going do it again. log on to "fox & friends" and we will see you tomorrow. hang onto your seat, because the fight over raising the government's debt ceiling may have you hittinghe ceiling. >> every person thinks raising the debtceiling must mean that we're running up our debt. >> well, here's something else average americans know. when they increase tirudget, they spend more. and those same average americans have been getting their spending under control. unlike politicians in d.c. so should the government act more like you? hi, everyone. i'm brenda button. this is "bulls and bears." let's get right to it. here they are, the "bulls and bears" this week. we have gary b. and david merce.

welcome to everybody. john, the government raising its debt. average americans cutting their debt. what's going on here? >> what alternate universe does the president think that erica lives in? look, if you have a credit card debt, and you have $10,000 limit, you reached your limit, and you turn to your company and say, i'm borrowing money from my neighbor every month to pay my credit card debt, can you raise it to $20,000? because raising my kracredit ca limit does not increase my debt. it's preposterous. this isn't just president obama. since 2000, republicans and decrats both, $5.6 trillion in debt in 2000. almost three times that right now. we are the richest nation in the world, a we are on a path that is unsustainable by this congress and ts administration that we have.

>> jonas, the government has a different role than averag americans do. does that make a difference? >> dinitely. first of all, what we just heard is actually sort of interesti, because when they raise your credit limit on your credit card, your credit scor goes up. same with the government. if they were to the raise the limit, r sovereign debt rating would probab go up. but the reason that government shouldn't do what people do, yes, people have been paying down doubt. les income, they didn't want to borrow money, et cetera. governments in a recession, they should borrow money and spend it. when people start doing the same, that's when the government should do the oposite, and be the counterbalance to the economy. unfortunately i don't see that any time soon. >> do you agree with jonas' economics here?

>> i thi his last name is cains. he subscribes tohe theory that this government spending will help the economy. it's not. it's unefficient spending, as we've talked about add na nause. what it does is it pays for the bills already signed. but the problem is, in both parts of congress are responsible. they pay off let's call it $1 trillion in new spending bills. and the debt limi is only $900 billion. they say, well, we can't pay for the trillion. we need to rise the debt limit. it's that assumption that the debt limit is going to keep being raised that contributes to the spendi. what we need to do is at some point, clamp down on this whole debt limit, stop increasing it, and have some sort of balanced budget. >> tracy, wouldn't it be nice if you wanted to spend more money, and you just took a vote of your family and said, ok, let's raise our debt that we're going to take on.

>> yes. and actually still be able to sleep at night. because i can't when i have credit card debt. it drives me c. brenda, i found that whole thing with the president so condescending. you silly average american, you seem to think that raising the debt ceiling increase -- you're silly. i kn better. and i don't care what anyone says. increasing government spending, you want to create your shovel-ready jobs which are still noxistent? it won't help us at the endf the day. let's look at the problem here. obama care is a problem because no one is hiring. no revenue. no one's got money out there. it's so simple, and yet they are so stupid down there sometimes that i just don't get it. >> well, david, the debt is now 3/4 of the gdp, which is basically the economy. in 25 years, it's supposed to be 100% of the economy. that not heading in the ght way. >> and that's why we ran in june and july, we ran surpluses

actually. we're bringing down our deficits, and as a percentage of gdp spending is at almost a record low of 15% of gdp. so we've been bringing spending down. but to john's point, with regard to the credit card analogy, one thing a family knows is that if they don't pay the credit card bill that they used to spend money, then they lose that credit card or they get a lower credit rating. and congress authorized the spending that's going on. and we need for the full faith and credit of the united states to remainntact and to keep borrowing costs low, we need to pay our bills. and the raisingf the debt ceiling does not add dime to deficit spending. it only authorizes what has already been signed into law by bills in congress appropriating those funds. >> well, but if we have raised the debt ceiling 100 times, as the president says, isn't that just proof, john, that we are

spending more money? >> good lord, yes. yes. you're giving these ys license. to say they spend like drunk sailors is an insult to drunk sailors. these guys have gone absolutely crazy. i'not for a government shut downpourdow down. >> hopefully you're for ying for the bills. >> we're going to be able to pay those bills. look, the thing is, if you're saying it's not going to add to the debt, why don't you just stay within the budget right now? we need a congressional amendment for a balanced budget. nobody is for that because no politician says we're going to balance the budget because they know if they are the ones that create the austerity, they get fired. >> you have to do tat before you get to a debt ceiling. >> we're like hamster on a eel. when the fed decides it's not going to taper and leave everything really low and cheap, money is still dirt cheap, our interest payments on all of this debt are actually staying kind of low. when the reality hits and the

