oh, zero heartburn is awesome. just like zero clery. ♪ [ male announcer ] prilosec otc. o pill each morning. 24 hours. zero heartburn. with the deadline nearing, lawmakers scrambling to reach a deal over the debt cling. without one, democrats edicting disaster. >> avoid a potential cataclysm is to pass the budget now. >> it would be dangerous to our economy. >> uncerinty is for any economy. >> crashing the global ecnomy. >> even some ceos and banks saying that no debt deal will be ry raw deal for the economy d the markets. but some here say don't buy it. so who's right? hi, everyone. i'm brenda buttner. this is "bulls and bears."

here they are. we have gary b. smith, jonas farris, john layfield,arry glaz, and sasha burns. larry, failure to reach a deal won'tean the end of the world? >> brenda, enough with the scare tactics. look, i know it's almost halloween. but the american people are si and tired of being frightened into supporting mindless and endless government spending. look, not raising the debt ceiling is not the same as a default. there's plenty o revenue to make interest and principle payments and to keep our accounts current. this is needless frhtening of the american people, and they are not going to stand for it. they are fatigued. >> all right. sasha, are you frightened? >> you know, you're the first person i've heard that has said that with a straight face. am i concerned? no. because i kn that at the end of the day, the republicans are going to overcome the mob rule of the tea party and come up with asolution to keep the -- to keep us from defaulting.

it is not just democratsayin this. it is ceo the coke brothers, the chamber ofcommerce. it's every large business. 's the smal businesses that say don't this short-term six-week relief because then it's right at thanksging that we'll have all of the uncertainty. financial apocalypse is what experts call this. >> but, gary b., we don't deult if we hit the debt ceiling. we bring in lots mor revenue, and we c pay our bills if we prioritize spending. what do you think? >> wel sasha was questioning larry's straight face answer. and i'm kind of questioning why she's questioning that. larry points out we take in a lot more revenue to pay the interest on our debt, almost 10 times the amount. so it's ki of like you get a credit card bill. you mit not be able to pay off all of the lls, if you can pay the interest you canay that.

and then the question becomes, what are you gng to do with the restf your bills? well, like any family, you have to prioritize. that's what ve seen with the government shutdown, if you will. even though everyone thinks the whole government is shut down, we are still paying about 80% of the feesut there, governmentally. it's really only 20% cut down. so we prioritized maybe with an ax in this case, but we did it. and that's what would haen with the whole debt ceiling. >> jonas, would this hurt the economy, though? >> yeah, because that assumes the government behaves like a ration household or busins, and is like, let's just payhe t-bill ininterest and forget abt yellow stone. that's not how it's going to go down. they'll just default for no reason when they could have afforded the payments. they've already said they are going to do that no industry will be hit harder than financial services if we go over this cliff. for no other reason than, firs of all, thehole fdic insurance they opera der, is that even

good anymore if they can't keep raisingthe debt ceiling? and they are maki car loans today at 3%. if all of a sudden their capital costs go to 5% because we are not paying t-bills, theirhole business model is upside down. i could be very nervous for the banks as a financial adviser. customers and investors are scared aboutoing over ts cliff, real or imagined. >> john, areou scared? >> look, i'm scared about default. i don't think 's going to happen. these ceos were not blaming t republicans. ey were bling all of waington, d.c. remember reagan dealtwith the democrats. clinton dealt with the republicans. this administratn, ere are nodults right now in washington, d.c. take defaul off the table. do you have the revenue, like larr and gary said, the renue toake that off the table. the government shutdown is one thing. and that's bad enough. look, the ral crime here, don't foet the government shutwn. those federal, furloughed employees will probably get back

