charles: the clock is ticking, the deadli is coming, signs a tell m be brewing, welco i am charles payne in for neil cavuto, senators harry reid, and macdougamcconnell trying to peal a deal. >> you are hearing a lot of nuers, when debt ceiling would be extended o, there are a number of different numbers they are influx. this is an ongoing negiation right now, between the top democrat, and topepubcan in the senate. part of the negotiations is know as sequester, democra want to fund government to january because they want to have discussion, negiaon

on those automatic spending cuts that were part of the debt deal a couple of years ago, ty believe it could be an opening to get rid o some cuts i exchange for revenue increases, creating problems for republicans here, and republans concerned about them wanting to increase spending levels without those offse we're told that republicans are standing firm on that par part of increases will spending, perhaps kicking the rest of negotiations to a process to come later. also a question of timin this. a lot of procedure in u.s. sense to the, if not every senator signs off on a fast track process it could take days to make it through. past the debt ceiling. anduestions to whether it would get through hou of representatives, if and when it is agreed to. a number ofouse republicans have been hearing the dails of th framework, and don't like

all this much, they feel they are being forced to to this democrats say, you went out there on obamacare, now we are comingut, saying we want increased spending. negotiations continue, republicans with a full conference meeting in senate tomorrow morning. they aretill talking. back to you. charles: thank you, rich. we're going to one of those republicans now, florida ngressman ted,ou made a ruckus here, becau. yo are in washinon d.c. saying this is a lot of hype we won't crumble as a nation if we don't raise the debt ceiling. >> charles, appreciate you having me on. and you know not raising the debt ceiling is n an automatic trigger for default. ody's talks about that.

we have enough money to service our debt to raise the debt this time is -- we're here because they have not addressed the problems in past congresses over last 20 years issue we hav raed debt ceing 14 times since 200 if rsing the debt ceiling is the answer we would not bealking about this we have to look at the spending side, growing the revenue side. charles: what abo the idea someone would have to pick and choose what gets paid. your pointt we have enough money to pay interest on the deb we owe . in the world but after that who decides what gets paid, who gets cut. >> secretary of treasury, mr mr. lew charles: let's say, that time they s we have enough money for a 10%air cut on socl

security or something else. do you think that e american puic would stand for that. >> number one, i am going to social security, no. but we nee to look at social programs, to make cuts right now, n cuts we need to do reforms in them, s the programs are there fr the safety net theyere designed t b if we don't do tha now, these programs are not going to be sustainable. the way we're going. we need to look at details that are coming out of the senate before we can i don't want to second guess them, but we could then make a decision. i am happy they are coming to the negotiation table. that to -- to deal with these problem that we've had over last course of last 4 weeks, we need to get arica bac back to work. charles: no doubt, a lot of people are frustrated this detracts from the facts weave an inept for the economy, sounds

like you are describing the grand bargain, certainly this does not seem like the time that will be cobbled together? >> i could not hear all that. charles: sounds like, you are describing would be the elusive grand bargain we've been loong for, for a long time, it does not seem that the right places are in place to happen this week. >> i think you are right, i don't thi they are there there until we see those, i don't want to speculate. but if we don't address this problem now, we had an opportunity in '89 and in between then and now, the question is when are we going to deal with the debt as a responsible country so future generations are not bogged down by this we don't want a short-te fix then go through this again, where peopl are la off, and deal with this

again. not in 6 months or 6 yea, we want to fix it we can then get on to other things to make erica more of when, grow middle class stron and bring people up out of lower income classes. you kno i don't disree with you, i think most would say the same, we have a minute left it feels that republicans in particular tea party losing the public relations battl what is it, that you are not saying, i get what you are saying, but what is it your colleagues are notaying to the american public that is n resonating where ds this disconnet. th nondistct, people think we have a government money tree behind the white house. how do we articulate your hess message to them. >> one thing is, not raising

