that to me, it got kicked hard but now they are coming back. i love emerging markets. >> i le it as well but i love you better. lace for business.ntinues fox. ♪ ♪ so forget about all the rhetoric and the wrangling in d.c. get to the heart of the debt battle. out-of-control entitlement spending. the biggest chunk of the budget by far. republicans leers say if don't deal with it, we will never stop raising the debt limit. some liberal democrats drawing a line in the sand, saying don't touch entitlements ever. so who is right? hi, everybody. i'm david asman. welcome to "forbes on fox." steve forbes, rick unger, mike, bill baldwin, sabrina schaefer, hn tandy. $2 trillion out of a $3.5 trillion budget. more than the majority. how do you avoid dealing with it? >>ventually you will have deal with it. won't be done now, simply

because there is not a mandate to do it. you set the stage for it; such as, having accounts for younger people in social security, change the delivery of healthcare, do it in a positive way. you set the ground work. you won't make headway with the congress. shoot for 2014 and 2016. >> rick, should entitlements be off the table entirely? >> i don't think they should i'm not one of those liberals. i would love to see the focus shift to where they are look at entitlements in terms of cleaning it up. it should be a constant reform all the time. weed out the people who may take advantage, so we havehe money for the people who legitimately need the help. >> let's talk about people taking advantage. federal disability programs arjust totally out of control. we have all kind of abuse and fraud. 25of the cases are called, "inappropriately dcide" isn't that a place to start? >> yeah, that would be a place to start. i just don't want the republicans to do it in their typical ro canal way where th talk about deficits and

how the couny is going to come crashing down. talk about it as an opportunity. say here i a way to pay down social securitas in gve people a way toopt out of it and have their own personal accounts. here is also aay to grow the economy, to pay off the onerous promises. thproblem is republicanset fixated on deficits and voters don't believe them. >> sabrina, we have all the promises that we have made. $60 trillion by the wayf unfunded promises that we hav made. we have to de with entitlements at some point. that is at the heart of the debt crisis. >> we do. we spend 60% of the federal program on the progm. cial security, medicare and medicaid. but we need to do in a way that is strategic. american peoe want to see the programs survive and do it in a way that do n destroy the economy or crush them with taxation. we did research that found this is a great way to increase popular suprt for spendingestraint in general. by talking about how to reign in entitlement spending.

>> be specific. when you ask the folks in the polls, whether or not debt limit should be tied in to cutting back on spending, 62% say that. only after major cuts are takecare of should the debt limit be raised. >> i think the bigst problem is that there is very little difference right now between democrats and republins the publicans want to slow down the rate of growth of government spending and entitlement spending and the democrats want to increase the rate of growth. when you mention you have $60 trillion of unfunded liability, most tied to entitlement you need drastic reform. the only way, th only way we'lavoid becoming greece or even like detrt, for instanceis if we do what steve says and empower individuals, give them the tax-free money to take care of their own healthcare and their own savings. otherwise, it will never be fixed. >> we are never going to get a perfect -- this is politics. we are n going to get a rfect solution.

but shouldn'te atleastut entlement on tabl >> i think the country could veer off the long, slow, march to greek style bankruptcy if it has a political will. t i'll illustrate what the problem is by deribing my campaign for congre. i'm running on a two-part platform. part one is i am goi to double medicare taxes. rt two, i am going to cut medicare benefits in half. then we'll be solvent. david, how many votes do you think i'll get? >> zero. >> not from eve. he doesn't like taxes and the liberals don't want anything touched. >> steve, this is the point. bill has a round-away way to get there. but the point is a lot of liberals say taxes should go up before entitlement should be cut. are they going to get anywhere with that? >> no. ey ghe last tax increase in january. that is it for several years. the way to get around the obligaons in addition to allowing people to r their own accounts on social security and david, reforming healthcare in a positive way. that is to grow the economy.

when you have assets growing, liabilities become less fearsome. that is what we did in t 1980s. enormously increase the wealth of t nation andulled out of what looked like a hopeless slump. >> rick, d i see your head shake your hd no? >> i'm curious why bill baldwin would wantto trade his huge influence on this show t go to congress. what is he thinking? >> vu to deal with what is politically acceptable. this environment, with the politics back and forth you won't get a perfect solution, right? >> i don't think you will. but i think the american people are polli to be much more conservative than the majority of republicanare. the republicansight now in washington are not conservative by any means. they are bigovernment republicans. at the core >> by the way, there are a lot of republicans. there are conservative republicans, modate republicans. >> john boehner is not a conservative. the majory of power -- mitch

mcconnell is not a conservative by y stretch of the imagination. when i say "conservative" i am talking out empowering people to have theirwn way with how they want to control their lives and spend their own moy. that is the only way we'll get this debt under control. >> sabrina, you are in new york today, glad to see you. but you are from washington. what dyou think of this? >> absolutely. one of the best thing to reform entitlements it takes a conversation to a common sense conversation. rath than saying good or bad spending we know americans want entitlements. the estion is how best to this will change the conversation to something much more reasonable. >> but john tamny, do we need something more fundamental, sol -- something to shake the nature of the government're in the throes of now? >> i think entitlement is abomination. why we went down the pathly never know. easy way to get around them is grove the economy and talk about positi ways for