interest rates start to go up, and the interest payments start to rocket, then what happens to us? we're all living in la-la land right now. >> and the interest rates will go up if we don't meet the debt ceiling and get it passed. >> they are going up anyway. >> gary b., is all this spending going to hurt the economy? >> is all the government spending going to hurt the economy? no, absolutely not. david was trying t pull on our heartstrings there. i'm surprised he didn't bring up teachers or firemen, you know, or the -- >> just the facts, gary b. because e debt ceiling -- >> hold on, david. let gary go. >> the arguments rang the same as when we were talking about thesequester. oh, my gosh, it's going to be catastrophic. we can't live without the government spending. meanwhile, here's the effect of the sequester. people forget about that. as far as not paying the debt limit, what would happen if we didn't pass it the government, the treasury department would have to prioritize the debt and interest

payments. they could do that. they could make that a top priority. and guess what? they'd have to live within their means fothe other parts of the spending. it can't be done, but the government won't do it. >> the last time w did that, the stock market within three weeks went down 17%. consumer confidence wentown. >> are you saying the government's responsibility is to the stock market? >> no. i'm saying that you give confidence to decision making -- >> i don't care about that. i care about the long-term future of my kids. >> guys, you're talking over one another, ok? our viewers hate that. jonas, go ahead. >> the problem with this debt limit is it doesn't just address new spending. if you determine the debt s.e.a. ceiling and you cannot pass a new debt bill, unfortunately it applies to all spending so ash trarly you can't make payments for things you have already done.

if you have already commitmeie something, it has to be done. the way it is now, it's been raised almost 100 times. it has to be because it doesn't make any sense to have one. >> jonas, then why don't we have ever have a logical conversation about entitlements? we keep spending and spending and no one has the political will to discuss that. >> that's got to be the last word. with the budget battle on the brink, who better to help solve our nation's money woes than our own super financial hero, neil entwistle? neil cavuto? he is trying down to d.c. to do his best to get the political decision makers to gather. don't miss itfirst at 4:00 p.m. and then at 8:00 p.m. on fox business. but up here, 1,004 straight days of this. and five years of waiting for this. so is approving the keystone xl so is approving the keystone xl pipeline the only way copd makes it hard to breathe...

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to do is log on to foxnews.com. so here's a record that's a pain in your tank. gasrices above $3 a gallon for more than 000 days in a row. that's never happened before. and it comes as we markhe five-year anniversary of the official request to build the keystone xl pipeline. yet still no decision from the white house. tracy, you say we need to build it now to help bring gas below $3 a gallon.

>> this is one anniversaryou don't want to celebrate. we should have this already. i mean, if for nothing else to help gas prices and help our national security issue. i know john will say we don't have an energy plan here in the united states. but it is about national security. look what happened syria. we talk about going over there a little bit, and gas prices go up. we'll continue to see this uncertainty and unrest in gas prices until we actually just become independent and do it ourselves. and the problem, of course, though too is with states struggling, you havell of those taxes that go into gas. so in order to alleviate that end, bring it all here ate. >> john, go ahead. you say it. >> tracy is a ry smart lady. she always is. we are the only developed country that has not h a national energy plan. we have no national longerm plans anything. the monterey shale in cafornia alone would balance the budget in california. how does the keystone pipeline

fit into the national plan? who knows? we don't have one. how does fracking fit in? who knows? we don't have one. this stuff is not improving because we have no natial plan whatever. the guys on the far left hate fossil fuels. the guys on the right think that tr huggers are the antichrist. the whole thing is a debacle, and the keystone pipeline is a prime example. >> gary b., if we approve the keystone pipeline and got it up and running, would that bring gas prices down? >> how could it not? look, we're basically sending this to be refined oil to the gulf. and one, you're going to create jobs, but two, you're putting more oil on the market. the contention is th, oh, maybe gas prices will go up in the midwest because that oil will be shipped overseas. who cares? there will be more global oil out there, more supply is going to bring down prices. and as for john's point about a national energy plan, i've go

to go against that. we have a national energy plan. it's beat up on coal and beat up on oil. that's the national energy plan. >> david, do you think that the keystone pipeline is key to bringing gas prices down? no, i don't. and most expertwould agree that it wouldn't. and one expert says at that oil wouldn't come online onto the world market until about 2020. that's for one. d secondly, the impact on gas prices would be miniscule, if at all, on oil prices or gas prices. so i don't think that the keystone is the key to our energy independence. and in fact, we would be exporting that oil. and in fact, we might have higher gas prices in the middle east for the oil that's not being used by the -- excuse me, by the midwest that goes through those states with the pipeline, and it's getting to texas and going overseas.

so i don't think it would have perceptible impact at all on the oil prices. >> i'll get to jonas in just a minute. gary b., you were really shaking your head there. >> well,l, that's just exactly what i said. i knew t argument he would make. it'sike, oh, my gosh, they are not going to have any of the oil there. it's all going to go overseas. what oil do you think they are going to use? it's a global supply of oil, david. >> and experts say it won't have an impact on it. >> you guys are amazing together. but i have to get jonas in here. >> first of all, we're not going to get below $3 below gasoline unless the's a huge recession ever again. considering it is a finite resource, that's an amazing fact in itself. you could have 100 but it's not a factory that makes fuel. it is a commodity that is a finite product. it's n like grain. we can't make more of it. if you can lower the price, great. but you' going to raise the price 10 cents in 10 years because there's only so much to get. we use more every year. we need to stop that.

