that is our show. see you nt time. ♪ with the deadline nearing, lawmakers scrambling to reach a deal over the debt ceiling. without one, docrats predicting disaster. >> avoid a potential cataclysm is to pass t budget now. >> it would be dangerous to our economy. >> uertainty is for any economy. >> crashing the global economy. >> even se ceos and banks saying that no debt deal will be a very raw deal for the economy and the markets. but some here sadon't buy it. so who's right? hi, everyone. i'm bnda buttner. this is "bulls and bears."

herehey are. we have gary b. smith, jonas farris, john layfield, larry glazer, and sasha burns. larry, failure to reach a d dea wot mean the endf the world? >> brenda, enough with the scare tactics. look, i know it' almost halloween. but the american people are sick and tired of being frightened into supporting mindless and endless government spending. look, not raing the debt ceiling not the same as a default. there's plenty of revenue to make interest and principle payments and to keep our accountscurrent. this is nedless frightening of the american pele, and they are not going to stand for it. they are fatigued. >> all right. sasha, are you frightened? >> you know, you're the first person i've hrd that has said that with a straight face. am i concerned? no. because i know that at the end of the day, the republicans are going to overcome theob rule of the teaarty and come up with a solution to keep the -- to keep us from defaulting.

it is not just democrats saying this. it is ceos, the coke brothers, the chamber of commerce. it's every large business. it's the small businesses tha say don't do this short-term x-week relief because then it's right at thanksgiving that we'll have all of the uncertainty. financial apocalypse is what experts call this. >>ut, gary b., we don't fault if we hit the debt ceiling. we bring in lots more revenue, and we canay our bills if we prioritize spending. what do you think? >> well, sasha was questiing larry's straight face answer. and i'm kind of questioning why she'suestioning that. larryoints out we take in a lot more revenue to pay the interest on our debt, almost times the amount. so it' kind of like you get a edit card bill. you might not be able to pay off all o the bills, if you can pay the interest you can paythat.

and then the queion becomes, what are you going to do with the rest of your bis? well, like any family, you have to priorite. that's what i've seen th the government shutdown, if you will. even though everyone thinks the whole government is shut down, we are still paying about 80% of the fees out there, governmentally. it's really only 20% cut down. so we prioritized. maybe with an axn this case, but we did it. and that's what would happen with the whole debt ceiling. >> jonas, would this hurt the economy, though? >> yeah, because tt assumes the government behaves like a rational household or business, and is like, let's just pay the t-bill interest and forget about yellow stone. that's not how it's going to go down. they'll just default for no reason when they could have afforded the payments. they've already said they are going to do that. no industry wille hit harder than financial services if we go over ts cliff. for nother reason than, first of all, the whole fdic insurance they operate under, is that even

good anymore if they can't kep raising the debt ceiling? and they are making car loans today a 3%. if all of a sudden their capital cos go to 5% because were not paying t-bills, thr whole business model is upse dow i could be vryervous for the banks as a financial adviser. customers and investors are scared about going over this cliff, real or imagine >> joh are you scared? >> look, i'm scared about deult. i don't think it's going to happen. these ceos were not blaming the republicicans. they were blaming all of washington, d.c. remember reagan dealt with the democrats. clinton dealt with the republicans. this administration, there are no adults right now in washingtond.c. take default off the table. do you have th venue, like larry and gary said, the revenue to take that off the table. the government shutdown is one thing. and that's bad enough. look, the real crime here, don't forget the government shutdown. thoseederal, furlough employees will probably get back

pay. those people who have vendors anoperators at national parks, they can't pay their rent. this is a crime perpetrated by severapeople. boehner, reid,nd president obama against the small guy out there because they can't get along. it is sgraceful. >> you know, larry, the markets really are hoping and betting that the will be a deal, because they reay went u when there s any sn of thawing in the talks between the white house and congress. >> that's right, brenda. well, to jonas' point, if the market sensed that a default was imminent and the cataclysm was upon us, they would have sold off dramatally. you would have seen armageddon in the bond market. you didn't see that. financials were resilient this week despite the challenging news. i think we recognize the fact that we started with a scary backdrop, a weak economy, and it's yet to reay grow. retail sales were slow in september and october well before this even happened. so we can't attribute all of

those things to the fact that there's en a government shutdown. but certainly we know we'll be right back in this situation if we don addss the long-term fiscal challenges we can't keep spending more money, but we're not going to get out of the hole or out of this date. and what the american people don't want to hr is another conversation like this. they want to rip the band-aid off and take the pain n and deal with it so we can get the economy moving and not have this as an annual occurrence every time. >> jonas, you said that you were worried about the economy,and that a lot of your clients are worried about the market. do you think the market is going to take a big hit? it has arenn't so far. >> there has been some disruption if u look at it. but in general, nothing horrible has happened because at the end of the day, goldman sachs has more power than the tea party. and they'll decide they want the limit raised, and we're not going to go over it. but the pshychological damage being done. investigators aren't confide, and don't want to put money into the market.

