but now they are coming back. i love emerging markets. >> i lovit as well but i love you better. "cost of freedom" continueslace. fox. ♪ ♪ so fget about all the rhetoric and the wrangling in d.c. get to the het of the debt battle. out-of-control entitlement spending. the biggest chunk of the buet by far. republicans leaders say if we don't deal with it, we will never stop raising the debt limit. some liberal democrats drawing a linehe sand, saying don't touch entitlements ever. so who is right? hi, everybody. i'm david asman. welcome to "forbes on fox." steve forbes, rick unger, mike, bill baldwin, sabrina schaefer, john tandy. $2 trillion out of a $3.5 trillion budget. more than th majority. how do you avoid dealing with it? >> eventually you will have to deal with it. it won't be done now, simy

because there is not aandate to do it. you set the stage for it; such as, having accounts for unger peop in social security, change t livery of healthcare, do it in a positive way. you set the ground work. you won't make headway with the congress. shoot for 2014 and 2016. >> rick, shoul entitlements be off the table entirely? >> i don't think they should i'm not one of those liberals. i would le to see the focus shift to where they are look at entiements in termsof cleaning it up. it should be a constant reform all the time. weed out the people who may take advantage, so we have the money for the people who legitimately need the help. >> let's talk about peop takingdvantage. federal disability programs are just totally out of control. we have all kind of abuse and fraud. 25% of the cases are called, "inappropriately decided." isn't that a place to start? >> yeah, that would be a place to start. i just don't want th republicans to do it in their typical root canaay where they talk about deficits and

hothe country is gng to come crashing down. talk aut it as an opportunity. say here is a way to pay down social security as in give people a way to op out of it and have their own personal accounts. here is also a way to grow the economy, to pay off the onerous promises. the problem is republins get fixated deficits and voters don't believe them. >> sabna, we have al the promises that we have made. $60 trillion by the way of unfunded promises that we have made. we have to deal with entitlements at some point. that iat the heart of the debt crisis. >> we do. we spend0% of the federal program on the program. social security, medicare and medicaid. but need to do in a way that is strategic american people want to see the programs survive and do it in a way thatdoes not destroy the economy or crush them with taxation. we did research that found this is a great way to increase popular support for spending restraint in general. by talking about how to reign in entitlement spending.

>> be spific. when you ask the folks inthe polls, whether or not debt limit should be ti in to cutting back on spending, 62% say that only after major cuts are taken caref should the debt limit be raised. >> i thinkhe biggest problem is that there is very little difference right now between democrats and republicans the republicans wantto sw down the rate of growth of government spending and entitlement spending and the democrats want to incree e rate of growth. when youention you have $60 trillion of unfunded liability, most tied to entitlement you need drastic reform. the only way, the only way we'll avoid becoming greece or even like dtroi for instance, is if we steve says and emper individuals, give them the tax-free money to take care of their own healthcare and their own savings. otherwise, it will never be fixed. >>e are never going to get a perfect -- this is potics. we are not going t get a peect solution.

but ouldn't we at least put entitlement on table? >> i think the country could veer off theong, slow, march to greek style bnkruptcy if it has a political wl. but i' illustrate what the problem is by describing my campaign for congress. i'm running on a two-part platform. part one is i am going to uble medicare taxes. part two, i am going to cut medicare benefits in half. then we'll be solvent. david, how many votes do you think i'll get? >> zero. >> not from steve. he dsn't like taxes and the liberals don't want anytng uched. >> steve, this is the point bill has a round-away way to gethere. but the point is a lot of liberals say taxes should go up before entitlement should be cut. are they gng to get anywhere with that? >> no. they got the last tax increase in january. that is it forveral years. the way get around the obligations in addition to allowing people to run their own accounts on social security and david, reformi healthcare in a positive way. that is to grow the economy.

when you have assets growing, liabilities become less fearsome. at is what we did in the 1980s. enormoly increase the wealth of the nation and pulled out what looked like a hopeless slump. >> rick, did iee your head shake your head no? >> i'm cious why bill baldwin would want to trade his huge influence on this show to go to congress. what is he thinking? >> vu to deal with what is politically acceptable. in this environment, with the politics back and forth you won't get a perfect solution right? >> i don think you will. but i think the american people are polling to be much more conrvative than the majority of republicans are. ththe republicans right now in washington are not conservative by any means. they are big government reblicans. at the core -- >> by the way, there are a lot of republicans. there are conservative republicans, moderate republicans. >> john boehner is not a conservative. the majority of power -- mitch mcconnell is not a

conservativey any stretch of the imagination. when i say "conservative" i am talking about empowering people thave their own y with how they want to control their lives and spd their own money. that is the only way we'll get this debt unr control. >> sabrina, you are in new york today, glad to see you but you are from washington. what do you think of this? >> absolutely. one of the best thing to refo entitlements it takes a conversation to a common sense conversasation. rather than saying good or d spendi we know americans want entitlements. the question is how best to manage that? this will change the conversation to somethinmu re reasonable. >> but john tamny, do we need something more fundameal, sol - something to shake the nature of the government're in the throes of now >> i think entitlent is abomination. why we went down the phly ver know. easy way to get around them is grove the economy and talk about positive ways for

indiduals who aren't congenitally soclist to opt out of social security and opt out of medicare and the different government programs. that is how youix entiement. it's not by scaring people but showing a people out. >> steve is not congenitally socialist by any means or stretches. but do you think it's possible out of the negativity we can get a positive message, steve? >> easily you can get a positive message. ronald reagan did it in the 1990s. republicans did itn the last government shutdown. do it here and put something positiven the table. young people you control the money instead of washington politicians. that would have lot of appeal. >> let's leave on a positive note a pray steve is right. with obamacare websites riddled with glitches, forget about op enrollment. try open season for hackers. is your private information at risk? a story that is going to scare you coming right up. any last requests mr. baldwin?

