and with that: you're history. instead of looking behind... delta is looking beyond. 80 thousand of us investing billions... in everything from the best experiences below... encourage other hackers? >> well, not, they will continue to do that as long as we give them the power to do so, obamacare itself is the loosest of all, imagine the type of information medical records, personal issues. psychological issues. government will know everything in the world about everyone. very soon. neil: you -- last time you were on you raised something interesting. sometimes whatever do you to defend yourself from the government, spy owg, say you don't waning you on --spying yoo go it google, i have since heard, a lot of people just in

doing that you catch the government's attention, you become more of a target, why is neil starting his own server? >> and then they irs will show up at your door and audit you. nile, this not a technical problem this is say problem of spirit, we're americans, why do we allow this to happen? vote, vote these bastards out! neil: that is one way of putting it john mcafee thank you very much goo seeing you again. >> thank you, sir. neil: all right, one thing i learned in this so far more than 24 hour old crisis, we have 800,000 government workers who are deemed non-essential. think of that. 800,000 non-essential workers. what defines essential? when we made our commitment to the gulf, bp had two big goals: help the gulf recover and learn from what happened

so we could be a better, safer energy company. i can tell you - safety is at the heart of everything we do. we've added cutting-edge technology, like a new deepwater well cap and a state-of-the-art monitoring center, whe experts watch over all drilling activity twenty-four-seven. and we're sharing what we've learned, so we can all produce energy more safely. our commitment has never been stronger.

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neil: the first lady's tweeter got furloughed. due to congress' failure on pass legislation to fun the government, updates to the account will be limited that person doing the tweeting, one of hundreds of thousands non-essential government workers, two things, the non-essential government workers, but fact that the first lady has a village for tweets, if i tweet to you, it's like hey. she has a staff. >> you are not the first lady. neil: i am not. >> he is the first man. neil: this is stupid, you have to put out a tweet to say you can't tweet because your staff is a bunch of twits. >> i don't think that first lady

tweets. >> i'm on her list. >> what does that tell you? we have a lot of crazy staff in washington if people have staff to handle just tweets. >> they don't. neil: do you know we have guys tha push elevator buttons. >> that is true. but, the president's staff has been furloughed. furloughed. >> when i have been reading tweets from the first lady they are not the first lady. >> not all of the time. >> probably never. neil: well then don't say you are tweeting me, it is not you, it is an evil imposter. >> are your tweets from you? >> all of them. >> even your show tweets. neil: yes. >> no they aren't. >> okay. neil: we have 800,000

nonessential person element through -- personnel, through much of my career i have been non-essential, but it might make the longer this drags how the, wait a minute, people of going towide up because we have -- wise up we have a very big government. >> that is where we're going. the government is way too big -- >> i'm going to let her. >> what is up with you today, stop talking and tweet. there is no much waste in washington, the americans get it now, the longer this goes omore they realize, government shut down, we're not noticing it, there are non-essential workers, think about it these are people that paid taxpayer money for what? tweeting. neil: i'm not saying ty are all of those non-essenal workers, i am saying that longer this drags oit is the boomerrage effect, be careful for what you

wish for. you might regret it, americans are going to say, wait a minute. it is going to be bumpy, but they will say, hey, you cried wolf again. >> i brought you one of my factoids that you love so much, did you know since advent of a central federal government in the country, there have been 6 years, where the number of federal employees decreased versus increased. the first 3 was 81, 1981, 82, and 83, who was president? reagan. and thin, in 2009, 10, and 11, who was president? barack obama. oddly enough this president is only one of two presidents who overseen a pretty healthy decrease in number of federal employees we're down 500,000 from when he started. >> yostarted. >> because this include set up -- does that set up healthy care. >> there is no way, i think you

made it up. neil: i am going to give you the benefit of the doubt. >> how many people are buying hired at irs -- >> many. neil: let's say if inc 97% of te staff, the dea, which could have its own host of problem, and let's say americans see that, whether they are right or wrong they are consequential but we go through weeks of this, we kind of seem to go on with our lives. aren't the same american people going to say, well, what is this about. >> why did it go up from last. neil: look at just vast bother crease we have -- ou buries bure have. >> i tell you, there are people we deem as non-essential, we know what is going on at the