debt ceiling not an also trigger for default,hat is the news. if we don't raise the debt ceiling we'll default, that is not true, look at our spending, and look at bills that will grow an economy. that is what we've said when we started to run that is how we got elected, i am staying to, that i believe that we as americans, we can address thi problem. and by addressing those problems, if should stabilize the market, not just our market in america but the world. if not, i mean you heard china say, you better t your debt under control, i would think they wou being a sigh of relief to s us addressing this problem. where we can get it under control. charles: we would all brehe that sigh of relief. to your point, markets are since it began. represent stifrepresentative you

very much. >> thank you. >> we're playing russian roulette with the economy, we have to hike the debt ceiling, congresswoman welcome to the show, your colleague made a point this is a fantastic environment to com up with somethg very close on a sort of grand bargain the econo slowing, real wages decreasing, this migh be the time to address it all. >> well, it is at ways important who -- always important when negotitiating to come up with answers, we're in a crisis mode, we need to open the government, and raise debt ceiling, and we have pieces in place now, saying that by january 15 we should open the government until

january 15. we should raise the debt ceiling until february 7. and thathe negotiators should otheriate on thiate negotiate oe budget, and report back to on december 13. there was noention of defunding the affordable care act or rolling it back or stopping the date of enablement. a lot ofhis debate, increases, has been built around the republican party, trying to achieve thrgh the budget process, what the could not achieve at balt box. now we're returning to regular order, that is a good thing. charles: a lot of people argue that the republicans mishandled this, perhaps they are looking at ha happened in last week, figuring maybe, they obama carry stuff will self different trachon--self desuction on its . so does a teal look like a

continuation of sequestration, continued regular, higher debt ceiling and obamacare lives, is that what we're talking about? >> raising debt ceiling, continuing the government, and returning to regular order. having a budgetrocess move foard. that is a pitive. a positive, let's talk about it, you used term russian roulette. at in point, a unsustainable debt i that the ultimateame where we all suffer and our kids suffer. >> we have to brings down government spending, efficiencies we needreater efficiency in health care program. and other programs. but the- if we had not come to conclusion that we'll raise our debt ceiling, the harm would have been tram at us it would have been deep and strong to t market. some economists were saying that

we were threatening the dollarr as b being reserv -- used as rev currency even. what a daster it would be to the world economy and our own ecomy. today, i mitt with met with -- i me with floughed workers, ey were telling me they have no money to buy food. i am taking my salary, and donating it, it food panaries. charles: that is add mirror abl -- admirable, the fact that you speaking in past tense may be good news. i have to thank you, our time is over. appreciate every time you come on cram for us. >> thank you. charles: deb ceiling deadline two days away officially, time for talkso break down. if they do, can president obama raise the ceiling on his own?

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charles: a shut down lasting more than twoeeks, and a debt ceiling deadlin in two days,

with both sides not producing results, could the president constitutionally raise the ceiling on his own? top attorney randy zellin said absolutely >> yes. and point great pnts, do it. who cares whether or not you are actually right down the road, by the time. you will belon out of the office byhe time supreme court getting to say you know, you coul do it or you can't this goes back to civil war. back i days we wanted to let everyone know, if we owe you money, and you supported the union, don't worry,ou will be paid. confederates target it you get nothing. charles: i am encroaching deep into your territory. the how i see the 14 amendment. about citizenship, and due process, and equal protect, but

the phrase, valid di validity oe public debt shall not be questioned. from that, you interpret that gives president right to supercede congress, and take control of purse strings and keep borrowing money. >> i believe that was justice evans for supreme court, saying, i know it has to do with civil war but we can take it beyond, when you have a crisis, and you want to ensure to the world, that hey the government is gng to pay the debts. chles: has america shifted from a represented democra t a dictatorship, do you think that the world would like that. >> the world wants to know we're paying our debt, no different if you take family out for dinner, you maxed on our credit card, what doou do?