that's what i worry about, not even a real dfaul but we psyche ourselves into it >> well, gary b., what do you think? is the sky goi to fall if we hit the debt ceiling? >> i can'tpeak for jonas' clients, but i'm not seeing the same thing. we just put together a couple of days in the market, the best da we've had in a year almost. what were we up thursday, like 300 points? if there's fear out there a pshological damage that jonas talks about, i'm just not seeing it. if this is psychological damage, i think we're pretty well f right now. what do you think? you were frightened earlier. >> i wouldn't say i'm frightened because i'm still going with the ct that some sensible ople are going to come together. but we all know that uncertainty is bad for markets, and this whole discussion about the debt ceiling and short-term and this happened two years ago, it's terrible for the economy. you know, you guys know it. you're republicans but you know

it is terrible for the economy. >> gary b. doesn't think so. >> whoa. first of all, don't label me as a republican. i am a proud libertarian, for crying out loud. second of all, i -- maybe it's bad for the economy. i don't think uncertainty as you say, sasha, is bad for the market. the mid caps, i think, and the mdy, this could put it at an all-time high. so the market is performing actually pretty well. i think it welcomes this uncertainty, as long as the government stays on the sideline. >> gary b., i'm going to steal some tape where it's bad for the markets from another show where you schooled me on that. >> please understand who you're talking to when you're calling names. gary is the libertarian. i'm atrong independent. president obama in 2006 said it was irresponsible when bush was raising the debt ceiling. now all of a sudden, he has accrued mountas of debt and says it's irresponsible not to raise the debt ceiling. this is politics as usual in washington, d.c. there's no leaders or adults.

it's disgraceful. >> that's the last word to john layfie. well, you've seenhese signs. why the cavuto team says republicans may panicking because you're not. and spite the shutdown, the irs is still collecting you tax money and still gearing up to enforce the health care law. time to shut that do? right now, keep it on the fox

news channel, the most powerful

news channel in the nation after all the glitches, republan senator pat roberts telling health and human seices secretary it's time to ditch. he wants her resignation. but is the bigger target the controversy the woman who wil be in charge of enforcing the heal care law? sarah halli ingram is under fir for reportedly sharing confidential information with the white house during that taetinscandal. and you say it'sime to take the irs out of the healt care picte. >> that's right. get rid of all of them. does this surprise anybody that the irs is being used as a political weapon by the obama administration? the obama administration is only the latest administration because they are the ones currently in power. the irs hasn used as a political weapon since jay ear hoover. they have been -- look at what they he done th year. targeting the certain conservative groups. and now sharing confintial infoation. this ionly what we're finding

out. so ty have been -- you ask anybody. does the irs target people because of polical affiliations? and they will te you yes. you want to put them in charge of bra obama care? that's a horrible idea. >> sasha, do you agree? >> you know, john, if you ask anybody if they thin that it's political, then i think that there are a lot of people who was say that it wasn't. maybe not republicans or independents, but i'm sorry, i did not mean to insu you fore. but, no, i -- >> if a republican was in charge, e democrats would say, look, this is politics as usual. it's not partisan. >> there's a joke that some hostage takers sai that they think it's hurtful they are being compared to the tea party, which i really like. but that aside, the irs, ingram who is in charge of it, the information that she provided to the white house d not go to political staff. it went to people who are

overseeing the implementation of obama care, which had to do with religious formation and ntraceptive care. so the iormation was whether or not the organization is religiouy affiliated or an acal oanization. she did not provide any confidential information. >> gary b., do you think the irs should have any place in the enforcement of obama care? i mean, there have been scandals. >> i agree with you, brenda. here is the problem. john points out the irs has been used by both sides for quita long time. i think the problem is with the way that this administration is enforcing obama care, we have already seen the tone and the vindictiveness quiteonestly with what we did with the national parks. closing parks that were -- tt ran on private money.

closing parks where there has not been a natiol parks service person aund for years. i mean, it was horrible and vindictiven order to get their way. lo, th irs is a scary organization, whether that's all bluster or whether it's in reality. people are scared of the irs. so you're kind of coming in with a, you know, ss kind of organization to enforce this. i think it's going to scary for a lot of people. i think it will be vindictive for a lot of people. so this adminiration makes sure that th are, quote, unquote, right. >> jonas, do you think there are worse alternatives? >> first of all, let's just say we're a few days away from the extension deadline. if you think i'm goingto say anything bad about t irs rit now- >> yore the only oneho won't get audited, jonas. >> they are not the ss. theyre hard-working, good government servants. but lo at -- how else is the federal government going to enforce this? do you not the dea? plan a drone strike over you? how about the fbi? who's left who's better than the irs to enforce it?

