the chinese economy. if you think the chinese economy is going to continue to do great, buy it. otherwise, that's a risk. >> you did great. thanks a lot. david asman, "forbes on fox" is next. my man, dave. here he is. well, forget about the politicians. how did obamacare come off at the end of the debt deal in some democrats say obamacare was a big winner since the changes that republicans wanted didn't happen. but check out these headlines. former obama press secretary robert givens calling the exchange glitches "excruciatingly embarrassing." only 1% of the website visitors signing up. aetna ceo knocking the law. hospitals lay off workers in part because of the law. on and on and on. so did obamacare come out this week as the big loser? hi, everybody. i'm david asman. welcome to "forbes on fox." in focus with mr. steve forbes. rick unger.

mike osanian. rich karlgaard. and john tandy. was obamacare the bigger or the loser? >> it's a big loser because it will be implemented. make no mistake this is the obama's administration vietnam for the adolescent approach for healthcare. obama at the end of the administration will wish ted cruz and the republicans succeeded to defund it because they would have said obama and the foolish legislation from their themselves. >> rick, it was hard to avoid some of the headlines. i know the debt deal got a lot of attention. the shotdown got a lot of attention. when robert -- robert gibbs says it's excruciatingly notice. >> it's the first week. what can i tell you? i expect we'll see a headline graphic coming up showing that in oregon 10%, the amount of people who are uninsured in oregon was reduced by 10% last week. a big number.

california, 600,000 people now getting health coverage that didn't have it before. there are some victories in the states. the launch of the federal website, a disaster. you know what? it will get fixed. >> steve, actually, we can only guess how bad the federal health exchanges were. state exchanges are different. the federal health exchanges are the ones we're getting very, very mixed reporting on. the most we can calculate, all estimate is 50,000 people have been able to sign in all the way in the federal exchanges and they have to expect 7 million -- if they can't handle 50,000, how are they going to deal with 7 million? >> this thing is so complex. it's not glitches, david. this is beyond repair. obamacare short-term won politically but that is like saying the titanic won politically. it will still sink at the end of the day. that's why we are seeing rises in walgreen, private exchange that work. state exchanges do better than

the federal that gets to the point. why is the federal government in the business anyway? >> morgan, i know that a lot of private businesses have failures. but if they fail, they go out of business. if this was a private business, wouldn't it be out of business? >> not just yet. it doesn't matt every because it's not a private business. this is the government. at the end of the day i think obamacare is the winner. love it, hate it, tall problems with the exchanges, it doesn't matter. we saw a standoff over obamacare. we see the g.o.p. poll ratings in the toilet. we saw billions spent on a government shutdown. biting in to the economic growth. at the end of the day, what did we get for that? slightly tightped income verification, where consumer ace plying on the exchange. obamacare is here to stay. >> again, 7 million people supposed to be handled by the exchanges. alaska had five sign up and go through the process. five. how will they deal with 7 million? >> well, they can't. all the credible people who look at this stay it's based on 1990s technology.

here is the problem. it's 2013. and the people that aren't signing up, rick cited people that are signing up. the people that aren't signing run the people who pay for the people who need long-term coverage and are unable to get it. >> we don't know that yet. >> young, healthy people. young, healthy people are accustomed to good technology. 75% of those people who tried to sign up are quitting before they get to the end of the process. this is an economic disaster. >> a managerial disaster as well, mike. blue cross is hiring temps to deal with all this personal healthcare information because the process became so muddled in the computers. do you really want temps, temporary workers dealing with your private healthcare accounts? >> i think with all due respect, i think y'all are missing the main point of w president obama is behind this healthcare. this has nothing to do with improving the quality of healthcare. it has nothing to do with insuring the uninsured. if we wanted to do that, we