indivis who aren't congenitally socialist to t out of social security and opt out of medicare and the different government progrs. that is how you fix entitlement. it's not by scaring people but showing a people out. >> steve is not congenitally cialt byny mes or retcs. budo y tt's psibl t of the negativity we can get a positive ssage, steve? >> easily you can g a potive message. ronald reagan did it in the 1990s. republics did it in the last gornment shutdown. do it here and put something positive on the table. young peleou control the money instead of washington politicians. that would have a lot of appeal. let's leave on a positive note a pray steve is right. with obamacare websites riddled th glitches, forget about open enrollment. try open season for hackers. your private infortion at risk? a story that is going to scare you coming right up.

keep it here on the fox news channel. the most powerful name in news. well, the healthcare exchange is startingp but not running smoothly. now fears that identity theft uld start running rampant. some states issuing public warnings to be careful of scammers posing as the healthcare navators. john mcafee telling fox business the exchanges are a hacker's dream. should americans should be worried about this? >> they should.

in addition to scammers you have officially appointed group like c-co that won the contract in mork and georgia and tennessee and maryland that has been convicted of fraud in the past. the non-profit quarterly called them creative in their fraud creativity. these are the people who are officially running it. they don't submit their own employees to background checks. >> so rick, even people at the top of the food chai are bad. >> here is where you got to be reallyareful. i'll tell you a quicktory. i happen to use one of the biggest banks inhe country. right? my account was robbed. en i talketo the bank and i said how couldhis happen, how can my account be hacked? you know what ey told me? it was an inside job. i said what kind of a background check do you put your people through absolutely none. we should be careful of hacking in government organizations and private organizations, but to sing out these people is ridiculous. if you get a phone call from somebody saying that they are a navigator, navigators don't

call out. >> sabna, we are sining out a program that is invasive in our private lives. that is the problem. if you have a program this massively invasetive, whoever u have enforcing it you have problems like this, right? >> right. of course. look, i mean first of all, a bank is a completely different situatn, because this is a private marketplace. so if your bank is utterly failto prote your identity, then you can choose a diffent bank the problem here is that this is run and operated by the vernment. the ramifications are really serious. the best case scenario you are financially at risk here. the worst case scenario is medically you are really under some real threat. someone else gets your identy commingle reports ansuddenly you're getting misdiagnosed and mireated. >> bill, who are these health exchange navigators. a lot of them are the community organizers who might have another agenda. >> really, "nav gator" is a fancword for organizers. there are some people out

there think organize that help you extra benefit from the government. if we flood the country from organizers we i'll beore prosperous because we'll have more benefit. i have doubts about that. in the long run a couple of billion llars from stolen credit cards is the least of our probms. how about $1 trillion is banishing and foolish programs. that is an issue. >> more than just money wasted but thfact that people are getting in our private lives. dealing with healthcare issues. >> the blocking of doing criminal background checks is amazing they wouldn't even go through something sic like that. that why you will see the rise of an it's happening, the private exchanges like what walgrns is doing and hers are doing. they will be the dominant force in the market. one of the ironies of obamacare is we're going to end up with the free terprise because of the failure of the exchanges and success ofhe private exchanges. >> john, it's another broken

promise that the system is not going to get inur lives. that the indivual ll still have total control over all the information. >> wel anytime a national government obnoxiouy foists a big one-size-fits-all program o the amerin people there will be waste and aud and staggering incoetence. the answer to this is not reform. it's to get back to reality. healthcare at its best day shshould ner be something admistered on a federal level. i should be cities and states. that way wes individual voters choose our bliss how much or how little healthce we want from government. most of us would probably choose very little because we value it. >> waste and fraud and staggering incompetence, rick. >> you know, it's hard to know where to bin. apparently john doesn't like the veterans administration which is the only healthcare program run by the government. but guys, this is so tranarent. 's yet anoer way to aack a law you don't like. you're maligning people, calling them organizers. these aren't organizers. these are people w went and got trained because they get

paid to do thisjob. they get paid to provide -- >> rich, is that true? didn't the message go out to ual suspects here? >> who are the usual suspts? >> just google ceedeco and look at the hiory of fud in the organization. they won four contracts in four states be the nav gator -- navigator for obamacare. you have seen this before, right? >> the i.r.s. is overseeing this. i don't know how anyone can sit here and think we're not under a risk for identity theft. this is going to be a disaster and i hope stev is right that this will be the final straw thaturns this whe thin on its head. >> we will see. thank you very much. despite the glitches, the "cashin' in" gang says there is one thing on the obamacare website that is clear to see and that is great news! what could that possibly be? find out what it is at the bottom of the hour. but first, right here on forbes with d.c. putting treasured national parks in the middle of the shdown

mess, the forbes gang has a plan t keep them ope forever. no matter d.c. does. get this: it will save

well, the white house reveing itself and now agreeing to let states reope some national parks but states have to do itith the own moy. tourists and private businesses voicing outrage about being locked out of parks acro america in the partial shutdown. steve, you have a plan to keep national parks from ever becoming a political bargaining chip again.