nih, rat the cdc, people who were to go in every week for cancer treatments, under experiment at cancer treatments at nih cannot go in, including young children, these are people i would consider essential. neil: whether republicans made carve out for them, as president made carve out in his healthcare law. what was accepted with president doing that. >> what do you mean carve out. neil: limitation to keep nih going, and veteran benefits going, they were wal all squash. >> government is still operating, and remember, thi is happening because republicans think that obamacare is bad, those people are losing their job, full time going to part time, part -- >> those are real people. neil: my predict, longer this drags on this belief it is only hurting republicans it looks

like it will drag on, it will hurt democrats. >> i agree with that more than you might imagine. neil: oh, i have to change it. >> i tell you why, most people in this country don't know who john boehner circumstance everyone knows who barack obama circumstance they are going to tend to blame the president. >> and everyone knows that dc is disfunctional and too fat. >> how long do you think it will go. neil: two weeks. >> i think longer. neil: really, we'll see. >> october 24. neil: as these two geniuses were talking, from the white house how the meeting went, enjoyed being with my democratic friends, as for john boehner -- [raspberry] and reaction from governor of virginia, bob mcdonald after this. [ male announcer ] did you know

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neil: everything is finished in the house, they are not picking up any, likely asking, what is this congressman doing? he is part of a group of congressmen and women who are still talking to an empty chamber. the entire chamber is empty. buoyed businesbusiness is done. so what are you doing! that is just my, you have leaders meeting with house and 18 asenate today, then bain ared er said no. and nancy pelosi said the same thing, and harry reid, and president saying it. the president made clear to leaders, he is not going to negotiate over the need for congress to act toeopen the

government or raise debt limit to pay bills congress has incurred. reinforcing his view that house should put clean government funding bill that has been passed by the senate up for a vote. um,ing iing in nothing changed. why come to the white house to state what has already been stated. gov for, you are more schooled in these than i will be, but that see like a waste of time. >> you talk about the meeting? neil: yeah. >> it is disappointing on many fronts, did you ask the right question, what are you doing? when you have to get things done on time, we're incred. >> no state no local government,

show family could run like that so, here we go again. up to the hour. >> i know we're in a shut down mode. i'm sure we'll come out, perhaps a couple weeks, but when you had meetings, you call people in, i am sure you had an agenda. your loggerheads with democrats or whatever you offer' a plan, and an alternative or a compromise, something to get the ball moving. you don't strike me as a guy who likes to waste time. so, i'm looking at this, i -- cast a pox on both parties' leaders, why have this meeting? is it just to make it look like you are doing something? because you didn't do anything. >> well, number one, yes, and number two, president is leader

of the executive branch, the ball is in his court of, he helped to create a toxic environment by blaming republicans, and to not have a budget for 4 and a half years, not serious talk about en entitlementment reform that everyone knows is key to getting our fiscal house in order, the president has to lead. i give him credit for trying. but we should never be in this case where it is crisis after crisis. neil: many argue that more conservative elements within the republican party, have produced this whether you want to blame ted cruz or rand paul but that hard-line approach, has produced this problem, and it will be a problem next year in midterm elections for republicans, and the party your party will grab defeat from otherwise jaws of

victory. >> i say there is plenty of blame to go around. neil: the president is getting the bitter pr, high -- better pr off that, is that fair? >> no, because president contr controls 1 1/2 out of two major branches of government that set policy, he did not pass a budget when his party was 100% in charge. but the republicans, i would say, while i fully understand why they don't top see obamacare, and neither do the american people, and neither do we in virginia, this is aim time shutting government down over a ploy that you know is not going to work, president is not going to sign a bill defunds his signature achievement. it all for naught, the solution for that is that ballot box, and other cases. neil: are you afraid that it boomerrages and will hurt

republicans, they will be looked at whatever you might argue about the a thenisity, they will look to be the party, they are the party that just stomps its feet. >> you said it right, a pox on both houses, there is blame to go around, i think for both parties. but you don't do is put the burden on the backs of the american people, and virginia, 172,000 federal workers, 145,000 people in the armed forc forcest will hurt our budget, perhaps our bond rating. that is not the way to do it i would say, have a legitimate debate but don't not do the basic things that governments do, that is keep the doors open, and provide core services that the american taxpayer has invested trillions of dollars in a year. if we don't get a planned budget amendment to u.s u.s. constitut, and restore sim of federalism