could have done it for a fraction of the $1.1 trillion it will cost over the next decade. the purpose of this is income redistribution. wealth redistribution. that is what obamacare is doing. >> at the least, rick, i can hear you smirking and laughing and everything, but this is a disaster. terrible stuff, dealing with people's healthcare. a very important thing. hold on. the fatal flaw of obamacare we're beginning to see, we heard about it before and now we see it in action, one-size-fits-all policy doesn't work. that is the problem with obamacare. isn't it? >> let me remind you of a few things. first, i don't know how to tell you this, the people who have been handling your healthcare information at your insurance company are not m.i.t. graduates. that is number one. number two, steve, this law was -- >> they're not temps, by the rick. they're not temps. >> so what? >> so what? they're people with experience dealing with healthcare issues not temporary workers. go ahead. >> steve, this law was written for states to handle their own

exchanges. the only reason there was a federal component put in to it was there was a presumption that one, two, three, a couple of states might not be able to handle it. it wasn't until people who decided to make this all political started telling red state governors let the fed do it. stay away from it. don't do it. this would have worked better if the states had done what they should have. because it is working where the states put their own exchanges to work. >> steve, the point is this is a federal system, federal law. the i.r.s., the feds are going to enforce this federal law. the feds are making a mess of it. >> the way the exchanges are designed, david, it will see a soaring of insurance premiums because people who sign on to this, the subsidies are limited. i mean the premiums are limited to a percept of their income. so -- a percent of their income. the insurers will jack up prices because those who apply are mostly those who need it now.

it will be a cost disaster. >> john, at the very least what this shows us once again this is not ready for primetime. we need a delay to get this order, if it ever gets in order. >> we need more than a delay. the federal government should simply not be doing this. if the feds tried to make cell phone usage universal we'd still have brick phones and be paying roaming charges. obamacare will be the proverbial brick phone for those unlucky enough to be ensnared in it. scrap it together. >> mike, i'm just wondering. should we all be surprised that a government program dealing with a sixth of the entire economy messes up? >> no, of course not. look at how the cost of other government healthcare programs like medicare and medicaid have gone up exponentially more than they said they would cost. this will cost a lot more. people who don't need coverage right away are not going to buy it because of the sharp penalties. the only way the government has gotten some states to comply is saying they are going to pay for the medicare. that is a quagmire that none

of them want to get in to. >> morgan, meanwhile, dealing with the rest of us, those who aren't forced to join these exchanges. we face real problems in terms of keeping our doctors, keeping our healthcare plan. we saw the cleveland clinic, president obama's favorite clinic having to fire people because of obamacare in part. the rest of rus in trouble, too. >> i don't think it's good either. but let it roll off. the political foibles and the standing off has delayed the inevitable. the fact that if obamacare is not going to work, let it roll out and not work. en we can make the changes. we can get it repealed. even republican senator mitch mcconnell saying the chances of this coming off the table before 2017 slim to none. >> even democratic senators right now are admitting it's a big mess. if it rolls out any more, who knows if it will be even a bigger mess than it is. we'll see. remember this? take a listen.

>> wow! that was just a commercial, of course, depicting china mocking us. now they really are mocking us in public with cartoons like this, depicting us as beggars. but are they the beggars?

forbes on fox. ♪ ♪ well, wouldn't you know it? china not waiting a nanosecond

to mock us over the debt mess. the state news agency if china says, "a self-serving washington has abused its super power status, introduced us to even more chaos in to the world. such alarming days when the denies of others are in the hands of a hypocritical nation that has to be terminated and a new world order should be put in place." wow! tough stuff. rich, doesn't china actually need us more than we need them? >> china does need us more than we need them. they are an export-driven economy. they have been growing at nearly 10% a year for the last 20 years. now they are slowing to about 7%. they are terrified of the internal revolution. 75 p.c. of the chinese population has not really benefited from the 30-year miracle in china. and so, things are very intense internally. that was said for internal consumption in china. >> so rick, it doesn't sound from what rich is saying like china is in the driver's seat.

