speaking of senator tom coburn and letting her read. welcome, i am no computer. he says instead of dealing with acally have to deal with actually have to deal with us, out-of-control debt and no plan to get it under control anytim soon. the senator here is with me now. senator, it is good to have you.

>> thank you for having me speak you cutting to the core, not blowing any smoke, it is about a thing called spending. but has that been lost on us all? >> did he raise the debt limit, it will get worse. we have got to unfunded liabilities. we are $50 trillion in the hole versus our net assets and that is impossible for our kids and grandkids. so we ought to be talking about how to be reform the government to live within our means and get on a plan where we will not have to have the debt limit increases. or we ca have that limit

decreases the one but when they say they are holding the overnment hostage, in the meantime, what he stated that? >> well, let's see, we are holding the government hostage becauue we agree with the vast majority of american people that washington is out of control and spending money that it doesn't have athing to the american people don't need. and we are attributing that 10 or 12%. if that is hostage holding, i plead and on one has to do not kick the can down the road on making hard decisions. raising the debt limit out making the hard decisio, it lets the politicians off and they don't have to make these choic. i'm sitting in our country it's time for us to make hard choices neil: i just want to be very clear. you equate this as going into

default? in the meantime? >> that is absolutelytrue. movies have evn said so today and moody says that it will not affect our rating. and it is not going past the debt limit, we areot ever going to default on our interest payments. we are nt going to do that. what i think we oht to do is start acting ike grownupsand live within our means like every other american does. you know, do you realize that most pe the privilege of being great spenders and then going to chase or bank of america or citi card and saying where is my debt limit rse, they won't do it? and they shouldn't be doing it either because what we are doing is we don't get too make hard choices today and terefore we aree going to lowe the standard of iving.

and right now the median family income is at the same level that was in 1989 and we are going backwards. so now is the time to start addressing this. but we were sent up here to fix problems and not make ore. without fixing what is really wrong, the waste, fraud, we are not doing our country any favors. what we are doing is watching out for our own backside in saying that we couldn'tix it. i'm past seven i want to fix it. neil: many in the house and senate for that matter, that they are trying push those funding obamacare and push the nation to this brink are you saying that this is not a big deal? >> obamacare is funded -- it

just was added to. there is nobody up here, the vast majority of politicians do t want to make these choices to fix our country because they may not get reelected. most people are going to vote you back in 80 stand up and make the hard choices and then our country is at risk and who cares about the politicians spew on it is other measures moving around with a clean spending will build through the next midterm election next year. and he would not sign on to that. is that right? >> a clean spending bll at 38 billion higherhan what we promised amercans in 2011, no. i would not. again, we are lying to the children about what the truth of what is in the bill.

it is 38 billion more than what we said we would do. and we don't even have the courage to be honest with the american people about what we are doing the want strong words, senator. thank you so much. >> see latr. neil: on now to austan goolsbee. he makes a lot of good points. but theockery thawe keep raisin the spending. someone has to stop the smear ground. >> when he talks about the long-run fiscal challenges facing theountry, he really does have this as his major focus. many others in the republican pay congeal arund this, where tom coburn was involved in the debate and discussions about the

grand bargain. if we would've had that discussion about how do we address long-term spending and long-term revenue and would be a healthy disussion which no other economy in the world that i know of. neil: he did just what senator corn said, the burden is on the back of our children and grandchildren. america deserves better. >> i have seen people say that. but the reason that isay that is a confused argument is when he made that statement to vote against the debt ceiling, democrats did previous

incidents never an impending that do and how do you know that that will happen now? you know that hitting that deadline doesn't mean that you are going into the pole. >> that is why specified to text. that they would be able to prioritize payments and not default on treasury bonds and th would be a catastrophic event as we all now. there is no seniority in and the government bill, so it is a questionable legality whether they would be able to legally just say that we are going to pay some of the government bills but not to be immediately se by the millions of peoplthat

are not getting paid. they wold say we are getting paid and they could prioritize the payment. then they have to defaulton a domestic obligation like not pay social security orthe mility or the nursing homes. this is a catastrophic event that will set us back. neil: we argue that wedeserve this. >> that is not why. >> i dn't think we deserve a aaa rating. >> you know that i love you, you know that i do. but you're totally wrong on that. neil: what makes you think that this kin of shifting back and forth,, what makes yu think that we deserve the most pristine cred rating.

