charles: the clock is ticking, the deadline is coming, signs a tell might be brewing, welcome i am charles payne in for neil cavuto, senators harry reid, and macdougamcconnell trying to peal a deal. >> you are hearing a lot of numbers, when debt ceiling would be extended to, there are a number of different numbers they are influx. this is an ongoing negotiation right now, between the top democrat, and top republican in the senate. part of the negotiations is known as sequester, democrats want to fund government to january because they want to have a discussion, negotiation

on those automatic spending cuts that were part of the debt deal a couple of years ago, they believe it could be an opening to get rid of some cuts in exchange for revenue increases, creating problems for republicans here, and republicans concerned about them wanting to increase spending levels without those offset. we're told that republicans are standing firm on that part, part of increases will spending, perhaps kicking the rest of negotiations to a process to come later. also a question of timing on this. a lot of procedure in u.s. sense to the, if not every senator signs off on a fast track process it could take days to make it through. past the debt ceiling. and questions to whether it would get through house of representatives, if and when it is agreed to. a number of house republicans have been hearing the details of the framework, and don't like it

all this much, they feel they are being forced to to this democrats say, you went out there on obamacare, now we are coming out, saying we want increased spending. negotiations continue, republicans with a full conference meeting in senate tomorrow morning. they are still talking. back to you. charles: thank you, rich. we're going to one of those republicans now, florida congressman ted, you made a ruckus here, because. you are in washington d.c. saying this is a lot of hype we won't crumble as a nation if we don't raise the debt ceiling. >> charles, appreciate you having me on. and you know not raising the debt ceiling is not an automatic trigger for default. moody's talks about that.

we have enough money to service our debt to raise the debt this time is -- we're here because they have not addressed the problems in past congresses over last 20 years issue we have raised debt ceiling 14 times since 2001, if raising the debt ceiling is the answer we would not be talking about this we have to look at the spending side, growing the revenue side. charles: what about the idea someone would have to pick and choose what gets paid. your pointt we have enough money to pay interest on the debt we owe . in the world but after that who decides what gets paid, who gets cut. >> secretary of treasury, mr mr. lew . charles: let's say, that time they say we have enough money for a 10% hair cut on social

security or something else. do you think that the american public would stand for that. >> number one, i am going to social security, no. but we need to look at social programs, to make cuts right now, not cuts we need to do reforms in them, so the programs are there for the safety net they were designed to be, if we don't do that now, these programs are not going to be sustainable. the way we're going. we need to look at details that are coming out of the senate before we can i don't want to second guess them, but we could then make a decision. i am happy they are coming to the negotiation table. that to -- to deal with these problem that we've had over last course of last 4 weeks, we need to get america bac back to work. charles: no doubt, a lot of people are frustrated this detracts from the facts we have an inept for the economy, sounds

like you are describing the grand bargain, certainly this does not seem like the time that will be cobbled together? >> i could not hear all that. charles: sounds like, you are describing would be the elusive grand bargain we've been looking for, for a long time, it does not seem that the right places are in place to happen this week. >> i think you are right, i don't think they are there there until we see those, i don't want to speculate. but if we don't address this problem now, we had an opportunity in '89 and in between then and now, the question is when are we going to deal with the debt as a responsible country so future generations are not bogged down by this we don't want a short-term fix then go through this again, where people are laid off, and deal with this

again. not in 6 months or 6 years, we want to fix it we can then get on to other things to make america more of when, grow middle class stronger, and bring people up out of lower income classes. you know, i don't disagree with you, i think most would say the same, we have a minute left it feels that republicans in particular tea party losing the public relations battle. what is it, that you are not saying, i get what you are saying, but what is it your colleagues are not saying to the american public that is not resonating where does this disconnect. the nondistrict, people think we have a government money tree behind the white house. how do we articulate your hess message to them. >> one thing is, not raising

debt ceiling not an also trigger for default, that is the news. if we don't raise the debt ceiling we'll default, that is not true, look at our spending, and look at bills that will grow an economy. that is what we've said when we started to run that is how we got elected, i am staying to, that i believe that we as americans, we can address this problem. and by addressing those problems, if should stabilize the market, not just our market in america but the world. if not, i mean you heard china say, you better get your debt under control, i would think they would being a sigh of relief to see us addressing this problem. where we can get it under control. charles: we would all breathe that sigh of relief. to your point, markets are up since it began. represent stifrepresentative you