>> first, i have to give a shout out for the producers for finding that commercial. that thing was awesome. i don't know where you found that. look, the reality is if you think that it's only china who is making fun of us after the past few weeks, you're dreaming. every country out there is mocking us for what the republicans put us through. do we need china? of course we need china. of course china needs us. to try and measure this like who needs each other worse, how silly is that? >> but, john, you can measure it. we are a greater country than china, are we not? >> that's what we say about them. >> we are and it's easy to say because china is the poorer country, they get more from us than we do from them. that is the beauty of free trade. both sides benefit. the chinese have the huge export market to sell to. but for americans, every day the chinese get up and go to work, americans get a raise and a lifestyle enhancement. so yes, it's great for china, but china is embrace of free markets is one of the greatest things that happened to the american economy in modern times. >> let's hope it continues in

that direction. we have to remember right now, steve, it's still a communist country. >> that's right. china has 44 million small business, most operate in the twilight zone. only now are they allowing lie senses to deal with the 44 million new business, small businesses. they've also got to bring in a commercial system and allow more property rights. so yes, china is on the right path but they have to do more if they want to be a great economic innovative power. >> mike, in this whole debt negotiation, we heard rhetoric about the hostage taking and everything else. the fact is we may not like it but china holds a lot of u.s. government debt. i think $1.3 trillion of u.s. government debt is held by china. that is 23% of all the foreign-held u.s. government debt. it's scary when you thin of how much power they could empower themselves with if they wanted to. >> i get what you are saying, david.

but by the same token if they were hoping for to us do bad or if we did do bad economically, then their bond investors would be hurt. i don't think it's in their interest -- >> w the they use the rhetoric against us? >> the president has given them an opportunity to. you have to remember, president obama has set this country back many years by his weak leadership. remember, i thought really the point was when he was looking for support to bomb syria. he got no support. the british turned him down, arab league turned him down, u.n. gave him a slap across the face. he had to go on his hands and knees begging putin to bail him out. that showed in terms of a global power how far we have fall within the president. >> hopefully we can get some of that back. morgan, the fact is this is a minor point perhaps in the grand scheme of things. it doesn't amount to much money when you look at the whole overall debt. but we are giving china money. they are a recipient of u.s. aid. are we being too nice to china? >> i think at the end of the

day china still at this point in time needs the u.s. needs the u.s. more than u.s. needs china. i can be summed up by george soros, wall street's favorite billionaire liberal when he said the dollar is the weakest currency except for all others. that is the point. more than 60%, estimated 60% of chinese reserves are sunk in dollars denominated debt. at the end of day, despite the fiscal foibles it's the safest most liquid asset. the u.s. treasuries. we're even seeing it with the individual chinese consumers coming in and plowing their money in to the luxury real estate. >> steve, this week, once again we saw the dollar fall because of what ben bernanke has been doing. >> that's right. but that is something, david, that can be cured. i think mike makes a good point about chinese holding our debt. if we ever did have a breach and god help us if we do, china is going to have a lot of very nice wallpaper. they depend on our prosperity. we depend on their growing. so let's try to make that work. >> so, rick, as bad as things have gotten -- i'm willing to

agree, it's been a messy, awful looking week. do you think we can turn it around? >> which part of it? >> the whole thing. negotiation, the way we look in the eyes of the world. >> you know what i think? it's now going to be up to sensible conservative republicans to step up and take on the wing of their party that took us in the situation. >> did you ever hear of a guy named steve forbes? >> listen, i don't know where steve has fallen on this, but this is exactly who i'd be looking to. steve looks out for business. business was not served in the last two weeks. steve, what are you doing about this? it's on you and your friends. >> i look out for the american people, which is why i like the flat tax, stable dollar. >> whichs why we love steve forbes and why it's called "forbes on fox." shopping carts full of food left abandoned. why the "cashin' in" crew says what happened at this wal-mart

proves the welfare state is out of control. you can't afford to miss that at the bottom of the hour. but first, right here on "forbes on fox," with more fast food workers living in poverty, unions are pushing to help them out by hiking the minimum wage. they say it would be a help. but would scrapping it altogether actually help more? the forbes flipside is coming next. thank you orville and wilbur... ...amelia... neil and buzz: for teaching us that you can't create the future... by clinging to the past. and with that: you're history. instead of looking behind... delta is looking beyond. 80 thousand of us investing billions... in everything from the best experiences below...