>> if you look at the debt content that vastly the u.s. economy, i is vastly in excess of anywhere where we are with our gut level. neil: because you kep printing and we have a bigger printing press. spent it's not a sauna. but if we look at our debt lev the low tax levels and the low spending levels, eve where they are projected to go in the future,. >> what do you mean? >> the thing that makes no sense about this is in the immediate run, government spending and theris a share of gdp. the one when you talk about the rates coming down, down tothe eye level, it's like telling this guy who weighs 500 pounds

and you have lost 50 pounds and you are rocketing. until your mind him that you are 460 pounds. >> our debt levels are nowhere near the equivalent of being a 500 pound man. >> no, not because he's better off. >> what he said is that we should have a grand argain. the. neil: we will get past this crisis again. it will robably be something that we keep doing. t anyway, it is good for you. >> good to talk to you. neil: an analogy to him is like a silly point. even though the government shutdown, the nsa is ramping things

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neil: a lot of folks are distracted by the debt ceiling today. a new report says remember when the nsa could monitor up to 75% of all internet traffic

everywhere? well, it was a magic nmber, t hangs onto it for 75 years. so like i am 25 and that is a long time. which i'm not. ventfive years is the accurate figure and katrina pearson sa this i bad. the heth care licensing privacy concerns as well. can you agine hanging on to that stuff just in case hurricane katrina and neil cavuto do something? [applause] >> oneay w might just walk off our rocker and do something horrible. this is an entire lifetime and the government is storing data on individuals in this country and it was formed to have a free and open society. and the top priorities include upholding and protecting the rights of the people in both of those topics are being very poorlygoverned today,

specifically with privacy. people in this country, united states citizens have a right to privacy including the internet. neil: a friend of mine actually has one%neil: a friend of mine y has one of these security clearance factors and he a pretty big deal. including three and a half million americans who ha the security clearance like edward snowden and the like and said that has been in place a wild. and in act the has to a forever clause or they could hang onto it at nottingham and someone said that we ought to put a number to it. i don't know if this is actually how it went don. and they just said that 75 was a number. i just think it's weird. where are you storing it and to what end? >> how many congssmen have

gone to their situationste and taled about this in 2014 needs to be the boundaries. we are going to have to hold theseentities accountable for we areoing to restore faith in government t run the nsa, full funded, because it is considered vital to our security and keeping a hang onto it for so long, i get a little anxious. >> you should be. the american public should be. we need to get congress to campaign on ending ts type of government intrusion and do what they were sworn to do. we should get our congress to push the nsa, very single

american in writing like they do compaes when your privacy you're privacy may have been violated and let them know that their particular phone or ipad has been seized by the american government and demanded a debate publicly on the tpic see one katrina, you make so much good sense. very snd ideas. there is nothing offensive about this. thank you so much. in the meantime, maybe these guys should check this out. a way for people to save money duringhe shutdown. we will have that

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♪ ♪ ♪ neil: there was a reason that we us this video. for the life of me, i cannot remember. the apparently the wrapper nelly says people shouldn't have to pay taxes until the government reopees. the maybe just imagine the word. >> if everyone else is shutting down, i mean, what doyou think? >> i think it's a great idea. he should ru for the federal office now are least take the campaign up to really get rid f it. since the government shutdown, we shoulln't be paying. let's get rid of the irs, let's shut tt down.

[laughter] >> you are saying give tm a little bit of nelly. >> all i can ay is that nelly obviously s enough memory power to remember his lyrics. he seems to be forgetting his neighbors that he grew up in the inner city and st. louis. because it is great for nelly was maki why, a million bucks a day? not so much for his grandmother who is on social security.