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[ male announcer ] advair diskus fluticasone propionate and salmeterol inhalation powde get your first prescription free and save on refills aadvaircopd.com. channel. the most powerful name in news. well, the healthcare exchange is starting up but not running smoothly. now fears that identity theft could start running rampant. some states issuing public warnings to be careful of scammers posing a the healthcare navigators. john mcafee telling fox business the exchanges are a hacker's dream should americans suld be worried about this >> they should.

in addition to scammers you have officially appointed group like-co that wo the contract in mork an georgia and tennessee and maryland that has been convicted of fraud in the pas the non-profit quarterly called them creative in their fraud creativity. these are the people who are officially running it. they don't submit their own employees to background checks. >> so rick, even people at the top of the food chain are bad. >> here is where you got to be really careful. i'll tell you a quick story. happen to use one of the biggest banks in the country. right? my accou was robbed. when i talked to the bank and i said how could tis happen, how can my account be hacked? you know what they told me? it was an inside job. i said what kind of a background check do you put your people through? absolutely none. we should be careful of hacking in govnment organizations and private organizations, but to single out these people is ridiculous. if you get a phone call from somebody saying that they are a navigator, navigators don't

call out. >> sabrina, we are singling out a program that is invasive in our private lis. that is the problem. if you have a program this massively invasetive, whoever you have enforcing it you have problems like this, right? >> right. of course. ok, i mean first of all, a bank is a completely different situation, because this is a private marketplace. so if your banks utterly fails to protect your identy, then you can choose a different bank. the problem here is that this is run and operated by the governme. the ramificationare really serious. the best case scenario you are financially at risk here. the worst case scenario is medically you are really under some real threat. someone else gets your identi, commingle report and suddenly you're getting misdiagnosed and mistreated. >> bl, who are these health exchange navigators. a lot of them are the community organizers who might have another agenda. >> reall "nav gator" is a fancy word for organizers. there are some people out

there think organizers that help you extract benefit from the government. if we flood the country from organizers we i'll be more prosperous becausee'll have more benefit. i have doubts about that. inhe long run a couple of billion dollars fom stolen credit cards is the least of our problems. how about $1 trillion is banishing and foolish programs. that is an issue. >> more than just money wasted but the fact that people are getting in our private lives. dealing with healthcare issues. >> the blocking of doing criminal background checks is amazing they wouldn't even go through something sic like that that's why you will see the rise of and it's hapning, the private exchanges like at walgreens is doing and others are doi. they will be the dominant force in the market. one of the ironies of obamacare is wre going to end up with the free enterprise because of the failure of the exchangesnd success of the private exchanges. >> john, it's another broken

promise that the system is not going to get in our lives. that the individual will still have total control over all the information. >> well, anytime a national government obnoxiously foists a bignee-fits-all program on the american people there will be waste and fraud and staggering incompetence. the answer to this is not reform. it's to get back t reality. healthca at its best day should never be something administered on a federal level. i shld be cities and states. that way we as individual voters choosour bliss how much or how little hlthcare we want from government. most of us would probably choose very little because we value it. >> waste and fraud and staggering incompetence, rick. >> you know, it's hard to know where to begin. apparently johdoesn't like the veterans administration which is the only healthcare program run by the government. but guys, this is so transparent. it's yet another way to attack a law you don't like. you're maligning pple, calling them organizs. these aren't organizers. these are people who wen and got trained becausthey get

paid to do this job. they get paid to provide -- >> rich, is that true? didn't the message go out to usual suspects here? >> who are the usual suspects? >> just google ceedeco and look at thehistory of fraud in the organization. they won four contracts in four states to be the nav gator -- navigator for obamacare. you have seen this before, right? >> t i.r.s. is overseeing th. i don't know how anyone can sit here andthink we're not under a risk foridentity theft. this is going to be a disaster and i pe ste is right that this will be theinal straw th turns this whole thing on its head. >> we will see. thank you very much. despitthe glitches, the "cashin' in" gang says there is one thing on the obamacare webse that is clear to see and that is great news! what could that possibly be? find out what it is at the boom of the hour. but first, right here on forbes with d.c. putting treasured naonal parks in the middle of the shutdown mess, th forbes gang has a

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well, the white house reversing itself and now agreeing to let states reopen some national parks but states ve to do it with their own money. tourists and prate businesses voicing outrage about bein locked out of parks across america in the partl shutdown. steve, you have a plan tokeep national parks from ever becoming a political bargaining chip again.