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more folks serving burgers and fries are now living in poverty. one in five accord og to a new

report. this comes as they are demanding minimum wage hikes for the workers. on the flipside, steve, you say they would have a better chance of success if we got rid of minimum wage. explain. >> 85% of the study over the minimum wage found it's a job-killer, not a job-creator. most people making minimum wage are not living in poverty. they have the average family income of $53,000 a year. most people who start with the minimum wage within a year get bumped up because they are getting more skills. the real razor of minimum wage is a prosperous economy. we know how we get that. it's not what this administration is doing. >> morgan, should we get rid of the minimum wage? >> no. steve makes a great point in terms of a strong economy. but when you look at where the minimum wage came from, it came as a reaction to the great depression. we do not have a strong economy, we have stagnant wages across the board and we have consumers' undying devotion to dollar menus. which pinch profits. until you look at the obamacare, high taxes, the

situations that the franchises deal with on a daily basis you won't see the workers' wages rise. >> we have been seeing minimum wage goes up; particularly, in some states more than others and it hasn't helped the situation. more people in poverty. >> if you want higher waims you have to have low wages first. the problem with a minimum wage it's a barrier for those without work experience getting in the workforce. get rid of it. people can get the experience on the way to higher wages. >> rick, that is really the point. we don't want people to stay in the low-wage positions, right? >> no, you don't want them to stay there. but be realistic here. when i was in high school i worked in a fast food restaurant. i didn't have to support a family. it wasn't that important what i make. i used to be in those days it was people like me getting those jobs. today, it's a very different picture. you have people who are much older, who have families, working in these fast food places. you cannot have them working full-time and then have them living under the poverty line.

>> the point is: is minimum wage going to help? it doesn't seem to be helping. >> of course it does. >> it hasn't so far, right, rich? >> it doesn't help at all. here is the thing that rick and morgan forget that. is you can't force an employer to hire somebody. so if the wage goes up, there will be fewer dollars left to hire people. you know, the -- >> i'm not for the wage going up. >> people might be paid higher but unemployment will go through the roof. >> morgan is not for wage going up. >> i'm not for the wage going up but i'm not for doing away with minimum wage altogether. the bigger issue is you have a bevy of unskilled workers and adulting filling the position. >> we have something to help them. the earned income tax credit. let's not skew the labor markets. help those who need it. >> that is the last word. now that the showdown in d.c. is over, our informers have the stocks ready to pop up.

and we are back with the stock ready to take off now that a d.c. deal is done. home depot, why do you like them? >> this is a surge in the last two years and there is still room to squeeze out returns. pays 2% dividend and analysts have been upgrading it. >> mike, you must use home depot. >> i do. i'll make it personal. i like lowe's better. if i ask for help in home depot they say "go to aisle 27." if i ask for help at lowe's, they take me there. >> to matter where you go you pull out your american express card. you like american express? >> i do. i'll tell you why. they are generating a

tremendous amount of cash and the earnings growth will continue. >> i like amex as well. i am a card holder. one thing to keep an eye on is the total expenses. >> that's it for "forbes on fox." have a great w keep it here. eric bolling and "cashin' in" is next. a freebie free-for-all at wal-mart. food stamp evidences overloading the carts after a computer glitch waved spending limit on the government-issued e.b.t. cards? did they prove it's time to reign in the out-of-control welfare programs? plus, no reasonable expectation of privacy? the shocking words found encoded in the obamacare website that will absolutely blow your mind. and then, lobbing softball questions in the heat of the d.c. showdown. is mainstream media lovefest with the white house while we will never get this number down? "cashin' in," asking the tough questions for you starts right now. hi, everybody, i'm eric bolling. welcome to "cashin' in." the crew this week, wayn