neil we are avoiding going into fall the best we can. but it's not ideal, but i think it's good because it's making us take a look at what really is a central. of course, we want to make sure that they are taken care of it. but it is making congress work. neil: i thought austan goolsbee did a pret good job. where the conversationends to go off his the full faith and credit of the united states. il: so u would continue pay that. >> this is a part of it. >> we ould pay the debt, but we are talking about this government. and it's not all. it's not just a portion of who would get paid from the government. you would agree with me, i know, that this entire debt ceiling,,

and it's t raise camino that costs are going up and it will be something tht will definitely go up. >> what happens when interest rates go up? our economy goes the wrong way. and why would we want to do this. neil: this includes a lot of other issues that we didn't see very long go. but to your point, nother combo menu if you let me finish. we do give it a level of uncertainty, like a pox on both your houses. you think that is a possibility? >> and it's good that the republicans are standing stong. if we don't make a statement here -- >> we need to fight bcae

that. neil: you are not a looking step in order stylish? >> no. neil: we keepgoing through this charade. with the promise that we ar going to get around to addressing it. >> we do to some degree. i would agree with you in part. we don't do enough and it is unfortunate that the grand bargain we talkabout a few years ago fell apart. d i think that we should go back to looking at it again, although it will never happen as a grand bargain. but it's good to a point. because we carry it too far right now. >>e never carrit or not. >> there is a reason for that because it would carry it to the ultimate conclusion, it destroys the economy. neil: buness as usual is what got us into this.

>> watch the ovement if it goes in this direction. >> i absolutely do not endorse it. if you want to do things a different ay, it is giving away what you want. we have a system for that. neil: in the meantime, we are going another trillionollars in debt. >> that could be a. >> buti imagine it could apply to 2014. >> okay. neil: is not a political appointment. we have to make a statement of what we are leaving our children and grandchildren.

>> the right way you go about this. neil: i believe in th american system. if you want to change things, like people. >> nothing has been working, so why don't we try thi >> we are at the point a lot of americans are saying ty at. >> they are not saying that. they really arenot. >> both are getting blamed, but e negatives are coming. >> they say that younger americans are upset. they have no money and don't care. >> let's say nelly for president.

[laughter] neil: anyway, congress gives money away to big bird, almost anything else and for instance walking down the world war ii walking down the world war ii memorial is any last reqsts mr. baldwin? do you mind grabbing my phone and opening the capital one puhase eraser? i need to redeem some venture miles before my demise. okay. it's easy to erase any recent traveexpense i want. just pick that flight right there. mmm hmmm. give it a few taps, and...it'saken care of. this is pretty easy, and i see it works on hotels too. you bet. now if you like tt, press the red button on top. ♪ how did he not see that coming? what's in your wallet?

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neil: something that i would like to throttle him. the day of the government shutdown. cookie monster and his friend order friday and trens. the money was to keep people away from the memorial. they were even paying money for combs on the road leading to mount rushmore.

we have jesse ames were ncerned veterans of america. what you make of this? because it is a clear double standard and declring one. >> it is so hypocritical to see th on the backs of our veterans that we were keeping the memorial peed. this was a freedom of working and we we shut out freedom. these eterans have served honorably and many of their friends are dead and to discard their service way that they have is just appalling. fohundred $45 million down the drain for the cookie monster is just appalling to me. nei it always comesback to democrats saying this is what happens. deal with it. it's not pleasant, it's not right. this is what republicans have placed it on so what do you hink?

>> the military act was passed by the house and senate. yet they manage not to pay the death benefit. but now they have come forward to provide the funding for the death benefit and that was not the intention when they say it pay our military action and that is all benefits and pay for the miiitary and those who have died on active duty. i'm appalled that anyone is suggesting that ths is what they are doing. we have freedom that we still enjoy every sngle day see one aovernment shutdown, ther are people who ironically are hit and server country. but tey are giving a lot to the country. but these are the consequences of shutting down the government. using the process of shutting down the government, and no

matter who you blame, prioritizing one group's grief over another, that there has to be another way? >> there has to be a better way and that is what we call the american people for her, calling them to elect better people. we nee to take a look at our government and make our choices serioly. we have a responsibili to make that change. >> i think of heroes like yo when you jump into a foxhole, you don't think that they come together. but now they won't talk to one another. and on either side starts a press conference and begin to rip the other side anyone, i woul love to send all of these guys to bed. buyou can't do tha.

what is your ilitary type that you would mete out for those who aren't congress or the white house, are acting like this? >> in the military this would not be stood fr. unfortunately we cannot apply that here. when you have a cngress congress and senate to ep their gem open soues their own pay, it seem absurd. neil: that's a very goo point. thank you so much for coming on the shw. neil: thank you for coming. remember when this gro was accused of stashinca overseas? >> somewhere you are dividing up for parks overseas. you cannot invest in plant facilities here. neil: this jus in, it was all

completely legal.