very much. >> thank you. >> we're playing russian roulette with the economy, we have to hike the debt ceiling, congresswoman welcome to the show, your colleague made a point this is a fantastic environment to come up with something very close on a sort of grand bargain. the economy slowing, real wages decreasing, this might be the time to address it all. >> well, it is at ways important who -- always important when negotiating to come up with answers, we're in a crisis mode, we need to open the government, and raise debt ceiling, and we have 3 pieces in place now, saying that by january 15 we should open the government until

january 15. we should raise the debt ceiling until february 7. and that the negotiators should otheriate on thiate negotiate oe budget, and report back to on december 13. there was no mention of defunding the affordable care act or rolling it back or stopping the date of enablement. a lot of this debate, increases, has been built around the republican party, trying to achieve through the budget process, what they could not achieve at ballot box. now we're returning to regular order, that is a good thing. charles: a lot of people argue that the republicans mishandled this, perhaps they are looking at ha happened in last week, figuring maybe, they obama carry stuff will self different trachon--self destruction on it.

so does a teal look like a continuation of sequestration, continued regular, higher debt ceiling and obamacare lives, is that what we're talking about? >> raising debt ceiling, continuing the government, and returning to regular order. having a budget process move forward. that is a positive. a positive, let's talk about it, you used term russian roulette. at in point, an unsustainable debt is that the ultimate game where we all suffer and our kids suffer. >> we have to brings down government spending, efficiencies we need greater efficiency in health care program. and other programs. but the -- if we had not come to conclusion that we'll raise our debt ceiling, the harm would have been tram at us it would have been deep and strong to the market.

some economists were saying that we were threatening the dollar as being reserv -- used as resev currency even. what a disaster it would be to the world economy and our own economy. today, i mitt with met with -- i met with furloughed workers, they were telling me they have no money to buy food. i am taking my salary, and donating it, it food panaries. charles: that is add mirror abl -- admirable, the fact that you speaking in past tense may be good news. i have to thank you, our time is over. appreciate every time you come on cram for us. >> thank you. charles: debt ceiling deadline two days away officially, time for talks to break down. if they do, can president obama raise the ceiling on his own?

a top attorney who said, yes he can. when we made our commitment the gulf, bp had two b goals: help the gulf recover and learn from what happened so we could be a better, safer energy company. i can tell you - safety is at the heart of everything we do. we' added cutting-edge technology, like a new deepwater well cap and a ste-of-t-art monitoring center, whe experts watch over all drilling activity twenty-four-seven. and we're sharing what we've learned, so we n all produce energy more safely.

nice car. sures. make a deal with me, kid, and you can ha the car and everything that goes along with it ♪ ♪ so, what do you say? thanknks... but i think i got this. ♪ [ale announcer ] the all-new cla set your soul free. [ale announcer ] the all-new cla peace of mind is important when so we provide it services you bucan rely on. with centurylink as your trusted it partner, you'll experience reliable uptime for the network and services you depend on.

multi-layered security solutions keep your information safe, and secure. and responsive dedicated support meets your needs, and eases your mind. centurylink. your link to what's next. ...amelia... neil and buzz: bylinging to the past. you're history. instead of looking behind... delta is looking beyond. 80 thousand of us investing billions. in everything fr the best experiences below... to the finest comforts above. we're t simply saluting history... we're making it. charles: a shut down lasting more than two weeks, and a debt ceiling deadline in two days,

with both sides not producing results, could the president constitutionally raise the ceiling on his own? top attorney randy zellin said absolutely. >> yes. and point great point is, do it. who cares whether or not you are actually right down the road, by the time. you will belong out of the office by the time supreme court getting to say you know, you could do it or you can't this goes back to civil war. back in days we wanted to let everyone know, if we owe you money, and you supported the union, don't worry, you will be paid. confederates target it you get nothing. charles: i am encroaching deep into your territory. the how i see the 14 amendment. about citizenship, and due

