three years. so let's do it. and that's our show. see you next week.foxandfriends the after the show show. thank you, everybody! first, the punt. now this week's d.c. deal kicking taxpayers in the rear with a nearly $3 billion bill for what's being called the kentucky kickback. and it didn't do one thing to cut back our debt. that just topped $17 trillion for the first time ever. so would no deal have been better than this deal? hi, everyone. i'm brenda buttner. this is "bulls and bears." and here they are. gary b. smith, tracy burns, jonas max farris, john layfield and david mercer. gary b., you say america got the

raw deal with this deal. how so? >> i honestly believe so, brenda. the whole reason we went through these shenanigans were to cut back on government, both spending and encroachment like obama care. instead, we got almost the exact opposite. so not only is the government spending more, but this kentucky kickback you talked about is indicative. you know, that was $2 billion extra that we've been appropated now from the american taxpayer. that original project was only supposed to cost $775 million. so the cost now of that is triple. and that's indicative of things like obama care, social security, medicare or medicaid. that's the whole reason we went through that, to cut down on ineffective government spending. instead, we're going the other way. we now have a debt more than 110% of gdp. we're getting into greece levels. >> jonas, you say, though, that no deal would have cost

taxpayers as well in higher borrowing rates and risked a default. >> i don't disagree of the scope of what gary said. just a clean debt increase, and then we just raised the debt and go back for our merry way. we got the worst of all three worlds, but we really didn't. there's one thing worse than the bridge and the pork, and that's how stuff gets done. the government you saw, $17 trillion debt. that's not like your mortgage due in 20 or 30 years. they have to roll that all the time. if their interest rate goes up even a few percent, all of a sudden you're talking about a trillion dollars in interest. then we really would be greece. and it would be so much more expensive than building a bridge in every state in the land. so, yeah. we got off a little better than it could have been, but it sure wasn't perfect. >> jonas, is no deal better than this one? >> look, we should have took default off the table. we have enough revenue coming in no matter what to take default

off the table. that would have assuaged the world market. that should have been done to begin with. but as far as the deal, i understand jonah's sentiment that this is government as usual. but this is supposed to be integrity, stomping your feet and making a stand. and then all of a sudden you throw this kentucky kickback to mcconnell, and the republicans say, let's just forget all about this and do absolutely nothing. we got no deal. we are on the exact same path we were 16 days before the shutout first started, and we are no further ahead right now. we are on our way to what gary b. is saying. somewhere down the line, it's going to be like greece. >> but the pork in this bill is far less than the bacon that we've seen in lots and lots of bills before. >> you're absolutely right. and the expenses jonas was alluding to of not reopening the government or ending the shutdown or coming anywhere near the prospect of defaulting and

not raising the debt ceiling was far greater than anything you see in the bill that ended the shutdown. and so, you know, let's put it in perspective. and to the earlier point made by gary, look, there could have been a conference of both the house and the senate on the budget back in april. in fact, boehner turned down 19 requests to get conferees and members around to talk about a budget to even avoid a shutdown and the cost of standard & poor's has put it at nearly $24 billion just for us shutting down the government. so it's a deal that had to be done, and it saved us a whole lot had it not been done. >> tracy, i see you shaking your head. >> that s&p number is an extreme number. and at the end of the day, we'll be just fine. the government was never going to shut down, and we were never going to default. why scare the public? why does this happen all the time? and this will never change unless we change the system altogether. because the notion this is just

how things get done in washington is a joke. we need term limits. we need these guys to go home. everything is about the next vote. mcconnell got his kickback because he needs to bring it home to get himself re-elected again. and that happens over and over and over again. it's i'll give you this if you give me that. it is nothing about us at home. they could give a damn. they just want to be able to get the good tables at the restaurant. the system is totally flawed. it will happen over and over again. and you watch, three months from now we'll be doing this all over again, and the best part is we add in vacations and all of those days off, they'll have four days to figure this out. deja vu all over again. >> and that's why i think that mcconnell said there will not be another shutdown. and that's the point. we did not have to be here in the first place. had it not been for the tea party and the kind of requests they were making and the demands they were making. >> we could point fingers all

over the place. you know, the point is, gary, that when we hit the next debt ceiling, we'll be in the middle of the campaign of 2014. and then, you know, who knows how much pork there will be in the next bill? >> well, there's going to be a lot more, brenda. we're going to roll this forward and forward. it's will the guy falling out the 40-story building, and he's down to the first floor and says, so far, so good. eventually, it's going to be splat. and david said, all this pain and woe that we avoided. yes, we keep avoiding it by pushing it forward. at some point, david's grand children will have to pay the bills. that's what the a party and everyone else is worried about. i think that's the responsible attitude to have, to be worried about what our grandchildren are going to pay instead of just saying, hey, we're going to spend it. we have to keep things open. we've got to do this. we've got to do that. no. as tracy points out, at some point, someone has to stand up