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>> we don't depend on tax limits and we don't use intellectual property offshore end-user to center property back to the united states to avoid taxes. we don't testimony on a caribbean island, we pay all the taxes that we all, every single dollar. il: dear member whenti was dragged up to capitol hill? hitting his goose cooked? it turns out that he was right and congress was wrong. ending the 102 billion-dollar cash sending overseas is perfectly legal. the issue is certainly all of this money overseas.

they are dodgingaxes and it turns out that was not the case. apple had cited i guessbecause they had so much money. but what do you make of this? i think it is basic lack f economic understanding on the part of congress. so what are your thoughts? >> that is part of it. i think the other part is it seems to me that apple dared to be a successful company. and decided to do things that were intelligent in terms of the way it ra its business and expanded and global market and demanded his money so that it can burn the greatest value to the greatest number of people. but they did not pay homage to the beltway. so somebody had to get called on the carpet for that. neil: were you cognizant with lobbying and working with capitol hill and doing dinners

with these guys committed you feel that pressure? >> i did none of that while was there. apple was in serious trouble and all of my energy went into the foundations of pple in geting it back on track. i just didn't have time to send this out and i actually had some members of the administration call me and ask if i could send somebody to fix them, the apple macs computer. , which we did. nl: i want t get your reaction and the administration is you quite often. >> as in the case with the apple iphne, we fix the

problem and they moved forward and that is what we are doing. >> that is the dumbest analogy i've ever heard. there is no choice of exising shutdown. people would gladly pa for something, even a premium for something it seems worth it for th. what do you think? >> it is all about the service and the quality of what is being provided a products. there is a mandate what you have to do this we are violated in the have to go off and that is the fundamental issueehere. that is where the ridiculous analogy is so wrong. people do have a choice. and everyone is trying to ake sure that the products are ready for prime time, that they rk right and so forth. and how many times have you heard on occasion some company comeout with a product that is

defective and how embarrassed they re. but think the obama administration would be a little bit more humble by that fat. neil: yes, the were making sure that youre ready for it. everyone expects glitches and that is natural. but these are the magnitude that go w beyond this. and i think that people expect with the success of your going to be readfor that lauuch. >> my experience has been that management is not the stron suit of the political quest. %-making hard decisions and i really don't think that we shod be mixing those two things because if you do one right, you do the other poorly. neil: well said.

and the analogy, they keep pushing. i know. health care is no apple. so four years ago, something the president said when he won the nobel

neil: i love this portion of the show when we go back in time and you can hear what someone said. four years ago, president obama won a nobel peace prize for his extraordinary efforts between people. we are re-raing the pe with

how he sounded then versus now. >> people need to define the way that we did find one another. there are no negotiations. complex resolutions, mutu interests and respect. i will not negotiate or congress' responsilitynd we must all do our part two resolve these conflicts. >> there is a consistent pattern. there is some consistency. anyway, hadley heath says the president doesn't sound nonpeaceful. a little bit less than transparent. he does have a standard for dealing with when prices versus another crisis. peceful overtures in one area, not so much in another. what do you think that message is sending your?

>> i think many people, including those who supported the president, they are disappointed with his lack of leadship now. his current aproval ratingat 37% because he's using inflamed rhetoric. neil: congress' approval rating is at 5% but i ll agree with this on, continue. >> well, when he started out as a politician when it came to this in 2008 in 2009 as a young president, he was the person bringing the message of hope and change from washington that washington wouldn't do business as usual and now we see that there is really the same things happening in washington as always. disagreement with a lack of leadership. neil: when you make overtures abroad, you ave to be very consistent. let's say you're going to be a peacemaker, that is going to be the stamp and you're sort of dna no matter what you do. you're always trying to reach out to the other side. abe lincoln comes to mind on