process, and equal protect, but the phrase, valid di validity oe public debt shall not be questioned. from that, you interpret that gives president right to supercede congress, and take control of purse strings and keep borrowing money. >> i believe that was justice evans for supreme court, saying, i know it has to do with civil war but we can take it beyond, when you have a crisis, and you want to ensure to the world, that hey the government is going to pay the debts. charles: has america shifted from a represented democracy to a dictatorship, do you think that the world would like that. >> the world wants to know we're paying our debt, no different if you take family out for dinner, you maxed on our credit card,

what do you do? you don't blame it on the restaurant, you don't blame it on father-in-law, you negotiate. charles: they come in say we owe mxs there are thousan$1,000, we0 right now. there is no doubt something is going up paid but we don't have to breach the fiduciary responsibilities of debt that people thought. >>ng is like that limit on our credit card. you can't go over it, they are not going to pay it bottom line, you cannot simply say to the restaurant, i'm sorry, i'm not paying the bill. really? you are going to be washing a lot of dishes. we're throwing the world into turmoil, even if you right, if presidenta wrong, does not matter here, if there is a

default, there will be world hysteria we'll be laughed at. charles: why do the think the president himself, a constitutional scholar. >> as best i can divine what the most powerful man in free world is thinking it comes down to a short-term issue, he is the president. he is the man. i'm not going to be bulliid by congress. it is the two-parents fighting over two should have put the cover in the electric sock it. while child is about to stake the hanger in. and long-term remember he will belong out of office it had his legacy, what impact will have have on party in terms of next election, if the democrats are the one that world believes are responsible for this. charles: so, how would i do it? president order treasury to continue to borrow money, there has been talk of minutes one giant platinum tri trillion dolr

coin or issuing script. >> put it off for another day, we'll deal it is in january or february, let's get back to work. and leave it for another day. charles: my opinion, i think we would actually see market get hitless if we went through the debt ceiling than president went ahead and evoked 14 amendment. >> the market hates uncertainty. >> all right. thank you. , randy. >> thank you. charles: federal workers are furloughed, paychecks cut, union bosses are open for business. president's friends maybe here free pass, next.

stick with innovation. stick with power. stick with technology. stick with innovation. get the flexcare platinum. new from philips sonicare.

ido more with less with buss energy.hp is help. soon, the world's most intelligent servers, designed by hp, willive ups over twice the performance, using forty percent less energy. multiply that across over a thousand locations, and they'll provide the same benefit to the environment as over 60,000 trees. that's a trend we can all get behind.

charles: some federal workers still furloughed. government union leaders are still on the clock, getting paid, exempt employees serving as union officials may continued to be granted official time in same manner as in a would under nonshut town conditions, new reports a tax would hit union health care plans, hard will be delayed. michelle fields and david callahan here, clashing it out. two good bits of news efficient the republican, michelle -- news for the uuions michelle. >> this is up fair, why are unions getting proven shall treatment -- preferencal

treatment. when it comes to his friends his buddies, well, they don't have to deal with the effects of the shut down. they are allow to have their job. with obamacare, the unions got to awful bill passed they lobbied for it, they should have to deal with the negative effects of obama carry just like everyone else. charles: david. >> i love you are looking for union give away, obama white house. charles: i think that the unions are looking forgive aways. >> they are knocking on the door. >> unions do not view barack obama as their bilg big buddy, s is a president who has not stepped forward to do what unions want, they wanted a major eextion -- e exception, now we have this excise tax, insurance

industry hates that tax. unions hate that tax. this is one thhng that democrats and republicans can agree on, one tax they can get rid of that will be great -- >> can american people do that go to congress, and say we want to be exempted from these aspects of obamacare, no they cannot. >> big business was exempted for a whole year. >> they can get what -- can't get what they want. charles: they spend everything in their -- they had, they borrowed millions to help the president get reelected, they want payback, they want largess, they of the everything they can get, and slowly but surely they are getting it. >> i would hardly say, well the main thing they wanted was

exception from obamacare, they did not get that, they well a whole regular saying that we -- resolution saying that we' that, obama administration said no. >> why should they even get an eexemption. charles: yes why. >> the excise tax is manage that insurance industry hates, this is a great bone to throw -- insurance industry. charles: how does this help the average american. we're watching from affair. insurance companies have another year to hike rates, big business gets a break now union, but what about the average person. >> i'm not saying it is a good idea, i'm just saying why this previously be on -- obscure tax is on the table. charles: michelle you start with