pay. those people who have vendors and operators at national parks, they can't pay their rent. this is a crimeerpetrad by sevel people. boehner, reid, and president obama against the small guy out there beuse they can't get along. it is disgraceful. >> you know, larry, the markets really are hoping and betting thathere will be a deal, because they really went up wn there was any sign of thawing in the talks between thwhite house and congress. >> that's right, brenda. well, to jonas' point, i t market sensed that a default was imminent and the cataclysm was upon us, they would have sold off dramatically. you would have seen armageddon in the bond market. you didn't see that. financials were resilient this week despite the challenging news. i think we recognize the fact backdrop, a weak economy, and it's yet to reay grow. retail sales were slow in september and october well before this even happened. so we can't attribute all of

those things to the fact that there's been a government shutdown. but certainly we know we'll be right back in this situation if we don't address the long-term fiscal challenges. we can't keep spending more money, but we're not going to getut of the hole o out of this debate. and what the american people don't want to hear is another conversation like this. theyant to rip t band-aid off and take the pain now and deal with it so we can get the economy moving and not have this as an annual ourrence every time. >> jonas, you said that you were worrieabout the economy, and that a l lot of your clients ar worried about the market. you think the market is going to take a big hit? it has arenn't so far. >> there has been some disruption if you look at it. but in general, nothing horrible has happened because at th end of the day, goldman sachs has more power than the tea party. d they'll decide they want the limiraised, and we're not going to go over it. but the pshychological damage is being done. investigators aren't confident, and don't want t put money into the market.

that's what i worry about, not even a real default, but we psyche ourselves into it. >> well, gary b., what do you think? is the sky going to fall if we hit the debt ceiling? >> i can't speak for jonas' clients, but i'm not seng the same thin we just put together a couple of days in the market, the best days we've had in a year almost. what were we up thursday, like 300 points? ifthere's fear out there and psychological damage that jonas talks about, i'm just not seeing it. if this is psychological damage, i think we're pretty well off right now. >> what do you think? you were frightenedearlier. >> i wouldn't say i'm frightened because i'm still going with the fact that some sensible people are going to come together. but we all know that uncertainty is b for markets,and this whole scussion about the debt ceiling and short-term and this happened two years ago, it's terrible for the economy. yoknow, you guys know it. you're republicans but you know

it is terrle for the economy. >> gary b. doesn't think so. >> whoa. first of all, don't label me as a republican. i am a proud libertarian, for crying out loud. second of al i -- maybe it's bad for the economy. i don't think unrtainty as y say, sasha, is b for the market. the mid caps, i tnk, and the y, this could put it at an all-time high. so the market is performing actually pretty well. i think it welcomes this uncertainty, as long as the governnt stays on the sideline. >> gary b., i'm goingo stea some tape where it's bad for the markets from another show where you schooled me on that. >> please unrstand who you're talking to when u're calling names. gary is the libertarian. i'm a strong independent. president obama in 2006 said it was irresponsible when bush was raisg the debt ceiling. now all of a sudden, he has accrued mountains of debt and says it's irresponsib not to raise the de ceiling. this is politics as usual in washington, d.c. there's no leaders oradults.

it's disgraceful. >> that's the last w layfield. well, you've seen these sign why the cavuto team says republicans may be panicking because you're not. and despite the shutdown, the irs i ill collecting your tax money and still gearing up to enrce the health care law. time to shut that down? um... where's mrs. dav? shtook an early spring break thanks to her double mil from the capital one venture card. now what was mrs. davis teaching? spelling. that's not a sject, right? i mean, spell check. that's a program. algebra. okay. persons a and b are flying to the bamas. how fast will they get there? don't you need distance, rate and...