what is it? >> david, that is to privatize them. if you don't want to ivatize the whole thing, privati the operations so you don't have the shutdowns and make sure you don't have bureaucrats toree national park service wouldn't shut down parks tat were being privately operated. this is an outrage designed to raise publi opinion ire against what is happening in washington, against the republicans. put it inthe hands of people that know how to run them. >> morga privatize the federal pas? good plan or not? >> whave a bett chance to privatize thet.s.a. first. it's an american institution. american history, something that has been exported across the world. this idea of naon parks. the truth of the matter is the government shutdown, the last one we saw was 17 years ago. they're a rare phenomenon. it didn't even matter in this particular shutdown. we saw the privateparks that werelosed down with the government shutdown like the parking lot of mount vernon. i wouldn't matter. >> the natnal parks go back

a long time, back to tdy rose vent. >> i wasn't -- teddy roosevelt. >> i wast around them. the u.s. forest service, the budget has been axed but they haven't closed any parks because they have over 1,000 parks that are run by private operators. rick wi hve a heart attack the capitalists are coming but they don't own the land. they charge lower fees to get in. listen, they lot of capital expenditures here. use the money to fix up the park, not clean out the bathrooms. >> farming out the duties of the park. >> i was around when teddy roosevelt s a >> what do you think of mike's idea? >> these are national pas. i don't understand how you can show concern aut talk about the nationalarks and then you want to turn it over to the profit-making enterprises that will make it so expensive that t many americans wot go there. >> why d you think that? isn't governme solution more expensive than private solution mosof the time?

>> these are not solutions. these are keeping the property available for evyone who is an american. >> rich, keeping the parks closed is no solution either. >> no, it's not. rick has a false nightmare, you know, mount rushmore brought to you by wal-mart. it's not going to happen that way. what we are talking about is bringing in enterprising people to manage concessions and ke the doors open. >> steve, what about that? >> it's a combination of publ and private. >> well, doing the operations, go ahead. do a 30-year lease, 50-year lease, sething like that. if you don't live up to t contract, you lose it. ing in somebody else who can do it. basic. the thing about the private enterprise, they want to bring people in so they get a lower price rather than gouging you like they do at thirpos. morn, igre wi t ggeson we pratiz the s.a. withegarto tarks selfwhatbout coination? public and private. >> i love combination. but even in parks reduce the private organizations running them.

the ground with, you know, owned by the federal government. we have still seen the entities close. it doesn't matter in a government shuown. >> rick, what do you think? >> if you give me the license for the concession in the national park you n change my mind. barring that, no, this worked out pretty well so far. the marks ar open. everybody in america enjoys them. it's not costing any more than it would cost to privatize it. >> privatize the operation and let the public own the land. >> do you thinit might happen? these thing goes back a long time. >> never hap >> rich? >> who kno? indiana had some toll highways and they sold them to a brazilian company. everybody was outraged that the brazillions would take the highways to brazil. i didn't work that way. all they did is manage them. >> happening for 40 years. the u.s. forest servicehas beenoing this for a long time. this isn't like an experiment we never tried before. it's been successful in general. >> you are talk about integral piece of american history.

i don't sigh it happening. >> tt's the last word. steve, quick. >> part of american history is private enterprise. let free market and free people do it. >> cing up, don't let the wild market swing from the bt debacle get you down. the informers have stocks on the rise no matter what d.c. decides. that's coming up.

we are back. the informers have stocks to survive the debt drama. morgan, altria? >> a sin stock. timearough, people smoke and drink, the maker of marlboro, a cash cow. sinful dividend. >> bill, you like it? >> tobacco is propped up by cartel and i think it will blow up. >> you like manpower. what and why? >> government on both sides of the atlant are wrecking the market for the full the time employment. th's great for survivors of temps. >> we need the rommendatioion two years ago from bill when it was clear that obamacare would wreck full-time employment. the stock has done we so i'd avoid it. >> j.p. morgan, bank in the crosshair of the government. >> obama henchmen of atcking it and consistently but th bank will survive. it's cheap and good time to buy. >> run by jamie dimon maybe the best banker in the world. >> posted the first quterly

loss underneath him. >> that esite fo"forbes on fox." thank you for watching. keep it here. the number one business block continues with my buddy eric bolling and "cashin' in." stay tuned. ♪ ♪ it's not onlyglitches crippling the healthcare exchanges. some say the real problem is the shocking premium they find when they get the law gone. is this the final proof that they can't afford the shutdown. d are we shelling out big bucks for the big bird? will we ever slash our debt? you can expand here. how about expanding over there? how the anti-wal-mt crowd may send wal-mart jobs to china. "cashin' in" on the job starts right now. hi, everyone, i'm eric bolling. welcome to "cashin' in." the crew wayne