you don't blame it on the restaura, you don't blame it on father-in-law, you negotiate. charles: they come in say we owe mxs there are thousan$1,000, we0 right now. there is n doubt something is goingp paid but we don't have to breach the fiduciary responsibilities of debt that peop thought. the debt ceiling is like that limit on our credit card. you can't go ov it, they are not going to pay it bottom line, you cannot simply say t the restaurant, i'm sorry, i'm not paying the bill. rely? u areoing to be washing a lot of dishes. we're throwing the worldnto turmoil, even if you right, if presidenta wrong, doesot matter here, if there is a

default, there will be world hysteria we'll be laughed at. charles: why do the think the president himself, a constitutional scholar. >> as best i can divine what the most powerful man in free world is tnking it comes down to short-term issue, he is the presidt. he is the man. i'm not going to be bulliidy congress. its the two-parents fighting er two should have put the cover in the electric sock it. while child is about to ske the hanger in. and lg-term remember he will belong out of office it had his legacy, wt iact willave ha on party in terms of next election, if the democrats are the one that world believes are responsible for this. charles: so, how would i do it? president order treasury to continueo borrow money, there has been talk of minutes one giant platinum tri trillion dolr

coinr issuing script. >> put it off for another day, we'll deal it is in january or february, let's get back to work. and leave it for another day. charles: my opinion, i think we would actuall see market get hitless if we went through the debt ceiling than president went ahead and evoked 14 amendment. >> the market hates uncertaty. >> all right. thank you. >> thank you. charles: federal workers are furloughed, paychecks cut, union bosses are open forusiness. president's friends maybe here next.

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charles: some federal workers still furloughed. govent union leaders are still on the clock, getting paid, exempt empyees serving as union officials may continued to be granted official time in same manner as in a would under nonshut town conditions, new reports a tax would hit union healthare plans, hard will be delayed. michelle flds and david callahan here, clashing it out. two good bits of news efficient the republican, michelle -- news for the uuions michelle. >> this is up fair, why are ions getting proven shall treatment -- preferencal

treatment. when it comes to his friends his buddies, well, they don't have to deal with the effects of the shut down. they a allow to have their job. with obamacare, the unions got to awful bill passed they loied for it, they should have to deal with the negative effects of obama carry just like everyone else. charles: david. >> i love you are lookingor union give away, obama white house. charles: i think that t unions are looking forgive aways. >> they are knocking on the door. >> unions do not view rack obama as their bilg big buddy, s is a president who has not stepped forward to do what unions want, they wanted a major eextion -- e exception, now we have this excise tax, insurance

industry hates that tax. unions hate that tax. this is one thhng that democrats and republicans can agree on, one tax they can get rid of that will be great -- >> can american people do that go to congress, a say we want to be exempted from these aspects of obamacare, no they cannot. >> big businessas exempted for a whole year. >> ty can get what -- can't get what they want. charles: they spend everything in their -- they had, ty borrowed millions toelp the president get reelected, they want payck, they wan largess, they ofhe everything they can get, and slowly but surely they are getting it. >> i would hardly say, well the main thing they wanted was

exception from obamacare, they did not gethat, they well a whole regular saying that we -- resolution saying that we' that, obama ainisation said no. >> why should they even get an eexemption. charles: yes why. >> the excise tax is manage that insurance industry hates, this is a great bone to throw -- insurance industry. charles: how does this help the average american. we're watching from affair. insurance companies have another year t hike rates, big busins ge areak now union, but what about the average person. >> i'm not saying it is a good idea, i'm just saying why this previously be on -- obscure tax isn the table. charles: michelle you start with

previously obscure taxes and work your way up. it is unfair to american people, why do unions get to pick and choose what they like and don't like. wh not the american people. average joe, obama is always making e exemption for big business, and labor unions then he says he is there for middle class, that is notrue. >> the people threaten to trash the economy over obamacare. >> the republicansre not trash -- >> our entire credit rating on the line here because of an attempt to sabotage obamacare. this is the mos extmist thing we'v seen in the u.s. congres >> are you kidding me? tell me you are kidding me, this is -- the debt eiling is always used as political leverage, this happened under nixon, ted kennedy tried to attach an amendment to the debt ceiling,

