that makes them happy, the more we'll spend on these little guys to make them happy. dcm up 20%. >> john, how can you be a bull? ramon, we love you! the health care grinch about to steal christmas? it is enough to make holiday shoppers sick. the health care sticker price. after all, if you are doling out more for health care because of the new law, something tells me you do not dole out as much on those hickory farms holiday baskets i love next time you're at the mall. so stick a syringe in that tea plug. it looks like the ho-hum holiday might already be processed in. processed in. ok. >> i got it. i got it. >> this is like an introductory course. we have dagen mcdowell, charles

gasparino with us as well. charlie, what do you make of this? >> it's fine. stein, you come in second. >> do you think that this then really does have an effect on holiday sales? >> it's hard to see how it won't. re wag is down. nfidce i wn. maybonlyixpeop sied u t th wou be a sgn of maiv stker op. >> y sa it wasp t 12. thas tr. anthe ment is ildi. ere'no dbt tere' a rt of maisen thcoury. i n't ink tat pple aliz theast ree crit rd rortseot on bt, opleave ed tirards -- t deb wen wn thr nthsn a w. 4 biion. ere'no cfidee inhis econy. noonfince theirecon thi untr and 's relecte. anthisoulde thfinanail thacoff. >> ion'tnow w y dr t corratiobetwn th a a slowwn i holay slesight now. wel let m -- i can it. let me tlyouyou roga goodor nhing [ lahter >> y're payg reor

premms,youillhave to pay le -- opleon'tave ur nd omone >> iamnot ahater. i am telli y -- do you think it will affect holiday sales? yes or no? >> mr. neil, you are speaking out of both ends of your mouth, and here's why. on one hand you're saying that the plan isn't going to work. >> no. all i'm asking, will it impact holiday sales? yes or no? >> no. i don't think so. >> that's all i need to know. dagen? >> yes. >> jeez, what is up with you guys? it's like mutiny. go ahead. >> we had the run of the place when he was in charge. that's why. >> well, because it who are being dropped, have to buy different insurance at higher prices. even if they aren't writing the check right now or right before christmas, they are going to look ahead and say, hey, i have to pull back. i have to adjust. i'm paying x amount more every month for my health insurarance.

i will cut back now. >> we need a behavioral psychologist here. >> all right. adam, what do you think? >> well, i think that charlie -- i hate agreeing with him. but there are bigger factors at play as to whether or not it will be a good or a bad holiday shopping season. far and away the most important factor is how the economy is doing. the botched health care law implementation -- and by the way, neil, he's got you there. you get an e for effort there. but you want to blame everything on obama care. and it could be terrible. and -- >> no, i don't want to blame everything. where do you get that? i've had it with you. i'm done with you. i'm moving on now. i'm moving on to my hollywood buddy, ben stein. for those who are now paying higher premiums or looking to, will it affect what they do this holiday season?

>> yes. i understand the question, counselor. >> thank you. >> i understand the question, your honor. >> all right. >> for those who are contemplating pays more for health insurance and contemplating instead paying less, obviously they will be more cautious. i think the fact that obama care has been a fiasco, a disaster of poor planning and incredibly poor executive leadership, is even more important. it tells people we can't have confident in the people running the government of this country. that has much more to do with shopping in the holiday season than the difference in the premiums. people are scared by it. >> but christm shopping sales, ben. >> yes. it will affect holiday shopping sales, it will. >> has there been any polling on this? i'm sorry to ask the question. there any polling on this? >> on what? >> how do we know any of this? listen, we have a lousy economy. we all -- >> so you're saying you know for a fact that people are -- >> well, people know that -- >> the u.s. retail federation says this will be the weakest --

it's not they are great einsteins, but the weakest season in five years. >> we have a lousy economy. we have a president that wants to raise taxes. obama care, the one thing good for the economy, it's hard to implement. >> what does that have to do with anything? >> we do know for a fact -- >> people can't even sign up for it. >> we do know for a fact that millions of people will lose their individual coverage, and they will have to go out and likely have to buy an insurance policy with a higher premium. and we also do know not just from the retail federation but from morgan stanley, this will be the slowest holiday -- let me finish. you're asking me to do the math, and i'm doing the math for you. >> to contribute it to health care is wrong. >> i know already, not factoring that in, charlie, it's the slowest holiday season in five years. >> but what does that have to do with health care? ben stein hit the nail on

the head. there's a malaise. that's the bottom line. there's a malaise, and we know it. this is 1979, 1980 all over again. so it does not help. that's why i said there are a lot of nails in this coffin. that's why i said it was the final one. >> except that there's not massive inflation. there isn't an energy crisis. i mean, you know, you can -- again, i think you're presuming your own political interest in wanting that malaise to happen. >> i don't want it to happen. i want the economy to do great. i want the stock market to go straight up, and i want to make a lot of money. for my life, if the economy was booming, i would be so happy. and i think everybody here would be. i don't know wants -- >> the stock market goes straight up, and the economy is still in the tank. >> aren't you happy the stock market is going straight up under this malaise of obama care? >> it has no impact on the real economy. >> i will tell you this much. i think the global economy is much more responsible for stocks