previously obscure taxes and work your way up. >> it is unfair to american people, why do unions get to pick and choose what they like and don't like. why not the american people. average joe, obama is always making e exemption for big business, and labor unions then he says he is there for middle class, that is not true. >> the people threaten to trash the economy over obamacare. >> the republicans are not trash -- >> our entire credit rating on the line here because of an attempt to sabotage obamacare. this is the most extremist thing we've seen in the u.s. congress. >> are you kidding me? tell me you are kidding me, this is -- the debt eiling is always used as political leverage, this happened under nixon, ted kennedy tried to attach an amendment to the debt ceiling,

it happened under carter, this happens all of the time. >> but we've never been this close to a default. we have the world community -- >> ted cun dee unde kennedy. >> are you aware of the -- >> stop the talking point. >> i'm not. >> i'm till you what we're hearing in the news. >> you are trying to say this has never happened. this is has happened. charles: david -- do you think that our economy -- we're at risk that we'll fall off a cliff, and implode, as a nation because that is a one of only battle feels that republicans have -- battle fields that republicans have. to fight. >> it feels like russian roulette. charles: really, you? >> i think that obama needs to be a leader, he is the leader of

the fry world, he cannot just sit back and say i'm not going to compromise, that is not what a leader does, he needs to participate in the political process, he refuses to do that. charles: thank you, guys, very spirited. almost halloween, what is scarier? an empty house floor days befo before. why small business owners find congress' lazy weekend truly scary. managing them, moving th, making them work. we oversee 20% of the world's financial assets. and that givess scale and insight no one else has. investnt management combineds with investment servicing. bringing the power of investments to people's lives. invest in the world. bny mellon.

charles: the foreign markets are open, a couple of them are up. australia, and japan. meantime, deadlines are coming congress decided to enjoyythe week. why not. it is a holiday week, house recessed most of saturday, all day sunday, and returned this

afternoon. imagine iffyou or i ditched work, when there was really serious work to be done? my next guest are small business owners who are fed up with washington. patty mcgreuely. known for getting in the president's face in 2009, and tj gentle, a small be ceo who met with the president last week, tj, what the heck is going on? they take a break? >> you know, i think if these guys had to run their own business, they would not be in business long. we would have worked through the week to work this out with a huge even occurring with the debt ceiling. charles: patty, a lot of time people try to equate government to. saying, we would never be in this pr problem, what is it that

you think these guys don't get about urgency and about their commitment and obligation to american public. >> i don't think they getting any, i don't think they care, this is old movie groundhog's day, or definition of insanity, we do the same thing over and over, expecting a different result, this is the fourth time we have faced this during bong. dodge, and two year -- during the obama administration, two years ago we had the super duper 8 people who would take care of this. i am looking for them with on the back of a milk carton, they disappeared. charles: tj you met with the president, what is your impression of the president taking a different approach on that, small business owners, we live and dial most day-to-day on our efforts and success. >> i think that you know first of all, it was an honor to be

asked to speak to the president of united states, but the purpose was to hear how the shut down and debt ceiling were affecting business owners. charles: do you think he took you seriously? did somehow -- listen we're talking about dc a government town over week, is anyone taking you ea seriously. >> you know, in the course of conversation president sad, how the shut down affected me, specifically that sort of 6 week punt on the debt ceiling, i said, you know putting the debt ceiling 6 weeks out, would actually put us in a negotiates crisis in the middle of holiday season that would be ca catastrophic not just to my business but all retail. he took that and had a meeting with speaker boehner, i was told it of group up. charles: patty ? >> tj, with all due respect, you

have to be kidding me. this was a photo op, they don't, name me one time this admmnistration talked to any small business owner and made a change as of something we said, there is a huge, huge disconnect with this obama administration. no one there has ever signed the front of a paycheck, they come in taught us out, we all pose for camera look nice and nothing changes, one example of whether they would listen to somebody like you, and you have real problem, you need help. but they are not going to change anything. name ni me one time in last 5 years that obama listened to small be community and made a change, that is what i see problem. >> i'll give you one, friday october 11, president asked me how 6 week pun on debt ceiling would affect, i told him, he talked with speaker boehner now proposed date is february 15. charles: tj, with all due

respect, i am jumping in we're running out of time, do you think that president was being sincere, don't you think that question he asked has been asked a million and one times. patty's point, you feel just maybe somewhat used or a prop or a pawn. because the president should know all things you discussed already that should have been an. it is to change things and have a certain degree of urgency. >> well, i mean, i certainly think that there are very smart people works in the administration, and when we say something by the time we saw it, it should have been said. but in a few cases, if the president's to talk to business people first hand, and hear how they will affect them that is better than a lobbiest. charles: i remember president's council big business council. >> they are gone. charles: and they were around they had no small business people on there to speak of.