it happened under carter, this happens all of the time. >> but we've never been this closeo a default. we have the world community -- >> ted cun dee unde kennedy. >> are you aware of the -- >> stothe talking point. >> i'm not. >> i'm tl you what we're hearing in the news. >> you are trying to say this has never happened. this is has happened. charles: david -- do you think that our economy -- we're at risk that we'll fall off a cliff, and implode, as a nation because that is ane of only battle feels that replicans have -- battle fields that republicans have. to fight. >> it feels like rusan roulette. charles: really, you? i think that obama needs to be a leader, he is the leader of

the fry world, he cannot just sit back and say i'm not going to compromise, that is not what a leader does, he needs to partipe in the political process, he refuses to do that. charles: thank you, guys, very spired. almost halloween, what is scarier an empty house floor days befo before. why small business owners find why small business owners find congress lazy weekend truly when we made our commitment to the gulf, bp had two big goals: help the gulf recover and learn fromhat haened so we uld be a better, safer energy company. i can tell you - safy is at the heart of everything we do. we've added cutting-edge technology, like a new deepwater well cap and a state-of-the-art monitoring center, whe exper watcover all drilling activity twenty-four-seven. and we're sharing what we've learned, so we can all produce energyore safely. our commitment has never been stronger.

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charles: the foreign markets are open, a couple of them are up. australi and japan. meantime, deadlines are coming congressecided t enjoyythe week. why not. it is a holiday week, house recessed most of saturday, all day sunday, and returned this

afternoon. imagine iffyou or i ditched work, when there was really seriou work to be done? my next guest are small business owners who are fed upith washington. patty mcgreuely. known for getting in the president's face in 29, and tj gentle, a small be ceo who met with the president last week, tj, what the heck is going on? they take a break >> you know, i think if these guys had to run their own business, they would not be in siness long. we would have workedhrough the weeko work this out with a huge even occurring with the debt ceiling. charles: patty, a lot of time people try toquate government to. saying, we would never be in this pr problem, what is it that you think these guys don't get

about urgency and about their commitment and obligationo american public. >> i don't think they getting any, i don't think they care, this is old movie groundhog's day, or definition of insanity, we do the same thing ove and over, expecting a different result, this is the fourthime we have faced this during bong. dodge, and two year -- during the obama administration, two years ago we ha the super duper 8 people who would take care of this. i am looking for them with on the back of a milk carton, they disappeared. charles: tj you met with the president, what is your impression of the president king a different approach on that, small business owners, w live andial most day-to-day on our efforts and success. >> i think that you know first of all, it was an honor to be

kedo spe to the president of united states, but the purpose was to hearow the shut down and debt ceiling were affecting business owners. charles: do you think he took you serioly? did somehow -- listen we're talking aut dc a gernment town ove week, is anyone taking you ea seriously. >> you know, in the course of conversation president sad, how the shut down affected me, specifallyhat sor of 6 week punt on the debt ceiling, i said, you know putting the debt ceiling 6 wks out, would actually put us in a negotiates crisis in the middle of holiday season that would be ca catastroic not just to my business but all retail. he took that poi, and had a meeting with speaker boehner, i was tol it of group up. charles: patty ? >> tj, with all due respect, yo have to be kidding me.

this was a photo op, they don't, name me one time this admmnistration talked to any small business owner and me a change as of something we said, theres a huge, huge disconnect with this obama administration. no one there has ever signed the front of a paycheck, they come in taught us out, we all pose for camera look nice and nothing changes, onexample of whether they would listen t somebody like you, and you have real problem, you need help. but they are not going to change anything. name ni me one te in last 5 years that obama listened to small be community and made a change, that is what i see proble >> i'll give you one, friday october 11, president asked me how 6 week pun on debteiling would aect, iold him, he talked with speaker bhner now proposed date is february 15. charles: tj, with all d due respect, i am jumping in we're

running out of te, do you think that preside was being sincere, don't you think that question he ask has been asked a million andne times. patty's point, you fl just maybe somewhat used or a prop or a pawn. because the president should know all things you discussed already that should have been an. it is to change things and have a certain degree of urgency. >> well, i mean, i certainly think that therere ver smart pele worksn the administration, and when we say something by the time we saw it, it should have bee said. but in a few cases, if the president's to talk to business people first hand, and hear how they will affect them that is better than a lobbiest. charles: i remember president's council big bess council. >> they a gone. charles: and they were around they had no small business people on thereo speak of.