and say, no, we're not going to do it anymore. >> you're right, gary. >> hold on a minute, i want to ask john a question. this basically doesn't deal with the core issue, which is entitlements. they never can face that. will we ever get there? >> we're going to have to at some point. i hope we get there soon. look, we had erskine bowles. i don't know what kind of commission they'll put together. but -- >> it was a super committee last time. the super duper this time. >> they spent nine months on it. these guys are talking about spending six weeks on something. and the president said he would stand by it. before he even saw it, he was disavowing it. remember senator obama said in 2006 it's a lack of leadership to have to deal with a debt ceiling. it was right about president bush when he said it, and it's true right now about him. it's a complete lack of leadership, integrity, and character in washington, d.c., right now. you can buy any of these guys off if you just give them a

little pork. >> but you're never going to talk about entitlements if you don't fix the system because that's political suicide to talk about cutting grandma's social security check. and then you talk about quitemenquit quitemequit entitlements, they talk about taxes. so it's never going to get done. >> it would be awesome if you could have a small train wreck today to prevent a much larger train wreck down the road. but having a large train wreck today so you don't have one later doesn't make sense. italy has never defaulted. they pay 4.5% on government debt. we couldn't afford that with the amount of debt we have. we would have to cut everything to make interest payments. so just getting to the place where investors don't trust us is something we can't handle at this point. we have to be careful in how we fix this long-term problem. and i guess we'll never fix it because people aren't ready to address it. well, from d.c. losing money to retailers going after more,

what macy's and jcpenney are doing on turkey day that has critics crying foul. but is anything wrong with it? the cavutgang is debating it. but first, more moms and dads slamming the brakes on their road to retirement. think that's bad for them? well, it could be a whole lot worse for their kids. we'll explain. ññññññ7

parents, grab your kids for

this one. a new poll showing almost half of all workers over 50 are delaying their retirement plans. most of them citing financial concerns. john, you say this is a bad news -- very bad news for their kids who are looking for work. >> absolutely. we have structural high unemployment in the united states. we're not built for this. this is not cyclical. lower rates are hurting the problem because seizures can't make very much off of their retirement income. if you have over 20% of seniors that are staying in the work force because they need the money. there's only a certain number of jobs out there. we are the only developed country in the world with no national energy plan. and because of that, there's no job creation event on the horizon. >> unemployment for younger kids, in their 20s, is really, really high, tracy. do you think this is part of the problem? and will it get worse? >> i think it will, unfortunately, if our kids don't

take showers and stop swearing and things like that because if your choice is between a well-dressed, elderly person who is responsible and shows up or some kid that's going to come in, god knows what he did the night before, the job going to the elderly employee. and i think that's kind of where a lot of our kids are these days. we need a little work ethic back into the system. >> jonas, what do you make of this? >> i don't think people working is bad for an economy. yeah, it's not ideal. you can't retire at 65 necessarily. you just live off of your social security and investments because you're going to live a lot loer because of the health care system, which means you have to work longer. and you're working, you're probably going to be spending more money. it's good for the economy. is it ideal for new workers a high unemployment level? no, but for everybody it's great. for employers who want to have skilled workers at a low wage for profits, it's really great. >> but, gary, the problem here is really why they are working

longer. many of them because they have to. they can't retire. they lost a lot of money in the recession, and they are not making it up now. >> exactly, brenda. those young people that tracy talked about, even without their showers and their poor work ethic, they would be able to get jobs if the economy was growing like it did in the '90s. unfortunately, you have home prices that inflation adjusted are back still at 1990 levels. you have a stock market in place and adjusted at 1998 levels. gdp is flat. income is flat. this economy has done nothing. and we talked for a second about government overreach. as the government grows, the gdp and private sector slow down. people can't afford to retire. if i retired and got out of my job, god bless some kid could come in. i can't afford it. and i think probably everyone here except for maybe david, the rich guy, is in the same boat. >> let's go to david. >> well, listen, i think that it's -- you know, people have to, as you alluded to, brenda,

they have to continue working because they lost value in their pensions with going through the recession and so forth. and there's nothing wrong with having productive, you know, members of the american economy remaining productive. i think that what we need to do is to stimulate more growth, continue in the recovery from the recession, and with that, you have both younger workers getting more jobs and also those allowing themselves in retirement to continue to afford to retire. >> john, i bet you have something to say about spending more money to stimulate the economy. >> that's what we're doing. we've got to stimulate growth, and all we're doing is raising taxes. we put in a new tax called obama care on small businesses. we do need to stimulate growth, but we are doing the opposite of what needs to be done as a government to stimulate the exact same thing that is the thing that will create jobs in this country. >> and the other thing too. part of the reason our elderly