you are great, we appreciate it talk you to soon. >> thank you. >> not sure if you watch the market today but stocks made a nice spike up. meet the guy who said when congress is out, stocks go higher, he has the numbers to prove it. thank you orville and wilbur... ...a. neil and buzz: for teaching us that you can't . by clinging to the past. and with that: you're history.

instead of looking behind... delta is looking beyond. 80 thousand of us investing billions... in everything from the best experiences below... to the finest comforts abo. we're not simply saluting history...

charles: stocks were up today, a great session, futures off to a strong start, investor hoping congress solves this debt mess, they believe they might, historically. when congress is out, of offers, stocks go up. -- out of office, stocks go up. congressional effort affect management found eric garcettiic -- eric sangar, it is interesting we hear wall street likes when dc is not doing much.

it is crazy because, i think most people will be surprised this market is up since the crisis began. >> well, wall street loves gridlock on a level, one thing that kind of surprises from sideline -- >> hole on one second, i think your -- there you go. we have a mic issue. but i think major indices, since government shut down up 1 to 2%, all right, you are miked up. >> is that better. charles: a lot. >> one thing that wall street realizes, before we do that this is not a shut down. this is a slowdown. government is operating with 83% capacity. if gm of operating at 83% capacity you would not say it is shut down you would say it's going along. so not as big a crisis as presented, and market realizes that congress is really gridlocked. and when you are really

gridlocked there not a big prospect of new man date. people understand they are not getting a lot done. charles: these things that coming ucontinues resolution, debt ceiling, everyone saying they are recurring crisis, map made if you will -- man-made, if you will, they have had some impact in the past on the mark market. could they be such a problem that recu recurrence slows the k market? >> s&p and moody's told us in 2011 they thought that congress had bad form, if you show chronic inability to gov inch it will take your toll -- govern it will take its toll. but, we don't be what day of reckoning. and in the past some slowdowns have not -- the market has not reacted. we had more margin for error. charles: here is high thing --

my thing, i view the spokeet as a selfish entity that does not care about a lot of things. how this is resolved, does -- wall street really does not care in their heart of hearts, smart guys down there, they -- even if they know we are going off a cliff, if we could just resolve it, we make money tomorrow that is the most paramount issue. >> absolutely, that is how wall street looks at it. there are a lot of factors other than congress, sense that money may be easier. that the economy is kind of you know moving along to a degree. charles: so, we get this resolved, we go to jaauary, smooth sailing from there on out, yellen not starting the taper, hat se that is evident. we keep printing press going, congress is still at a

stalemate, gridlocked to your point, historically that is a great backdrop for a market rally. >> you are right, and you are right, the market does not care about a individual. >> all right, worry about it later. >> thank you. charles: thank you, eric. >> and macy's thanksgiving day parade is an american tradition, macy's starting a new holiday tradition, this is a controversial issue for a lot of people, next.

charles: it's time for a tradition we know and love, the biz blitz, oh, and thanksgiving. macy's breaking a 155 year long tradition by opening stores 8:00 p.m. on thanksgiving day. you know retailers, is this a sign of smart business or desperate? >> a little bit of both. you know consumer confidence has been plummeting since we had debt and budget impasse in washington. but you just have to do this. funny, you would ask your mom to do something, you said, why do you want to do that, and you say all my friends are doing it. and she said, well would you jump off the cliff if they were jumping off the cliff, well, macy is jumping off the cliff, everyone else is doing it. charles: and to a money pool,

macy's might be craay not to to do this. >> the most important time of the year for retailer. if walmart is doing it, target, kmart, macy's has to do it, every second they are not open loses money for them, it is a good move for them, shareholders their employees and the rest. charles: stock has been beautiful chart, since bottoming in 2009, but it has pulled back, can people buy on weakness? >> i'm not sure, looking at charts of targets, walmart, macy's gap, they are not acting well, i think that consumer has some issues here. >> todd? >> well, they have showed some problem with the summer on, you know it just a pause that refreshes or is there a worry on their future earnings.