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charles: stockwere up today, a great session, futures off to a strong start, investor hoping congress solves this debt mess, they believe they might, historically. when congress is out, of offers, stocks go up. -- out of office, stocks gop. congressional effort affect management foundric garcettiic -- eric sangar, it is interesting we hear wall street likes when dc is not doing much.

it is crazy because, i think most people will be surprised thisarket is up since the crisis began. >> well, wall street loves gridlock on a level, one thing at kind of surprises from sideline -- >> hole on one second, i tnk your -- there you go we have a mic issue. but i think major iices, since government shut down up 1 to 2%, all right, you are miked up. >> is that better. charles: a lot. >> one thing that wall street realizes, before we do that this is not a shut down. this is a slowdown. government is operating with 83% capacity. if gm of operating at 83% cacity you woould not say it is shut down you would say it's going along. so not as big a crisis as presented, and market realizes that congrs is really gridlocked. and when you are really

gridlocked there not a big prospect of new man date. people understand they are not getting a lot done. charles: these things that coming ucontinues resolution, debt ceiling, everyoneaying they are rurring crisis,ap made if you will --an-made, if you will, they have had some impact in the past on the mark market. could ey be such a problem that recu recurrence slows the k mark? >> s&p and moody's told us in 2011 they thought that congress had bad for if you show chronic inability to gov inch it will take your toll -- govern it will take its tol but, we don't be what day of reckoning. and in the past some slowdowns have not --he marke has not reacted. we had more margin for error. charles: he is high thing --

my thing, i view the skeet a a selfish entity that doe not care about lot of things. how this is resolved, does -- wall street really doe not care in their heart of hearts, smart guys down there, they -- even if they know we are going off a cliff, if we could just resve it, we make money tomorrow that is the most paramount iue. >> absolutely, that is how wall street looks at it. ere are a l of factors other than congress, sense that money may be easier. that the economy is kind of you know moving along to a degree. charles: so, we get this resolved, we go to jaauary, smooth sailing from there on out, yellen not srting the taper, hat se that is evident. we keep pnting press goi, congress is still at a

stalemate, griocked to your point, historically that is a greatackdrop f a market rally. >> you are right, and you are right, the market does not care about a individual. >> all right, wry about it later. >> thank you. charles: thank you, eric. >> and macy's t thanksgiving day parade is an american traditi, macy's starting a new holiday tradition, this is a controversial iss for a lot of people, next. thank you orville and wilbur... .amelia... neil and buzz: for teaching us that you can't create the future... by clinging to the past. and with that: you're history. insteaof looking behind... delta is looking beyond.

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charles: it's time for a

tradition we know and love, the biz blitz oh, and thanksgiving. macy's baking a 155 year long tradition by opening stores 8:00 p.m. on thanksgiving day. you know retailers, ishis a sign of smart business or desperate? >> a little bit of both. you know consumer confidence has be plummeting since we had debt and budget impasse in washington. but you just have to do this. funny, you would ask your mom to do something, you said, why do you want to do that, and you say all my friends are doing it. and she said, well would you jump off the cli if they were jumping off the cliff, well, macy is jumping off the cliff, everyone else is doing it. charles: and to a money pool,

macy's might be craay not to to do this. >> the most important time of the year for retailer. if walmart is doing it, target, kmart, macs has to do it, every secondhey are not open loses money for them, it is a good move for them, shareholders their employees and the rest. charles: stock h been beauful chart, since bottoming in 2009, but it has pulled back, can people buy on weaess? >> i'm not sure, looking at charts of targets, walmart, macy's gap, they are not acting well, i think that consumer has some issues here. >> todd? >> well, they have showed some problem with the summer on, you kn it just a pause that refreshes or is there a worry on their future earnings.