what is it? >> dav, that is to privatize them. if you don't want to privatize the wholole thing, priritize the operations so you don't have the shutdowns and make sure you don't have bureaucratso shut down parts they don't own. the bureaucrats of the national park service wouldn't shut down parks that were being prively operated. this is an outrage designed to raiseublic opinion ire against what is happening in washington, against the repuicans. put it in the hands of people that know how to run them. >> morgan, privaze the federal parks? good plan or not? >> we have a better chance to privatize the t.s.a. first. it's an american institution. american history, something that has been exported across the world. this idea of national parks. the truth of the matter is the govement shuown, the last one we saw was 17 years ago. they'ra rare phenomenon. it didn't even matter in this particular shutdown. we saw trivate parks that were closed down with the government shutdown like the parkinlot of mount vernon. parks go backter.

a long time, back to teddy rose vent. >> i wasn't -- teddy roosevelt. >> i wasn't around them. the u.s. forest service, the budget has been axed but they haven't closed any parks because they have over 1,000 parks that are run by private operators. rick will have a heart attack the capitas are coming but they don't own the land. they charge lower fees to get in. listen, they a lot of capital expenditures here. use the money to fix up the park, not clean out the bathrooms. >> farmi out the duties of the park. >> i was around when teddy osevelt was around. >> what do you think of mike's idea? >> these are national parks. i don't understand how you can show concern about talk about the naonal parks and then you want to turn it over to the pr-making enterprises that will ma it so expensive that too many americans won't go there. >> why do you think that? isn't government solution more expensive than private solution most of t time?

>> these are not solutions. these are keeping the property available for everyone who is an american. >> rich, keeping the parks closed is no solution either. >> no, it's not. rick has a false nightmare, you know, mount rushmore brought to you by wal-mart. it's not going to happen that way. whate are talking about is bringing in enterprising people to manage concessions and keephe doors open. >> steve, what about that? >> it's a combination of public and private. >> well, doing the operations, go ahead. do a 30-year lease, 50-year lease, something like that. if you don't live up to the contract, you lose it. bring in somebody else who can do it. basic. the thing about e private enterprise, they wt to bring people in so they get a lor price rather than gouging you like they do at the airports. >> morgan, i agree withhe suggestion we privatiz the t.s.a. with regard the parks itself, what about a combination? public andrivate. >> i love combination. bueven in parks reduce the private organizations running them.

the ground with,ou know, owned by t federal governme. we have still seen the entities close. it doesn't mattein a governnt shutdown. >> rick, what do you think? >> if yogive me the license for the concession in the national park you can change my mind. barring that, no, this worked out pretty well so far. the marks are open. everybody in america enjoys them. it's not costing any more than it would cost to privatize it. >> privatize the operation and let thpublic own the ld. >> do you think might happen? these thing goes baca long time. >> never happen. >> rich? >> who knows? indiana had some toll highways and they sold th to a brazilian company. everybody was traged that the brazillions would take the highways to brazil. i didn't w that way. all they did is manage them. >> happening for 40 years. the u.s. forest svice has been doing this for a long ti. this isn't like an experint we never tried before. it's been successful in genel. >> you are talk about integral piece of american history.

i don't sigh it happening. >> that's the last word. steve, quick. >> part of american history is prate enterprise. let free market and free people do it. >> coming up, don't let the wild market swing from the debt debacle get you down. the informers have stocks on the rise no matter what d.c. decides. that's coming up. you really love, what would you do?" ♪ [ wom ] i'd be a writer. [ man ] i'be a baker. [ woman ] i wanna be a pie maker. [ man ] i wanna be a pilot. [ woman ] i'd be an aritect. what if i told you someone could pay you and wt if that person were you? ♪ when you tnk about it,

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we are back. the informers have stocks to survive the debt drama. morgan, altria? >> a sin stock. times are tough, people smoke and drink, the maker of marlboro, a cash cow. sinful dividen >> bill, you like it? >>obacco is propp up by cartel and i think it will blow up. >> you like manpow. what and why? >> govnment on both sides of the atlantic arerecking the market for the full the time employment. that's great for survivors of temps. >> we need the recommendation two years ago from bill en it was clear that obamacare would wreck full-time employment. the stock hasone well soi'd avoid it. >> j.p. morn, bank in the crosshair ofhe governnt. >> obama henchmen of attacking it and consistently but the bank will surve. it's cheap and good time to buy. >> run by jamie dimon maybe the best banker in the world. >> posted the first quarterly

loss underneath him. >> that esite for "forbes on fox. thank you for watching. keep it here. the numberne biness block continues with my buddy eric bolling and "cashin' in." stay tuned ♪ ♪ 's not only glititches crippling the healthcare exchges. some say theeal problem is thee shocking premium they find when they get the law gone. this the final proof that they can't afford the shutdown. and are shelling out big bucks for the big bird? will we ever slash our debt? you can expand here. how about expanding over there? how the anti-wal-mart crowd may send wal-mart jobs to china. "cashin' in" on theob starts right now. hi, everyone, i' eric bolling. welcome to "cashin' in." the crew wayne