charles: issue number two, netflix, talking with several cable companies to offer netflix app in our cable box. i was pounding the table on this to high subscribers last week, what does this potentially mean for netflix? there strange bed fellows, nobody would believe that cable company would do this, but it benefits both ends, they are in competition. for people's eyes, and if one come over here and other over there. all is well, that ends well, they are all making big bucks, netflix, just everywhere my kids love it, everyone i know has it they are doing a great job of markets their business. charles: todd i agree, they keep coming up with new ways to impact the market. this looks like another one. >> i agree with you. it is amazing. net flex has about 35 million users, cable tv, and 11 hurt

million households look at potential that netflix still has. in the cable tv, it is a win-win on both sides, management has done up a a phenomenal job. charles: that one hiccup but his fantastic. and no deal in washington, clock is ticking down but the stock market goes up, gary, are you surprised by the resiliency of the market. do you think it continues ? >> i am we have a burc bunch of imabouibeciles running the couny right now, we have here is yell yellen aisle. yellennitis. she is going to make bernanke look like pau paul volcker.

>> hard to argue with gary's assessment. it seems we learned how to celebrate mediocrate. >> i think that gary is being really nice, ibecile, gary please, speak truth fully next time. it is scary though. charles: why? >> juss what gary said, you know, you have softness in housing, you still have continue all softness in our employment. people are getting part-time jobs, we have an up. rate over 70%, does not look to get -- over 7% does not look to get better. >> the scary part for me this year earnings and revenue growth for the market are close to zero, and you have nazdaq up 25,

and s&p up 18, means valuations are going up, if earnings and revenue do not soar that means that market is going too far too fast, then all heck breaks loose down the line. charles: quickly, gary, todd, you still ride to wave until you don't ride it? >> heck yes. at this point in time, i have to tell you, almost feels bubblishous. you can get one of those moves. >> don't fight the fed. >> wiser words, appreciate it thank you. we'll talk soon. >> two days left until official debt ceiling deadline, is it a deal in the works? the latest from washington for you next. when we made our commitmt to the gulf, bp had two big goals:

help the gulf recover anlearn fromhat happened so we could be a better, safer energy company. i can tell you -afety is a the heart of everything we do. 've added cutting-ee technology, like a new deepwater well cap and a state-of-the-art motoring center, whe experts watch over all drilling activity twenty-four-seven. and we're sharing what we've learned, so we can all pruce energy more safely. our commitment has ner been stronger.

>> i think it's safe to say we made substantial progress, we look forward to making more

progress in the near future. >> perhaps tomorrow will be a bright day, we're not there yet. charles: well, still no deal, but signs of progress. what should we expect tomorrow? to rich edson on capitol hill. it sounds better than it has for a while. >> this is the most positive we've heard. looking at tomorrow, republicans meeting in senate at 11:00, house opens. there is in there release perhaps, some discussion, perhaps the house will vote on some type of debt ceiling language tomorrow that would be away for sense t senate to fast. the negotiations are still on anything, they are still trying to iron out. how long to keep the debt ceiling going for, and keep government open for. there is other. they might bridge obamacare back

in, when you move one segment out, you change a date, w you he to move the rest of the pieces. charles: one person has to approve it, one body, they would have to cut a deal soon, come to an agreement for us not to hit that official deadline for the debt ceiling. >> they wouldnese every u.s. senator -- womb neeu.s.sense --. senator. if we have one senator who wanted to block this, they could likely do that it takes so long to getting any done in the senate, the house is different, you could get something done quickly, but where speed is the problem in senate, the votes are probably the problem in the house, there are a number of republican house members who looked at details that we've been reporting, saying they don't like the deal that much, there is no firm guarantee from

house speaker he would put it on the floor. he might but not confirmed. charles: rich, have you been doing great work, we'll nidal the help we can get from you it could, folks, thanks for watching. on "the willis rept." tens of millions of americans rely and social security are in for a shock to raise will not even by half a tank of gas. a new way to save u.s. postal service now say it is time f the ipo inducer way to get the cash from the atm with no card. we are watchin out for you. tonight to. gerri:e're starting with the latest ofhe