that the great founders of country had in mind, we're headed to financial ruin in this country. this is a time i think for leaders and statesmen of u.s. congress to say, can't do business as usual any more. constant short-term crs are killing our country we need a spending blueprint. >> thank you, sir. fine state of virginia. this is what is going on. now to representative, they are so -- i think two congressmen are having a debate. they are actually having a debate could on this shut down. but house is shut down it is closed, government is shut down. it closed. they are one step away from rning out t lights. business is complete for the day in the house, leadership said we're done this like is, i did this one time. i stayed at yankee stadium, as late as i could, i knew a guy there who let me go into the

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tempur-pedic. the most highly recommended bed in america. now each of you can personalize your comfort at the touch of a button with our new tempur-choice. so both of you can get your best night's sleep together. neil: do you want to think about how long this lasts? i say two weeks, i hope i am wrong, people are betting on this, you can put your own money on this, the betting is, out of las vegas is the drag on for many days, mike left up wit lev, you can bit on anything in your fine system, the most popular bet of late this government shut down lasts a while. do you think it does? what does if say people will put money betting on that and safely think they get a return on that?

>> well, i think neil that is a serious problem with the government shut down, i would not want to say we're talk taking about -- we're taking any bets when it will end or not. neil: what do you think? you talk about you know, a crap shoot, that is say problem. what they, both parties, are unable to reconcile their difference or come up with a compromise, then, i mean that is throwing our rating, making a gamble there and on we go. >> i think you know, i want to quote last line of gettysburg address, the government of the people, by the people, and for the people shall not pierish from thperish fromthe earth appe we have a government that really cares about the peopler getting reelected. i think we're facing a major

crises in terms of confidence in our government, in the people we elect, and confidence of them doing the right thing for the public. it seems this could go on a lot longer than you think, or a lot more than anything thinks. neil: what if our rating is down rated? or we risk insolvency or defau default. we always make those interest payments to bondholders, but if it happens, i imagine all bets are off? >> well, i don't think so. i think that fincial people are smarter people than i will solve that kind of problem. >> do you really? would they react negatively? say we're on the risk of defaulting. markets on that type of uncertainty, sell first, and ask questions later.

>> my feeling is a problem will get solved by that time, but i don'tn 'n understand why we go o the end of the line in a decision to be made, and go into crisis, and why can't people talk to each other and come to a solution that is best for all, i i know we'll get there, but why do we have to be in pain. why under privileged people can't get meals. neil: do you think that tea party overstepped their grounds or pushed too far? >> i think -- you know, i think that everyone pusd it too far. i think there are a lot of people that are getting hurt because of this government shut down, no one seems to care, they don't care. the conversation you had, about individuals who are expendable, everyone individual is important. we have to have a government that recognizes that. and delivers policies, that

effectively help everyone, and the problem we have, we have two sides fighting with no solution. neil: when we have 800,000 non-essential federal government workers, take nothing away from the dignity of their work, is that an issue in and of itself, how do we get that many? >> we have a lot more non-essential than non-essential. the qstion is, every human being has a certain amount of essential nature. why are we're closing a farm in virginia, why are we closing a farm in virginia that has been open for 40 years, and does not take government money because national park service closes them down, and senses guards that are ar began the t began te -- air began th arrogant that ag them down, they are more

noncircumstance than annon-esse. neil: thank you. we have republicans, congressman we have republicans, congressman john cart iru when we made our commitment to the gulf, bp had two big goals: help the gulf recover and learn from what happened so we coulbe a better, safer energy company. i can tell you - safety is at the heart of everything we do. we've added cutting-edge technology, like a new deepwater well cap and a state-of-the-art monitoring center, whe experts watch over all drilling activity twenty-four-seven. and we're sharing what we've learned, so we can all produce energy more safely. our commitment has never been stronger. at bny mellon, our business is investments. managing them, moving them, making them work. we oversee 20% of the world's financial assets. and that gives us scale and insight no one else has. investment management combined with investment servicing.