people are in the situation they're in is because of the government. because they had to pay for their kids to go to college and they dipped into their retirement funds to do it, because they had to pay for elderly family members. so they are the sandwich generation coming to roost now. they are paying for everythg. there's nothing left. and to boot, they have probably been hit by the tech bubble bursting. they were hit six ways to tuesday. to spend more money and to tax them more, oh, my god. >> but we've had 6.5 million jobs created in the last three years. in the private sector. we've lost 730,000 public sector jobs. so it is not government that is looking to make up the difference. we need to continue to grow the economy in the private sector, and we have been seeing that. and we have a lower unemployment rate. >> lowest report participation

rate since 1978, jimmy carter. the people's house reopening to the people. those tours are coming back. but does this move by the white house just prove they never had to did away in the first place?

that's right. welcome back. after being closed for tours the past 224 days, the white house is reopening on november 5. you'll recall the obama

administration said it didn't have the money because of those mandatory spending cuts. now those cuts are still in place. but now the white house says it has the money. tracy, you say it had the entire time. >> it's called prioritizing. we all do it at home. you know what you have to pay. don't spend on the crap you don't need. all they constantly do is stuff for media attention and to show you the poor little johnny standing at the white house doors crying that he can't get a tour. it's all for publicity. it's nonsense. we could have taken care of this a long time ago. >> david, if this was because of the sequester, the sequester is still on. >> i think with the sequester for a lot of americans and everybody in general, you have to do more with less. and that is exactly what they issued in their statement, was that despite the sequester budget, that they have learned in adjusting to the sequester to still be able to an extent

return to having the tours at the white house. and it's an adjustment. it's not a matter of spending money that isn't there. it's a matter of getting the things done under less or smaller budgets. >> gary b., what do you think about that, the govement under less and smaller budgets? >> i listened very, very closely to what david said. and with all due respect, i didn't understand one darn word. look, the white house was closed because they said it was a sequester. they could not differentiate one program or another. they were too stupid to do that. they are smart enough to have the nsa spy on everyone's emails, but they can't somehow prioritize. the sequester is still on. and somehow the white house is open. something's fishy here. it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. >> well, gary, they are doing it with less people and less money. >> why couldn't that do that before? >> because they had to adjust.

that's what they had to do. >> let's go to our rocket scientist. jonas, what do you say? >> yellow stone and the white house is not what's bankrupting this country. and unfortunately, what this exercise in brief thrift that the government has operated under, all of the stuff that is bankrupted has kept going on. the checks all went out for social security and medicare. it was the little things that don't make any sense. and of some of that is political. you're trying to show that it's suffering and you want to get your political way. but it's also because they don't know how to run the business. if coke had to run with 10% less money, may donthey don't turn o electricity. they maybe cut back on the advertising budget. if you think you're going to get a sensible sound cutback when they do it, you're not. and unfortunately, it's why it

strengthens government. >> john? the last word. >> jonas talks about something sensible in politics and we agree. the best tour that needs to happen is the tour of 535 members of congress leaving d.c. and locking the door behind them. this idea of free pizza didn't work. it's a matter of prioritizing just like gary b. andsay. it's simple. live within your means. they are still not doing that. >> last word. thanks, guys. and thanks to david for joining us. we appreciate it. forget supercomputer spying on your emails. secret

predictions. gary b., take it away. >> i'm throwing in the towel. obama care, whether you like it or not, is going to survive and grow like a bad weed. you might as well take advantage of it. buy etna, one of the health care insurance providers. >> bull or bear? >> bear. >> what is your prediction? >> al gore says that old companies are the next subprime. there's a reason this guy couldn't win his own home ste. he is crazy. chevron up 20%. >> do you like that, jonas? >> bear. >> tracy, your prediction. >> google closed over $1,000 for the first time, and all the tech bubble freaks come out. it's not a bubble. it's a boom here. it's got legs. >> jonas, your prediction? >> nabisco owns oreo.

they just found out they are like drugs. but they are making cameras to spy on you at the grocery store. 20% in a >> bull or bear? >> i'm a bull on john's coat. neil cavuto right now. >> in it to win it. but are they in it to win it for themselves and not for you? hello, everyone. i'm charles payne in for neil cavuto. after passing a deal that solves nothing, congress is taking another break. any wonder voters are saying give me a break? 74% of americans want to throw the bums out. would that solve the problem? let's find out. we'll go to dagen mcdowell, charlie and larry. larry, throw the bums out. it's the universal cry. would that be the answer? >> it sounds good to me. look, the single greatest asset we possess as a nation is our credibility and our