that. george washington, you could even argue that john kennedy, the way that he would deal with some of these domestic issues and tryingo be forthright and consistent as he was dealing with the soviets. the very inconsistent with this president so far. absolutely, if i had some words for the presiden i would encourage him just to consider his legacy. great american presidents from the past. when we look back at this moment in time, will be remembered as president as someone who could broker a del or understand americans elect different representatives cause americans have different values, or ill he be the person who went on for far too long because of his failure toring people together? >> well put. thank you so much. neil: you buy sommone a cup of coffe ad you have a free cup ofoffee for yourself if you go to starbks. so i can reach ally bank 24/7, but there are no branches? 24/7.

i'm sorry, i'm just really reluctant to try new things. really? what's wrong with trying new things? look! mommy's new vacuum! you feel that in your muscles? i do... drink water. it's a long story well, not having branches let's give you great rates and service. i'd like that. a new way bank. a better way to save. ally bank.

neil: you y a cup of coffee for someone else you get a free cup of coffee is deal is an encouraging customers to watch out for one other it is the clever strategy whether arbucks need to deal or it is capitalizing on a crisis? >> it is genius from the p.r. standpoint. it changes the way we spend money on a coffee and it is a grassroots effort on their part. but it just helps them but wh botherse is random acts of kindness has to be contrived. we have lost our ability to help one another than naturally. maybe bring severe cuts together but it doesn't help washington but it does help the stock. i like starbucks. neil: but it is stupid if

you by someone else a cup of coffee you obviously send th message i want to free one for myself you have nothing to lose in you come out smelling like a rose or aa cappuccino. >> the guy at the end of the line doesn't have to do anything eventually that deal stops. neil: that this is liberalism something for nothing. >> does congress even go to starbucks will they take advaage of the offer? they play by different rules sam probably drink different coffee. neil: good point. mortgage applications are rising 1.3%. now will the shutdown refers ntum? we hear that it will because fha delays because of processing. what do you think? >> it has become arduous. fha loans sometimes takes 45

for 60 days to close. i don't think the shutdown will affect the housing market the mortgages are on the rise because rates have come down sharply. the ttom line is look at the long bond is not predicting aebt ceiling failure as well as a default so for now does not affect the housing market. >> is that a legitimate fear? >> it is. people don't want to spend money when there is uncertainty but jared makes a good point there rates have come back down but the housing market is supply a demand their reason mortgages have this supply and demand but when they start to decrease the people will go after the rising prices at home. neil: what abt those stocks as a group? >> i am still a broad buyer

i like the of lumber companies but they think they are on shaky grod only 500,000 people are out of work and then paid proactively but that is why the market could over the next five months. ♪ neil: day you hear that? it is time for the nightcap. before they go to bet what they should focus on tomorrow. what refocusing dylan? >> the initial jobless claims numbers. we have the monthly employment data and that my company is part of that survey so thank you for not calling the last month. initial jobless claims take a weekly snapshot that number is out tomorrow at 8:30 a.m. eastern and watch that closely. >> afterhe bell tomorrow of big technological end

rert also sales numbers are reported looking at what the consumer is doing over the next couple weeks. neil: you mentioned the employment report we quite don't know what the economy is doing we have craft data with consumer sentimentut the big granddaddy will be substantially delayed when it comes then backing up with another. do you feel you are swimming in the murky water n quite sure how deep or rothesay are? >> i am surprised the market has held up as well as a has we did not have that anyways a you throw it out. but who knowsof that will even be accurate. >> does that look good zero or medium? >> again the focus needs to

be on earnings but what we will do is pay more attention to what the ceo is teing us, imagine that flying over your head. melissa is next. melissa: i'm melissa francis a here's what's "money" tonight. sac's stevie cohen could cop a plea and could admit criminal wrongdoing with the insider ading scandal for the sec. it could be a wake-up call on wall street. we have the latest developments on that that one. a complete market being makeover for the ad industry. making commercials into viral videos. willerrell's new dodge durango ads are the talk of the town. they're hilarious. we'll tell you why this campaign is one to watch. "who made money today?" they turned down a multibillion-dollar offer because they didn't like the way it looked but they're coming out on top and t