going up than what's happening here in our backyard. >> to wrap this up -- ben, finish it. >> charlie kept saying is there polling. yes, there's an incredible amount of polling, charlie. consumer confidence is down. the economy is down as well. and there's a lot of polls saying that consumer confidence is down has to do with the leadership. >> isn't that predating this? >> with all due respect, all we can do is predate history. we can't have polling that's the future. >> but we had the lousy economy before this. >> you keep saying "this." people have been notified by their insurance company for weeks prior that they were losing their coverage and premiums were going up. this could have very well have been factored in -- >> it could. >> i'm so hate you all. i'm doing a monologue for the next 20 minutes. >> we're not looking into a crystal ball and assessing. we're putting two and two together. it is not eight. >> if my aunt had x, she'd be my

uncle. >> what? >> meanwhile, forget about what this health care does to shoppers next month. we might get a first clue how they're feeling next month in some key elections next tuesday. if it matters to you, it matters to us, which is why we are live covering all ofhis at 8:00 p.m. on fox business for as long as it takes, just as the polls are close are in virginia, a very crucial governor's race. and in new jersey in what could determine a certain governor's next race. and in new york city, where a sharp turn to the left could change the financial industry as we know it. even there, you guys would have to agree with me. we're on them all, with some of the biggest names of all, like we've been for every convention and rally, caucus and primary from the very beginning of this network. if it is about your economic future, no one is hotter on it than fox business. and it all kicks off next tuesday. be there, invest wisely. your time really is your money. but up here next, first it was harry.

now it is nancy. they say they need more taxes. but get this. they have already got a record amount from all of us in taxes. .

now back to neil cavuto. for all of your news headlines, log on to foxnews.com. >> we should go back to the table to reduce the deficit, grow the economy, create jobs, end the sequester. revenue needs to be on the table. >> revenue needs to be on the table. and they have a record amount of

revenue. i guess you might want to check out this number. asking taxpayers for a higher number when the government has brought in a record amount of taxes as things stand, $2.8 trillion this past year. half of that was from just charles payne. what do you think, charles? we need more money? >> thank you, charles. >> this thing, this great utopian country of fairness in the sky, costs a lot of money. it costs a lot of money. if we're going to take a u.s. congressman and subsidize his health care insurance because he a's 33-year-old man, it costs a lot of money. but here's the thing. it's an insatiable appetite. the more you feed the beast, the more the beast wants. that is ultimately killing this country. killing it. >> that has nothing to do with what i asked, but i'm afraid to counter what you just said. for you it's another issue. >> well, his point being that that's the last thing we need to

do. >> spending? >> yeah. but i think, you know, i kind of agree with ben sometimes about the tax issue. the problem is, we do need higher taxes to pay for what we built. i agree that if we're going to keep what we built, we need to raise taxes. but the problem is, every time we raise taxes, it goes to big and bigger. we are not paying down the deficit. >> the money not the issue then. money is not the problem. how we spend the money is the problem. >> if you want to raise revenue, you want to grow the economy faster than it's already growing. we talked about holiday sales. there really were some numbers that are expected in the next few months. that's what they need to focus on. you don't raise taxes in an environment where you need to grow the economy faster than it's already growing. >> adam, they look at that record amount of revenue and realize by raising taxes you get more revenue in the near term. so you're for that, get more revenue, right? >> well, first of all, we're sort of doing a disservice in

just showing the revenue as an absolute number. it's only interesting or relevant in comparison with what our expenses are. that's how a business would look at it, how the government would look at it. and it has to be on table. that's what pelosi said. >> remember during the shutdown, there's no room to cut? remember that harry reid said in the sena, americans are all for raising taxes? they like the idea of raising taxes in this environment in there's a cluelessness as to what's going on. yeah, you can argue that the percentage of gdp, you should be raising more taxes. but come on, when is enough enough? >> i don't think that anyone wants to raise taxes. >> they just want to raise taxes on rich people. >> let him make his point. >> my point is, you know, that you're either for deficit reduction or you're not for deficit reduction. if you're for it, then revenue has to be on the table. that's the simple statement.