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news channel in the nation. after all the glitche republican senator pat roberts teing health and human services secretary it's me to ditch. he wants her resignation. but is the bigger target the controversy e woman who will be in charge of enforci the health ce law? sarah halli ingram is under fir for reportedly sharing confidential information with the white house during that targeting scandal. and you say it's time to take the irs out of the health care picture. >> that's right. get rid of all of them. does this surprise anybody that the irs is being used a a political weapon by the obama administration? the obamadministration is on the latest administration because they are the ones currently in power. the irs haseen used as a political apon since jay edgar hoover. they have been -- look at what they have done this year. targeting the certain conservative groups. and now sharg confidential information.

this is only what we're finding out. so they have been -- you ask anybody. does the irs target peopl because of political affiliations? and they will tell you yes. you want to put them in charge of bra obama care? that's a horrible id. >> sasha, do you agree? >> you know,john, if you ask anybody if they think that it's political, then i think that there are a lot of people who was say that it wasn't. maybe no republicans or independents, but i'm sorry, i did not mean to insult you before. but, no, i -- >> if a republican was in charge, the democrats would say, look, this is politics as usual. it's not partisan. >> there's a joke that some hostage takers saidhat they think it's hurtful they are being cmpared to the tea part which i really like. but that aside, the irs, ingram who is in char of it, the information that she provided to the white house did not go to potical staff. it went to people who are

overseeing t the implementationf oba care, which had too with religious information and ntraceptive cae. so the information was whether or not the organizatn is ligiously affiliated or an actual organization. shdid not provide any confidenti information. >> gary b., do you think the i should have any place in the enforcement of obama care? i mean, there have been scandals. >> i agree with you, brenda. here is t problem. john points out the irs has ben used by both sides for quite a long time. i think the problem is with the way that this miniration is enforcing obama care, we have ready seen t tone and the vindictiveness quite honestly with what we did with the national parks. closing parks that were -- that ran on private money.

closing parks where there has not been a national parks servicperson around for years. i mean, it was horrible and vindictive in order to get their way. look, the irs is a scary orgazation, whether that's all blusteor whether it's in ality. ople are scared of the irs. so you're kind of coming in with a, you know, ss kikind of organization to enforce this. i think it's going to becary for a t of people. i think it wl be vindictive for a lot of people. this administration makes su that they are, quote, unquote, right. >> jonas, do you think there ar rse alternatives? >> first o all, let's just say we're a few days away from the extension deadline. if you think i'm going to say anything bad about the irs right now -- >> you're the only one whoon't get audited, jonas. >> they are not t ss. they are hard-wororking, good govern servants. but look at -- how else he federal government going to enforce this? do you not the dea? plan a drone strike over you? how about the fbi? who's left who's better than the

irs to enforceit? if it was my ball to play, i would said you're not eligible for medicare until you're 70 and get the irsut of it. t, yay, irs. october 15,ook for me i love you. >> i don't know, larry. maybe nobody should be in charge of enforcing it. >> the only occupation with a lower approval rating an politicians e irs agents. and i'm afraid i'm going to go home and there's going to be an auditor at my first job just for commenting on this. >> they are furloughed. >> but when you start to concentrate powerand give confidential information to one branch of governme, and it can be used as a political weapon, it's scary. and you don't know wre it's going to end. you have to nip it in the bud, and re-evaluate this enforce. mechanism we'll have problems later on. i lose sleep overthis. i don't like where it's going. >> oh, come on, larry. have a good night's sleep. all right. from detroit to south of the border, what bailed out chrysler just did that may drive taxpayers

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u.s. taxpayers bailed them out, n chrysler is spending $1.2 blion to expand and create jobs in, get this, mexico. now ironically, the car maker still owes u.s. taxpayers $1.3 billion, and gary b., you say told you so. >> exactly, brenda. i ink anyone watching this would be outraged. but not outraged at chrysler. look, chrysler did what any good corporate entity should do. they saw a sweetheart deal.