if it was my balto play, i would said you're not eligle for medicare until you're 70 and get the irs out of it. but, yay, irs. october 15, look for me, i love you. >> i don't know, larry. maybe nobody should be in charge of enforcing it. >> the only occupation with a lower approval rating than politicians are irs agents. and i'm afraid m going to go home and there's going to be an auditor at my first job just for commenting on is. >> they are furloughed. >> but when you start to concentrate power and give confidential information to on branch of government, and it can be used as a political weapon, it's scary. and you don't know where it's going to end. you have to nip it in the b, and revaluate this enforce. mechanism or we'll have problems later on. i lose sleep over this. i don't like where it's going. >> oh, come on larry. have a good night's sleep. all right. from detroit to south of the border, what baed out chrysler just did that may drive =yedtdyj

u.s. taxpayers bailed them out,ow chrysler is spending $1.2 billion to expand and eate jobs in, get this, mexico. now ironically, the car maker stillwes u.s. taxpayers $1.3 billion, and gary b., you say to you so. >> exactly, brenda. i think anyone watching this uld be outraged. but not outraged at chrysler. look, chrysler did what any good corporate entity should do. they saw a sweetheart deal.

they took it. they ranith it. they are gng to enhance their own and. the outrage should be directed at the government. once again, ce again, enda. weat here years ago and said that government should t bail out private companies. th shouldn't be giving to money to chrysler or any of these companies that theydid. they did it. they crowed about it. and now the chickens are coming home to roost. >> well, shouldn't chrysler be using the monethat it's extending to mexico, essentially, and paying us back? >> you know, when i first read this, i absolute agreed, brenda. and i still n't like it. the bailout is the worst thing that could happen, except all of the other ternatives, ght? but the reality is, chrysler llc has paid everything back. the $1.3 billion is about the old company that's left over after they declared bankruptcy. it's not the current one mostly owned by fiat. this is globalization. they he created jobs in the

u.s. they have put billions into the u.s. but they alsoake parts in other countries. toyota makes some here. it's jt reality. we might not like , but it is. >> larry, do you like it? >> i d't like it at all. i'm ashamed, not because i own one chrysler car but i own two chrysler cars. look, one ofhich is a minivan perhs i should trade it in and buy a toyota made in indiana because i'll be doing more to help the u.s. economy. look, the unw still owns 40% of this. for all of you workers, you're effectively outsourcingour own jobs to mexico right now. and the chrysler slogan was imported from detroit. theyre going to have to change that, obviously, to imported from mexico going forward. >> john, do you have any trouble with this? >> no, i don't. i'm like gary b. i have a problem with wat the govement did. rememb, the government gave a lot of money to battery makers to put those facilities in the united states. they moved those to cha. i had a real problem with that because they didt enforce that. the government did here is

lose $1.3 billion in the stock buyback or sales to chrysler. ey can take their plants wherer they want. this is globalization. what everybody is sang about free markets is like. whether you like the jobs going to mexico or not, if that's the way the company rs best, that's what they should do. >> what should they be doing, jonas? what do you think? >> that was a big fear when the government gave all theoney out that they would have this hot phon and be like, your new ca have to be powered by liquid tofu, and that didn't happen. they didn't put a plant in d.c. where all of the politicians are. they are operating independently. yeah, we lost 10% of our money. that isn't as good as the nk bailout where we made money. but for theovernment to lose only 10% of their money on any deal, that's a win as far as i'm concerned. they are operating independently. let it go. >> lt word to larry. >> perhaps we could have used those 6,500 jobs that were sent to mexico in detroit. after all, chryslerade a commitment after detroit's bankruptcy to invest and hire. that's something that they are

early not doing in this case. ok. last word. you keep that minivan, larry? all right. >> i ashamed on a lot of levels about that minivan. thank you, sasha, for joining us. >> thank you. so here's to proving the hips don't lie for one company, this right he is the closet we were in.

that was the only thing left of the house. the only thing. red oss helped us and they've literally got us back on our feet huge outpouring of love just going, "people care." we didn't come out of there saying, "wow, we lost everything!" we came out of there huing each other, glad that we were okay.

predictions. gary b., what do you like? >> i've been scouring the universe for stocks for jonas'

nervous client proctor and gamble is the one i like. the i think the stock is up 30% in the next six months. >> bull or bear? >> i'm a bear by the toothpick not the stock. >> your prediction, larry? >> sweeter than free money from the fed, hershey stock unwraps a 20% profit in six months. >> john, wha do you think? you can't not like chocolate. >> love chocolate. but i'm a bear unfortunately on hershey's. >> and yr prediction? >> hips don't lie. shakira is now endorsg t-mobile. the stock isp 20% in a year. >> you wanted to see shakira, right? that's all. >> that's the only reason i did that prediction. your prediction, jonas? >> the government shutdown means micro brewers can't get approved to launch, which is goodor the macro brews likeoors tap up 15% in a year.

>>ary b., bull or bear? >> i love shakira. that's all i'm going to say. brewing up a great debate. ca-neil cavu "cavuto on business." shutdown panic because taxpayers aren't panicking. chars payne in for neil cavuto. and so much for all of those cones and barricades because the partial governmenthutdown getting hyped for bringing the pain doesn't look too painful a lot of americans. so asife goes on, can america move on with a smaller government? ben stein, david dowell, and gary k. >> all evidence is we're a ok. we have hundreds of thousands of furloughs. we're still running just fine. for me, i've been saying for years. the bottom line is government is an overbloated blob with too much waste. if i got in