 30% over the next year. >> jonas, you like mcdonald's? >> no, i do not. this is a richer economy. >> jonas, your prediction/. >> okay, google launched this $35 tv adaster thing which is good f google but also good for needing wi-fi aadaptadapter netgear is up. >> netgear had an unauthorized stock split on friday. i would avoid it for now. >> hence the deal. and john? >> less premium bear sales. we learned something in the depression, people are going to drink, go with coors light and tap up 20%. >> i don't know about you guys but i am notisagreng with john and beer, but gary b., what do you say? well, i'm sitting right next to it him. i'm going to disagree with john? >> no. smart move if you're been arm's reach.

>> jonas? >> i say this is it a champagne food economy with the beer. >> we like that. >> okay and the freedom, the number one business bloc on tv tips, cavuto on business. the are latest money message from the predent? >> this growing inequality, inequality of opportunity, reducing inequality, little more incattle, inequality is both inevitable and just. inequality will continue to increase >> during his major speech on the economy, president obama using the word "inequality" more than "growth." is that any way to get america growing? hello, everyone. i'm charles paynein for neil cavuto. charles gas perino with his no shirt or tie, because clarlly's new book "circle of friends" in stores, online, everywher