they took it. they ran with it. they are going to enhance their own hand. the ouage should be directed at the government. once again, once ai brenda. we sat here years ago d said that governmt should not bail out privatecompanies. they shouldn't be giving to money to chrysler or any of these companies that th did. they did i they crowed about it. and now the chickens are coming home to roost. >> well, shouldn't chrysler be using the money that it's extending to mexico, essentially, and paying us back? >> you know, when i first read this, i absolutely agreed, enda. and i still don't like it. the bailout is the worst thing that could happen, except all of thother alternatives, right? but the reality is, chrysler llc has paid everything back. the $1.3 billion is about the old company that's left over aftethey declared bankruptcy. it's not the current one mostl owned by at. this is globalization. they have created jobs in the

u.s. they have put billions into the u.s. but they also make parts in other countries. toyota makes some here. it's just reality. we might not like it, but it is. >> larry, do you like it? >> i don't like itat all. i'm ashamed, not becau i own one chrysler car but i owntwo chrysler cars. look, one of which is a minivan. perhaps i should trade it innd buy a toyota de in indiana becausi'll be doing more to help the u.s. economy. look, the unw still owns 40% of this. for all of you workers, you're effectivelyutsourcing your own jobs to mexico right now. and the chsler slogan was imported fm detroit. they a going to have to change that, obviously, to imported from mexico going forward. >> john, do you have any trouble with this? >> no, i don't. i'm like gary b. i have a problem with what the government did. member, the governmentave a lot of money to battery makers to put those cilities in the united states. they moved those to china. i had a rea problem with that because ey didn't enforce that. what the government did here is

lose $1.3 billion in thetock buyback or sales to chryer. they can take their plants wherever they want. this is globalization. what everybody i saying about free marts is like. whether you like the jobs going to mexico or not, i that's the way the company runs best, that's what they should do. >> what should they be doing, jonas? what do you think? >> that was a big fear when the government gave all the money out that they d have this hophone and be like, your new ca have to be power liquid tofu, and that didn't happen. ey didn't put a plant in d.c. where l of the politicians are. they are operating independently. yeah, we lost 10% of our money. that isn't as good as the bank bailout where we made money. but for the government to lose only 10% of the money on any deal, that's a wins far as i'm concerned. they are operating independently. let it go. >> last word to larry. >> perhaps we could have used those,500 jobs that we sent to mexico in detrt. after all, chrysler m made a mmitment after detro's bankruptcyinvest a hire. that's something that they are

clearly not doing in this case. ok. last word. you keep that nivan, larry? all right. >> i'm ashamed on a lot of levels about that minivan. thank you, sasha, for joining . >> thank y. so here's to provin the hips don't lie for one company, and so i can reach ally bank 24/7, but there are no branches? 24/7. i'm sorry, i'm just reay reluctant to try new things. really? what's wrong with trying new things? look! mommy's new vacuum!

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universe for stocks for jonas' nervous clients. proctor and gamble is the one i like. the i think the stock is up 30% in the next six months. >> bull or bear? >> i'm a bear by the toothpick not the stock. >> your prediction, larry? >>weeter than free money from the fed, hersh stock uraps a 20% profit in x nths. >> john, what do you think? you can't not like chocolate. >> love chocolate. but i'm m a bear unfortunatelyn hershey's. >> and your prediction? >> hips don'lie. shakira is now endorsing t-mobile. the stock is up 20% in a year. >> you wanted to see shakira, righ that's all. >> that's the only rean i did that prediction. your prediction, jonas? >> the government shutdown means mio brewers can't get approved to launch, which is good for the macro brews like coors t up

15% in a year. >> gary b., bull or bear? >> i love shakira. that's all i'm going to say. brewing upa great debate. ca-nl cavu "cavuto on business." shutdown panic because taxpayers aren't panicking. les payne in for neil cavuto. and so much for all those cones and barricades because the partial governmenthutdown getting hyped for brng the pain doesn't look too painful to a lot of americans. so as life goes on, can america move on with a smaer government? ben stein, david mcdowell, and gary k. >>ll evidence ise're a ok we have hundreds of thousands of furloughs. we're still ruinjuine. for me, i've been saying it for years. the bottom line is government is an overbloated blob with too much waste. if i got in