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neil: all right, this guy is a pretty influential player in it debate. you have to do something, what >> you know, this is -- we got we're following regular order in the house, which has not been done in quite a few years. we're asking conference committee to come down, sit down and talk, you don't negotiate by asking to be told no, you negotiate by sitting down and talking out the issues.

we're talking about a entitlement that will bankrupt our nation, and harry reid calls it the republican shut down the government for little things. obamacare is not a little thing, it is a giant entitlement on top of other giant entitlement all of which we know have to be fixed. now, why not sit down and talk? neil: all right but that not happening, and president after this meeting today made it clear, he is not compromising on this health care thing. leave that out we're back to where we were, i don't know why they even called a meeting, that leads me to believe the two sides are far apart it could drag apart. >> it will be a while, my position ongoing to white house, is you know all they tell us is, you know, my way or the highway. i think that going to the white house is futile. there is no reason to go there. the president is being absolutely stubborn. on a broken program that is already out, and i talked with a

lot of people who tried to go on it, it is impossible. neil: what are they doing on the floor right now? business is complete, there is no negotiating. who are these guys, what are they talking about on the floor? >> those are called special orders, they happen every night. sometimes a few people on the floor, most time not many, a opportunity to have debate between two sides, sometimes. neil: there is no one to debate with, you debate with the chair. >> pretty much it has been going on for longer than i've been here, and i've been here 12 years. neil: john carter thank you very much. good having you, wilbur ross. billionaire investor. he finds value i dead bes and leads ni thin me to think he shd invest in washington.

you are just fed up with the whole system, the way it is? >> well, i think it is tragic. united states is neither a monarchy or a dictatorship, but it is showing some signs of trying to act that way. it is just the wrong way to govern. linden johnson, bill clinton, ronald reagan did not govern that way. neil: who is at fault here? >> i think to some degree everyone. but at the end of the day, if this ceo of big company, went into default because he would not negotiate with the labor unions who should get fired? the board, or the ceo? neil: do you think we're going into default. >> that is correct. and i think the immediate impact of the shut -- so-called shut down is very manageable. neil: do you think that republicans brought this upon themselves by insisting to

defunding obamacare? >> the subject matter may be obamacare. i think that real question is how are you going do govern? you need leadership to govern, legislative -- >> would you fall the leadership a among republicans? >> well, i think that ceo of the cotry is to blame for break downs in -- >> is there anyone out there you see who is up to and future years just? >> probably is, one good thing about having a big crisis is that is where the real leadership tends -- >> you think it still out there, a lot of people say america is down for the count, you are a big patriot. do you think they are out there? >> look at, england. before world war ii, winston churchhill was kicked out of -- >> a good point. >> a big crisis came. neil: where are our winston

churchills is chris christie one? >> he might be, there are any number of people, right now, real issue is, is leadership from the white house. and. neil: they are not showing it and. >> it has to be negotiation. i don't think that real issue is obama care. i think that real issue is will we negotiate between the house of government that democrats control the house that republicans do. and the president, i if we don'. neil: game over, wilbur ross thank you very much. wire live this week by the way on saturday, on this mess, government shut down continues, we're there, we got your back, we're there, we got your back, we're looking out for y customer erin swenson ordered shoes from us online but they didn't fit. customer's not happy, i'm not happy. sales go down, i'm not happy. merch comes back, i'm not happy. use ups. they make returns easy. unhappy customer becomes happy customer. then, repeat customer. easy returns, i'm happy.

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"money" with melissa francis. melissa: i'm melissa francis and here's what's "money" tonight. could billionaire bill gates be pushed out of the microsoft? some of the company's biggest instors are pressing for him to step dowof the it is all the word on wall street.

we have all the inside details. plus, is there a definitive price on peace in the middle east? fox's national security expert, kt mcfarland just met with iranian president hassan rouhani and she's here to help calculate the cost of the u.s. trying to befriend him. forget "who made mon today", this guy just saw more than $300 million go right up in flames. can't figure out who it is? stay tuned and find out. even when they say it's not, it is always about money.