charles: issue number two, netflix, talking with several cable companies to offer netflix app i our cable box. i was poundinghe tle on this to high subscribers last week, what does this potentially mean for netflix? there strange bed fellows, nobody would believe that cable company would do this, but it benefits both ends, they are in competition. for people's eyes, and if one come over here and other over there. al is well, that ends well, they are all making big bucks, netfx, just everywhere my kids love it, everyone know has it they are doing a great job of markets their business. charles: todd i agree, they keep coming up with new ways to impact the market. this looks le another one. >> i agree with you. it is amazing. net fle has about 35 million uss, cable tv, and 11 hurt

million households look at potential that netflix still has. in the cable tv, it is a win-win on both sides, management has done up a a phenomenal job. charles: that one hiccup but his fantastic. and no dea in washington, clock is ticking down t the stock market goes up, gary, are you surpsed by the riliency of thearket. do you think it continues ? >> i am we have a burc bunch of imabouibeciles running the couny right now, we have here is yell yeen aisle yellennitis. she is going to make bernanke look like pau paul volcker.

>> hard to argue with gary's assessment. it seems we learned how to celebrate medediocrate. >> i think that gary is being really nice, ibecile, gary please, speak truth fully next time. it is scary though. charles: why? >> juss what gary said, you know, you have softness in housing, you still have continue all softness in our employment. people are getting part-time jobs, we have an up. rate over 70%, doesot look to get -- over 7% does not look to get better. >> the scary part for me this year earnings and revenue growth for the market are close to zero, and you have nazdaq up 25, and s&p up 18, that means

valuations are going u if earnings andevenue do not soar that means that market is going too far too fast, then all heck breaks loose down the line. charles: quily, gary, todd, you still ride to wave until you don't ridet? >> heck yes. at this point in time, i have to tell you almost feels bubblishous. you can get one of those moves. >> don't fight the fed. wiser words, appreciate it thank you. we'll talk soon. >> o days leftntil official debt ceing deadline, is it a deal in the works? the latest fromwashington for you next.

>> i thinkt's safe to say we made substantial progress, we ok forwardo making more progress in the near future.

>> perhaps tomorrow wille a bright day, we're not there yet. charles: well, still no deal, butigns of progress. what should we expect tomorrow? to rich edson on capitol hill. it sounds better than it has for a while. >> this is the most positive we've heard. loing at tomorrow, republicans meeting in senate at 11:00, house opens. there is in there release perhaps, some discussio perhaps the house will vote on some type of debt ceiling language tomorrow that would be away for sense t senate to fast. the negotiations are still on anything, they are still trying to iron out. how long to keep the debt ceiling going for, and keep government open for. ther is other. they might bridge obamacare back

in, when you move one segment out, you change a date, w you he to move the rest of the pces. charles: one person has to approve it, one body, they would have to cut a deal soon, come to an agreement for us not to hit that officialeadline for the debt ceiling. >> they wouldnese every u.s. senator -- womb neeu.s.sense --. senator. if we have one senator who wanted to block this, they could likely do that itakes so long to getting any done in the senate, the house is different, you couldet something done quickly, but where speed is the problem in senate, t votes are probably the problem in the house, there are a number of republican house members who looked at details tha we've been reporting, saying they don't like theeal that much, there is no firm guarantee from

house speaker he would put it on the floor. he might but not confirmed. charles: rich, have you been a:a:a:a:a:a:a:a:a: until then we hour after hour. "money" with melissa francis is next. >> i'm adam shapi in for melissa francis. here is what is "money" tonight. >> i'm very optimistic. we reach, we will reach an agreement. it is reasonable in nature thi week. >> i share his optimism. that we're going to get a result that will be acceptable to both sides. >> andon't hold your breath but could a deal finally tly be within reach? one senator on the budget committee joins us with reaction to the very latest developments happening as i'm talking toou right now. plus, how bad are things for sac's steve cohen? he is selling some of the most valuable art onhe planet. it is all the wordn wall street. we've got the inside