>> ben stain, rein, revenue has on the table? >> you might as well say that because tax is $2.7 ga jillion dollars. there's no meaning to a number without saying the other side on the balance sheet. we need to raise taxes. you have to raise taxes. >> we have two big blocs in this country. one wants a lot of entitlement. one wants lower taxes. they have to be meet in the middle. there has to be cuts in entitlements, and there has to be higher taxes where you live. >> you have said in the past if you're not going to cut spending, then the only other solution is to raise taxes. what i'm wondering is the more we talk freely about voluntary tax hikes before we address entitlement reform or the big

spending issues, we're never going to get around to the big spending issues. and there's a limit to how much you can tax people, isn't there? >> well, there's not much of a limit. we had tax rates of 91% during world war ii and during a large part of the 1950s on the highest income tax pairs. what we need to do is have a serious dialogue about grown-up things about -- >> but we don't. >> how many times have we raised taxes when they didn't cut? there's never been entitlement reform. it's a one-way street all the time. >> nancy pelosi said this, that revenue needs to be on the table in relation to discussions to soften the sequester cuts. >> of course. >> so the democrats are trying to soften those automatic spending cuts, and at the same time raise taxes. they don't cut spending as much and raise taxes. it's crazy. >> the last time we had a serious consideration of

entitlement reform was simpson-bowles. and president obama turned the other way. >> adam talked about a business analogy. a business doesn't say we're going to spend $2 million this year, and then we'll figure out what we'll take in. first you figure out how much you're going to take in, and then you figure out how much you're going to spend. we do it the opposite way. there is a limit to taxing. when people talk about 90%, that affected like two people. we're talking about people making $200,000. this tax pinch does have to come to an end at this point. >> in the 1950s, how many people made $200,000? it's kind of a ridiculous comparison. >> how many people made that much money? >> that doesn't matter. at one point, well-to-do people felt a sense of responsibility. now they don't. >> the same people -- do you compare $1,000 today to $1,000

in the 1950s? you can't do that. >> they could afford to pay more taxes. my friend, you just seem to be attaching patriotism to how much someone is willing to pay to the unit states government. are you more patriotic paying 91% than you are paying 40%? >> no. but i think you're more patriotic if you're willing to pay for a government that defends you. >> all right. are you living better by working less? a group is now saying that a 30-hour mandatory work week will make all workers healthier. the gang at forbes say that will only bring misery to america. that at the top of the hour. up next,

>> it's meant for border agents. >> you have to admire the ingenuity. >> no, actually i don't admire that at all. >> it's been going on for years. >> but that's disgusting that we say that. even computer jockeys who are sitting in a room making personal calls just to collect overtime. >> not to pick on the homeland security people, new york city cops have been doing this for years. padding their overtime to get more money.

it's an old trick. >> well, you guys are unpat iraq. you don -- unpatriotic you don't want to pay for that. >> ben stein, what do you make of this latest development? >> i don't think it's a big new huge deal. this is something that civil servants have always done. and people are always trying to get more money for their work. and officials of banks and investment banks are doing the same thing. people are greedy animals. and they are going to steal where they can. that's how some people are. >> beyond that, everybody at homeland security knew it was going on and tried to recruit people using this little bowl of candy. >> dagen, you seem upset about it. >> i am. >> your thoughts? >> people are greedy, and big institutns enable that greediness. it's not shocking that an organization like the u.s. government with millions of people would do the sorts of things that corporations and other, you know, organizations do. >> isn't it nice that we're playing it fair and balanced?

>> the banks are the greedy ones. >> the companies that i have worked for in my career would never have let this happen. if it was going on, they would have cracked down on it.it. >> outrage. >> did you know? >> really? >> charles, want to thank you, my friend. a lot more coming up. stocks are still rocking, hitting new all-time highs this past week. hitting new all-time highs this pwhen we made our commitment to the gulf, bp had two big goals:

help the gulf recover and learn from what happened so we could be a better, safer energy company. i can tell you - safety is at the heart of everything we do. we've added cutting-edge technology, like a new deepwater well cap and a state-of-the-art monitoring center, whe experts watch over all drilling activity twenty-four-seven. and we're sharing what we've learned, so we can all produce energy more safely. our commitment has never been stronger.

stocks set to take the markets to new highs. charles? >> office depot, this company is turning it around. like it a lot. >> office depot, adam, what do you think? >> i don't like that it's expensive and a company like that ought to pay a dividend. those are the risks i would play. >> what are you doing these days? >> well, not doing it but a company i look at that i like is workday. it's a new fangled software companies but it focuses on the fortune 1,000 which is unusual for companies like that. >> in what way? >> it provides human resources software. >> gotcha. ben, what do you make of that? >> i don't know a damn thing about it and i assume that nobody else does, either. so i don't care one way or the other, frankly. >> lovely. >> that's why they have you as a guest. >> what do you like? >> roll the dice in vegas. at least there's the pretty girls. i like hormel. hormel is in the business of people like eating bacon and

eating sausage. it's a business that's going to be around forever. >> full circle. got back to processed meat. guys, thank you very, very much. we continue on fox. access to healthcare.gov has been a misably frustrating experience for way too many americans. >> a lot of people would say that's a a understatement. problems still plaguing the obama website but health care and the internet are working together in the private sector. these doctors posting their prices on personal websites for health services. patients say it works great. so is this proof the private sector does a heck of a lot better job than the government does? hi, everybody. welcome. let's go in focus with john, rich, elizabeth mcdonald, mike, rick, and sabrina schaeffer. so, john, government can't do the alth care on the internet but the private