>> john lafield? >> i don't agree with the fact that you add to the supply, you're going to increase price. >> you're taking future supply, aren't you? >> any supply. >> ok, guys. we have to get out of here. >> you are correct, but you add supply you're going to lower prices, not raise prices. not to mention the jobs to build the pipeline. with less than o weeks befofore a major part of the health care law kicks in, did we just find out cavuto and his gang were right all along about the long lines you'll see at your doctor's office? that's at the bottom of the hour. but up here first, sending tax dollars tomonitor kids online to fight cyber bullying. it's happening. is that a good

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as kids settle into school, one district in california is taking the fight of cyber bullying into a whole new vel. it is spending taxpayer cash to monitor student aivity on social media. the school says it's money well spent. but, gary b., you say it's invading udents' privacy. >> it's invading their liberty. no one likes bullying. bullying is d. let's stipulate that. but is it -- my question, is it the government's responsibility to stop it? no. it starts with the parents. it starts with peer pressure. once you get the government in there, it's like the w on obesity. it's nutrition. it's exercise. it's the whole thing.

it's government run amok. i'm against that. >> well, tracy, i don't know. if there's cyber bullying going on, i don't care who finds it, i want to know about it. >> i'm with you. and look, this california school hired an outside firm. so it's not necessarily the government. they hired a firm that's got this new technology to figure this out. we are in uncharted territory these days with our kids. i would want all the help i could get, because you can only scan and sneak on their phones so much without knowing what's going on. and bullying is really awful. i would do anythingo help a kid get out of it. >> jonas, what do you think of this? >> someone needs to find the wimp who cook up this idea and beat him up. that's what i think. >> oh! hey, i'm going to bully you. >> no, this is their job. the schools have done a terrible job of stopping bullying for decades. that is a policing job when you' not with your parents. this is a definiteetter use of money than schools that are hiring extra police because of a one in a million chance of a school shooting. that's for sure. >> david, do you agree? >> iind of agree.

i think that we do need -- it's not just schools. we need to create an environment that is safe and secure and does not includebullying. i'm not sure, however, getting across the line of invading privacy is a way to go. we've got to find a balance between protecting the students and otecting privacy as well. and i think we need to create a better environment for that. i'm not sure that cyber space and invasion of it is the best way to do that. >> it's already publicly posted. but, jn, a lot of these schools can't even afford copy paper. they have parents bringing it in. is this the best way to spend taxpayer money? >> that's the biggest question, brda, is the best use of resources. i run a kids program here in bermuda and deal with bullying all the time. i understand how bad it is. but for $40,000, you can hire an extra teacher. you have one thing that's good, one thing may be better. it's the question of be use of resources. i would hire the extra teher. >> here is the thing.

all the company does. it's searching for keywords. all we're looking for is really bad bully type words, andhat's how they start the research on this all the more, i think if it helps save one kid, because there's a lot of suicides because of bullying out there, i say do it. >> ok. thanks, guys. and thank you to david for joining us again today. >> pleasure to be with you. have a good weekend. from checking your bags to placing your bets, dozens of tsa agents busted for an illegal gambling ring. now, someone here has a sure bet on how to clean up the agency, and speed up those security and speed up those security lines.

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predictions. john, you're up. >> blackberry has imploded. stay away from it. gary b., bull or bear? >> i don't like that one. >> what do you like? >> i like google. on my ptop, google cloud offering saved the day. stock up 10% in the next six months. jonas, what do you think? >> new iphone lines on the block this week. not a good week. >> jonas, your prediction? >> airline industry. $27 billion in recd fees for all the little bags and stuff. leaves jetblue plenty of upside to catch up to the competition. 20% in a year. >> john, bull or bear? >> love jonas. hateirlines. bear. >> tracy? >> speaking of airlines, dozens

of tsa agents were fired for illegal gambling in pittsburgh. totally waste of our money. just privatize the hour already. "cavuto on business," next. the clock is ticking on health care law that keeps, well, kicking us. hello, everybody. i'm neil cavuto. if you thought companies cutting their coverage because of this law and even more jobs because of this law, if you thought any of that was bad news, hold on. because in california, that is exactly what patients will be forced to do. insuranccompanies are limiting the number of doctors and hospitaling in their plan, and that is expected to mean more wait time. but do not say i did not warn you. you might want to invest in office furniture makers. hear me out on this. specifically those who make chairs and couches for waiting room because as i see it,